Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina

cheemers

Sahidom wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Heal procs will be more OP on mag than damage procs will be on stam.

Don't let the deluded one-trick vested interest magicka crutchers even try and convince you otherwise.

Says a Stamina player? Dodge roll is the best mitigation tool in game and due to various bonuses from Medium armor it’s easy to be used constantly by Stamina players for low cost but maximum efficiency, something heals can never achieve in the same extent. And you barely can’t play around or prevent dodge rolling whereas there are debuffs for less healing. So while Magicka might resort to a healing proc set, Stamina doesn’t have to, because dodge roll carries you through most kinds of damage. Plus, Stamina has at least 20% more Weapon Damage than Magicka has Spell Damage, which makes their procs hit even harder.

Stamina has been favored in PvP for years now and this change just makes the gap worse.

Not just a stam player, I play around 60-40 magicka builds - stam builds. Light armour also gives dodge cost reduction, and there's even a specific cp star that reduces dodge cost with a damage shield active, so not sure where you're even going with this. Magicka can shield AND dodge AND heal. And spell pen has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread so I'm not going to reiterate.

It's funny how the people who accuse others of being "just stam players" also demonstrate the largest and most obvious pro-magicka bias.

One problem with the LA benefits is the penalties are pretty stiff in PVP when Stamina is common, and you simply cannot be a glass cannon in PVP without being a "thank you" one shot kill.

It's far more difficult to stack spell damage to 6.5k, is it possible, absolutely and w/o normal trial buffs. However, you probably won't be wearing LA to off-set all the penalties for going deep into stacking spell damage. This is one concern when medium armor freely gains +10% WD which sort of balance itself out between light and medium armor damage; yet when the two are side by side, Stamina users have an advantage to reaching 6.5k weapon damage to access full damage on proc sets. That's where magic builds that use proc sets are at a numerical disadvantage.

Adjust the spell damage requirement down by 10% and it'd be a closer pair up.

Why are people only focusing on damaging procs? Magicka builds have an easier time stacking max stat and therefore have much stronger healing proc set tooltips, which are also incidentally scaling with the same stat pool that increases your shield size. Should I be making multiple threads arguing that stamina builds can't easily hit 40k max stamina therefore they will never be able to compete in survivability with magicka builds running Earthgore and Hitis and Winters Respite? And remember, even if you can't go full light for a magicka build, you'll likely still be running at least a few light pieces, therefore even though you don't have the same showstopper tooltips on your damage procs, your extra spell pen is boosting your REAL damage all the same.

Look at the specific targeted nerfs to stamina proc sets in this update - VMA 2h and unleashed terror both got large reductions. Some of the most threatening stam proc sets have been adjusted already. A few weeks into the patch, it will become obvious that high magicka stacking players with cross-healing proc sets will be very difficult to burst down, and stamina will not have comparable survivability options. Yet all people can seem to grasp at this stage is "oh no, some stamina proc tooltips look scary with their big numbers". Shortsighted is what it is.

Jayroo

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I had been on the other side of this but proc sets are completely dead now for non-optimized Magicka players and groups.

If you don't have Major Courage, Minor Courage, and Powerful Assault in your composition you have no hope of ever reaching the cap.

You didn't know they would overkill this nerf?? ITS LITERALLY ALL THEY DO.

I even made a post BEFORE the notes came out saying this

neferpitou73

Jayroo wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I had been on the other side of this but proc sets are completely dead now for non-optimized Magicka players and groups.

If you don't have Major Courage, Minor Courage, and Powerful Assault in your composition you have no hope of ever reaching the cap.

You didn't know they would overkill this nerf?? ITS LITERALLY ALL THEY DO.

I even made a post BEFORE the notes came out saying this

Now, come on. Let's give them some credit...I mean, they also insanely over-buff things that then necessitate insane nerfs in the future

Anyron

cheemers wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Heal procs will be more OP on mag than damage procs will be on stam.

Don't let the deluded one-trick vested interest magicka crutchers even try and convince you otherwise.

Says a Stamina player? Dodge roll is the best mitigation tool in game and due to various bonuses from Medium armor it’s easy to be used constantly by Stamina players for low cost but maximum efficiency, something heals can never achieve in the same extent. And you barely can’t play around or prevent dodge rolling whereas there are debuffs for less healing. So while Magicka might resort to a healing proc set, Stamina doesn’t have to, because dodge roll carries you through most kinds of damage. Plus, Stamina has at least 20% more Weapon Damage than Magicka has Spell Damage, which makes their procs hit even harder.

Stamina has been favored in PvP for years now and this change just makes the gap worse.

Not just a stam player, I play around 60-40 magicka builds - stam builds. Light armour also gives dodge cost reduction, and there's even a specific cp star that reduces dodge cost with a damage shield active, so not sure where you're even going with this. Magicka can shield AND dodge AND heal. And spell pen has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread so I'm not going to reiterate.

It's funny how the people who accuse others of being "just stam players" also demonstrate the largest and most obvious pro-magicka bias.

One problem with the LA benefits is the penalties are pretty stiff in PVP when Stamina is common, and you simply cannot be a glass cannon in PVP without being a "thank you" one shot kill.

It's far more difficult to stack spell damage to 6.5k, is it possible, absolutely and w/o normal trial buffs. However, you probably won't be wearing LA to off-set all the penalties for going deep into stacking spell damage. This is one concern when medium armor freely gains +10% WD which sort of balance itself out between light and medium armor damage; yet when the two are side by side, Stamina users have an advantage to reaching 6.5k weapon damage to access full damage on proc sets. That's where magic builds that use proc sets are at a numerical disadvantage.

Adjust the spell damage requirement down by 10% and it'd be a closer pair up.

Why are people only focusing on damaging procs? Magicka builds have an easier time stacking max stat and therefore have much stronger healing proc set tooltips, which are also incidentally scaling with the same stat pool that increases your shield size. Should I be making multiple threads arguing that stamina builds can't easily hit 40k max stamina therefore they will never be able to compete in survivability with magicka builds running Earthgore and Hitis and Winters Respite? And remember, even if you can't go full light for a magicka build, you'll likely still be running at least a few light pieces, therefore even though you don't have the same showstopper tooltips on your damage procs, your extra spell pen is boosting your REAL damage all the same.

Look at the specific targeted nerfs to stamina proc sets in this update - VMA 2h and unleashed terror both got large reductions. Some of the most threatening stam proc sets have been adjusted already. A few weeks into the patch, it will become obvious that high magicka stacking players with cross-healing proc sets will be very difficult to burst down, and stamina will not have comparable survivability options. Yet all people can seem to grasp at this stage is "oh no, some stamina proc tooltips look scary with their big numbers". Shortsighted is what it is.

If i have to choose what to use, damage will always win vs healing. There is only few healing proc sets that are as much strong as damage variant.

Healing sets are also very useful to you when you get ganked by someone with 3 procsets.

FrancisCrawford

irstarkey57 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

The caps were already insane for anyone who isn't a freaking min/max power gamer, and they made it worse. Flipping stupidest thing ever. Ruining one of the most fun things to play with in the game - proc sets - and for what? For flipping WHAT exactly!?

I've never gotten vapid angry at balance changes in this game. But this is total $#@*#. It ruins like all of my characters. So I'm taking them home and leaving. $#@% this $#@%.

Every parse I've seen is close to the spell damage cap, on live, and as a GM I see a lot of parses...

Should be easy to hit in content with an optimized group, maybe not so easy to hit on the dummy.

It’s more of an issue for pvp.

And for non-elite PvEers, especially in dungeons or solo.

sarahthes wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

The caps were already insane for anyone who isn't a freaking min/max power gamer, and they made it worse. Flipping stupidest thing ever. Ruining one of the most fun things to play with in the game - proc sets - and for what? For flipping WHAT exactly!?

I've never gotten vapid angry at balance changes in this game. But this is total $#@*#. It ruins like all of my characters. So I'm taking them home and leaving. $#@% this $#@%.

Every parse I've seen is close to the spell damage cap, on live, and as a GM I see a lot of parses...

Should be easy to hit in content with an optimized group, maybe not so easy to hit on the dummy.

Do you spend a lot of time looking at parses of casual players' builds for Groupfinder PUGs and solo arenas?

If so, why?
If not, your input isn't relevant to the floor-lowering problem.

FrancisCrawford

Gilvoth wrote: »

this threads request, is asking for an unfair advantage in pvp for magicka builds.
the devs set the numbers in fairness and your asking for those numbers to give higher damage to magicka users builds.
i vote No, and, i hope and pray the request being asked here in this thread will not happen.

Right.

The request should have been to base the scaling on Spell Power + 10.5 * Max Magicka, and the stamina build equivalent.

That said, ZoS should just make everybody's lives easier by changing the approximate 10.5 to an exact 10.0 across the board.

Lughlongarm

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

this threads request, is asking for an unfair advantage in pvp for magicka builds.
the devs set the numbers in fairness and your asking for those numbers to give higher damage to magicka users builds.
i vote No, and, i hope and pray the request being asked here in this thread will not happen.

Right.

The request should have been to base the scaling on Spell Power + 10.5 * Max Magicka, and the stamina build equivalent.

That said, ZoS should just make everybody's lives easier by changing the approximate 10.5 to an exact 10.0 across the board.

True. ZOS have a proven formula for skill damage scale that works great for many years now. Not sure why they need a new system for proc sets. They actually never explained the reason for splitting proc damage scaling with SD/WD and proc healing with Magicka/Stamina. Perhaps there is something I'm missing here.

However, 7.2 changes will probably get the job done regardless.

Elo106

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

this threads request, is asking for an unfair advantage in pvp for magicka builds.
the devs set the numbers in fairness and your asking for those numbers to give higher damage to magicka users builds.
i vote No, and, i hope and pray the request being asked here in this thread will not happen.

Right.

The request should have been to base the scaling on Spell Power + 10.5 * Max Magicka, and the stamina build equivalent.

That said, ZoS should just make everybody's lives easier by changing the approximate 10.5 to an exact 10.0 across the board.

This is what people have been suggesting right after proc scaling became a thing. I wish Zos would have just added a dev comment explaining their take. Dont they know of the difference in damage scaling between mag and stam? Or do they want procs nerfed only on mag toons?

Scaling Procs like skills would be a good solution and than make them 80% as effective as skills. Turning Procs into automatic skills that are slightly weaker than real skills.

GrimTheReaper45

This really does need more work before this goes live. The required spell damage needs to be lowered and there needs to be a cap on how high these things can scale from weapon damage.

Wuuffyy

Love how we just ignore spell pen and the fact a common armor type takes up to 7% more damage, lol.

fred4

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Love how we just ignore spell pen and the fact a common armor type takes up to 7% more damage, lol.

That's because mauls provide 3K something pen and are meta for stamina builds, but not really for magicka builds, the majority of which use staves. While destro staves provide a %damage bonus, I'm not sure that applies to procs. Mauls also have slightly higher stats than staves that will buff procs.

Heavy armor may take extra magicka damage, but light armor takes extra physical damage and, again, has worse armor stats. Then we have the option of running Pierce Armor, which both archetypes can do, but which I would also say suits stamina builds a little better. If you factor that in, we're roughly at parity for penetration.

Finally there is the pesky thing that magicka builds tend to benefit more from magicka than spell damage in order to get higher shields or because they combine class buffs with Inner Light. This isn't quite the same anymore, since the 20% boost from CP is gone, but stacking magicka over spell damage is still the way to go for sorc and some builds on other magicka specs.

IMO the average magicka build does not push spell damage as high as the average stamina build. Not talking about outliers, but real, viable builds that play well. As The Real Godzilla on YouTube pointed out, magicka builds tend to run Sugar Skulls, rather than a regen food, in order to get a big enough stamina pool for break free and the odd roll dodge. I believe their skills are also, still, more expensive than comparable stamina skills. This means that a typical magicka build has to find sustain from something other than their food and has to find more of it. This indirectly gimps spell damage.

If you've ever tried a hybrid, you'll know that sustain is not that easy when pulling from two pools. Magicka specs are arguably all slight hybrids in PvP. They need to manage their stamina in addition to their magicka, otherwise they die to CCs. While a stamina build may choose to invest in the opposite stat, possibly for very good reasons (Cloak and Shadow Image come to mind), they do not strictly have to do that. One way to push your weapon damage on a stamina build is to build such that you get by with base magicka regen. Magicka builds don't really have that option. They typically need to invest in their stamina pool or some stamina sustain.

I don't want to overstate any one factor, but all of this adds up. I hope my explanation is in the ballpark. I'm just trying to explain what many of us know to be an empirical fact.

Wuuffyy

fred4 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Love how we just ignore spell pen and the fact a common armor type takes up to 7% more damage, lol.

That's because mauls provide 3K something pen and are meta for stamina builds, but not really for magicka builds, the majority of which use staves. While destro staves provide a %damage bonus, I'm not sure that applies to procs. Mauls also have slightly higher stats than staves that will buff procs.

Heavy armor may take extra magicka damage, but light armor takes extra physical damage and, again, has worse armor stats. Then we have the option of running Pierce Armor, which both archetypes can do, but which I would also say suits stamina builds a little better. If you factor that in, we're roughly at parity for penetration.

Finally there is the pesky thing that magicka builds tend to benefit more from magicka than spell damage in order to get higher shields or because they combine class buffs with Inner Light. This isn't quite the same anymore, since the 20% boost from CP is gone, but stacking magicka over spell damage is still the way to go for sorc and some builds on other magicka specs.

IMO the average magicka build does not push spell damage as high as the average stamina build. Not talking about outliers, but real, viable builds that play well. As The Real Godzilla on YouTube pointed out, magicka builds tend to run Sugar Skulls, rather than a regen food, in order to get a big enough stamina pool for break free and the odd roll dodge. I believe their skills are also, still, more expensive than comparable stamina skills. This means that a typical magicka build has to find sustain from something other than their food and has to find more of it. This indirectly gimps spell damage.

If you've ever tried a hybrid, you'll know that sustain is not that easy when pulling from two pools. Magicka specs are arguably all slight hybrids in PvP. They need to manage their stamina in addition to their magicka, otherwise they die to CCs. While a stamina build may choose to invest in the opposite stat, possibly for very good reasons (Cloak and Shadow Image come to mind), they do not strictly have to do that. One way to push your weapon damage on a stamina build is to build such that you get by with base magicka regen. Magicka builds don't really have that option. They typically need to invest in their stamina pool or some stamina sustain.

I don't want to overstate any one factor, but all of this adds up. I hope my explanation is in the ballpark. I'm just trying to explain what many of us know to be an empirical fact.

We are talking armor, mag can use those same weapons to buff proc sets.

You also have sets, for example, that give you the equivalent of 900 spell damage after buffs for 4 seconds on a 2pc.

Anyron

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Love how we just ignore spell pen and the fact a common armor type takes up to 7% more damage, lol.

That's because mauls provide 3K something pen and are meta for stamina builds, but not really for magicka builds, the majority of which use staves. While destro staves provide a %damage bonus, I'm not sure that applies to procs. Mauls also have slightly higher stats than staves that will buff procs.

Heavy armor may take extra magicka damage, but light armor takes extra physical damage and, again, has worse armor stats. Then we have the option of running Pierce Armor, which both archetypes can do, but which I would also say suits stamina builds a little better. If you factor that in, we're roughly at parity for penetration.

Finally there is the pesky thing that magicka builds tend to benefit more from magicka than spell damage in order to get higher shields or because they combine class buffs with Inner Light. This isn't quite the same anymore, since the 20% boost from CP is gone, but stacking magicka over spell damage is still the way to go for sorc and some builds on other magicka specs.

IMO the average magicka build does not push spell damage as high as the average stamina build. Not talking about outliers, but real, viable builds that play well. As The Real Godzilla on YouTube pointed out, magicka builds tend to run Sugar Skulls, rather than a regen food, in order to get a big enough stamina pool for break free and the odd roll dodge. I believe their skills are also, still, more expensive than comparable stamina skills. This means that a typical magicka build has to find sustain from something other than their food and has to find more of it. This indirectly gimps spell damage.

If you've ever tried a hybrid, you'll know that sustain is not that easy when pulling from two pools. Magicka specs are arguably all slight hybrids in PvP. They need to manage their stamina in addition to their magicka, otherwise they die to CCs. While a stamina build may choose to invest in the opposite stat, possibly for very good reasons (Cloak and Shadow Image come to mind), they do not strictly have to do that. One way to push your weapon damage on a stamina build is to build such that you get by with base magicka regen. Magicka builds don't really have that option. They typically need to invest in their stamina pool or some stamina sustain.

I don't want to overstate any one factor, but all of this adds up. I hope my explanation is in the ballpark. I'm just trying to explain what many of us know to be an empirical fact.

We are talking armor, mag can use those same weapons to buff proc sets.

You also have sets, for example, that give you the equivalent of 900 spell damage after buffs for 4 seconds on a 2pc.

oh right. i will use maul on my sorc. great idea
why should magicka character use STAMINA weapon?

lets remove vigor and then you can use rapid regen instead!

ExistingRug61

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Love how we just ignore spell pen and the fact a common armor type takes up to 7% more damage, lol.

That's because mauls provide 3K something pen and are meta for stamina builds, but not really for magicka builds, the majority of which use staves. While destro staves provide a %damage bonus, I'm not sure that applies to procs. Mauls also have slightly higher stats than staves that will buff procs.

Heavy armor may take extra magicka damage, but light armor takes extra physical damage and, again, has worse armor stats. Then we have the option of running Pierce Armor, which both archetypes can do, but which I would also say suits stamina builds a little better. If you factor that in, we're roughly at parity for penetration.

Finally there is the pesky thing that magicka builds tend to benefit more from magicka than spell damage in order to get higher shields or because they combine class buffs with Inner Light. This isn't quite the same anymore, since the 20% boost from CP is gone, but stacking magicka over spell damage is still the way to go for sorc and some builds on other magicka specs.

IMO the average magicka build does not push spell damage as high as the average stamina build. Not talking about outliers, but real, viable builds that play well. As The Real Godzilla on YouTube pointed out, magicka builds tend to run Sugar Skulls, rather than a regen food, in order to get a big enough stamina pool for break free and the odd roll dodge. I believe their skills are also, still, more expensive than comparable stamina skills. This means that a typical magicka build has to find sustain from something other than their food and has to find more of it. This indirectly gimps spell damage.

If you've ever tried a hybrid, you'll know that sustain is not that easy when pulling from two pools. Magicka specs are arguably all slight hybrids in PvP. They need to manage their stamina in addition to their magicka, otherwise they die to CCs. While a stamina build may choose to invest in the opposite stat, possibly for very good reasons (Cloak and Shadow Image come to mind), they do not strictly have to do that. One way to push your weapon damage on a stamina build is to build such that you get by with base magicka regen. Magicka builds don't really have that option. They typically need to invest in their stamina pool or some stamina sustain.

I don't want to overstate any one factor, but all of this adds up. I hope my explanation is in the ballpark. I'm just trying to explain what many of us know to be an empirical fact.

We are talking armor, mag can use those same weapons to buff proc sets.

You also have sets, for example, that give you the equivalent of 900 spell damage after buffs for 4 seconds on a 2pc.

Also remember that spell resistance is higher on players than physical in a lot of cases, due to spell resistance passive from Breton, dk, Templar and light armour. Plus a light armour user already has less resistance from armour to begin with than a stamina user in medium. All of this means that even when you take into account the pen from light armour, magicka procs still often are mitigated by a similar after pen resistance on average to stamina procs.

Obviously this is only in a pvp context though, not pve (where enemy resistance is equal).

That said, I don’t think there should be separate scaling factors for procs for spell damage and weapon damage -that just seems like a bandaid. Rather I would prefer that they use damage + resource/10.5 like skills. Why? Because if that is the system that has allowed skills to be balanced between stam and mag given the variety of different passives available to both, then surely it would make sense that it should also works for procs. Otherwise, if we start having things that scale with only a subset of the stats, the game will end up going down the path of balancing all the stats individually between stam and mag as the only way to make it balanced, rather than just the combined result. Which seems like undesirable homogenisation.

Benzux

Benzux wrote: »

I like to call myself a casual player. I make my builds fun and enjoyable to play as - because that's the point of video games: to be entertaining. However, I do try to make these builds as powerful as possible, so I can comfortably clear and participate in content harder than questing (so literally everything else) that I also enjoy. Most of my characters are capable of reaching good DPS numbers (and the ones that fall a bit behind I simply need to optimize a little more and upgrade the gear), and my healers/tanks are more than capable of getting through Vet DLC Dungeons when needed. But, none of these builds can be described as "the meta" because everything that is meta is boring, and following a build guide does not make you good at the game. I've managed to land myself in a comfortable position where my characters are both fun to play as, and are strong enough to clear content with little to no difficulty.

The proc set changes proposed make what I've been doing for years much more difficult.

I can somewhat understand where ZoS is coming from with these changes, having witnessed the PvP playerbase whining about proc sets for who knows how long, but the truth is that these changes only affect the non-high end players and others who do not minmax negatively. For minmaxers who already reach the numbers required, there is no change whatsoever, and for everyone else, this is a huge nerf. Separating PvP and PvE balancing would solve so many issues, but that is another topic entirely.

I do also agree with OP in that comparing Weapon Damage numbers and Spell Damage numbers is not fair. I have a spell damage sorcerer build, and I can maybe just about reach over 5k spell damage when fully buffed. Meanwhile, my stamsorc sits on somewhere around 3,5k completely unbuffed, and if I wanted to, I could reach over twice that with relative ease. I don't have access to PTS, so I can't verify if it already is a thing, but making all sets scale off Weapon/Spell Damage or Max Stam/Magicka would help somewhat, since Magicka is easier to stack than Spell Damage. Again, I'm not sure if that is how it already works, but if it is the case for all sets, then that's at least a bit of a relief. Still, nerfing an arguably large part of the playerbase like this instead of finding a way to tone down proc sets in specific situations (like the proposed Battle Spirit change above) is not a good thing.

Coming back to this to mention I remembered my Stamsorc's stats wrong - unbuffed he sits at 4,8k Weapon Damage (and 3,5k spell damage). Meanwhile, the absolute maximum my mag Sorc can reach in terms of Spell Damage is just over 6k - and that is entirely dependent on Blood Frenzy while I have Scathing Mage procced, meaning that for most of a fight, I'd be sitting on just over 5k Spell Damage, only reaching 6k for short bursts (the value also fluctuates a lot, due to Blood Frenzy, but the average is around just over 5k). I'm sure I could pump up the Spell Damage numbers up a little higher if I golded out all of my gear, but my Stamsorc doesn't have all gold gear either, and the item sets I have on him don't directly benefit the visible Weapon Damage number on the stats screen (apart from the one-piece Kena I wear).

So, essentially, Stam characters can passively stack Weapon Damage to be about as high as their Magicka Counterparts can do actively for Spell Damage. If I changed my sets around on the Stamsorc a little bit, reaching over 5k Weapon Damage unbuffed is easy, and it doesn't take many braincells rubbing together to reach well over 7k while buffed. It isn't a fair comparison at all, and I still stand by all my statements.

If sets scaling with max stats is here to stay, the values need to be changed. I like the proposal of using the same formula for sets as is already used on skills (it's quite literally what I was trying to allude to in my previous comment, just put more simply). If ZoS really wants to nerf the top 1% like I've seen people say when confronted with any change, this isn't the way to do it.

GrimTheReaper45

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Love how we just ignore spell pen and the fact a common armor type takes up to 7% more damage, lol.

Reposting from above. This is why the spell pen argument doesnt make sense.

So I have seen a lot of people saying spell pen from light off sets this.

In pve your right up to a point, however it depends on group composition. If you + your group is over 18500 pen then It can be just a waste.

In pvp however this doesnt hold up at all

1)
-Spell pen from 7 light is 6573. In 7 light you also have 7501 Physical resist from that. Stam in 7 heavy get 17298 Spell resist from it. 17298-6573= 10725. Stam in heavy gets 3224 more resist after you subtract the spell pen light gets than the amount mag gets from light. Its also not impossible for Stam to get 5.5-6k in heavy armor, which will be less than live proc sets but will still be a lot more than mag gets from procs in pvp when this goes live.

2
- Stam gets 11199 spell resist from 7 medium. Again mag get 7501 physical resist from light. Stam with Gold sharp weapon (3276) + Major breach (5948)= 9224. They can have mag at 0 physical resist and still have 6-7k weapon damage. Mag in 7 light can get stam in medium to 0 with just adding major breach. However you dont get to pick what the players your fighting is wearing in cyrodil. So mag still has to run the gold sharp weapon for when they are fighting players in heavy. Mag and Stam both end up having to make the exact same investment in stats. However when medium and light are fighting each other they both end up with their opponent having 0 resist but the Stam in medium player is going to have 6-7k weapon damage while the Mag player in light only ends up having 4-5k Spell damage.

neferpitou73

The spell pen argument only works for pve/solo pvp (tho even then I have my doubts) in a pvp group where you are getting % damage multipliers, pen buffs and enemy resistance debuffs, stam is going to win the game of proc damage.

This patch you'll likely see ball groups filled with stamdens running VD, because at this point why the heck not?

Sahidom

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I had been on the other side of this but proc sets are completely dead now for non-optimized Magicka players and groups.

If you don't have Major Courage, Minor Courage, and Powerful Assault in your composition you have no hope of ever reaching the cap.

I agree with you here with the caveat this applies to those who built their characters with more than one dmg/heal proc sets with off-stats i.e. one requiring scaling to SD/WD and magic/stamina resource pools.  This comes to your point about character players that don't have those common trial buffs will struggle.

As I played around on the PTS, it is possible to reliably maintain 6.1k spell damage for those proc sets scaling to SD/WD; but this comes with another caveat, the player character is limited to monster helms or arena weapons.  After some testing, it is possible to add another dmg proc set that scales to SD/WD with those trial buffs available.  These tests included having one mythic item slot available.

However, the player character sustain will be the hardest hit.  Stamina does have an easier time numerically reaching 6.5k on a consistent basis without the sustain loss, this is part +2% WD per medium armor piece worn and extra perk option from 2H/DW passives that offer an extra WD using swords; whereas, staves don't, in addition, potent nirn staves have a lower damage score than their 2H counter parts.

The whole light armor has penetration argument is mute and unrelated when magic builds need to numerically reach 6.5k spell damage; meanwhile, Stamina has better options to stacking WD from armor weight, gear sets and weapon choices.

There are some good suggestions to help, such as replacing pen or WD benefits from light and medium armor with a +SD(WD)/Penetration per piece (both light/medium) sugestion and ZOS could level staves to have the same stats as 2H (normal and with potent nirn)

MrZeDark

Mag natively gets pen, stam does not.
The meta is mag, because of the damage mag pumps vs stam and the ease of buffing one direction.

I play mag, and support stam getting an edge - anywhere plz, for the love of molag.

MrZeDark

Oh and ps - my avg spell dmg in trials is 14k…. So..

fred4

MrZeDark wrote: »

Mag natively gets pen, stam does not.
The meta is mag, because of the damage mag pumps vs stam and the ease of buffing one direction.

I play mag, and support stam getting an edge - anywhere plz, for the love of molag.

Careful now. Casual readers (ZOS) may not get sarcasm.

MrZeDark

fred4 wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

Mag natively gets pen, stam does not.
The meta is mag, because of the damage mag pumps vs stam and the ease of buffing one direction.

I play mag, and support stam getting an edge - anywhere plz, for the love of molag.

Careful now. Casual readers (ZOS) may not get sarcasm.

No sarcasm. Stam as a whole needs work that makes them more viable for end game Content. Give them something.

I mean.. I can use daggers on my mag, and do more dmg. What a slap..

Tannus15

MrZeDark wrote: »

Oh and ps - my avg spell dmg in trials is 14k…. So..

uh huh
sure

MrZeDark

Tannus15 wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

Oh and ps - my avg spell dmg in trials is 14k…. So..

uh huh
sure

I break well over 50 stacks with simmering, so yea.. add the trial modifiers and my own self buffs. My highest has been 17.2k

MrZeDark

Here is just a parse..

No weapon dmg ench on this one and running bt instead of infused for my recordable sp.

Jayroo

MrZeDark wrote: »

Here is just a parse..

No weapon dmg ench on this one and running bt instead of infused for my recordable sp.

10k spell damage with every buff in the game and simmering cheese. what about solo/dungeon runners

Tannus15

@MrZeDark you're in the less than 0.1% of people who are running simmering in trials. The vast majority of even the end game community are not running simmering vamp builds. Because they die.

MrZeDark

Jayroo wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

Here is just a parse..

No weapon dmg ench on this one and running bt instead of infused for my recordable sp.

10k spell damage with every buff in the game and simmering cheese. what about solo/dungeon runners

I run simmering everywhere, vVH and MA I usually am around 9k. Dungeons burn too fast can’t stack much before things just die- usually around 8k

MrZeDark

Tannus15 wrote: »

@MrZeDark you're in the less than 0.1% of people who are running simmering in trials. The vast majority of even the end game community are not running simmering vamp builds. Because they die.

Oh I agree my Build isn’t run by many. As most people can’t deal with the incoming dmg while doing it.

Takes awhile to get used to every content with it, and memorizing every incoming dmg.

But I see most non vamps in optimized groups breaking 7k in the past few months. Being in optimized groups really helps a ton as well - but should sorta be the goal of organized runs, to be more optimized.

MrZeDark

My argument here is, they don’t care.

They need to balance for clowns like me, PvP, and what is viable in unoptimizable Content (VH, MA). There is a lot to balance beyond our desires of a power curve with in the content we do and subjectively argue - needs to be approved within.