Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina

Benzux

I like to call myself a casual player. I make my builds fun and enjoyable to play as - because that's the point of video games: to be entertaining. However, I do try to make these builds as powerful as possible, so I can comfortably clear and participate in content harder than questing (so literally everything else) that I also enjoy. Most of my characters are capable of reaching good DPS numbers (and the ones that fall a bit behind I simply need to optimize a little more and upgrade the gear), and my healers/tanks are more than capable of getting through Vet DLC Dungeons when needed. But, none of these builds can be described as "the meta" because everything that is meta is boring, and following a build guide does not make you good at the game. I've managed to land myself in a comfortable position where my characters are both fun to play as, and are strong enough to clear content with little to no difficulty.

The proc set changes proposed make what I've been doing for years much more difficult.

I can somewhat understand where ZoS is coming from with these changes, having witnessed the PvP playerbase whining about proc sets for who knows how long, but the truth is that these changes only affect the non-high end players and others who do not minmax negatively. For minmaxers who already reach the numbers required, there is no change whatsoever, and for everyone else, this is a huge nerf. Separating PvP and PvE balancing would solve so many issues, but that is another topic entirely.

I do also agree with OP in that comparing Weapon Damage numbers and Spell Damage numbers is not fair. I have a spell damage sorcerer build, and I can maybe just about reach over 5k spell damage when fully buffed. Meanwhile, my stamsorc sits on somewhere around 3,5k completely unbuffed, and if I wanted to, I could reach over twice that with relative ease. I don't have access to PTS, so I can't verify if it already is a thing, but making all sets scale off Weapon/Spell Damage or Max Stam/Magicka would help somewhat, since Magicka is easier to stack than Spell Damage. Again, I'm not sure if that is how it already works, but if it is the case for all sets, then that's at least a bit of a relief. Still, nerfing an arguably large part of the playerbase like this instead of finding a way to tone down proc sets in specific situations (like the proposed Battle Spirit change above) is not a good thing.

ANewHand

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Arieswar13 wrote: »

Spell pen.

Extra spell penetration is balanced in PvP with passive bonuses to Spell Resistance that Templars, Dragonknights, Bretons and Light Armor get.

Magicka builds often get more benefits from Max Magicka due to passives that increase it (Sorcs, NBs, Wardens, Mages Guild Passive & Inner Light) and sets like Ancient Grace and Necropotence. The opportunity cost of trying to stack Spell Damage is much bigger.

Stamina Builds get Weapon Damage bonuses from Medium Armor, Fighters Guild Passive, Dual Wield Passive, One-Handed and Shield Passive, easy access to Major Brutality in a high utility skill (Forward Momentum) and get additional penetration from the Sundered status effect, while most enemy players will have lower Physical Resistance.

Destruction staff may have a 10% Spell Resistance mitigation that applies only to Destro Abilities, but that will only be as strong as the Mace bonus (3300 Armor Pen) against Armor-capped players. Meanwhile, the Mace bonus applies to all damage sources and is significantly stronger against non-heavy armored players.

jaws343

ANewHand wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Arieswar13 wrote: »

Spell pen.

Extra spell penetration is balanced in PvP with passive bonuses to Spell Resistance that Templars, Dragonknights, Bretons and Light Armor get.

Magicka builds often get more benefits from Max Magicka due to passives that increase it (Sorcs, NBs, Wardens, Mages Guild Passive & Inner Light) and sets like Ancient Grace and Necropotence. The opportunity cost of trying to stack Spell Damage is much bigger.

Stamina Builds get both Medium Armor and Fighters Guild bonuses to Weapon Damage, easy access to Major Brutality in a high utility skill (Forward Momentum) and get additional penetration from the Sundered status effect, while most enemy players will have lower Physical Resistance.

Plus stam builds will inherently do more damage against light armor wearing opponents due to the negative armor effects for wearing light armor.

The_Lex

Next patch PvP meta: Stam builds wearing Caluurion's, Zaan, and back bar Vate staff.

Derra

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Arieswar13 wrote: »

As the title says, Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina builds can stack weapon damage. So do not lump then together. Stamina builds can easily reach over 7k weapon damage. Even in a pve environment, 6300-6400 is pushing the max amount of spell power obtainable. Consider having the adjustments to proc sets scale on a different value of spell power and weapon damage.

To be comparable, it should be closer to the proposed 6574 weapon damage and maybe 5000-5500 spell damage. There is no reason to lump the values together when the magicka and stamina are build to scale differently (armor passives).

Spell pen.

on a per player/build basis this gets counteracted by stamina having virtually exclusive acces to minor breach and maces also providing flat penetration.

Gilvoth

this threads request, is asking for an unfair advantage in pvp for magicka builds.
the devs set the numbers in fairness and your asking for those numbers to give higher damage to magicka users builds.
i vote No, and, i hope and pray the request being asked here in this thread will not happen.

Gilvoth

Starlock wrote: »

The caps were already insane for anyone who isn't a freaking min/max power gamer, and they made it worse. Flipping stupidest thing ever. Ruining one of the most fun things to play with in the game - proc sets - and for what? For flipping WHAT exactly!?

I've never gotten vapid angry at balance changes in this game. But this is total $#@*#. It ruins like all of my characters. So I'm taking them home and leaving. $#@% this $#@%.

that is exactly the truth.
proc sets have now been destroyed basicly.

Sahidom

I agree. Its much harder to stack spell damage.

For an average John Doe to reach 5.6k spell damage takes a combination of either Clever Alchemist, infused jewelry, nirnhold weapons (and staves are still less than 2H weapons), Molag Ken, Masters Staff (multiple spams of Clench), or Blood Frenzy to pull yourself up to this requirement for one proc set scaling to spell damage. But you sacrifice everything else to get remotely 100% of the single proc set;

At this point, you are almost inviting the average John Doe to equip heavy armor at this point since it's all about spell damage. You can get 5.6k and salvage 10k pen wearing heavy armor.

jaws343

Gilvoth wrote: »

this threads request, is asking for an unfair advantage in pvp for magicka builds.
the devs set the numbers in fairness and your asking for those numbers to give higher damage to magicka users builds.
i vote No, and, i hope and pray the request being asked here in this thread will not happen.

It's not really an unfair advantage. The ability to stack to the new Spell/Weapon damage cap is far easier for stam than mag. Try it. Try stacking to 6574 Spell damage. while running a proc damage set. I highly doubt it is possible without basically running a non-viable build. Whereas, stacking to that much Weapon damage is much easier.

ANewHand

Gilvoth wrote: »

this threads request, is asking for an unfair advantage in pvp for magicka builds.
the devs set the numbers in fairness and your asking for those numbers to give higher damage to magicka users builds.
i vote No, and, i hope and pray the request being asked here in this thread will not happen.

Hi, thank you for replying to this thread. Do you have any argument?

[Edit to remove bait]

Firstmep

Cuddler wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Spell pen.

Irrelevant as it is not changing from 29 to 30. Procs are only getting nerfed on Magicka builds. Stamina builds will have the same or higher proc damage as 6500 WD is about average and really easy to exceed.

And a lot of Stam proc sets received significant adjustments, vma 2h 33%, unleashed 44% etc.
This on top of the adjusted scaling, so actually Stam builds got the shaft twice over this patch.
And 6.5k wpd for significantly lower values than on live..
Please go on the pts and see it for yourself.

And spell pen is anything but irrelevant..

Gilvoth

ANewHand wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

this threads request, is asking for an unfair advantage in pvp for magicka builds.
the devs set the numbers in fairness and your asking for those numbers to give higher damage to magicka users builds.
i vote No, and, i hope and pray the request being asked here in this thread will not happen.

Hi, thank you for replying to this thread. Do you have any argument?

because it is an unfair request.
yes, i have seen the counter aurguments in this thread asking for the change and i still maintain the same view.
this threads main request is giving an unfair advantage to magicka builds, and i am asking it not be granted.
and just to be clear as possible "yes, i have seen the counter aurguments"
and i maintain my same view even after seeing the aurguments.

Just for pvp point of view, as i do very little in pve.

ANewHand

Gilvoth wrote: »

because it is an dishonest and unfair request.
yes, i have seen the counter aurguments in this thread...

Thank you for acknowledging having read the arguments, however assuming the intentions (and the dishonesty) of people making mostly factual arguments is a not doing anything positive for this discussion. I'm not saying everyone here is totally impartial and objective but not only you are not bringing anything to the table, you are also antagonizing people.

Please don't troll. Thank you.

If it can make you understand my honesty, I am currently using the UESP builder to plan my new PvP toons and I find it much easier to build a strong proc set character with Stamina builds, while Magicka builds always seem lackluster.

Gilvoth

ANewHand wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

because it is an dishonest and unfair request.
yes, i have seen the counter aurguments in this thread...

Thank you for acknowledging having read the arguments, however assuming the intentions (and the dishonesty) of people making mostly factual arguments is a not an stance I like to condone. I'm not saying everyone here is totally impartial and objective but not only you are not bringing anything to the table, you are also antagonizing people.

Please don't troll. Thank you.

If it can make you understand my honesty, I am currently using the UESP builder to plan my new PvP toons and I find it much easier to build a strong proc set character with Stamina builds, while Magicka builds always seem lackluster.

not dishonest, just unfair and only in pvp as i do very little in pve.
i see your aurgument here as well as earlier and i also see all the others aurguments in this thread.
my input and point of view is only feedback from 1 person, and it usually is overlooked. as i have made many requests in the past 8 years that have been overlooked.

Abyssmol

Arieswar13 wrote: »

As the title says, Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina builds can stack weapon damage. So do not lump then together. Stamina builds can easily reach over 7k weapon damage. Even in a pve environment, 6300-6400 is pushing the max amount of spell power obtainable. Consider having the adjustments to proc sets scale on a different value of spell power and weapon damage.

To be comparable, it should be closer to the proposed 6574 weapon damage and maybe 5000-5500 spell damage. There is no reason to lump the values together when the magicka and stamina are build to scale differently (armor passives).

Don't waste your time. After so many people explaining this simple observation, they just don't get it. And to those who say but, but spell pen. Simply, spell pen is a set number that cannot be amplified by any other stat, just by the number of light armors on your character. In pvp, you would not wear 7 light armor period. On the other hand WPD scales with different percentages, including medium armor. If you have a high WPD and you increase it by x% the result is a higher damage, simple math. But, but spell pen - read again!

Brrrofski

I don't use proc sets so couldn't care less about scaling them.

But I honestly do wonder if people know that the can have more than one character.

This whole magica Vs stam thing is crazy. I have like 6 or 7 classes that I PvP on at any one time. Mix of stam or mag. People are so hell-bent on playing one version of a class and get so upset if something else somewhere else does a little bit of damage more than another thing.

jaws343

Brrrofski wrote: »

I don't use proc sets so couldn't care less about scaling them.

But I honestly do wonder if people know that the can have more than one character.

This whole magica Vs stam thing is crazy. I have like 6 or 7 classes that I PvP on at any one time. Mix of stam or mag. People are so hell-bent on playing one version of a class and get so upset if something else somewhere else does a little bit of damage more than another thing.

I think this misses the point. It isn't that people are locked in to one type of class. It is that a stam builds have a far easier time building for proc damage than mag builds will have. So, as someone who has 18 characters of various classes, both stam and mag, any mag builds I make using procs will always be less effective than their stamina counterparts. It isn't about just playing one class and not adjusting, it is about the lack of equity amongst proc conditions between stam and mag procs on stam and mag characters.

Dagoth_Rac

Nothing should scale exclusively on a single stat. We have had that before and it always leads to overpowered builds and then things have to get redesigned. Shields used to scale exclusively on max magicka, but you ended up with players with 20k health and a 30k Hardened Ward. So now it scales with max magicka but is capped at a percentage of health, and it is hard to stack both max magicka and max health.

If any skill/proc scales on just one stat you run into the same recurring problem. If you give it reasonable numbers for the average player, it becomes super op for players that stack into the single stat. But if you give it reasonable numbers for the players that stack into the single stat, it becomes total garbage for everyone else.

And while there are people who think proc sets should just be banished completely, we recently saw that like 95% of sets in game are technically proc sets. So any problems in the underlying design and scaling of proc sets is going to affect a huge portion of the game.

Plus, if something scales off 4 or 5 stats, those stats are more likely to be balanced (in aggregate) across most builds. A build with high pen might have low crit, or a build with high crit might have low spell/weapon damage, etc. But if they scale on one stat, there will always be certain classes and races and builds that find it much easier to stack that one particular stat.

I don't know why ZOS had to reinvent the wheel with some weird scaling for proc sets unlike anything else in the game. If you want them to scale off stats, scale them off stats the way everything else scales off stats.

GrimTheReaper45

So I have seen a lot of people saying spell pen from light off sets this.

In pve your right up to a point, however it depends on group composition. If you + your group is over 18500 pen then It can be just a waste.

In pvp however this doesnt hold up at all

1)
-Spell pen from 7 light is 6573. In 7 light you also have 7501 Physical resist from that. Stam in 7 heavy get 17298 Spell resist from it. 17298-6573= 10725. Stam in heavy gets 3224 more resist after you subtract the spell pen light gets than the amount mag gets from light. Its also not impossible for Stam to get 5.5-6k in heavy armor, which will be less than live proc sets but will still be a lot more than mag gets from procs in pvp when this goes live.

2
- Stam gets 11199 spell resist from 7 medium. Again mag get 7501 physical resist from light. Stam with Gold sharp weapon (3276) + Major breach (5948)= 9224. They can have mag at 0 physical resist and still have 6-7k weapon damage. Mag in 7 light can get stam in medium to 0 with just adding major breach. However you dont get to pick what the players your fighting is wearing in cyrodil. So mag still has to run the gold sharp weapon for when they are fighting players in heavy. Mag and Stam both end up having to make the exact same investment in stats. However when medium and light are fighting each other they both end up with their opponent having 0 resist but the Stam in medium player is going to have 6-7k weapon damage while the Mag player in light only ends up having 4-5k Spell damage.


I dont really like the rock paper scissors thing they have said theyre going for but even accepting that this still doesnt work because light armor ends up weaker than both medium and heavy when it comes to procs sets.

cheemers

Heal procs will be more OP on mag than damage procs will be on stam.

Don't let the deluded one-trick vested interest magicka crutchers even try and convince you otherwise.

Seraphayel

cheemers wrote: »

Heal procs will be more OP on mag than damage procs will be on stam.

Don't let the deluded one-trick vested interest magicka crutchers even try and convince you otherwise.

Says a Stamina player? Dodge roll is the best mitigation tool in game and due to various bonuses from Medium armor it’s easy to be used constantly by Stamina players for low cost but maximum efficiency, something heals can never achieve in the same extent. And you barely can’t play around or prevent dodge rolling whereas there are debuffs for less healing. So while Magicka might resort to a healing proc set, Stamina doesn’t have to, because dodge roll carries you through most kinds of damage. Plus, Stamina has at least 20% more Weapon Damage than Magicka has Spell Damage, which makes their procs hit even harder.

Stamina has been favored in PvP for years now and this change just makes the gap worse.

Arieswar13

Gilvoth wrote: »

ANewHand wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

this threads request, is asking for an unfair advantage in pvp for magicka builds.
the devs set the numbers in fairness and your asking for those numbers to give higher damage to magicka users builds.
i vote No, and, i hope and pray the request being asked here in this thread will not happen.

Hi, thank you for replying to this thread. Do you have any argument?

because it is an unfair request.
yes, i have seen the counter aurguments in this thread asking for the change and i still maintain the same view.
this threads main request is giving an unfair advantage to magicka builds, and i am asking it not be granted.
and just to be clear as possible "yes, i have seen the counter aurguments"
and i maintain my same view even after seeing the aurguments.

Just for pvp point of view, as i do very little in pve.

How is this an unfair advantage to magicka users? I'll need some data on this because as it stands, there is no magicka build that can utilize a single proc damage set, whereas stam builds (which are already dominant) receive a large damage buff to them.

This also extends to pve where monster sets will be obsolete for magicka if this goes live as is.

The main take away from this thread should actually be, use battle spirit to negate the power of procs in pvp and buff magicka builds who need procs to be relevant (see templar and dk.)

Goregrinder

Susurrus wrote: »

I've never understood the appeal of damage proc sets. Anything I accomplished using them just feels cheap to me as they do damage without any user input.

It's ZOS playing the game for you, which is why some people gravitate towards procs. They need outside assistance to keep up with everyone else who are doing fine on their own.

Canned_Apples

Based on what Ive seen, only super casuals running free damage proc sets and dlc dungeons take forever to complete because of them.

Proc sets were mainly a pvp issue and were only a minor annoyance for group pve content.

The_Lex wrote: »

Next patch PvP meta: Stam builds wearing Caluurion's, Zaan, and back bar Vate staff.

Cleanse, range absorb. Problem solved.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Yet another example of "balance" changes designed with the top 1% in mind. Penetration is getting nerfed, proc sets are getting nerfed for mag, and cp in general is being nerfed for everyone, which is crippling to solo and even four man content players. I am so so sick of everything revolving around "but on the 21 mil" and "in a good trials group comp"... That is NOT realistic to the vast majority of players. And in the vast majority of content. Trials are by far the smallest minority of content, especially veteran trials. These changes upcoming are atrocious for everyone.

cheemers

Seraphayel wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Heal procs will be more OP on mag than damage procs will be on stam.

Don't let the deluded one-trick vested interest magicka crutchers even try and convince you otherwise.

Says a Stamina player? Dodge roll is the best mitigation tool in game and due to various bonuses from Medium armor it’s easy to be used constantly by Stamina players for low cost but maximum efficiency, something heals can never achieve in the same extent. And you barely can’t play around or prevent dodge rolling whereas there are debuffs for less healing. So while Magicka might resort to a healing proc set, Stamina doesn’t have to, because dodge roll carries you through most kinds of damage. Plus, Stamina has at least 20% more Weapon Damage than Magicka has Spell Damage, which makes their procs hit even harder.

Stamina has been favored in PvP for years now and this change just makes the gap worse.

Not just a stam player, I play around 60-40 magicka builds - stam builds. Light armour also gives dodge cost reduction, and there's even a specific cp star that reduces dodge cost with a damage shield active, so not sure where you're even going with this. Magicka can shield AND dodge AND heal. And spell pen has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread so I'm not going to reiterate.

It's funny how the people who accuse others of being "just stam players" also demonstrate the largest and most obvious pro-magicka bias.

Seraphayel

cheemers wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Heal procs will be more OP on mag than damage procs will be on stam.

Don't let the deluded one-trick vested interest magicka crutchers even try and convince you otherwise.

Says a Stamina player? Dodge roll is the best mitigation tool in game and due to various bonuses from Medium armor it’s easy to be used constantly by Stamina players for low cost but maximum efficiency, something heals can never achieve in the same extent. And you barely can’t play around or prevent dodge rolling whereas there are debuffs for less healing. So while Magicka might resort to a healing proc set, Stamina doesn’t have to, because dodge roll carries you through most kinds of damage. Plus, Stamina has at least 20% more Weapon Damage than Magicka has Spell Damage, which makes their procs hit even harder.

Stamina has been favored in PvP for years now and this change just makes the gap worse.

Not just a stam player, I play around 60-40 magicka builds - stam builds. Light armour also gives dodge cost reduction, and there's even a specific cp star that reduces dodge cost with a damage shield active, so not sure where you're even going with this. Magicka can shield AND dodge AND heal. And spell pen has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread so I'm not going to reiterate.

It's funny how the people who accuse others of being "just stam players" also demonstrate the largest and most obvious pro-magicka bias.

Oh and Stamina players can’t simply heal and dodge roll? Which Magicka build besides Sorcs is even relying on Shields anymore? They’ve been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed. Stamina has an incredibly powerful heal in Vigor, to get the same as Magicka I would need to equip a Restoration staff. Sure, there are class heals, but most of them have been brought in line for Stamina builds as well when it comes to their scaling. And still, Stamina benefits by dodge roll way more than Magicka. I think we don’t have to go over all the other advantages in PvP. The Twohand weapon tree alone outperforms every Magicka option for PvP, that skill line has everything. But that’s not where the Stamina bias ends. It’s a fact that Stamina has been dominating PvP for years now (and Magicka PvE, but that’s not the topic here).

Tannus15

jecks33 wrote: »

So, monster sets are dead for magicka pve toons?

depends on the PvE context.

Slimecraw is one of the strongest solo monster sets and is unaffected.

If you're in a group you'll be hitting those numbers as long as you're getting major and minor courage, which you'll get even in a classic group.
The main reason you won't be seeing monster sets this patch in PvE is because everyone is going to be running harpooner and 1pc slimecraw. It'll have nothing to do with proc set nerfs and everything to do with mythics that are actually worth using in PvE

Sahidom

cheemers wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Heal procs will be more OP on mag than damage procs will be on stam.

Don't let the deluded one-trick vested interest magicka crutchers even try and convince you otherwise.

Says a Stamina player? Dodge roll is the best mitigation tool in game and due to various bonuses from Medium armor it’s easy to be used constantly by Stamina players for low cost but maximum efficiency, something heals can never achieve in the same extent. And you barely can’t play around or prevent dodge rolling whereas there are debuffs for less healing. So while Magicka might resort to a healing proc set, Stamina doesn’t have to, because dodge roll carries you through most kinds of damage. Plus, Stamina has at least 20% more Weapon Damage than Magicka has Spell Damage, which makes their procs hit even harder.

Stamina has been favored in PvP for years now and this change just makes the gap worse.

Not just a stam player, I play around 60-40 magicka builds - stam builds. Light armour also gives dodge cost reduction, and there's even a specific cp star that reduces dodge cost with a damage shield active, so not sure where you're even going with this. Magicka can shield AND dodge AND heal. And spell pen has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread so I'm not going to reiterate.

It's funny how the people who accuse others of being "just stam players" also demonstrate the largest and most obvious pro-magicka bias.

One problem with the LA benefits is the penalties are pretty stiff in PVP when Stamina is common, and you simply cannot be a glass cannon in PVP without being a "thank you" one shot kill.

It's far more difficult to stack spell damage to 6.5k, is it possible, absolutely and w/o normal trial buffs. However, you probably won't be wearing LA to off-set all the penalties for going deep into stacking spell damage. This is one concern when medium armor freely gains +10% WD which sort of balance itself out between light and medium armor damage; yet when the two are side by side, Stamina users have an advantage to reaching 6.5k weapon damage to access full damage on proc sets. That's where magic builds that use proc sets are at a numerical disadvantage.

Adjust the spell damage requirement down by 10% and it'd be a closer pair up.

YandereGirlfriend

Brrrofski wrote: »

I don't use proc sets so couldn't care less about scaling them.

But I honestly do wonder if people know that the can have more than one character.

This whole magica Vs stam thing is crazy. I have like 6 or 7 classes that I PvP on at any one time. Mix of stam or mag. People are so hell-bent on playing one version of a class and get so upset if something else somewhere else does a little bit of damage more than another thing.

I have 17 characters and it is for that very reason that I want to see maximum build diversity. Because running the exact same load-outs on handfuls of characters is, frankly, asinine and boring.

So I was quite excited at the prospect that my Frost Warden might be able to actually use something like Icy Conjuror in PvE and NOT absolutely ruin my personal DPS for doing so.

But now those hopes and dreams are completely out the window. Rather than a hope for viability, it's now even weaker than it was before the patch unless you're in a full raid setting with all available Spell Damage buffs.

Absolutely absurd way to balance a game.