Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina

Arieswar13

As the title says, Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina builds can stack weapon damage. So do not lump then together. Stamina builds can easily reach over 7k weapon damage. Even in a pve environment, 6300-6400 is pushing the max amount of spell power obtainable. Consider having the adjustments to proc sets scale on a different value of spell power and weapon damage.

To be comparable, it should be closer to the proposed 6574 weapon damage and maybe 5000-5500 spell damage. There is no reason to lump the values together when the magicka and stamina are build to scale differently (armor passives).

MurderMostFoul

Arieswar13 wrote: »

As the title says, Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina builds can stack weapon damage. So do not lump then together. Stamina builds can easily reach over 7k weapon damage. Even in a pve environment, 6300-6400 is pushing the max amount of spell power obtainable. Consider having the adjustments to proc sets scale on a different value of spell power and weapon damage.

To be comparable, it should be closer to the proposed 6574 weapon damage and maybe 5000-5500 spell damage. There is no reason to lump the values together when the magicka and stamina are build to scale differently (armor passives).

Spell pen.

nesakinter

Magicka procs hit harder anyways to due to spell pen.

Starlock

The caps were already insane for anyone who isn't a freaking min/max power gamer, and they made it worse. Flipping stupidest thing ever. Ruining one of the most fun things to play with in the game - proc sets - and for what? For flipping WHAT exactly!?

I've never gotten vapid angry at balance changes in this game. But this is total $#@*#. It ruins like all of my characters. So I'm taking them home and leaving. $#@% this $#@%.

sarahthes

Starlock wrote: »

The caps were already insane for anyone who isn't a freaking min/max power gamer, and they made it worse. Flipping stupidest thing ever. Ruining one of the most fun things to play with in the game - proc sets - and for what? For flipping WHAT exactly!?

I've never gotten vapid angry at balance changes in this game. But this is total $#@*#. It ruins like all of my characters. So I'm taking them home and leaving. $#@% this $#@%.

Every parse I've seen is close to the spell damage cap, on live, and as a GM I see a lot of parses...

Should be easy to hit in content with an optimized group, maybe not so easy to hit on the dummy.

irstarkey57

sarahthes wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

The caps were already insane for anyone who isn't a freaking min/max power gamer, and they made it worse. Flipping stupidest thing ever. Ruining one of the most fun things to play with in the game - proc sets - and for what? For flipping WHAT exactly!?

I've never gotten vapid angry at balance changes in this game. But this is total $#@*#. It ruins like all of my characters. So I'm taking them home and leaving. $#@% this $#@%.

Every parse I've seen is close to the spell damage cap, on live, and as a GM I see a lot of parses...

Should be easy to hit in content with an optimized group, maybe not so easy to hit on the dummy.

It’s more of an issue for pvp.

RandomKodiak

@sarahthes Great but many people who play don't have perfectly optimised groups and it even further reduces stamina builds to dungeon and PvP only. As for PvP Magicka gets shafted. This is not balanced at all and not even close to being fair, it is forcing those who PvE to only play magicka or never get trials and those who PvP to go Stam or tank. Been playing three years, played MMOs since 1999 and Everquest and this is the worst balancing I have ever seen.

Starlock

sarahthes wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

The caps were already insane for anyone who isn't a freaking min/max power gamer, and they made it worse. Flipping stupidest thing ever. Ruining one of the most fun things to play with in the game - proc sets - and for what? For flipping WHAT exactly!?

I've never gotten vapid angry at balance changes in this game. But this is total $#@*#. It ruins like all of my characters. So I'm taking them home and leaving. $#@% this $#@%.

Every parse I've seen is close to the spell damage cap, on live, and as a GM I see a lot of parses...

Should be easy to hit in content with an optimized group, maybe not so easy to hit on the dummy.

No.

I couldn't care less about "parses" or "rotations" or "optimized groups" or any of that min/max power gamer crap. And the developers are completely ignoring how this impacts anyone who isn't a freaking power gamer. Regular players were going to get slammed hard with this patch as it was because we never, ever hit this "parse" whatever you are going on about in the first place. We're taking a straight nerf. A huge nerf. If this goes live, all my proc sets on lightning mage will be doing half damage, at best, plus a major hit from the CP changes.

It pisses me the hell off. This is the absolute worst "balance" decision they could make for regular players who don't care about chasing numbers. Both CP and flat proc damage helped elevate regular players so we could compelte some harder content. Now they will be crap and useless for us. They will not be fun anymore. And neither will this game. They might as well just run all regular players through a meat grinder and make this a pro e-sports title and get it over with.

Arieswar13

What I would LIKE to see is battle spirit taking effect on proc sets. This is where the large issue is to start. I think proc sets should be more fun to use in PVE without gimping dps as much.

VoidCommander

Starlock wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

The caps were already insane for anyone who isn't a freaking min/max power gamer, and they made it worse. Flipping stupidest thing ever. Ruining one of the most fun things to play with in the game - proc sets - and for what? For flipping WHAT exactly!?

I've never gotten vapid angry at balance changes in this game. But this is total $#@*#. It ruins like all of my characters. So I'm taking them home and leaving. $#@% this $#@%.

Every parse I've seen is close to the spell damage cap, on live, and as a GM I see a lot of parses...

Should be easy to hit in content with an optimized group, maybe not so easy to hit on the dummy.

No.

I couldn't care less about "parses" or "rotations" or "optimized groups" or any of that min/max power gamer crap. And the developers are completely ignoring how this impacts anyone who isn't a freaking power gamer. Regular players were going to get slammed hard with this patch as it was because we never, ever hit this "parse" whatever you are going on about in the first place. We're taking a straight nerf. A huge nerf. If this goes live, all my proc sets on lightning mage will be doing half damage, at best, plus a major hit from the CP changes.

It pisses me the hell off. This is the absolute worst "balance" decision they could make for regular players who don't care about chasing numbers. Both CP and flat proc damage helped elevate regular players so we could compelte some harder content. Now they will be crap and useless for us. They will not be fun anymore. And neither will this game. They might as well just run all regular players through a meat grinder and make this a pro e-sports title and get it over with.

If you don’t care about numbers, then why are you upset. You say you’re not chasing numbers, so continue to do so. Nerds like these won’t affect casual players because they don’t care about the “meta” builds to begin with.

Susurrus

I've never understood the appeal of damage proc sets. Anything I accomplished using them just feels cheap to me as they do damage without any user input.

KeiRaikon

The problem is that this further increases the gap between the floor and ceiling as well as severely nerfing the power of more fun and gimmicky builds. Proc sets are already worse then just stacking crit and pen for PvE but with these changes now the people whose builds were already worse because they wanted to use a set they found fun are even further behind. This change makes it even harder for casual and solo players to clear harder content while pretty much having no change for the hardcore number chasing groups unless you just give up your proc sets for the boring pen and crit sets and do we really want even less build diversity.

Cuddler

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Spell pen.

Irrelevant as it is not changing from 29 to 30. Procs are only getting nerfed on Magicka builds. Stamina builds will have the same or higher proc damage as 6500 WD is about average and really easy to exceed.

Arieswar13

Susurrus wrote: »

I've never understood the appeal of damage proc sets. Anything I accomplished using them just feels cheap to me as they do damage without any user input.

In a lot of cases, proc sets are a band aid to class weaknesses in pvp. For example, try using jabs on a medium armor build with evasion up, 40% damage decrease.

As for pve, think monster sets and relequen.

Monster sets add a nice flavour, but I much prefer my damage to come from my class abilities I press.

neferpitou73

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Arieswar13 wrote: »

As the title says, Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina builds can stack weapon damage. So do not lump then together. Stamina builds can easily reach over 7k weapon damage. Even in a pve environment, 6300-6400 is pushing the max amount of spell power obtainable. Consider having the adjustments to proc sets scale on a different value of spell power and weapon damage.

To be comparable, it should be closer to the proposed 6574 weapon damage and maybe 5000-5500 spell damage. There is no reason to lump the values together when the magicka and stamina are build to scale differently (armor passives).

Spell pen.

I think it's easier to get penetration bonuses (or enemy resistance reductions) than increase spell damage tho. Especially if you're running in a ball group.

Starlock

VoidCommander wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

The caps were already insane for anyone who isn't a freaking min/max power gamer, and they made it worse. Flipping stupidest thing ever. Ruining one of the most fun things to play with in the game - proc sets - and for what? For flipping WHAT exactly!?

I've never gotten vapid angry at balance changes in this game. But this is total $#@*#. It ruins like all of my characters. So I'm taking them home and leaving. $#@% this $#@%.

Every parse I've seen is close to the spell damage cap, on live, and as a GM I see a lot of parses...

Should be easy to hit in content with an optimized group, maybe not so easy to hit on the dummy.

No.

I couldn't care less about "parses" or "rotations" or "optimized groups" or any of that min/max power gamer crap. And the developers are completely ignoring how this impacts anyone who isn't a freaking power gamer. Regular players were going to get slammed hard with this patch as it was because we never, ever hit this "parse" whatever you are going on about in the first place. We're taking a straight nerf. A huge nerf. If this goes live, all my proc sets on lightning mage will be doing half damage, at best, plus a major hit from the CP changes.

It pisses me the hell off. This is the absolute worst "balance" decision they could make for regular players who don't care about chasing numbers. Both CP and flat proc damage helped elevate regular players so we could compelte some harder content. Now they will be crap and useless for us. They will not be fun anymore. And neither will this game. They might as well just run all regular players through a meat grinder and make this a pro e-sports title and get it over with.

If you don’t care about numbers, then why are you upset. You say you’re not chasing numbers, so continue to do so. Nerds like these won’t affect casual players because they don’t care about the “meta” builds to begin with.

t does impact regular players. We do like doing things like soloing world bosses, doing public dungeons on our own, and maybe even normal group dungeons. The power of CP and proc sets helps us do these things comfortably. Nerfing both of these things is going to hurt us disproportionately and may make us unable to do the types of content we used to like to do - or make it frustratingly tedious. I have little doubt I can still solo world bosses after these changes (maybe - some I probably won't be able to because these changes are so severe) but it's going to be unnecessarily tedious.

As was mentioned by more folks than just myself, this is going to widen the gap between what is pejoratively called "the floor" and the people who chase numbers. We called out this problem in the first patch notes, and now they are making this problem even worse! WORSE! The 5.5k spell damage was already inconceivable on all my characters, never mind upping the cap even more. All my proc sets will be slashed in half at least, making world boss soloing more difficult/tedious and the game just less fun in general.

Starlock

KeiRaikon wrote: »

The problem is that this further increases the gap between the floor and ceiling as well as severely nerfing the power of more fun and gimmicky builds. Proc sets are already worse then just stacking crit and pen for PvE but with these changes now the people whose builds were already worse because they wanted to use a set they found fun are even further behind. This change makes it even harder for casual and solo players to clear harder content while pretty much having no change for the hardcore number chasing groups unless you just give up your proc sets for the boring pen and crit sets and do we really want even less build diversity.

Exactly. I played this game for fun, but also like doing some of the more challenging content. I didn't care that my "build" was "worse" because I was building for character and creativity - I figured out how to make it work anyway for some of the more challenging content and proc sets were a significant part of that. Now that won't really work. My characters will just suck, so they're going to wander off and be created in some other game where they won't suck instead, I guess? They apparently want to kill build diversity and push players like me to leave the game. Mission accomplished?

cheemers

By increasing magicka, you boost your damage, healing, Proc healing, and shield size. Your light armour passives already give spell pen which increases damage more on a like-for-like basis than spell damage, for both skills and procs.

Max magicka is far far easier to stack than max stam. Night blades get 12%, plus 7% from inner light, and you have bonkers sets like necropotence and ancient grace. Additionally you can just Chuck on 1pc trainee wherever you have space, or use 1pc domi / 1pc swarm mother to get free extras. Additionally increasing your max pool automatically increases your effective sustain in all but the longest fights.

Weapon damage stacking sacrifices much more for much less. You are arguing on the wrong side...

MurderMostFoul

Cuddler wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Spell pen.

Irrelevant as it is not changing from 29 to 30. Procs are only getting nerfed on Magicka builds. Stamina builds will have the same or higher proc damage as 6500 WD is about average and really easy to exceed.

What you're asking for is equivalent to mag and stam having equal access to spell/wep damage, but mag having more access to pen.

katorga

cheemers wrote: »

By increasing magicka, you boost your damage, healing, Proc healing, and shield size. Your light armour passives already give spell pen which increases damage more on a like-for-like basis than spell damage, for both skills and procs.

Max magicka is far far easier to stack than max stam. Night blades get 12%, plus 7% from inner light, and you have bonkers sets like necropotence and ancient grace. Additionally you can just Chuck on 1pc trainee wherever you have space, or use 1pc domi / 1pc swarm mother to get free extras. Additionally increasing your max pool automatically increases your effective sustain in all but the longest fights.

Weapon damage stacking sacrifices much more for much less. You are arguing on the wrong side...

I don't think I'd consider necropotence "bonkers". It is entry level compared to the wd/sd sets that give 50-100% more stat for the 5 piece. wd/sp and stam/mag are equivilent in terms of skills. But what the heck, my Sorc can stack them all: 8% stam/mag/health and up to 12% wd/sp.

My necro....not so much.

Does it matter, not really.

cheemers

katorga wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

By increasing magicka, you boost your damage, healing, Proc healing, and shield size. Your light armour passives already give spell pen which increases damage more on a like-for-like basis than spell damage, for both skills and procs.

Max magicka is far far easier to stack than max stam. Night blades get 12%, plus 7% from inner light, and you have bonkers sets like necropotence and ancient grace. Additionally you can just Chuck on 1pc trainee wherever you have space, or use 1pc domi / 1pc swarm mother to get free extras. Additionally increasing your max pool automatically increases your effective sustain in all but the longest fights.

Weapon damage stacking sacrifices much more for much less. You are arguing on the wrong side...

I don't think I'd consider necropotence "bonkers". It is entry level compared to the wd/sd sets that give 50-100% more stat for the 5 piece. wd/sp and stam/mag are equivilent in terms of skills. But what the heck, my Sorc can stack them all: 8% stam/mag/health and up to 12% wd/sp.

My necro....not so much.

Does it matter, not really.

I'm comparing max mag stacking to max stam stacking, not to spell/wep dmg, since there are no stam equivalents to necropotence or ancient grace. For example if a stam character wanted to use a healing proc like Earthgore, they would struggle much more to hit the 40k max stat than a comparable mag build. People only focus on the offensive procs when the healing procs are at least as important.

Stacking max mag boosts three defensive modalities - heals, heal procs, and shields - which is another inconsistency between stam and mag.

Faylestar

If you don’t care about numbers, then why are you upset. You say you’re not chasing numbers, so continue to do so. Nerds like these won’t affect casual players because they don’t care about the “meta” builds to begin with.

I use mad tinkerers on a couple solo builds because it's slightly less damage than boring "stack crit go brrrr" but has a somewhat controllable crowd control effect on it (because farming things, you can expect to hit a pack of stuff with the fabricant every 8ish seconds and not waste it).

Its now doing an extra ~30% less damage without making a choice to lose more damage elsewhere to raw damage.

Things like Unfathomable Darkness, Ashen Grip, Way of Fire are okayish stopgap sets for people gearing up with their real sets (Ashen Grip gets a little crapped on due to low damage per second per target , but when you're farming PD's or normal mode dungeons for gear, its going to be hitting packs of things at a time) . And they're now losing 30-40% of their damage.

These aren't competing with the top end sets, they're previously competing with other "fresh 160cp what do I use to farm things i want" gear, and they're not really doing that now, because the people wearing them are NEVER going to have the full buff stacking needed for those to do more damage. They arent running around with full gold infused jewels and max possible weapon damage from cp, potions, food, jewel enchants, mundus, ect (and some of those are just worse for overall damage than other options).

Its taking sets nobody uses when they have access to actual gearsets, or who use them for very niche things, and making them 25-40% worse than the non-competitive they already were.

wazzz56

Starlock wrote: »

The caps were already insane for anyone who isn't a freaking min/max power gamer, and they made it worse. Flipping stupidest thing ever. Ruining one of the most fun things to play with in the game - proc sets - and for what? For flipping WHAT exactly!?

I've never gotten vapid angry at balance changes in this game. But this is total $#@*#. It ruins like all of my characters. So I'm taking them home and leaving. $#@% this $#@%.

Maybe they want people to actually have to play the game and not rely on cheap, easy damage? Maybe it is an chance for you to improve your skills? Maybe not lean on heavy attacks and procs to get you through stuff.....procs were waaay overtuned...sticking to what they said about addressing the proc issues is a very good thing for the game..now if they can only fix the ui issues

jecks33

So, monster sets are dead for magicka pve toons?

YandereGirlfriend

I had been on the other side of this but proc sets are completely dead now for non-optimized Magicka players and groups.

If you don't have Major Courage, Minor Courage, and Powerful Assault in your composition you have no hope of ever reaching the cap.

neferpitou73

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I had been on the other side of this but proc sets are completely dead now for non-optimized Magicka players and groups.

If you don't have Major Courage, Minor Courage, and Powerful Assault in your composition you have no hope of ever reaching the cap.

Yup, ZOS just buffed ball groups. I can't wait until we get blamed for this

Cuddler

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Spell pen.

Irrelevant as it is not changing from 29 to 30. Procs are only getting nerfed on Magicka builds. Stamina builds will have the same or higher proc damage as 6500 WD is about average and really easy to exceed.

What you're asking for is equivalent to mag and stam having equal access to spell/wep damage, but mag having more access to pen.

I am not asking for anything. Learn to read. I am just pointing out the obvious: proc sets are getting nerfed on Magicka builds only.

If I were to ask for anything, then I would ask ZOS to drop the silly idea of scaling the proc sets and instead simply hit them with a big nerf bat, at the very least the popular and well-known offenders. One way ZOS could do it and avoid affecting PVE much is make procs crit again, but significantly reduce their base damage. This should be balanced around the average PVE crit bonus, which would indirectly weaken proc damage in PVP due to players having crit resistance.

katorga

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I had been on the other side of this but proc sets are completely dead now for non-optimized Magicka players and groups.

If you don't have Major Courage, Minor Courage, and Powerful Assault in your composition you have no hope of ever reaching the cap.

Realistically, in pve, how many top tier dps builds use proc damage sets beside a monster set?

Pvp is a whole different thing, but if this achieves the goal of killing proc sets in pvp, isn't that what the forums are demanding?

neferpitou73

katorga wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I had been on the other side of this but proc sets are completely dead now for non-optimized Magicka players and groups.

If you don't have Major Courage, Minor Courage, and Powerful Assault in your composition you have no hope of ever reaching the cap.

Realistically, in pve, how many top tier dps builds use proc damage sets beside a monster set?

Pvp is a whole different thing, but if this achieves the goal of killing proc sets in pvp, isn't that what the forums are demanding?

I don't think the forums (or at least the playerbase in general) wants procs killed for pvp. We wanted a few select sets nerfed because they were overperforming (i.e. crimson, malacath).

Instead of doing that ZOS decided to change the entire system (which has it's benefits for pve) without considering the consequences to the point that we now have ridiculously insane proc dmg. This is a mess entirely of their making

Arieswar13

Again, there is no issue with people wanting to use proc sets in general. There are some fun builds to be played in solo pve and things like monster sets are fun too. In fact, having them scale as your character becomes stronger can be fun as well.

There is however, a severe issue in PVP. The best way to address this is to utilize battle spirit.

There is no need to nerf proc sets for magicka users into the ground in every part of the game while buffing them for stam users in every aspect of the game. ESPECIALLY in pvp where there is already a stam meta.

I'm fine with stam having pve buffs via relequen scaling etc. But do not make an entire class of gear useless for magicka and do not buff them in general for pvp.

Arieswar13

katorga wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I had been on the other side of this but proc sets are completely dead now for non-optimized Magicka players and groups.

If you don't have Major Courage, Minor Courage, and Powerful Assault in your composition you have no hope of ever reaching the cap.

Realistically, in pve, how many top tier dps builds use proc damage sets beside a monster set?

Pvp is a whole different thing, but if this achieves the goal of killing proc sets in pvp, isn't that what the forums are demanding?

Relequen is an easy example. There are likely other niche examples as well.