The Frostbite set and the problems it faces.

ESO_Nightingale

Kesstryl wrote: »

OMG are you guys trying to get Julianos nerfed? Didn't you learn anything when they nerfed Iceheart to sell Mother Ciannait? Stop ruining stuff guys!

I cannot imagine how hilarious, stupid and sad (that would be) if they nerfed julianos.

Tannus15

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

OMG are you guys trying to get Julianos nerfed? Didn't you learn anything when they nerfed Iceheart to sell Mother Ciannait? Stop ruining stuff guys!

I cannot imagine how hilarious, stupid and sad (that would be) if they nerfed julianos.

Julianos has been the benchmark for all sets for a really long time. If you look at sets like BSW and average out it's spell damage by it's uptime you get around 300 spell damage, the same as julianos. I would be completely unsurprised to find that, when worn on the body, all magicka damage sets (except siroria) will parse very closely to Julianos.

ESO_Nightingale

Tannus15 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

OMG are you guys trying to get Julianos nerfed? Didn't you learn anything when they nerfed Iceheart to sell Mother Ciannait? Stop ruining stuff guys!

I cannot imagine how hilarious, stupid and sad (that would be) if they nerfed julianos.

Julianos has been the benchmark for all sets for a really long time. If you look at sets like BSW and average out it's spell damage by it's uptime you get around 300 spell damage, the same as julianos. I would be completely unsurprised to find that, when worn on the body, all magicka damage sets (except siroria) will parse very closely to Julianos.

Yet those sets are actually better because they have conditions just like frostbite execpt frostbite has little support via viable skills and likely won't this patch.

Excelsus

They need to buff the damage to brittle enemies or change Frostbite to a flat 12% damage buff whenever you apply minor brittle. Make it rely on using a frost staff but not tied to using all frost skills since thats impossible.

ESO_Nightingale

Excelsus wrote: »

They need to buff the damage to brittle enemies or change Frostbite to a flat 12% damage buff whenever you apply minor brittle. Make it rely on using a frost staff but not tied to using all frost skills since thats impossible.

I dunno. I think the set will be good with a little more frost damage and some future skill support.

Vaoh

I wish they’d change Animal Companions to Frost Damage but I doubt it’ll happen....

Most likely we will be waiting for Spellcrafting to create a Frost Damage spammable, dot, etc. If not then maybe a new class will release eventually? Who knows.

Until then our hopes of a “ice mage” dps just won’t be all that great. The closest we ever got was when the Master Ice Destro turned Frost Clench into a (weak) ice spammable.

ESO_Nightingale

Vaoh wrote: »

I wish they’d change Animal Companions to Frost Damage but I doubt it’ll happen....

Most likely we will be waiting for Spellcrafting to create a Frost Damage spammable, dot, etc. If not then maybe a new class will release eventually? Who knows.

Until then our hopes of a “ice mage” dps just won’t be all that great. The closest we ever got was when the Master Ice Destro turned Frost Clench into a (weak) ice spammable.

Imo, i think it's definitely possible. Though if they made certain frost damage destruction staff skills good, that would also help.

I think that, given the recent support they've given us, it is a goal for them to make our playstyle viable. Before markarth the only thing we had was glacial presence and some bad sets. Now since then we have gotten an effect that dps can use to buff their dps and a new set that is most likely going to be useful even with indirect help especially now that they cared enough to listen to our feedback to buff it.

I think yanderegirlfriend said the only reason they thought the buff was so small is because zos has a plan in the next few updates. That could be true.

Tivnael

Nice, but still too weak

zvavi

I will be honest, after a bit of consideration, I don't think animal companion abilities should be frost. Wardens are supposed to be nature and frost, not frost and frost, changing all animal companion skills to frost will rob people of the option to play "nature" theme. Therefore I think that we should find more frost damage from the frost tree.

ESO_Nightingale

zvavi wrote: »

I will be honest, after a bit of consideration, I don't think animal companion abilities should be frost. Wardens are supposed to be nature and frost, not frost and frost, changing all animal companion skills to frost will rob people of the option to play "nature" theme. Therefore I think that we should find more frost damage from the frost tree.

with the change, they're still spirit animals. just imbued with frost on magicka warden. it doesn't change anything thematically for the animals. and they're our main rotational skills. so it's a necessary at the very least for deep fissure to be changed.

i'd love a frost damage spammable that works a lot better with the class but i doubt it's gonna happen, i know a lot of people have suggested it. and it would be interesting if expansive frost cloak turned into a spammable while it was active or something. or if frozen retreat was reworked to be a spammable. but i just doubt it at the moment. i think it's far more logical for racer deal frost damage instead since i doubt zos is going to give us another spammable.

LeHarrt91

zvavi wrote: »

I will be honest, after a bit of consideration, I don't think animal companion abilities should be frost. Wardens are supposed to be nature and frost, not frost and frost, changing all animal companion skills to frost will rob people of the option to play "nature" theme. Therefore I think that we should find more frost damage from the frost tree.

This could be remedied by a new skill line whether Frost or Nature but everyone would have access too it.

Excelsus

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I will be honest, after a bit of consideration, I don't think animal companion abilities should be frost. Wardens are supposed to be nature and frost, not frost and frost, changing all animal companion skills to frost will rob people of the option to play "nature" theme. Therefore I think that we should find more frost damage from the frost tree.

This could be remedied by a new skill line whether Frost or Nature but everyone would have access too it.

Spellcrafting would have had several great frost skills like Glacial Spike and Conjure Frost Atronach. They should just release it as a skill line. Solve all our problems.

ESO_Nightingale

Excelsus wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I will be honest, after a bit of consideration, I don't think animal companion abilities should be frost. Wardens are supposed to be nature and frost, not frost and frost, changing all animal companion skills to frost will rob people of the option to play "nature" theme. Therefore I think that we should find more frost damage from the frost tree.

This could be remedied by a new skill line whether Frost or Nature but everyone would have access too it.

Spellcrafting would have had several great frost skills like Glacial Spike and Conjure Frost Atronach. They should just release it as a skill line. Solve all our problems.

things like that would be great for sure, but i have no idea if zos will do that. spell crafting is a ton of work and something that they would need to release for a chapter. it would be a lot more likely for them to release a smaller skill line akin to the psijic order in the next chapter, or even just look at warden's kit before the chapter next year.

Vaoh

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

I wish they’d change Animal Companions to Frost Damage but I doubt it’ll happen....

Most likely we will be waiting for Spellcrafting to create a Frost Damage spammable, dot, etc. If not then maybe a new class will release eventually? Who knows.

Until then our hopes of a “ice mage” dps just won’t be all that great. The closest we ever got was when the Master Ice Destro turned Frost Clench into a (weak) ice spammable.

Imo, i think it's definitely possible. Though if they made certain frost damage destruction staff skills good, that would also help.

I think that, given the recent support they've given us, it is a goal for them to make our playstyle viable. Before markarth the only thing we had was glacial presence and some bad sets. Now since then we have gotten an effect that dps can use to buff their dps and a new set that is most likely going to be useful even with indirect help especially now that they cared enough to listen to our feedback to buff it.

I think yanderegirlfriend said the only reason they thought the buff was so small is because zos has a plan in the next few updates. That could be true.

Good point We’ll just have to wait and see.

Frostbite is awesome to see though because we finally have a legit strong ice dps set.

zvavi

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I will be honest, after a bit of consideration, I don't think animal companion abilities should be frost. Wardens are supposed to be nature and frost, not frost and frost, changing all animal companion skills to frost will rob people of the option to play "nature" theme. Therefore I think that we should find more frost damage from the frost tree.

with the change, they're still spirit animals. just imbued with frost on magicka warden. it doesn't change anything thematically for the animals. and they're our main rotational skills. so it's a necessary at the very least for deep fissure to be changed.

i'd love a frost damage spammable that works a lot better with the class but i doubt it's gonna happen, i know a lot of people have suggested it. and it would be interesting if expansive frost cloak turned into a spammable while it was active or something. or if frozen retreat was reworked to be a spammable. but i just doubt it at the moment. i think it's far more logical for racer deal frost damage instead since i doubt zos is going to give us another spammable.

Ye, no. If a person wanna feel druidy, his spells dealing only frost damage is definitely a turn off. They should just split Arctic blast morph from healing and do a damage over time morph, by deleting the heal, lowering price a bit more, and multiplying the damage it does by 1.6. and then keep the other morph as the heal focused morph instead of nerfing it.

YandereGirlfriend

zvavi wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I will be honest, after a bit of consideration, I don't think animal companion abilities should be frost. Wardens are supposed to be nature and frost, not frost and frost, changing all animal companion skills to frost will rob people of the option to play "nature" theme. Therefore I think that we should find more frost damage from the frost tree.

with the change, they're still spirit animals. just imbued with frost on magicka warden. it doesn't change anything thematically for the animals. and they're our main rotational skills. so it's a necessary at the very least for deep fissure to be changed.

i'd love a frost damage spammable that works a lot better with the class but i doubt it's gonna happen, i know a lot of people have suggested it. and it would be interesting if expansive frost cloak turned into a spammable while it was active or something. or if frozen retreat was reworked to be a spammable. but i just doubt it at the moment. i think it's far more logical for racer deal frost damage instead since i doubt zos is going to give us another spammable.

Ye, no. If a person wanna feel druidy, his spells dealing only frost damage is definitely a turn off. They should just split Arctic blast morph from healing and do a damage over time morph, by deleting the heal, lowering price a bit more, and multiplying the damage it does by 1.6. and then keep the other morph as the heal focused morph instead of nerfing it.

No Frost Animal Companions means that the onus is on ZOS to produce a Frost Damage spammable as well as a delayed burst ability and probably a couple more DoTs.

Magic Damage already has strongholds in several other classes, it does not need a continuing colony in the Frost Damage class.

dsalter

the problem is theres so few frost abilities for non-warden in general and the only one able to make ample use of frost is necromancer who has the most frost spells that arent buffs available to them.

theres an entire class based around fire and most of its abilities do indeed have both a fire and physical/poison option
there is specific weapon line dedicated to one elemental type depending on the staff, frost being the weakest and/or for tanking.
sorcerer is mostly shock with bits of physical/magicka damage.
night blade is mostly magicka with physical/poison options
templar is mostly physical with several magicka/fire options.

only real options for frost damage is either a frost staff (again, one of the weakest staffs for damage), ice comet for mages skill line and... 3 proc sets.

this is why we need new skill expansions for mages guild and fighters guild to pad out options for other classes or the addition of a 3rd morph that allows us to change the element of a skill, as an example: a third morph for dark shard allows us to atune it to our staffs element or shift it physical/poison for physical weapon users or a 3rd morph for comet to shift it more into a thunder bolt.
that sort of thing.

ESO_Nightingale

Vaoh wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

I wish they’d change Animal Companions to Frost Damage but I doubt it’ll happen....

Most likely we will be waiting for Spellcrafting to create a Frost Damage spammable, dot, etc. If not then maybe a new class will release eventually? Who knows.

Until then our hopes of a “ice mage” dps just won’t be all that great. The closest we ever got was when the Master Ice Destro turned Frost Clench into a (weak) ice spammable.

Imo, i think it's definitely possible. Though if they made certain frost damage destruction staff skills good, that would also help.

I think that, given the recent support they've given us, it is a goal for them to make our playstyle viable. Before markarth the only thing we had was glacial presence and some bad sets. Now since then we have gotten an effect that dps can use to buff their dps and a new set that is most likely going to be useful even with indirect help especially now that they cared enough to listen to our feedback to buff it.

I think yanderegirlfriend said the only reason they thought the buff was so small is because zos has a plan in the next few updates. That could be true.

Good point We’ll just have to wait and see.

Frostbite is awesome to see though because we finally have a legit strong ice dps set.

Maybe. It's not strong enough to be used right now.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I will be honest, after a bit of consideration, I don't think animal companion abilities should be frost. Wardens are supposed to be nature and frost, not frost and frost, changing all animal companion skills to frost will rob people of the option to play "nature" theme. Therefore I think that we should find more frost damage from the frost tree.

with the change, they're still spirit animals. just imbued with frost on magicka warden. it doesn't change anything thematically for the animals. and they're our main rotational skills. so it's a necessary at the very least for deep fissure to be changed.

i'd love a frost damage spammable that works a lot better with the class but i doubt it's gonna happen, i know a lot of people have suggested it. and it would be interesting if expansive frost cloak turned into a spammable while it was active or something. or if frozen retreat was reworked to be a spammable. but i just doubt it at the moment. i think it's far more logical for racer deal frost damage instead since i doubt zos is going to give us another spammable.

Ye, no. If a person wanna feel druidy, his spells dealing only frost damage is definitely a turn off. They should just split Arctic blast morph from healing and do a damage over time morph, by deleting the heal, lowering price a bit more, and multiplying the damage it does by 1.6. and then keep the other morph as the heal focused morph instead of nerfing it.

No Frost Animal Companions means that the onus is on ZOS to produce a Frost Damage spammable as well as a delayed burst ability and probably a couple more DoTs.

Magic Damage already has strongholds in several other classes, it does not need a continuing colony in the Frost Damage class.

Yeah. It's not really a solution to just say "just rework one skill". People who are saying this are ignoring that our main fb rotational skills (especially and mainly deep fissure) are magic damage. If only deep fissure changed and we were able to get a frost damage spammable some other way that should be enough. But it would be easier and faster to just change screaming cliff racer as well.

Finedaible

They should have never tried to cram so many different themes into each class in my opinion. Warden being themed around "Nature" and "Frost Magic" was confusing enough, but they chose to make the Winter's Embrace tree all about tanking so that's what they got.

I'm starting to agree with the sentiment that class skills should be expanded on. Give them all a 4th unlockable skill line or something to fill in the gaps that are missing. The game is growing stagnant with the same limited skill sets.

ESO_Nightingale

Finedaible wrote: »

They should have never tried to cram so many different themes into each class in my opinion. Warden being themed around "Nature" and "Frost Magic" was confusing enough, but they chose to make the Winter's Embrace tree all about tanking so that's what they got.

I'm starting to agree with the sentiment that class skills should be expanded on. Give them all a 4th unlockable skill line or something to fill in the gaps that are missing. The game is growing stagnant with the same limited skill sets.

yep, but we have to deal with it now. it's easy enough to change the damage type of some of the animals to frost, because it really doesn't change anything for regular magdens and means a lot for those of us who want to build for frost. via giving us actual damage skills in our main frontbar rotation.

MindOfTheSwarm

This is an old post but I felt I needed to respond. Sorcs don’t need their Dark Magic skills changing to Shock and Warden’s don’t need their Animals changing to Frost. Magic builds are thing and the above changes would kill those builds on those classes.

If you want more Shock or Frost abilities then either third morphs on class skills or requesting changes to some guild skill morphs would be better. Furthermore Warden Winter Embrace could have some of its skills be more offensive in nature such as Slab and Frozen Gate.

Changing these morphs to damage focused morphs would be a start. Then simply change Entropy and Structured in mages guild to deal Frost Damage and have Major Sorcery baseline. Degeneration can stay as the Magic morph or perhaps a Shock Morph.

Finally rework Necrotic Orb to suit both Magicka and Stamina characters.

Necrotic Orb:

Project a globe of annihilation that slowly floats forward, dealing 271 [Elemental] Damage every second to nearby enemies. An ally near the globe can activate the Combustion synergy, causing the orb to explode for 2959 [Elemental] Damage to nearby enemies and restore 3960 Magicka or Stamina to the ally, whichever maximum is higher. Damage type depends on currently equipped weapon.
Stamina Weapons: Disease Damage
Destruction Staff: Flame, Shock or Frost Damage
Restoration Staff: No longer deals damage and heals for a greater amount instead.

Energy Orb:
Resource return from synergy is increased by 10%. You can activate your own synergy but you don’t gain resources from your own orbs.

Mystic Orb:
Only deals Magic Damage but the damage is increased.

This way all builds can benefit from the skill and changes to class skills are unnecessary.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

This is an old post but I felt I needed to respond. Sorcs don’t need their Dark Magic skills changing to Shock and Warden’s don’t need their Animals changing to Frost. Magic builds are thing and the above changes would kill those builds on those classes.

If you want more Shock or Frost abilities then either third morphs on class skills or requesting changes to some guild skill morphs would be better. Furthermore Warden Winter Embrace could have some of its skills be more offensive in nature such as Slab and Frozen Gate.

Changing these morphs to damage focused morphs would be a start. Then simply change Entropy and Structured in mages guild to deal Frost Damage and have Major Sorcery baseline. Degeneration can stay as the Magic morph or perhaps a Shock Morph.

Finally rework Necrotic Orb to suit both Magicka and Stamina characters.

Necrotic Orb:

Project a globe of annihilation that slowly floats forward, dealing 271 [Elemental] Damage every second to nearby enemies. An ally near the globe can activate the Combustion synergy, causing the orb to explode for 2959 [Elemental] Damage to nearby enemies and restore 3960 Magicka or Stamina to the ally, whichever maximum is higher. Damage type depends on currently equipped weapon.
Stamina Weapons: Disease Damage
Destruction Staff: Flame, Shock or Frost Damage
Restoration Staff: No longer deals damage and heals for a greater amount instead.

Energy Orb:
Resource return from synergy is increased by 10%. You can activate your own synergy but you don’t gain resources from your own orbs.

Mystic Orb:
Only deals Magic Damage but the damage is increased.

This way all builds can benefit from the skill and changes to class skills are unnecessary.

what you suggest in terms of 3rd morphs is far more work than you realise and while i'd love to see it, it's just not a practical or realistic solution for this at the moment, not to mention, another balancing nightmare. When it comes to specifically magicka warden, we actually need deep fissure to deal frost damage. Because it helps out these builds significantly, and better yet, works very well with existing class design and doesn't really lose much at all. It is a major part of our class damage rotation and yet, it and the other skills we have are magic. not all of them need to be frost, but if they were it would be a massive help. The only one at this point in time that 100% needs to deal frost damage is deep fissure. Just having a few frost damage skills in winter's embrace would help, for sure, but it also ignores that deep fissure is literally the core of our class and our design is based around applying chilled and using frost damage, and now especially so, that there are a couple of sets that incentivise running a lot of frost damage, as opposed to just one that suggests running all magic damage, which there are already full magic damage based classes like nightblade and templar for.

CleymenZero

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

i dunno man, just sounds like literally everything becomes fire damage at that point.

I don't claim the change would instantly eliminate fire's lead. Just that it would make specializing more viable than it currently is for those of us who'd like to.

regardless, i think that some classes and skills should remain the damage type they are. especially now that overcharged is a thing, i think magic now definitely is warranted for certain classes. but warden honestly doesn't need a split focus when it really has something going with frost. sometimes it's nice to pick a skill and rely on it's damage type for a set, or status effect.

I tried the set on PTS as a dot build with frost clench as a semi-spammable. I was running double ice with infused frost glyph backbar and reach 84k without the hunter's pants. That's over 2-3 parses because I haven't had time to test more.

I also tried with arftic blast because it did more damage than a spammable over its course.

The issue with Arctic blast is its cost and with Warden sustain not being that great to begin with, it wasn't viable. It otherwise would've been great.

So for frost damage, frost clench is a decent dot, frost wall is pretty decent with that setup, frost glyph is a good source of damage and good proc for chilled status, Winter's Revenge is the second strongest AoE dot in the game after twisted path, Arctic blast would be great but it's too expensive...

So yeah, not enough frost damage sources but definitely workable.