The Frostbite set and the problems it faces.

ESO_Nightingale

SimonThesis wrote: »

I think the main problem with the frostbite set is that Ice furnace and other higher consistent damage sets already exist. I think they need to either increase the numbers of this set or make it like Elf bane where the duration of Ice dots, minor brittle, and chilled are increased by 5 seconds.

For everyone complaining about Ice Warden skills remember that they are mainly a PVP class. Frozen Device is used to as a ranged pull and is often used to pull people outside of ball groups or to prevent enemies from going into towers. The frozen retreat morph is used by ball groupers to save someone falling behind. The Northern storm morph is used to give the whole group major protection so the group can survive pushing into a breach with lots of siege aoes. It also gives max magicka so you hit harder and don't run out of resources. Winters revenge is used as an ice aoe to do damage on flags or its used on breaches to give enemies a 30% snare and apply chilled/minor brittle.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

When it comes to what you said about frostbite i totally agree.

just because frozen device deals frost damage and is in the winter's embrace line doesn't mean that we are going to use the skill in pve, or even in pvp. it's not a good damaging skill at all, and messes up our damage combos. it's only mainly useful for niche support builds or PvE tanks. But i haven't even seen anyone use the skill at all in the last 3 years of PvP. Winter's Revenge is fine, we never even mentioned buffing it.

but yeah, frozen device has nothing to do with making our main damage rotational skills actually work with our class by applying our crit buff.

SimonThesis

Every decent pvp Magdps Ice warden build Ive ever seen has Frozen Device on the bar. It is one of the go-to skills to use against ball groups. Its often used to pull enemies so then you can immobilize them with either unstable wall of frost or frost clench. In pvp if you can pull someone then immobilize them they are much easier to kill. Its also often frequently put in front of tower entrances to pull tower trolls and ball groupers as they try to go into the tower. I agree the damage output is very low, but thats not its function. Its a great utility skill in cyrodiil pvp and it is frequently used in Gray Host.

ESO_Nightingale

SimonThesis wrote: »

Every decent pvp Magdps Ice warden build Ive ever seen has Frozen Device on the bar. It is one of the go-to skills to use against ball groups. Its often used to pull enemies so then you can immobilize them with either unstable wall of frost or frost clench. In pvp if you can pull someone then immobilize them they are much easier to kill. Its also often frequently put in front of tower entrances to pull tower trolls and ball groupers as they try to go into the tower. I agree the damage output is very low, but thats not its function. Its a great utility skill in pvp and it is frequently used in Gray Host.

you definitely don't play on the same server that i do lol. and it also doesn't reflect battlegrounds where no warden i have ever seen has used that skill in a long time.
Regardless. the argument really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. pve frost damage wardens certainly don't use a tank skill nor should they. because it's a tank skill. and in pvp it's purely group based serving little benefit for the caster itself as it takes time to arm, is hard to use and ultimately can disrupt the shalks combo.

ANewHand

SimonThesis wrote: »

Every decent pvp Magdps Ice warden build Ive ever seen has Frozen Device on the bar.

Just a question, why would you take Device over Retreat if you play in group PvP? Retreat does the same job of pulling/immobilizing enemy players but you also have the option to help group members with the synergy.

Frozen Device only applies Major Maim for 4 seconds on one (1) enemy who happens to walk on the trap. If you really need that 10% damage debuff why not just have a tank with Void Bash which applies AOE Major Maim for 10 seconds?

ESO_Nightingale

ANewHand wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

Every decent pvp Magdps Ice warden build Ive ever seen has Frozen Device on the bar.

Just a question, why would you take Device over Retreat if you play in group PvP? Retreat does the same job of pulling/immobilizing enemy players but you also have the option to help group members with the synergy.

Frozen Device only applies Major Maim for 4 seconds on one (1) enemy who happens to walk on the trap. If you really need that 10% damage debuff why not just have a tank with Void Bash which applies AOE Major Maim for 10 seconds?

The group synergy has a tiny range and i think most people would rather take less damage for a couple of seconds than use a synergy that doesn't do a whole lot. I mean, damn, i wouldn't even use that skill at all.

karios525

You guys are all pvpers from the sounds of it. Hie many years were magden bottom of the dps heap, until the magcro xd wardens are effectively the ranger/ druid class, so yes keeping skillines separate IS better. Passives are finally spot on, as I said before rework or replace the more useless ice skills and ice destructo staffs. Since when have cliff racers ever had ice damage when fighting them, as an example nor any of the others, so even from a role playing point of view this conversation is ludricous at best. Want more identify run winter born and ice furnace. Plus magic damage does inflict a status now giving us minor magicka steal which helps a little with sustain. All your moaning will get you is more nerfs in the future as we all know zos don't play their own game,so good job

ESO_Nightingale

karios525 wrote: »

You guys are all pvpers from the sounds of it. Hie many years were magden bottom of the dps heap, until the magcro xd wardens are effectively the ranger/ druid class, so yes keeping skillines separate IS better. Passives are finally spot on, as I said before rework or replace the more useless ice skills and ice destructo staffs. Since when have cliff racers ever had ice damage when fighting them, as an example nor any of the others, so even from a role playing point of view this conversation is ludricous at best. Want more identify run winter born and ice furnace. Plus magic damage does inflict a status now giving us minor magicka steal which helps a little with sustain. All your moaning will get you is more nerfs in the future as we all know zos don't play their own game,so good job

I don't think we agree with your point of view. we've explained everything already several times. You're entitled to your opinion. And it's easily justifiable via the lore which, again, we have explained several times, but a small group of you guys keep ignoring that.

emilyhyoyeon

karios525 wrote: »

You guys are all pvpers from the sounds of it. Hie many years were magden bottom of the dps heap, until the magcro xd wardens are effectively the ranger/ druid class, so yes keeping skillines separate IS better. Passives are finally spot on, as I said before rework or replace the more useless ice skills and ice destructo staffs. Since when have cliff racers ever had ice damage when fighting them, as an example nor any of the others, so even from a role playing point of view this conversation is ludricous at best. Want more identify run winter born and ice furnace. Plus magic damage does inflict a status now giving us minor magicka steal which helps a little with sustain. All your moaning will get you is more nerfs in the future as we all know zos don't play their own game,so good job

Making the mag morphs in the animal line do frost damage instead of magic damage will not change the druid identity. I would not argue that the type of magical damage that a druid's summons do effects the druid identity in any meaningful way in the context of the ESO warden.

The type of magic damage that these skills do is effectively invisible (unless the player runs a set like warmaiden, in which case it's still visually invisible at least).

The only point you mentioned that has any weight is magic damage proccing magicka steal. Personally I would be ok with just shalks and cliffracer doing frost damage (change the names to frozen fissure and frozen cliff racer, respectively). I'm also completely on board with reworking at least one morph of force shock to do single element damage based on the wielded staff, thus creating ice/fire/shock spammables open to any class.

I think it's really important for there to be at least one spammable for each of the three main destruction element types for element based sets like frostbite to be reasonably viable.

ESO_Nightingale

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

You guys are all pvpers from the sounds of it. Hie many years were magden bottom of the dps heap, until the magcro xd wardens are effectively the ranger/ druid class, so yes keeping skillines separate IS better. Passives are finally spot on, as I said before rework or replace the more useless ice skills and ice destructo staffs. Since when have cliff racers ever had ice damage when fighting them, as an example nor any of the others, so even from a role playing point of view this conversation is ludricous at best. Want more identify run winter born and ice furnace. Plus magic damage does inflict a status now giving us minor magicka steal which helps a little with sustain. All your moaning will get you is more nerfs in the future as we all know zos don't play their own game,so good job

Making the mag morphs in the animal line do frost damage instead of magic damage will not change the druid identity. I would not argue that the type of magical damage that a druid's summons do effects the druid identity in any meaningful way in the context of the ESO warden.

The type of magic damage that these skills do is effectively invisible (unless the player runs a set like warmaiden, in which case it's still visually invisible at least).

The only point you mentioned that has any weight is magic damage proccing magicka steal. Personally I would be ok with just shalks and cliffracer doing frost damage (change the names to frozen fissure and frozen cliff racer, respectively). I'm also completely on board with reworking at least one morph of force shock to do single element damage based on the wielded staff, thus creating ice/fire/shock spammables open to any class.

I think it's really important for there to be at least one spammable for each of the three main destruction element types for element based sets like frostbite to be reasonably viable.

I definitely agree. We don't need to change all of the damage types. But Deep Fissure(especially), then Screaming Cliff Racer are the most important to change.

emilyhyoyeon

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

You guys are all pvpers from the sounds of it. Hie many years were magden bottom of the dps heap, until the magcro xd wardens are effectively the ranger/ druid class, so yes keeping skillines separate IS better. Passives are finally spot on, as I said before rework or replace the more useless ice skills and ice destructo staffs. Since when have cliff racers ever had ice damage when fighting them, as an example nor any of the others, so even from a role playing point of view this conversation is ludricous at best. Want more identify run winter born and ice furnace. Plus magic damage does inflict a status now giving us minor magicka steal which helps a little with sustain. All your moaning will get you is more nerfs in the future as we all know zos don't play their own game,so good job

Making the mag morphs in the animal line do frost damage instead of magic damage will not change the druid identity. I would not argue that the type of magical damage that a druid's summons do effects the druid identity in any meaningful way in the context of the ESO warden.

The type of magic damage that these skills do is effectively invisible (unless the player runs a set like warmaiden, in which case it's still visually invisible at least).

The only point you mentioned that has any weight is magic damage proccing magicka steal. Personally I would be ok with just shalks and cliffracer doing frost damage (change the names to frozen fissure and frozen cliff racer, respectively). I'm also completely on board with reworking at least one morph of force shock to do single element damage based on the wielded staff, thus creating ice/fire/shock spammables open to any class.

I think it's really important for there to be at least one spammable for each of the three main destruction element types for element based sets like frostbite to be reasonably viable.

I definitely agree. We don't need to change all of the damage types. But Deep Fissure(especially), then Screaming Cliff Racer are the most important to change.

Could also buff magwarden sustain so that a change to frost damage in the animal skills (and losing potential magicka steal if I'm understanding it correctly) won't be an issue in that regard

ESO_Nightingale

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

You guys are all pvpers from the sounds of it. Hie many years were magden bottom of the dps heap, until the magcro xd wardens are effectively the ranger/ druid class, so yes keeping skillines separate IS better. Passives are finally spot on, as I said before rework or replace the more useless ice skills and ice destructo staffs. Since when have cliff racers ever had ice damage when fighting them, as an example nor any of the others, so even from a role playing point of view this conversation is ludricous at best. Want more identify run winter born and ice furnace. Plus magic damage does inflict a status now giving us minor magicka steal which helps a little with sustain. All your moaning will get you is more nerfs in the future as we all know zos don't play their own game,so good job

Making the mag morphs in the animal line do frost damage instead of magic damage will not change the druid identity. I would not argue that the type of magical damage that a druid's summons do effects the druid identity in any meaningful way in the context of the ESO warden.

The type of magic damage that these skills do is effectively invisible (unless the player runs a set like warmaiden, in which case it's still visually invisible at least).

The only point you mentioned that has any weight is magic damage proccing magicka steal. Personally I would be ok with just shalks and cliffracer doing frost damage (change the names to frozen fissure and frozen cliff racer, respectively). I'm also completely on board with reworking at least one morph of force shock to do single element damage based on the wielded staff, thus creating ice/fire/shock spammables open to any class.

I think it's really important for there to be at least one spammable for each of the three main destruction element types for element based sets like frostbite to be reasonably viable.

I definitely agree. We don't need to change all of the damage types. But Deep Fissure(especially), then Screaming Cliff Racer are the most important to change.

Could also buff magwarden sustain so that a change to frost damage in the animal skills (and losing potential magicka steal if I'm understanding it correctly) won't be an issue in that regard

Well i mean, it's just minor magickasteal. Something that is easily applied by many mag classes and therefore magic damage is one of the most common damage types in the game. In PvE it has 100% uptime because of ele drain and classes that have Direct St magic damage, in PvP the effect that minor magickasteal has, isn't huge, while it isn't nothing exactly, it's definitely okay to lose.
Frost, on the other hand is very rare and chilled and glacial presence are quite important. So even losing fetcher and bear's magic damage for frost instead wouldn't really be that much of a loss at all either and probably even a net positive, but those skills are no-where near as necessary as deep fissure and scr for their types being changed.

Sandman929

SimonThesis wrote: »

Every decent pvp Magdps Ice warden build Ive ever seen has Frozen Device on the bar. It is one of the go-to skills to use against ball groups. Its often used to pull enemies so then you can immobilize them with either unstable wall of frost or frost clench. In pvp if you can pull someone then immobilize them they are much easier to kill. Its also often frequently put in front of tower entrances to pull tower trolls and ball groupers as they try to go into the tower. I agree the damage output is very low, but thats not its function. Its a great utility skill in cyrodiil pvp and it is frequently used in Gray Host.

I gotta question that too. It's like saying every decent MagDK has chains because they can pull someone out of a group...just not the case.

ESO_Nightingale

Sandman929 wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

Every decent pvp Magdps Ice warden build Ive ever seen has Frozen Device on the bar. It is one of the go-to skills to use against ball groups. Its often used to pull enemies so then you can immobilize them with either unstable wall of frost or frost clench. In pvp if you can pull someone then immobilize them they are much easier to kill. Its also often frequently put in front of tower entrances to pull tower trolls and ball groupers as they try to go into the tower. I agree the damage output is very low, but thats not its function. Its a great utility skill in cyrodiil pvp and it is frequently used in Gray Host.

I gotta question that too. It's like saying every decent MagDK has chains because they can pull someone out of a group...just not the case.

Exactly. And "shock sorc is good because it has streak"

emilyhyoyeon

I think this would also be a good time to remove the damage shield on the unstable blockade morph of wall of elements and give it a damage feature. Keep the damage shield on the elemental blockade morph only.

MashmalloMan

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I think this would also be a good time to remove the damage shield on the unstable blockade morph of wall of elements and give it a damage feature. Keep the damage shield on the elemental blockade morph only.

While I like the intent, it won't fix the imbalance. Fire blockade giving a damage bonus to burning enemies should just flat out be replaced, along with the 8% single target buff (8% aoe for shock too). Frost blockade offering a ranged direct damage shield and shock blockade offering potential for off balance have no direct impact on dps, so they quite literally will always fall behind. It's better to adjust the problem, rather than work around it.

Reasons why to pick a fire staff:

1. 8% single target damage, for most builds your dps will mostly be comprised of over 65% single target damage. AOE skills cost more and do less damage than single target counterparts, light attacks are single target and always appear as the top 3 damage components of any parse, along with your spammable and execute. The closest I've seen to being AOE damage focussed is Mag Templar, even then, it's not enough still because of Burning Light.
2. DK's +10% fire damage taken debuff, nothing available for shock or frost.
3. Encratis's Behemoth monster set debuff for +5% fire damage taken to enemies, nothing available for shock or frost.
4. Flame damages status effect is a 4second dot, shock and frost status effects gives a small damage proc (not even stronger than 1 tick from burning) and minor vulnerability/minor maim (5% damage taken/5% damage done), both debuffs will already be supplied by random skills available to most classes in their group composition, so they overlap and become redundant, where as the burning dot does not.
5. Close to absolutely no damage focussed shock or frost monster sets and you wouldn't want to use them anyway because of the above missing damage multipliers available to Fire damage.

Pretty sure I'm missing a few key examples that give flame damage an edge, but the above is why adjusting blockade will never really fix the issues present in the game since day 1.

Lets say they keep everything the same, with shock being whatever it's focussed on and ice being a more suportive/defensive damage type. Well then adjustments should be made for Sorcerer and Warden to be able to utilize these damage types in a damage capacity by unique passives, that push them above flame damage for at least those 2 classes.

I have a feeling this is ZOS's intention by not fixing the root of the issues proposed above, they're instead trying to offer Warden's a way of using frost as a damage type, while keeping it the same defensive/support based damage type for everyone else.

I mean look at what they've added to try and make frost damage work for Warden's, they continue to add to them, far beyond what other classes are capable of, because there is so much space to cover for Frost damage to actually be competitive:

1. Warden's 10% Ice damage. (Much higher than the 5% for Sorc or 6% aoe damage for DK).
2. 10% crit damage to chilled enemies.
3. Another 10% crit damage to chilled enemies via holding a Frost Staff for minor brittle.
4. 200% chance to cause status effects from the Winter's Embrace line.
5. x3-4 status effect chance from Winter's Revenge while also being one of, if not the strongest class based aoe dot in the game.
6. This new set (Frostbite).

I know OP and this whole thread is about Warden, but what does Sorc have in that avenue to prop Shock damage up. Not much, luckily Sorc is still a great dps class right now, so it doesn't matter, but their class identity is lacking all the same. They're more of a pet class right now, then a shock class, and the same could be said about some of the issues regarding Wardens.

1. +5% shock damage. Half the value of Warden's, but applies to about 50% of the class skills via pets, but also doesn't apply like warden's to the hardest hitting skills like Shalks/Curse/Frags/Spammables. Hell, Sorc's don't even slot their Shock Execute or AOE dot anymore because they're so weak.
2. +8% aoe damage with a shock staff. While it sounds strong, it doesn't apply to the majority of a sorcs toolkit, templars are the closest class to being able to utilize this.
3. Ilambris monster set, which does 50% as fire damage.
4. Maw, which is a pet item that does fire damage.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I think this would also be a good time to remove the damage shield on the unstable blockade morph of wall of elements and give it a damage feature. Keep the damage shield on the elemental blockade morph only.

While I like the intent, it won't fix the imbalance. Fire blockade giving a damage bonus to burning enemies should just flat out be replaced, along with the 8% single target buff (8% aoe for shock too). Frost blockade offering a ranged direct damage shield and shock blockade offering potential for off balance have no direct impact on dps, so they quite literally will always fall behind. It's better to adjust the problem, rather than work around it.

Reasons why to pick a fire staff:

1. 8% single target damage, for most builds your dps will mostly be comprised of over 65% single target damage. AOE skills cost more and do less damage than single target counterparts, light attacks are single target and always appear as the top 3 damage components of any parse, along with your spammable and execute. The closest I've seen to being AOE damage focussed is Mag Templar, even then, it's not enough still because of Burning Light.
2. DK's +10% fire damage taken debuff, nothing available for shock or frost.
3. Encratis's Behemoth monster set debuff for +5% fire damage taken to enemies, nothing available for shock or frost.
4. Flame damages status effect is a 4second dot, shock and frost status effects gives a small damage proc (not even stronger than 1 tick from burning) and minor vulnerability/minor maim (5% damage taken/5% damage done), both debuffs will already be supplied by random skills available to most classes in their group composition, so they overlap and become redundant, where as the burning dot does not.
5. Close to absolutely no damage focussed shock or frost monster sets and you wouldn't want to use them anyway because of the above missing damage multipliers available to Fire damage.

Pretty sure I'm missing a few key examples that give flame damage an edge, but the above is why adjusting blockade will never really fix the issues present in the game since day 1.

Lets say they keep everything the same, with shock being whatever it's focussed on and ice being a more suportive/defensive damage type. Well then adjustments should be made for Sorcerer and Warden to be able to utilize these damage types in a damage capacity by unique passives, that push them above flame damage for at least those 2 classes.

I have a feeling this is ZOS's intention by not fixing the root of the issues proposed above, they're instead trying to offer Warden's a way of using frost as a damage type, while keeping it the same defensive/support based damage type for everyone else.

I mean look at what they've added to try and make frost damage work for Warden's, they continue to add to them, far beyond what other classes are capable of, because there is so much space to cover for Frost damage to actually be competitive:

1. Warden's 10% Ice damage. (Much higher than the 5% for Sorc or 6% aoe damage for DK).
2. 10% crit damage to chilled enemies.
3. Another 10% crit damage to chilled enemies via holding a Frost Staff for minor brittle.
4. 200% chance to cause status effects from the Winter's Embrace line.
5. x3-4 status effect chance from Winter's Revenge while also being one of, if not the strongest class based aoe dot in the game.
6. This new set (Frostbite).

I know OP and this whole thread is about Warden, but what does Sorc have in that avenue to prop Shock damage up. Not much, luckily Sorc is still a great dps class right now, so it doesn't matter, but their class identity is lacking all the same. They're more of a pet class right now, then a shock class, and the same could be said about some of the issues regarding Wardens.

1. +5% shock damage. Half the value of Warden's, but applies to about 50% of the class skills via pets, but also doesn't apply like warden's to the hardest hitting skills like Shalks/Curse/Frags/Spammables. Hell, Sorc's don't even slot their Shock Execute or AOE dot anymore because they're so weak.
2. +8% aoe damage with a shock staff. While it sounds strong, it doesn't apply to the majority of a sorcs toolkit, templars are the closest class to being able to utilize this.
3. Ilambris monster set, which does 50% as fire damage.
4. Maw, which is a pet item that does fire damage.

I totally agree, by adding Encratis, all they did was further show how much they don't care about the disparity between frost, shock and fire. I also just don't understand why they decided to give the destruction staff execute (despite how bad it is) to the fire staff. it is like they don't even care that almost every magdps runs Fire/Fire or DW/Fire. +20% burning damage to enemies for the wall is silly for how much extra fire damage the enemies take.

Sets like Frostbite are great until you realise they're actually a kick in the teeth because ZOS balanced it to be only as good as a crafted set that is better because it has 100% uptime on it's bonuses that effects healing as well.

They really need to take a look at the skills and morphs. Even though i know they won't do so for a while.

The fire impulse execute needs to be made better, but be given to all morphs as opposed to just fire, the burning requirement is just silly and the tiny bonus damage being the execute effect is stupid, i'm okay for the bonus damage not being huge but it should at least be 25% better than a spammable at 0% hp and not have a requirement other than low health on the enemy.
Frost Impulse's minor protection is so bad that it's simply insulting because no tank wants to use the skill, and dps who are looking to use it don't care at all about such an insignificant effect and would like literally anything better that is dps focused.
Shock Impulse's effect is nice and all, but making it an execute would be great for options.

Icy Rage's effect needs to be more uptime similar to Thunderous Rage, reducing the cost would make it a lot better and definitely usable. currently, a guarenteed immobilise is redundant because of frost wall's chilled effect.

Frost Clench's effect is okay but the taunt for the destruction staff being on it was always a bad idea from the get-go. no-one wants it there. elemental susceptibility is a far better target at 28 meters and applying major breach. add a cost to the morph and have it be useful rather than leaving it as a niche morph only good for testing.

Destructive Reach as a Damage Over time ability is simply just lacking as it lacks the utility and damage of entropy and soul trap and the disparity is even greater for class DoTs. If they did something interesting like more damage against an enemy with the respective status effect, that would be great.

Wall Of Frost and Shock are just underwhelming compared to wall of fire's +20% damage done to burning enemies and overall +15% damage done through group play.
Since the +10% damage against off balance targets cp effect was removed, the signature effect of wall of shock has become simply underpowered. shock wall needs to do something else useful. additionally, since frost dps want to exist but are forced to run supportive morphs on their destruction staff skills, Unstable Wall of Frost's effect is redundant, because you're constantly re-applying the wall anyway, removing the current shield and immobilise but only from that morph would be a lot better, allowing unstable wall to be the same cost as the other elements, and allowing it's chilled based effect to work on some other type of effect that is useful for it's own damage.

The passives are still pretty meh. it would be really nice if they moved magicka block cost to the CP tree so that we could use the tri focus passive. but it's still the only one in the game that not everyone takes, because it hurts the player. Penetrating Magic is alright, but as opposed to a flat amount of penetration, it only works after the penetration is already calculated and only for destruction staff skills, when it could be passive crit chance or pentration instead.

ESO_Nightingale

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I think this would also be a good time to remove the damage shield on the unstable blockade morph of wall of elements and give it a damage feature. Keep the damage shield on the elemental blockade morph only.

I definitely agree. I'd honestly even say unstable's chilled immobilise could be swapped for something else. But they could also just nerf flame wall's bonus damage to 5% to bring it down a peg.

ESO_Nightingale

Hello everyone especially including @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_Liforce. This PTS incremental looks fantastic and seems to clear up a lot of issues with the game going into next patch.

However (and unfortunately), again, After doing some parse testing on 7.0.2, Julianos is still beating Frostbite. The 2% increase was simply not enough to make this set worthwhile for us Frost Wardens.


My parse results are by no means perfect at all, but i'll show you what i got.
Julianos (Top)
Frostbite (Bottom)

i had more lag and therefore, mistakes on my Julianos parse. But even still, it outperformed frostbite. i did not make any other changes to my build.

You may have seen this post and the feedback we gave on the other posts about it, but this is problematic because julianos has no proc conditions whatsoever buffs all spell damage, and buffs healing as well. When frostbite relies on chilled procs, buffs specific damage types and still manages to have roughly the same level of power as that crafted set even after a 2% buff, when it should realistically deal a good bit more damage than that due to it's status as a specialisation and stat proc set.

It still has it's key fundamental problem which is, that Frost, and Regular Magicka Warden's main damage rotation on the frontbar still consists of mainly Magic Damage skills, which is very unhelpful for our class design even outside of building specifically for frost, It wants to proc chilled as much as possible and deal a lot of frost damage for the glacial presence passive, yet it still cannot do this that effectively yet, Winter's Revenge provides a significant portion of our chilled proc, but is rarely used at all in PvP as it is a ground AoE DoT. but it is still our only real reliable frost damage class skill in pve. It would be amazing of we could bring sets like frostbite, ysgramor's birthright and elemental sucession into the spotlight for our class, but unfortunately this is just not the case right now unless we recieve changes to help solve this problem.

@YandereGirlfriend has suggested multiple times, that the frost damage increase should be at about 12%. This would likely be enough to see this set be useful, for now during this PTS cycle. However, this should not be the only change that should be considered for this.

Frost Damage animal companions skills, specifically Deep Fissure, and Screaming Cliff Racer would genuinely make huge strides to help fix some class design via chilled application, especially in groups, but also, by the skills dealing purely frost damage, they could recieve full bonuses from the before mentioned sets. As those sets only increase your frost damage done specifically, meaning skills like force pulse do not recieve full bonuses, but only partially.

If you don't already have plans for this damage type rework, i hope that you would consider it soon in the next few patches this year. As it would be a massive help for our playstyle.

The support for this change has been shown by many people via, this post, the poll, as seen here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/571472/should-warden-animal-companions-deal-frost-damage-instead-of-magic-damage/p1

and the official feedback forums.

The recent support you have given this archetype in the last year has not gone unnoticed and we are very thankful for that. so, we ask that you please continue on helping us with our set, and damage skill problems so that our frost damage dealer archetype may finally recieve the full recognition and power that it has needed for so long. Thank you.

regime211

They just need to add a more stronger ice Spammable or something for ice mage so we don't have to utilize deep fissure. Heck get rid of Frost gate and turn it into something useful so we can REALLY play a ice mage and not rely on proc sets, or are animal skill lines.

Finedaible

The most recent buff to the set in patch 7.0.2 is a nice gesture, but I see a potential problem when we take into account their spreadsheet balance philosophy. Notice how in the first patch of this PTS (7.0.0) they nerfed the Blooddrinker set because they changed more skills to deal bleed damage?

Blooddrinker: Reduced the damage bonus for this set to 20%, down from 33%, now that more abilities deal Bleed Damage including non-Damage over Time attacks.

What do you think will happen once they start buffing or adding more frost damage skills? It is obvious they will nerf this set again when that happens. They have always penalized players for wanting to specialize their builds, it would upset the spreadsheet idol.

ESO_Nightingale

Finedaible wrote: »

The most recent buff to the set in patch 7.0.2 is a nice gesture, but I see a potential problem when we take into account their spreadsheet balance philosophy. Notice how in the first patch of this PTS (7.0.0) they nerfed the Blooddrinker set because they changed more skills to deal bleed damage?

Blooddrinker: Reduced the damage bonus for this set to 20%, down from 33%, now that more abilities deal Bleed Damage including non-Damage over Time attacks.

What do you think will happen once they start buffing or adding more frost damage skills? It is obvious they will nerf this set again when that happens. They have always penalized players for wanting to specialize their builds, it would upset the spreadsheet idol.

Well, i think it's fine that they nerfed blooddrinker it was that powerful because there were barely any bleeds. And now there are spammables that deal bleed damage. Frostbite still doesn't come close to blooddrinker.

ESO_Nightingale

regime211 wrote: »

They just need to add a more stronger ice Spammable or something for ice mage so we don't have to utilize deep fissure. Heck get rid of Frost gate and turn it into something useful so we can REALLY play a ice mage and not rely on proc sets, or are animal skill lines.

That won't fix everything. A rework to frozen gate would be nice but it doesn't fix the fundamental issue that our main rotational skills are animal companions skills that deal magic damage.

LeHarrt91

So the set was buffed by 2%, is that enough? not really due to the lack of usable abilities.

emilyhyoyeon

MashmalloMan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I think this would also be a good time to remove the damage shield on the unstable blockade morph of wall of elements and give it a damage feature. Keep the damage shield on the elemental blockade morph only.

While I like the intent, it won't fix the imbalance. Fire blockade giving a damage bonus to burning enemies should just flat out be replaced, along with the 8% single target buff (8% aoe for shock too). Frost blockade offering a ranged direct damage shield and shock blockade offering potential for off balance have no direct impact on dps, so they quite literally will always fall behind. It's better to adjust the problem, rather than work around it.

Reasons why to pick a fire staff:

I've always wanted to go in that exact direction but whenever I've tried to fight for essentially all the stuff you go on to list, especially an ancient knowledge passive rework, I've gotten shut down so I've kind of given up pushing for a needed rework of destruction staves

ESO_Nightingale

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

So the set was buffed by 2%, is that enough? not really due to the lack of usable abilities.

Yes, it's not enough. I tested it as soon as the servers went up. The set is still worse than julianos. Which is really unfortunate. If it was buffed by a further 4% frost damage done, i believe that this would secure the set's future, if we get frost damage animal companions skills, and allow it to parse a little bit higher than julianos even now.

YandereGirlfriend

Indeed, this minor buff was simply not enough and it absolutely was not what the players were looking for in terms of setting this set on the path toward actual viability.

The set is +12% Frost Damage or bust at this point. Anything less and you will always be better off using the same boring sets as every other DPS in the game, which is not only a travesty against this set's potential but it is also another heavy blow to our already limited build diversity as well as player power fantasies.

In a game with over 400 different sets, you know that when a Frost Warden is using the exact same sets as a Magicka Dragonknight, that something has gone horribly wrong with the game's itemization pipeline.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Indeed, this minor buff was simply not enough and it absolutely was not what the players were looking for in terms of setting this set on the path toward actual viability.

The set is +12% Frost Damage or bust at this point. Anything less and you will always be better off using the same boring sets as every other DPS in the game, which is not only a travesty against this set's potential but it is also another heavy blow to our already limited build diversity as well as player power fantasies.

In a game with over 400 different sets, you know that when a Frost Warden is using the exact same sets as a Magicka Dragonknight, that something has gone horribly wrong with the game's itemization pipeline.

in fairness, they are looking at it and buffed it in the area we suggested. it's just that the buff was not enough to garner any good results.

ESO_Nightingale

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I think this would also be a good time to remove the damage shield on the unstable blockade morph of wall of elements and give it a damage feature. Keep the damage shield on the elemental blockade morph only.

While I like the intent, it won't fix the imbalance. Fire blockade giving a damage bonus to burning enemies should just flat out be replaced, along with the 8% single target buff (8% aoe for shock too). Frost blockade offering a ranged direct damage shield and shock blockade offering potential for off balance have no direct impact on dps, so they quite literally will always fall behind. It's better to adjust the problem, rather than work around it.

Reasons why to pick a fire staff:

I've always wanted to go in that exact direction but whenever I've tried to fight for essentially all the stuff you go on to list, especially an ancient knowledge passive rework, I've gotten shut down so I've kind of given up pushing for a needed rework of destruction staves

unfortunately since they recently did a bunch of work on it, i really don't see them touching the destruction staff soon.

SimonThesis

This small buff definitely wasn't enough. The frost bite set is still weaker than julianos, I tested it as well. I feel like this miniscule buff was just to appease the population but its not nearly enough. Especially since a brand new overland set should not be weaker than a several year old crafted set. The main problem here is that there are already better alternatives Julianos and Ice Furnace are still much stronger sets. This set either needs a much more considerable buff to be viable and/or Deep Fissure needs to be changed to Frost Damage.


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Kesstryl

OMG are you guys trying to get Julianos nerfed? Didn't you learn anything when they nerfed Iceheart to sell Mother Ciannait? Stop ruining stuff guys!