The Frostbite set and the problems it faces.

ESO_Nightingale

Runefang wrote: »

Massive support for this. Classes lack identity at the moment in general so anything to hone in on that class fantasy for a class is a good idea.

I’d love the game to balance the damage types rather than fire pulling so far ahead. Consider that as soon as you start switching from fire to frost skills you lose the benefits of the MagDKs debuff and Encratis debuff so in PvE any buffs to frost (or lightning or magic) need to be more generous given there is no balance there currently.

yeah, identity is really bad right now especially on warden. after the standardisation of many things, we need more skill support via damage type changes, a rework or 2 and overall an increase in inter-class synergy. along with a buffed up version of frostbite. if the damage gets too high we can trade off some of our passive raw damage effects. because we have way too many, while having not enough quantity and quality of actual damage skills.

ESO_Nightingale

Hey guys i have some previously unknown information to share about the set.

This set seemingly does effect ALL frost damage, unlike how the tooltip states.

taking off my frostbite gloves(enchanted with max magicka) decreased the value of iceheart(which does not scale with max magicka) and the glyph(which only scales with damage % increases), And, previously as has been said before, the light attacks.

Additionally, since the tooltip is incorrect, it doesn't "buff the skills that deal frost damage". it buffs frost damage done. This means specifically, that with a skill like Force Pulse, the only portion of this that is buffed, is the Frost Damage portion, instead of all of the elements. Meaning the skill is only buffed by about 2% specifically by this set. this exact situation is the same thing that happens with ysgramor's birthright, which also has an incorrect set description.

Given how this is currently working, and the set is performing as bad as it is, this gives us even more reason to buff this set and to change the animal companions skills to frost damage Because this set effects more things than it is supposed to yet is STILL performing this bad.

emilyhyoyeon

Runefang wrote: »

Massive support for this. Classes lack identity at the moment in general so anything to hone in on that class fantasy for a class is a good idea.

I’d love the game to balance the damage types rather than fire pulling so far ahead. Consider that as soon as you start switching from fire to frost skills you lose the benefits of the MagDKs debuff and Encratis debuff so in PvE any buffs to frost (or lightning or magic) need to be more generous given there is no balance there currently.

I completely agree with the destruction elemental balance thing.

I think I'm alone in this thought, but frankly I think the only damage perk fire should have over the other two is increased damage to burning targets. That would keep it way more in like with the damage difference perks between the three from previous games.
I think, for example, wardens doing more with ice than fire makes sense/should be. Same with sorcs and lightning. Don't want to divert the thread topic too much though

Noszet

At the very least they could revert the master destro to what it was before Greymoor to give us an actual ice (and shock) spammable.

CableBomb

Great post. Support.

ESO_Nightingale

CableBomb wrote: »

Great post. Support.

thanks!

zvavi

Excelsus wrote: »

The idea to rework Northern Storm into a true dps ult is a good one. Make it placeable. Remove major protection and the weird magicka burst. Have it apply major brittle with duration based on your max magicka to keep it from being dumped on tanks. Tada. A solid ice dps ult for magdens and a utility to keep them trial viable.

Rework frozen retreat. No longer teleports enemies. Enemies within the radius take 5-10% increased damage from frost skills, scales off your offensive stats.

You are underestimating the amount of max magicka I can stack on my tank.

ESO_Nightingale

zvavi wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

The idea to rework Northern Storm into a true dps ult is a good one. Make it placeable. Remove major protection and the weird magicka burst. Have it apply major brittle with duration based on your max magicka to keep it from being dumped on tanks. Tada. A solid ice dps ult for magdens and a utility to keep them trial viable.

Rework frozen retreat. No longer teleports enemies. Enemies within the radius take 5-10% increased damage from frost skills, scales off your offensive stats.

You are underestimating the amount of max magicka I can stack on my tank.

yeah pretty sure we can already push 50k on regular pvp magden.

Tivnael

100% agree

emilyhyoyeon

I wouldn't be bothered at all if frostbite was more powerful of a set on ice/ice warden than medusa, false god, etc, since I remember seeing some discussion on its damage potential relative to other standard mag sets.

SidraWillowsky

Noszet wrote: »

At the very least they could revert the master destro to what it was before Greymoor to give us an actual ice (and shock) spammable.

Yes please! I don't know where to put the taunt on a frost staff if tanks are going to use it, but the elemental spammable ain't it.

Anyway, interesting update posted above on the set. Any word from ZOS on whether some of these sets are working as intended in the PTS? I've heard that some aren't applying correctly...

karios525

Leave the animal companions alone, seriously guys, change yet more builds will break, magic damage makes sense. Aside from revenge and blast I agree we need more ice abilities so add more abilities to that line, but leave animal companions alone.

YandereGirlfriend

karios525 wrote: »

Leave the animal companions alone, seriously guys, change yet more builds will break, magic damage makes sense. Aside from revenge and blast I agree we need more ice abilities so add more abilities to that line, but leave animal companions alone.

Hard disagree.

Generic "Magic" damage undermines class identity where it isn't already the foundation of a class (e.g. Templar and Nightblade vs. Sorcerer and Warden). Wardens are meant to be THE Frost Damage class (as Sorcerers are meant to the Shock Damage class) so it makes little sense that they have generic Magic Damage skills as well a a generic Magic Damage passive. Magic Damage is part of precisely nobody's power fantasy but Cryomancy is a core archetype of the Elder Scrolls series.

Increasing class specialization and class identity is an unmitigated good. We've had enough of the boring class homogenization of the prior several years.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

Leave the animal companions alone, seriously guys, change yet more builds will break, magic damage makes sense. Aside from revenge and blast I agree we need more ice abilities so add more abilities to that line, but leave animal companions alone.

Hard disagree.

Generic "Magic" damage undermines class identity where it isn't already the foundation of a class (e.g. Templar and Nightblade vs. Sorcerer and Warden). Wardens are meant to be THE Frost Damage class (as Sorcerers are meant to the Shock Damage class) so it makes little sense that they have generic Magic Damage skills as well a a generic Magic Damage passive. Magic Damage is part of precisely nobody's power fantasy but Cryomancy is a core archetype of the Elder Scrolls series.

Increasing class specialization and class identity is an unmitigated good. We've had enough of the boring class homogenization of the prior several years.

yep, it doesn't actually brake anything which is a false argument, it makes the class have better synergy which it really lacks at the moment.

ESO_Nightingale

Noszet wrote: »

At the very least they could revert the master destro to what it was before Greymoor to give us an actual ice (and shock) spammable.

i hope in the future they continue to make more arena sets, but this time, bring back the old master destro. however, the problem with this is that you're still giving up a 2pc just in order to have a spammable, when you could instead just use Force Pulse or something like a reworked frost damage dive.

emilyhyoyeon

thinking of alternatives/more possibilites for ice damage abilities to help Frostbite:


I think a small rework of force shock would work well to bolster destruction elemental identity and help mag specs that don't havea good class spammable.

I think force shock should, instead of doing a bit of damage from the 3 elements, do the element damage of the staff you're using. Wielding a shock staff with force shock makes force shock do shock damage. Essentially, make it function like blockade, impulse, and reach/clench.

I know Nightingale for example would prefer it do all three damage types. Another possibility is keeping the three damage
types, but it does more damage with the element of the staff you're using than the other two.
ex. instead of doing 1000 fire 1000 ice 1000 shock, it does 300 fire 300 ice 3000 shock with a lightning staff.

Another possibility is one morph takes the single element type, one morph keeps all three.

I'd also be ok with applying this to elemental weapon instead, but because destruction staff already has abilities that take after the staff element, I think it makes the most sense with force shock.

Finedaible

I'm just sitting here wondering how the heck the 'beast tamer' class with nature and ice magic themes ended up with being the ideal class for a bleed build. Superb identity.

Runefang

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Noszet wrote: »

At the very least they could revert the master destro to what it was before Greymoor to give us an actual ice (and shock) spammable.

i hope in the future they continue to make more arena sets, but this time, bring back the old master destro. however, the problem with this is that you're still giving up a 2pc just in order to have a spammable, when you could instead just use Force Pulse or something like a reworked frost damage dive.

Force pulse as a tri-element attack was always a mistake in my opinion. It was the obvious way to give a spammable to each type.

ESO_Nightingale

Runefang wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Noszet wrote: »

At the very least they could revert the master destro to what it was before Greymoor to give us an actual ice (and shock) spammable.

i hope in the future they continue to make more arena sets, but this time, bring back the old master destro. however, the problem with this is that you're still giving up a 2pc just in order to have a spammable, when you could instead just use Force Pulse or something like a reworked frost damage dive.

Force pulse as a tri-element attack was always a mistake in my opinion. It was the obvious way to give a spammable to each type.

The good thing about it is that it's split damage type means it can proc burning and vulnerability. I do want a frost spammable. But at this point i think the best way to get it will be by reworking SCR.

ESO_Nightingale

Finedaible wrote: »

I'm just sitting here wondering how the heck the 'beast tamer' class with nature and ice magic themes ended up with being the ideal class for a bleed build. Superb identity.

The stamimals rip and tear :P

Dark_Lord_Kuro

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

The idea to rework Northern Storm into a true dps ult is a good one. Make it placeable. Remove major protection and the weird magicka burst. Have it apply major brittle with duration based on your max magicka to keep it from being dumped on tanks. Tada. A solid ice dps ult for magdens and a utility to keep them trial viable.

Rework frozen retreat. No longer teleports enemies. Enemies within the radius take 5-10% increased damage from frost skills, scales off your offensive stats.

I actually really enjoy the increased Max Magicka from Northern Storm but I completely agree with dropping the Major Protection in favor of something like Major Brittle. Have the Brittle effect work like Permafrost, with the first tick of damage automatically applying the effect. It should remain as a mobile AoE though as otherwise it is limited to being a strictly PvE ultimate and that is undesirable given the overall very limited number of ultimate choices in the game.

I like that idea for Frozen Retreat as well. The other idea that I've like has been as a Frost Damage version of Fire Rune. But the game does need a unique source of +Frost Damage taken in order to begin competing with the Flame Damage PvE monopoly.

Eye of Frost and Permafrost are already solid pvp mobile ults imo and major brittle would be less effective where people stack crit res, plus in pve the short range of northern storm would invalidate it on many boss fights like vAS.

Making a frost rune skill or changing frozen retreat into frost rune is a good idea. Similar to scalding rune, a small but long term dot with the ice damage buff. Not sure anyone actually uses frozen retreat beyond Craglorn shenanigans but the synergy could just be stacked on to frozen device, its already the superior chaining option.

The issue is that Permafrost is a tank ultimate that's used primarily for defense in PvP as its damage output is quite poor. Northern Storm is already used by many magDens in group play and losing that would leave an enormous hole in their kit. Major Brittle (as with Minor Brittle) is also very useful in PvP if you pair it with something like Mechanical Acuity. Stacking Critical Damage definitely isn't only a PvE pastime.

Exactly. We need to keep it centered on caster. If you want a ground casted aoe frost DoT, Icy Rage and Ice Comet are your options.

We could say the same about eye of frost

ESO_Nightingale

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

The idea to rework Northern Storm into a true dps ult is a good one. Make it placeable. Remove major protection and the weird magicka burst. Have it apply major brittle with duration based on your max magicka to keep it from being dumped on tanks. Tada. A solid ice dps ult for magdens and a utility to keep them trial viable.

Rework frozen retreat. No longer teleports enemies. Enemies within the radius take 5-10% increased damage from frost skills, scales off your offensive stats.

I actually really enjoy the increased Max Magicka from Northern Storm but I completely agree with dropping the Major Protection in favor of something like Major Brittle. Have the Brittle effect work like Permafrost, with the first tick of damage automatically applying the effect. It should remain as a mobile AoE though as otherwise it is limited to being a strictly PvE ultimate and that is undesirable given the overall very limited number of ultimate choices in the game.

I like that idea for Frozen Retreat as well. The other idea that I've like has been as a Frost Damage version of Fire Rune. But the game does need a unique source of +Frost Damage taken in order to begin competing with the Flame Damage PvE monopoly.

Eye of Frost and Permafrost are already solid pvp mobile ults imo and major brittle would be less effective where people stack crit res, plus in pve the short range of northern storm would invalidate it on many boss fights like vAS.

Making a frost rune skill or changing frozen retreat into frost rune is a good idea. Similar to scalding rune, a small but long term dot with the ice damage buff. Not sure anyone actually uses frozen retreat beyond Craglorn shenanigans but the synergy could just be stacked on to frozen device, its already the superior chaining option.

The issue is that Permafrost is a tank ultimate that's used primarily for defense in PvP as its damage output is quite poor. Northern Storm is already used by many magDens in group play and losing that would leave an enormous hole in their kit. Major Brittle (as with Minor Brittle) is also very useful in PvP if you pair it with something like Mechanical Acuity. Stacking Critical Damage definitely isn't only a PvE pastime.

Exactly. We need to keep it centered on caster. If you want a ground casted aoe frost DoT, Icy Rage and Ice Comet are your options.

We could say the same about eye of frost

Unless you use it in pvp you won't understand how useful the ultimate is as a centered on caster aoe. It should not change.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

The idea to rework Northern Storm into a true dps ult is a good one. Make it placeable. Remove major protection and the weird magicka burst. Have it apply major brittle with duration based on your max magicka to keep it from being dumped on tanks. Tada. A solid ice dps ult for magdens and a utility to keep them trial viable.

Rework frozen retreat. No longer teleports enemies. Enemies within the radius take 5-10% increased damage from frost skills, scales off your offensive stats.

I actually really enjoy the increased Max Magicka from Northern Storm but I completely agree with dropping the Major Protection in favor of something like Major Brittle. Have the Brittle effect work like Permafrost, with the first tick of damage automatically applying the effect. It should remain as a mobile AoE though as otherwise it is limited to being a strictly PvE ultimate and that is undesirable given the overall very limited number of ultimate choices in the game.

I like that idea for Frozen Retreat as well. The other idea that I've like has been as a Frost Damage version of Fire Rune. But the game does need a unique source of +Frost Damage taken in order to begin competing with the Flame Damage PvE monopoly.

Eye of Frost and Permafrost are already solid pvp mobile ults imo and major brittle would be less effective where people stack crit res, plus in pve the short range of northern storm would invalidate it on many boss fights like vAS.

Making a frost rune skill or changing frozen retreat into frost rune is a good idea. Similar to scalding rune, a small but long term dot with the ice damage buff. Not sure anyone actually uses frozen retreat beyond Craglorn shenanigans but the synergy could just be stacked on to frozen device, its already the superior chaining option.

The issue is that Permafrost is a tank ultimate that's used primarily for defense in PvP as its damage output is quite poor. Northern Storm is already used by many magDens in group play and losing that would leave an enormous hole in their kit. Major Brittle (as with Minor Brittle) is also very useful in PvP if you pair it with something like Mechanical Acuity. Stacking Critical Damage definitely isn't only a PvE pastime.

Exactly. We need to keep it centered on caster. If you want a ground casted aoe frost DoT, Icy Rage and Ice Comet are your options.

We could say the same about eye of frost

Unless you use it in pvp you won't understand how useful the ultimate is as a centered on caster aoe. It should not change.

And the opposite is much more useful in pve were most of the playerbase find their fun
They should just delete pvp at this point as the only thing it does is spoiling the fun of pve

ESO_Nightingale

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

The idea to rework Northern Storm into a true dps ult is a good one. Make it placeable. Remove major protection and the weird magicka burst. Have it apply major brittle with duration based on your max magicka to keep it from being dumped on tanks. Tada. A solid ice dps ult for magdens and a utility to keep them trial viable.

Rework frozen retreat. No longer teleports enemies. Enemies within the radius take 5-10% increased damage from frost skills, scales off your offensive stats.

I actually really enjoy the increased Max Magicka from Northern Storm but I completely agree with dropping the Major Protection in favor of something like Major Brittle. Have the Brittle effect work like Permafrost, with the first tick of damage automatically applying the effect. It should remain as a mobile AoE though as otherwise it is limited to being a strictly PvE ultimate and that is undesirable given the overall very limited number of ultimate choices in the game.

I like that idea for Frozen Retreat as well. The other idea that I've like has been as a Frost Damage version of Fire Rune. But the game does need a unique source of +Frost Damage taken in order to begin competing with the Flame Damage PvE monopoly.

Eye of Frost and Permafrost are already solid pvp mobile ults imo and major brittle would be less effective where people stack crit res, plus in pve the short range of northern storm would invalidate it on many boss fights like vAS.

Making a frost rune skill or changing frozen retreat into frost rune is a good idea. Similar to scalding rune, a small but long term dot with the ice damage buff. Not sure anyone actually uses frozen retreat beyond Craglorn shenanigans but the synergy could just be stacked on to frozen device, its already the superior chaining option.

The issue is that Permafrost is a tank ultimate that's used primarily for defense in PvP as its damage output is quite poor. Northern Storm is already used by many magDens in group play and losing that would leave an enormous hole in their kit. Major Brittle (as with Minor Brittle) is also very useful in PvP if you pair it with something like Mechanical Acuity. Stacking Critical Damage definitely isn't only a PvE pastime.

Exactly. We need to keep it centered on caster. If you want a ground casted aoe frost DoT, Icy Rage and Ice Comet are your options.

We could say the same about eye of frost

Unless you use it in pvp you won't understand how useful the ultimate is as a centered on caster aoe. It should not change.

And the opposite is much more useful in pve were most of the playerbase find their fun
They should just delete pvp at this point as the only thing it does is spoiling the fun of pve

We both know that's not going to happen. Zos won't just delete an entire wave of content because a couple of people want to remove it. That would damage the game. The Cyrodiil Open World PvP is a massive selling point of the game.

Excelsus

We could say the same about eye of frost[/quote]

Yeah. I heard somewhere a good compromise is where both parties feel ripped off. Eso is built on compromises - pvp and pve, stam and mag, rpg and mmo, casuals and hardcore, console and pc. It wants to be everything and thats why it will always fail to fully satisify anyone. We all get that nagging feeling "if they just changed this..." so Northern Storm will either be useless in pvp or pve. The bigger issue is frost wardens lag behind in all aspects. Ice buffs please.

ESO_Nightingale

Excelsus wrote: »

We could say the same about eye of frost]

Yeah. I heard somewhere a good compromise is where both parties feel ripped off. Eso is built on compromises - pvp and pve, stam and mag, rpg and mmo, casuals and hardcore, console and pc. It wants to be everything and thats why it will always fail to fully satisify anyone. We all get that nagging feeling "if they just changed this..." so Northern Storm will either be useless in pvp or pve. The bigger issue is frost wardens lag behind in all aspects. Ice buffs please.

Compromise is so very important. When coming up with suggestions that most people/a large majority are going to agree with, you need to think about the parties that are effected by it. So many people don't do this at all when suggesting stuff and you see the results. So this is exactly what this change that we are suggesting is doing. Because what it does, is really help frost wardens a significant amount by just giving them the skills they need to work with with sets, while having such a minor impact on the existing current fire/fire warden's builds that they would either barely notice at all or even notice a small increase of damage.

ESO_Nightingale

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Noszet wrote: »

At the very least they could revert the master destro to what it was before Greymoor to give us an actual ice (and shock) spammable.

Yes please! I don't know where to put the taunt on a frost staff if tanks are going to use it, but the elemental spammable ain't it.

Anyway, interesting update posted above on the set. Any word from ZOS on whether some of these sets are working as intended in the PTS? I've heard that some aren't applying correctly...

i'd say elemental susceptibility is still the best target for it. it just makes sense. frost clench is an awful taunt because it immobilises, and has a tiny 14m range. i said they shouldn't do it, and yet they did it any way. look at where it got them.

conaninja

Definitely agree with op
Need the opportunity for a viable frost mage that match with magdk and magsorc

ESO_Nightingale

conaninja wrote: »

Definitely agree with op
Need the opportunity for a viable frost mage that match with magdk and magsorc

thanks

SimonThesis

I think the main problem with the frostbite set is that Ice furnace and other higher consistent damage sets already exist. I think they need to either increase the numbers of this set or make it like Elf bane where the duration of Ice dots, minor brittle, and chilled are increased by 5 seconds.

For everyone complaining about Ice Warden skills remember that they are mainly a PVP class style. Frozen Device is used as a ranged pull and is often used to pull people outside of ball groups or to prevent enemies from going into towers. The frozen retreat morph is used by ball groupers to save someone falling behind. The Northern storm morph is used to give the whole group major protection so the group can survive pushing into a breach with lots of siege aoes. It also gives max magicka so you hit harder and don't run out of resources. Winters revenge is used as an ice aoe to do damage on flags or its used on breaches to give enemies a 30% snare and apply chilled/minor brittle.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler