The Frostbite set and the problems it faces.

ESO_Nightingale

So, Frostbite is a set that is releasing in Blackwood. For us Frost Wardens, this was fantastic news, a set that rewards us for playing exactly how we are built. However, after testing, we ran into some problems. It's just not much better than julianos at the moment, it's arguably worse. Julianos has no sort of proc condition for it's effects, and remains consistent. Where as applying chilled is still inconsistent.

+6% frost damage is a really nice number on paper but there is a problem with it, and that is that we just have so few skills that can even take advantage of this bonus, it is also likely even a bit too small even if we did and could still use a buff to about 12%.

Frost Damage skills are rare, especially since Warden only offers one reliable frost damage class skill in Winter's Revenge. The rest of our damage is made up of magic in our animal companions tree, this is considerably unfortunate due to the fact that our passives are built towards the frost damage type, not just in bonus damage done, but also glacial presence which is +10% critical damage done to chilled enemies. We have no such bonus for overcharged and yet most of our skills still do magic damage, we also don't need a bonus effect for the overcharged status effect either.

Our chilled chance is still spotty at the moment as well, because even though winter's revenge has 2 separate bonuses to increase our chilled chance, it's still not overly consistent and doesn't need to be increased further either.

So, with all of this said, How do we fix this to make frostbite a fantastic set for this archetype?

We change the damage types of some, or all of magicka warden's animal companions skills to frost damage, from magic damage. and directly buff the set a little bit.

The most important candidate for a damage type change is absolutely and undeniably Deep Fissure, which is still used on frost wardens due to just how much damage it offers. To achieve maximum damage output, we need this skill. If it was to deal frost damage, we would be able to gain the bonus damage on it through frostbite, but also patch up some of our chilled proc chance especially in AoE, allowing us to get chilled and thus, minor brittle and maim onto more enemies for our allies and ourselves.

The rest of the animal companions skills have merit to having their damage type changed as well. Screaming Cliff Racer would enjoy it as it would be able to put out more chilled procs in single target than deep fissure, and would just have a better overall synergy with the playstyle. However; this does not fix the fundamental issues that this skill has.

Fetcher Infection would enjoy the damage type mostly just for the bonus damage increases from relevant frost sets as single target DoT have a very slim chance to proc status effects.

Bear would definitely enjoy the extra chilled proc and damage from having access to these sets as well.

These damage type changes would additionally lay the groundwork for potential critical damage focused PvP frost builds, and would just overall be a quality of life improvement for several aspects of the game for magicka wardens.

While not all of the skills particularly need the change, at the very least, Deep Fissure and Screaming Cliff Racer would really benefit from this change, and would help to give us some synergy between our damage skill lines.

Those of us that tested frostbite, all came to the same conclusion on the item set feedback thread, this needs to be done for the class's future health.

TL:DR:

Some or all of Magicka Warden's Animal Companions damage skills should have their damage types changed to frost damage to increase class synergy and set options. Deep Fissure is the most important of these that should receive it. and Frostbite itself should be buffed by a small amount.

EDIT: after testing more the set really is around the level of julianos, and since julianos buffs everything and is active all the time, it means that frostbite just loses out really hard. A good buff would be to increase the frost damage bonus that this set gives us by another 6%, meaning that the set would now look like:

12% frost damage
+4% damage done to chilled enemies
and 2% damage done to enemies effected by minor brittle

for a total of 18%. given the specific way in which you have to build, just to use it, justifies the damage increase as it is something hard to do to keep constant uptime on it.

ichsuisme

I’d be ok with this. When I tested the set I noticed the same thing, that, despite wardens having a full frost damage skill line there wasn’t a lot of options for cold damage. You can cobble stuff together but it’s not great.

I had expected a few more class skill changes this first week.

ESO_Nightingale

ichsuisme wrote: »

I’d be ok with this. When I tested the set I noticed the same thing, that, despite wardens having a full frost damage skill line there wasn’t a lot of options for cold damage. You can cobble stuff together but it’s not great.

I had expected a few more class skill changes this first week.

Agreed. We can cobble together stuff but its not going to be good. Frost Reach for example, still underperforms with frostbite compared to degeneration. And frost pulsar's minor protection is just not even close to worthwhile when we could have had something like minor force instead.

Faded

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TL:DR

Some or all of Magicka Warden's Animal Companions damage skills should have their damage types changed to frost damage to increase class synergy and set options. Deep Fissure is the most important of these that should recieve it.

Support. A simple and elegant way to make magden a more robust spec, and that needs to happen.

LeHarrt91

I think it would also be good for it to affect all Frost Damage, not just Frost Damage Abilities. That way Light Attacks and Glyphs will gain benefit from the set as well.

ESO_Nightingale

Faded wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TL:DR

Some or all of Magicka Warden's Animal Companions damage skills should have their damage types changed to frost damage to increase class synergy and set options. Deep Fissure is the most important of these that should recieve it.

Support. A simple and elegant way to make magden a more robust spec, and that needs to happen.

Absolutely. while it does require additional animation and sound effect work, it would be very-worthwhile for zenimax to do.

EDIT: It actually does and still remains this bad.

ESO_Nightingale

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I think it would also be good for it to affect all Frost Damage, not just Frost Damage Abilities. That way Light Attacks and Glyphs will gain benefit from the set as well.

i definitely think this is potentially a good way to buff this set.

EDIT: it already does this lol. The wording is wrong.

Tannus15

Mag sorcs face the same problems with frags and prey being magic damage, with frags doing most of the heavy lifting for sorc dps.

I really hoped when the mythics launched there would be some items that converted damage types. Like ring of shock damage, converts all magic damage to shock damage.

ESO_Nightingale

Tannus15 wrote: »

Mag sorcs face the same problems with frags and prey being magic damage, with frags doing most of the heavy lifting for sorc dps.

I really hoped when the mythics launched there would be some items that converted damage types. Like ring of shock damage, converts all magic damage to shock damage.

i hope sorc gets some shock love too at some point.

YandereGirlfriend

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I think it would also be good for it to affect all Frost Damage, not just Frost Damage Abilities. That way Light Attacks and Glyphs will gain benefit from the set as well.

Typically Light Attacks are considered "abilities" for the purposes of sets. It likely already buffs them.

Tannus15 wrote: »

Mag sorcs face the same problems with frags and prey being magic damage, with frags doing most of the heavy lifting for sorc dps.

I really hoped when the mythics launched there would be some items that converted damage types. Like ring of shock damage, converts all magic damage to shock damage.

Absolutely agree. Sorcerers are in the exact same split situation as Wardens though theirs is even more awkward given that their elemental passive is weaker and they don't even have a passive that increases Magic Damage.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I think it would also be good for it to affect all Frost Damage, not just Frost Damage Abilities. That way Light Attacks and Glyphs will gain benefit from the set as well.

Typically Light Attacks are considered "abilities" for the purposes of sets. It likely already buffs them.

Tannus15 wrote: »

Mag sorcs face the same problems with frags and prey being magic damage, with frags doing most of the heavy lifting for sorc dps.

I really hoped when the mythics launched there would be some items that converted damage types. Like ring of shock damage, converts all magic damage to shock damage.

Absolutely agree. Sorcerers are in the exact same split situation as Wardens though theirs is even more awkward given that their elemental passive is weaker and they don't even have a passive that increases Magic Damage.

does it count glyphs? a frost damage glyph buff would be cute.

also while sorc's passives are relatively weaker when it comes to raw damage, sorc absolutely more than makes up for it with the power of their multitude of skills. definitely not saying that shock doesn't deserve more representation on the class though.

Excelsus

I did some testing of my own and was also disappointed. With double frost the set barely outparses mothers sorrow when the goal of the set should be to make frost dps competitive.

I agree Wardens piercing cold should be changed to bonus to frost and bleed. Make all animals frost or bleed. Boom. Coherance. But if thats too much work a viable short term fix would be to adjust the Frostbite 5pc bonus to:
6% additional frost damage
When you inflict minor brittle you gain 10% bonus damage for 10 seconds and restore 3000 magicka. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
This would keep the set in line with bsw and essence thief with a little extra punch to make up the dps/sustain loss of double barring frost staff.

Long term Id like to see class identities shorn up. Thats always been eso's weakness for me. Dragon knights kinda achieve a pyromancer. Sorcs cannot play straight lightning, so much dps is tied up in crystal frags and pets. Wardens are a weird frost, nature, hunter hybrid. Making the animal companions frost and removing some of the redundancy in frost staff skills would help. Maybe give us those old spellcrafting spells as a future skill line with the crafting part cut out, glacial spike, frost atronach, etc.

YandereGirlfriend

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I think it would also be good for it to affect all Frost Damage, not just Frost Damage Abilities. That way Light Attacks and Glyphs will gain benefit from the set as well.

Typically Light Attacks are considered "abilities" for the purposes of sets. It likely already buffs them.

Tannus15 wrote: »

Mag sorcs face the same problems with frags and prey being magic damage, with frags doing most of the heavy lifting for sorc dps.

I really hoped when the mythics launched there would be some items that converted damage types. Like ring of shock damage, converts all magic damage to shock damage.

Absolutely agree. Sorcerers are in the exact same split situation as Wardens though theirs is even more awkward given that their elemental passive is weaker and they don't even have a passive that increases Magic Damage.

does it count glyphs? a frost damage glyph buff would be cute.

also while sorc's passives are relatively weaker when it comes to raw damage, sorc absolutely more than makes up for it with the power of their multitude of skills. definitely not saying that shock doesn't deserve more representation on the class though.

I honestly have no idea if a glyph would count, that's an interesting question. I'm sure someone knows the answer.

For Sorcerers, I'm not making any argument about the class' overall power only that it's awkward to have the 'Thunder and Lightning' class have a measly 5% buff toward Shock Damage and then to have their class split between that and another third party element that they don't have an affinity toward.

If I were re-balancing the game, abilities and classes would to be tuned to classes having at least a +25% toward their designated element to really drive home the archetype.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I think it would also be good for it to affect all Frost Damage, not just Frost Damage Abilities. That way Light Attacks and Glyphs will gain benefit from the set as well.

Typically Light Attacks are considered "abilities" for the purposes of sets. It likely already buffs them.

Tannus15 wrote: »

Mag sorcs face the same problems with frags and prey being magic damage, with frags doing most of the heavy lifting for sorc dps.

I really hoped when the mythics launched there would be some items that converted damage types. Like ring of shock damage, converts all magic damage to shock damage.

Absolutely agree. Sorcerers are in the exact same split situation as Wardens though theirs is even more awkward given that their elemental passive is weaker and they don't even have a passive that increases Magic Damage.

does it count glyphs? a frost damage glyph buff would be cute.

also while sorc's passives are relatively weaker when it comes to raw damage, sorc absolutely more than makes up for it with the power of their multitude of skills. definitely not saying that shock doesn't deserve more representation on the class though.

I honestly have no idea if a glyph would count, that's an interesting question. I'm sure someone knows the answer.

regardless the glyph doing 6% more damage just by itself likely wouldn't be enough by itself to make the set more viable, they could look at increasing the frost damage bonus to 8% or the brittle bonus to 4%.

LeHarrt91

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I think it would also be good for it to affect all Frost Damage, not just Frost Damage Abilities. That way Light Attacks and Glyphs will gain benefit from the set as well.

Typically Light Attacks are considered "abilities" for the purposes of sets. It likely already buffs them.

Tannus15 wrote: »

Mag sorcs face the same problems with frags and prey being magic damage, with frags doing most of the heavy lifting for sorc dps.

I really hoped when the mythics launched there would be some items that converted damage types. Like ring of shock damage, converts all magic damage to shock damage.

Absolutely agree. Sorcerers are in the exact same split situation as Wardens though theirs is even more awkward given that their elemental passive is weaker and they don't even have a passive that increases Magic Damage.

Good to know that the Light Attacks are typically considered Abilites. Now if it affected all Frost damage it would open up for options.

ESO_Nightingale

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I think it would also be good for it to affect all Frost Damage, not just Frost Damage Abilities. That way Light Attacks and Glyphs will gain benefit from the set as well.

Typically Light Attacks are considered "abilities" for the purposes of sets. It likely already buffs them.

Tannus15 wrote: »

Mag sorcs face the same problems with frags and prey being magic damage, with frags doing most of the heavy lifting for sorc dps.

I really hoped when the mythics launched there would be some items that converted damage types. Like ring of shock damage, converts all magic damage to shock damage.

Absolutely agree. Sorcerers are in the exact same split situation as Wardens though theirs is even more awkward given that their elemental passive is weaker and they don't even have a passive that increases Magic Damage.

Good to know that the Light Attacks are typically considered Abilites. Now if it affected all Frost damage it would open up for options.

if that is the case then changing the wording would only really include proc sets and glyphs, not sure if that's really important.

YandereGirlfriend

Even impacting Light Attacks and potentially proc sets (and glyphs?), the set is still stupendously underpowered.

The 12% Frost Damage mark should be the revised target for the devs... in addition, of course, to converting more Warden Animal Companions abilities into Frost Damage and fleshing out Winter's Embrace with additional Frost Damage skills.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Even impacting Light Attacks and potentially proc sets (and glyphs?), the set is still stupendously underpowered.

The 12% Frost Damage mark should be the revised target for the devs... in addition, of course, to converting more Warden Animal Companions abilities into Frost Damage and fleshing out Winter's Embrace with additional Frost Damage skills.

i can't say that i know what it amounts to, but 12% seems like it would be a lot, maybe even too much considering that this would also mean that animal companions would be dealing frost damage, it could be fine though. i definitely want the set to slap us in the face screaming "USE ME!"

Sandman929

Change the damage type of warden magicka morphs to frost. All of them.
While you're at it figure out what Necros are, frost, fire or magicka.
They figured this out finally for DKs.

ThoughtRaven

I've been saying for years that generic "magic damage" abilities should just inherit the elemental damage of the staff you are weilding. You instantly get magdens to be proper frost mages, let sorcs use more lightning, etc.

ESO_Nightingale

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

I've been saying for years that generic "magic damage" abilities should just inherit the elemental damage of the staff you are weilding. You instantly get magdens to be proper frost mages, let sorcs use more lightning, etc.

i dunno man, just sounds like literally everything becomes fire damage at that point.

Excelsus

Sandman929 wrote: »

Change the damage type of warden magicka morphs to frost. All of them.
While you're at it figure out what Necros are, frost, fire or magicka.
They figured this out finally for DKs.

Necros actually work as elementalist. Gives them a niche with succession and elemental catalyst and it fits their flavor as wizards who push the boundaries of moral magic. They are masters of destruction and conjuration in all its darkest forms.

ESO_Nightingale

Excelsus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Change the damage type of warden magicka morphs to frost. All of them.
While you're at it figure out what Necros are, frost, fire or magicka.
They figured this out finally for DKs.

Necros actually work as elementalist. Gives them a niche with succession and elemental catalyst and it fits their flavor as wizards who push the boundaries of moral magic. They are masters of destruction and conjuration in all its darkest forms.

I agree with this. But warden, dk and sorc should really specialise in their respective elements.

ThoughtRaven

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

i dunno man, just sounds like literally everything becomes fire damage at that point.

I don't claim the change would instantly eliminate fire's lead. Just that it would make specializing more viable than it currently is for those of us who'd like to.

ESO_Nightingale

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

i dunno man, just sounds like literally everything becomes fire damage at that point.

I don't claim the change would instantly eliminate fire's lead. Just that it would make specializing more viable than it currently is for those of us who'd like to.

regardless, i think that some classes and skills should remain the damage type they are. especially now that overcharged is a thing, i think magic now definitely is warranted for certain classes. but warden honestly doesn't need a split focus when it really has something going with frost. sometimes it's nice to pick a skill and rely on it's damage type for a set, or status effect.

Ozby

@ESO_Nightingale Agree with everything you proposed.

ESO_Nightingale

Ozby wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale Agree with everything you proposed.

so far, the community response has been very unanimous when it comes to this topic. if we are all in agreement, it's up to ZOS now.

RandomKodiak

Can confirm with naked MagWarden, no skills or passives, no attributes and a lvl 150 damage 1025 ice and fire staff, no glyphs that the set does buff light attacks. Also same set up with just that set on does buff Ice damage glyph. Do have screenshots just in case but did not want to flood forum with pics. I agree the set is a great idea and works just needs a bit more power and I think Nightinggales proposal of 8% and 4% would make it much more viable without overpowering anything.

ESO_Nightingale

RandomKodiak wrote: »

Can confirm with naked MagWarden, no skills or passives, no attributes and a lvl 150 damage 1025 ice and fire staff, no glyphs that the set does buff light attacks. Also same set up with just that set on does buff Ice damage glyph. Do have screenshots just in case but did not want to flood forum with pics. I agree the set is a great idea and works just needs a bit more power and I think Nightinggales proposal of 8% and 4% would make it much more viable without overpowering anything.

Thank you a ton for sharing this with us Kodiak!
Also, i didn't catch if you thought you wanted frost damage animal companions or not. what do you think about that?

RandomKodiak

Just did a few more tests and the set does buff all frost damage from what I can tell. Added (still with no passives and all the other same conditions above) impulse and clench to both bars fire and ice, and all the tool tips were higher for the ice staff bar. That being ssaid fire with it's additional damage on burning targets and more direct damage when passives are added shoots way ahead very quickly. I would like to revise my support for Nightinggale's idea above and change the values to 10 and 5% with that in mind for the set to be able to compete at all.

RandomKodiak

Thank you a ton for sharing this with us Kodiak!
Also, i didn't catch if you thought you wanted frost damage animal companions or not. what do you think about that?[/quote]

I think that would also be a viable idea. If they changed those two to ice damage and buffed the set to 8/4 it would work or as someone else suggested take away the magic bonus passive and make them all ice. Something needs to change and I did like the idea of Ice and bleed instead of Ice and magic for the passive as well, makes sense for both stam and mag that way.