The Frostbite set and the problems it faces.

ESO_Nightingale

RandomKodiak wrote: »

Thank you a ton for sharing this with us Kodiak!
Also, i didn't catch if you thought you wanted frost damage animal companions or not. what do you think about that?

I think that would also be a viable idea. If they changed those two to ice damage and buffed the set to 8/4 it would work or as someone else suggested take away the magic bonus passive and make them all ice. Something needs to change and I did like the idea of Ice and bleed instead of Ice and magic for the passive as well, makes sense for both stam and mag that way.

Thanks for the clarification!

MashmalloMan

I'd have to agree about most things is this thread and add a couple of my own.

Warden:

1. Update the passive, "Piercing Cold" from +10% Magic and Frost damage to + 10% Frost and Bleed damage.
   • Pick a lane ZOS. Warden's should be for frost and bleed damage, you've made that abundantly clear patch to patch, so this shouldn't be out of left field. You guys are the one's slowly changing them this way, why are you not going full force? Leave magic damage for Nightblads and Templars (add synergies for that element type to them in the theme of Light/Dark magic or physical/disease damage)
   • Originally, the Piercing Cold passive gave +5% Physical and Frost damage. For whatever reason, they took out the physical damage and doubled down on magic + frost. Big shame for the stam side, you can either add power directly to skills (2 hits from shalks allowing their dps to be so high) or you can add it through passives that introduce class identity and build synergies amongst the remaining skills in the game (+10% bleed/frost damage). The latter is what makes choosing classes fun, there are so many skills in the game, and the roster is only growing, give us real reasons to build differently from one another via passives augmenting ability choice.
2. If you show us a class is clearly focussed on a damage type, I'd argue at least 70-80% of the skills you use, are centered around that idea. So the following would be the most interesting way imo to do it, without making everything just swap to the 1 damage types:
   • Shalks updated to bleed/frost.
   • Instead of just making Cliff Racer frost/bleed (although that would be nice), give both morphs the stamina idea of applying the stacking dot, but update it to another condition not attached to off balance.. Hell, take out the condition and just reduce the damage/duration. So physical/magicka damage for the base skill + applies a stacking bleed/frost dot.
   • Same as above, keep the bear physical/magical, but the bear has a chance to proc a bleed dot/frost dot on every attack. The activation of the ult will guarantee the bleed/frost effect along with the original burst/execute damage.
   • Update mag flies to a frost dot, stamina flies is already bleed. Yay.
3. Adjust stamina dps down somehow since they're already 1 of the top stam dps right now, balance still matters, but the above changes would make both builds more fun to play and build for, while having an obvious class identity.
4. Update Glacial Presence to include 10% crit damage to enemies under Chilled OR Hemorphage.
5. Update Glacial Presence passive to increase status effect chance of Hemorphage and Chilled for all abilities by 100% instead of 200% for just the Ice tree..

Frostbite set:

1. I think 12% total damage done is actually a fair number for the set for a few reasons:
   • It's slightly better than similar sets like Stam's Kinra set for Major Berserk at 10% damage done, Shieldbreakers 6% damage done + 6% shield damage done, etc.
   • The real issue is not having enough frost skills. The above changes to warden would increase chilled uptime and provide more power to more abilities since they would scale with frost better.
2. Move the % values around to allow for more classes to use it (in rare cases) while also making it more reliable overall by attaching most of the sets power to the chilled debuff, rather than just increasing frost abilities (the entire set could switch to the debuff and I'd be happier, but the below changes keeps it in the same theme). As long as you're optimized to proc chilled, you will see a buff out of this change because your damage done to enemies for all abilities changes from 6% to 8%.
   • Instead of 6% Frost damage, 4%.
   • Instead of 2% to minor brittled enemies, 4%.
   • Keep 4% to chilled enemies.

Real quick about the other elemental classes (Necro as an Elementalist is already great, Templar/NB I don't have obvious ideas for right now)..

My idea's about Warden should also apply to Stam Sorc (physical), Mag Sorc (shock), Mag DK (flame - dot), Stam DK (poison - dot). Each of them should have their passives updated to Warden's status quo of 10% along with the abilities updated to being more elemental focused. Eg. Physical Atronach Ult, Shock Crystal Shards/Curse, Poison Poop Fist/Standard/Foo/Leap, Mag DK's pretty close to being all fire damage already so thats nice.. but get rid of that 6% fire aoe damage/25% poison reduce cost for 10% fire/poison damage.

Along with those changes, make more unique passives that augment those elemental ideas like Sorc's old Implosion passive that gave us a chance to proc a physical or shock damage hit on anyone in execute, I understand why we lost it... but it was so much more fun to build for than the boring replacement of Amplitudes 10-1% damage done. YAWN.

Thats where Warden is actually getting class identity right, the +10% crit damage done to chilled enemies and +200% status chance effect to proc chilled (albeit.. only with that skill line) is interesting. The changes for DK's + 50% damage to poisoned/buring + 500 mag/stam on proc was also a step in the right direction for class identity, these are examples of interesting class passives, we want more of these!

Here's an example I'd love to see for Sorc's.. why not a unique passive that allows you to cause fork lightning/wind damage when ever you proc Concussed or Sundered to 3 nearby enemies in a 5m radius. The damage of the proc could be balanced against the ideas used behind Templars Burning Light passive.

Thank you for reading. Always a pleasure to see your ideas @ESO_Nightingale. Always on point with the issues of the class.

zvavi

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Even impacting Light Attacks and potentially proc sets (and glyphs?), the set is still stupendously underpowered.

The 12% Frost Damage mark should be the revised target for the devs... in addition, of course, to converting more Warden Animal Companions abilities into Frost Damage and fleshing out Winter's Embrace with additional Frost Damage skills.

12% bonus damage and changing all skills to frost will be too strong we are aiming for the set to push frost wardens to be strong as much as non frost wardens, not wardens to be viable only as frost wardens.

ESO_Nightingale

zvavi wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Even impacting Light Attacks and potentially proc sets (and glyphs?), the set is still stupendously underpowered.

The 12% Frost Damage mark should be the revised target for the devs... in addition, of course, to converting more Warden Animal Companions abilities into Frost Damage and fleshing out Winter's Embrace with additional Frost Damage skills.

12% bonus damage and changing all skills to frost will be too strong we are aiming for the set to push frost wardens to be strong as much as non frost wardens, not wardens to be viable only as frost wardens.

yeah, i'm scared of making it too powerful as well, we want to hit a sweet-spot with it.

YandereGirlfriend

I've also always really wanted stamDens to be specialists in Bleeds so as to match their ranger/beastmaster archetype.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I'd have to agree about most things is this thread and add a couple of my own.

Warden:

1. Update the passive, "Piercing Cold" from +10% Magic and Frost damage to + 10% Frost and Bleed damage.
   • Pick a lane ZOS. Warden's should be for frost and bleed damage, you've made that abundantly clear patch to patch, so this shouldn't be out of left field. You guys are the one's slowly changing them this way, why are you not going full force? Leave magic damage for Nightblads and Templars (add synergies for that element type to them in the theme of Light/Dark magic or physical/disease damage)
   • Originally, the Piercing Cold passive gave +5% Physical and Frost damage. For whatever reason, they took out the physical damage and doubled down on magic + frost. Big shame for the stam side, you can either add power directly to skills (2 hits from shalks allowing their dps to be so high) or you can add it through passives that introduce class identity and build synergies amongst the remaining skills in the game (+10% bleed/frost damage). The latter is what makes choosing classes fun, there are so many skills in the game, and the roster is only growing, give us real reasons to build differently from one another via passives augmenting ability choice.
2. If you show us a class is clearly focussed on a damage type, I'd argue at least 70-80% of the skills you use, are centered around that idea. So the following would be the most interesting way imo to do it, without making everything just swap to the 1 damage types:
   • Shalks updated to bleed/frost.
   • Instead of just making Cliff Racer frost/bleed (although that would be nice), give both morphs the stamina idea of applying the stacking dot, but update it to another condition not attached to off balance.. Hell, take out the condition and just reduce the damage/duration. So physical/magicka damage for the base skill + applies a stacking bleed/frost dot.
   • Same as above, keep the bear physical/magical, but the bear has a chance to proc a bleed dot/frost dot on every attack. The activation of the ult will guarantee the bleed/frost effect along with the original burst/execute damage.
   • Update mag flies to a frost dot, stamina flies is already bleed. Yay.
3. Adjust stamina dps down somehow since they're already 1 of the top stam dps right now, balance still matters, but the above changes would make both builds more fun to play and build for, while having an obvious class identity.
4. Update Glacial Presence to include 10% crit damage to enemies under Chilled OR Hemorphage.
5. Update Glacial Presence passive to increase status effect chance of Hemorphage and Chilled for all abilities by 100% instead of 200% for just the Ice tree..

Frostbite set:

1. I think 12% total damage done is actually a fair number for the set for a few reasons:
   • It's slightly better than similar sets like Stam's Kinra set for Major Berserk at 10% damage done, Shieldbreakers 6% damage done + 6% shield damage done, etc.
   • The real issue is not having enough frost skills. The above changes to warden would increase chilled uptime and provide more power to more abilities since they would scale with frost better.
2. Move the % values around to allow for more classes to use it (in rare cases) while also making it more reliable overall by attaching most of the sets power to the chilled debuff, rather than just increasing frost abilities (the entire set could switch to the debuff and I'd be happier, but the below changes keeps it in the same theme). As long as you're optimized to proc chilled, you will see a buff out of this change because your damage done to enemies for all abilities changes from 6% to 8%.
   • Instead of 6% Frost damage, 4%.
   • Instead of 2% to minor brittled enemies, 4%.
   • Keep 4% to chilled enemies.

Real quick about the other elemental classes (Necro as an Elementalist is already great, Templar/NB I don't have obvious ideas for right now)..

My idea's about Warden should also apply to Stam Sorc (physical), Mag Sorc (shock), Mag DK (flame - dot), Stam DK (poison - dot). Each of them should have their passives updated to Warden's status quo of 10% along with the abilities updated to being more elemental focused. Eg. Physical Atronach Ult, Shock Crystal Shards/Curse, Poison Poop Fist/Standard/Foo/Leap, Mag DK's pretty close to being all fire damage already so thats nice.. but get rid of that 6% fire aoe damage/25% poison reduce cost for 10% fire/poison damage.

Along with those changes, make more unique passives that augment those elemental ideas like Sorc's old Implosion passive that gave us a chance to proc a physical or shock damage hit on anyone in execute, I understand why we lost it... but it was so much more fun to build for than the boring replacement of Amplitudes 10-1% damage done. YAWN.

Thats where Warden is actually getting class identity right, the +10% crit damage done to chilled enemies and +200% status chance effect to proc chilled (albeit.. only with that skill line) is interesting. The changes for DK's + 50% damage to poisoned/buring + 500 mag/stam on proc was also a step in the right direction for class identity, these are examples of interesting class passives, we want more of these!

Here's an example I'd love to see for Sorc's.. why not a unique passive that allows you to cause fork lightning/wind damage when ever you proc Concussed or Sundered to 3 nearby enemies in a 5m radius. The damage of the proc could be balanced against the ideas used behind Templars Burning Light passive.

Thank you for reading. Always a pleasure to see your ideas @ESO_Nightingale. Always on point with the issues of the class.

This is the type of change that I dream about!

I've also long been on the train of converting stamDens to synergize with Bleed Damage. It completely fits the archetype of the beastmaster.

zvavi wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Even impacting Light Attacks and potentially proc sets (and glyphs?), the set is still stupendously underpowered.

The 12% Frost Damage mark should be the revised target for the devs... in addition, of course, to converting more Warden Animal Companions abilities into Frost Damage and fleshing out Winter's Embrace with additional Frost Damage skills.

12% bonus damage and changing all skills to frost will be too strong we are aiming for the set to push frost wardens to be strong as much as non frost wardens, not wardens to be viable only as frost wardens.

Very true... but where exactly to draw the line?

IMO, it's a desirable goal to create niche sets that can compete with (and perhaps overthrow) MS/Medusa if you build to fully leverage it. If every class had such a set then build diversity at the high-end could flourish relative to where it is today.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I've also always really wanted stamDens to be specialists in Bleeds so as to match their ranger/beastmaster archetype.

This is the type of change that I dream about!

I've also long been on the train of converting stamDens to synergize with Bleed Damage. It completely fits the archetype of the beastmaster.

zvavi wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Even impacting Light Attacks and potentially proc sets (and glyphs?), the set is still stupendously underpowered.

The 12% Frost Damage mark should be the revised target for the devs... in addition, of course, to converting more Warden Animal Companions abilities into Frost Damage and fleshing out Winter's Embrace with additional Frost Damage skills.

12% bonus damage and changing all skills to frost will be too strong we are aiming for the set to push frost wardens to be strong as much as non frost wardens, not wardens to be viable only as frost wardens.

Very true... but where exactly to draw the line?

IMO, it's a desirable goal to create niche sets that can compete with (and perhaps overthrow) MS/Medusa if you build to fully leverage it. If every class had such a set then build diversity at the high-end could flourish relative to where it is today.

we know that it's around on par with Julianos rn, so I don't think it needs a whole lot, just more frost damage support and perhaps an extra 2% damage on the frost damage, or brittle. the damage will go up a decent bit with frost shalks, fetcher and bear and an extra 2% on top of that should definitely make it worthwhile and likely competitive.

additionally, i'm unsure how exactly i think we should go about this but i think we should reduce some of stamina warden's burst power in order to give it a bit of identity with bleeds sort of like the reverse of DK, where it's bleed DoTs are lesser than it's burst but still prominent in their identity, for example, making sub assault overall less powerful but keeping it's extra cast means you can fit in more bleeds inbetween casts means that it is less bursty in pvp and better overall and unique to play in pve. i think the stacking bleed on racer is really nice but very limited at this moment. don't know if most stamdens would even want this but it would be unique.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I'd have to agree about most things is this thread and add a couple of my own.

Warden:

1. Update the passive, "Piercing Cold" from +10% Magic and Frost damage to + 10% Frost and Bleed damage.
   • Pick a lane ZOS. Warden's should be for frost and bleed damage, you've made that abundantly clear patch to patch, so this shouldn't be out of left field. You guys are the one's slowly changing them this way, why are you not going full force? Leave magic damage for Nightblads and Templars (add synergies for that element type to them in the theme of Light/Dark magic or physical/disease damage)
   • Originally, the Piercing Cold passive gave +5% Physical and Frost damage. For whatever reason, they took out the physical damage and doubled down on magic + frost. Big shame for the stam side, you can either add power directly to skills (2 hits from shalks allowing their dps to be so high) or you can add it through passives that introduce class identity and build synergies amongst the remaining skills in the game (+10% bleed/frost damage). The latter is what makes choosing classes fun, there are so many skills in the game, and the roster is only growing, give us real reasons to build differently from one another via passives augmenting ability choice.
2. If you show us a class is clearly focussed on a damage type, I'd argue at least 70-80% of the skills you use, are centered around that idea. So the following would be the most interesting way imo to do it, without making everything just swap to the 1 damage types:
   • Shalks updated to bleed/frost.
   • Instead of just making Cliff Racer frost/bleed (although that would be nice), give both morphs the stamina idea of applying the stacking dot, but update it to another condition not attached to off balance.. Hell, take out the condition and just reduce the damage/duration. So physical/magicka damage for the base skill + applies a stacking bleed/frost dot.
   • Same as above, keep the bear physical/magical, but the bear has a chance to proc a bleed dot/frost dot on every attack. The activation of the ult will guarantee the bleed/frost effect along with the original burst/execute damage.
   • Update mag flies to a frost dot, stamina flies is already bleed. Yay.
3. Adjust stamina dps down somehow since they're already 1 of the top stam dps right now, balance still matters, but the above changes would make both builds more fun to play and build for, while having an obvious class identity.
4. Update Glacial Presence to include 10% crit damage to enemies under Chilled OR Hemorphage.
5. Update Glacial Presence passive to increase status effect chance of Hemorphage and Chilled for all abilities by 100% instead of 200% for just the Ice tree..

Frostbite set:

1. I think 12% total damage done is actually a fair number for the set for a few reasons:
   • It's slightly better than similar sets like Stam's Kinra set for Major Berserk at 10% damage done, Shieldbreakers 6% damage done + 6% shield damage done, etc.
   • The real issue is not having enough frost skills. The above changes to warden would increase chilled uptime and provide more power to more abilities since they would scale with frost better.
2. Move the % values around to allow for more classes to use it (in rare cases) while also making it more reliable overall by attaching most of the sets power to the chilled debuff, rather than just increasing frost abilities (the entire set could switch to the debuff and I'd be happier, but the below changes keeps it in the same theme). As long as you're optimized to proc chilled, you will see a buff out of this change because your damage done to enemies for all abilities changes from 6% to 8%.
   • Instead of 6% Frost damage, 4%.
   • Instead of 2% to minor brittled enemies, 4%.
   • Keep 4% to chilled enemies.

Real quick about the other elemental classes (Necro as an Elementalist is already great, Templar/NB I don't have obvious ideas for right now)..

My idea's about Warden should also apply to Stam Sorc (physical), Mag Sorc (shock), Mag DK (flame - dot), Stam DK (poison - dot). Each of them should have their passives updated to Warden's status quo of 10% along with the abilities updated to being more elemental focused. Eg. Physical Atronach Ult, Shock Crystal Shards/Curse, Poison Poop Fist/Standard/Foo/Leap, Mag DK's pretty close to being all fire damage already so thats nice.. but get rid of that 6% fire aoe damage/25% poison reduce cost for 10% fire/poison damage.

Along with those changes, make more unique passives that augment those elemental ideas like Sorc's old Implosion passive that gave us a chance to proc a physical or shock damage hit on anyone in execute, I understand why we lost it... but it was so much more fun to build for than the boring replacement of Amplitudes 10-1% damage done. YAWN.

Thats where Warden is actually getting class identity right, the +10% crit damage done to chilled enemies and +200% status chance effect to proc chilled (albeit.. only with that skill line) is interesting. The changes for DK's + 50% damage to poisoned/buring + 500 mag/stam on proc was also a step in the right direction for class identity, these are examples of interesting class passives, we want more of these!

Here's an example I'd love to see for Sorc's.. why not a unique passive that allows you to cause fork lightning/wind damage when ever you proc Concussed or Sundered to 3 nearby enemies in a 5m radius. The damage of the proc could be balanced against the ideas used behind Templars Burning Light passive.

Thank you for reading. Always a pleasure to see your ideas @ESO_Nightingale. Always on point with the issues of the class.

I think that what you have listed here is so much work that it would genuinely take years, I definitely understand everything you've written and i think it would be nice too, but changing other classes to get these effects would genuinely be a massive undertaking considering you need to look at what they already have and take away from that. I know warden best, (specifically magicka warden). And i have been analyzing it over and over for more than 3 years. I do not have a clear understanding of the intricacies of other classes and i cannot even begin to suggest something fair for them so i think for right now it is only fair to do this sort of thing for magicka warden because it genuinely needs it, has the foundation and room for it.

YandereGirlfriend

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I've also always really wanted stamDens to be specialists in Bleeds so as to match their ranger/beastmaster archetype.

This is the type of change that I dream about!

I've also long been on the train of converting stamDens to synergize with Bleed Damage. It completely fits the archetype of the beastmaster.

zvavi wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Even impacting Light Attacks and potentially proc sets (and glyphs?), the set is still stupendously underpowered.

The 12% Frost Damage mark should be the revised target for the devs... in addition, of course, to converting more Warden Animal Companions abilities into Frost Damage and fleshing out Winter's Embrace with additional Frost Damage skills.

12% bonus damage and changing all skills to frost will be too strong we are aiming for the set to push frost wardens to be strong as much as non frost wardens, not wardens to be viable only as frost wardens.

Very true... but where exactly to draw the line?

IMO, it's a desirable goal to create niche sets that can compete with (and perhaps overthrow) MS/Medusa if you build to fully leverage it. If every class had such a set then build diversity at the high-end could flourish relative to where it is today.

we know that it's around on par with Julianos rn, so I don't think it needs a whole lot, just more frost damage support and perhaps an extra 2% damage on the frost damage, or brittle. the damage will go up a decent bit with frost shalks, fetcher and bear and an extra 2% on top of that should definitely make it worthwhile and likely competitive.

additionally, i'm unsure how exactly i think we should go about this but i think we should reduce some of stamina warden's burst power in order to give it a bit of identity with bleeds sort of like the reverse of DK, where it's bleed DoTs are lesser than it's burst but still prominent in their identity, for example, making sub assault overall less powerful but keeping it's extra cast means you can fit in more bleeds inbetween casts means that it is less bursty in pvp and better overall and unique to play in pve. i think the stacking bleed on racer is really nice but very limited at this moment. don't know if most stamdens would even want this but it would be unique.

Roughly on par with Julianos is some weak tea though.

Being practical, it is unlikely that the we are going to see Frost Animal Companions in next week's PTS or even within this patch and I really don't want to be in a situation where we accept a crippled version of Frostbite now under the mere hope that we get needed class changes later.

For all we know, those changes will never arrive and it will leave us with yet another useless set in the meantime (and potentially forever if they neglect it like Ysgramor).

I would infinitely prefer to take the +12% Frost Damage now and then have the happy problem of having to reduce it later if and when we see Frost Animal Companions.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I've also always really wanted stamDens to be specialists in Bleeds so as to match their ranger/beastmaster archetype.

This is the type of change that I dream about!

I've also long been on the train of converting stamDens to synergize with Bleed Damage. It completely fits the archetype of the beastmaster.

zvavi wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Even impacting Light Attacks and potentially proc sets (and glyphs?), the set is still stupendously underpowered.

The 12% Frost Damage mark should be the revised target for the devs... in addition, of course, to converting more Warden Animal Companions abilities into Frost Damage and fleshing out Winter's Embrace with additional Frost Damage skills.

12% bonus damage and changing all skills to frost will be too strong we are aiming for the set to push frost wardens to be strong as much as non frost wardens, not wardens to be viable only as frost wardens.

Very true... but where exactly to draw the line?

IMO, it's a desirable goal to create niche sets that can compete with (and perhaps overthrow) MS/Medusa if you build to fully leverage it. If every class had such a set then build diversity at the high-end could flourish relative to where it is today.

we know that it's around on par with Julianos rn, so I don't think it needs a whole lot, just more frost damage support and perhaps an extra 2% damage on the frost damage, or brittle. the damage will go up a decent bit with frost shalks, fetcher and bear and an extra 2% on top of that should definitely make it worthwhile and likely competitive.

additionally, i'm unsure how exactly i think we should go about this but i think we should reduce some of stamina warden's burst power in order to give it a bit of identity with bleeds sort of like the reverse of DK, where it's bleed DoTs are lesser than it's burst but still prominent in their identity, for example, making sub assault overall less powerful but keeping it's extra cast means you can fit in more bleeds inbetween casts means that it is less bursty in pvp and better overall and unique to play in pve. i think the stacking bleed on racer is really nice but very limited at this moment. don't know if most stamdens would even want this but it would be unique.

Roughly on par with Julianos is some weak tea though.

Being practical, it is unlikely that the we are going to see Frost Animal Companions in next week's PTS or even within this patch and I really don't want to be in a situation where we accept a crippled version of Frostbite now under the mere hope that we get needed class changes later.

For all we know, those changes will never arrive and it will leave us with yet another useless set in the meantime (and potentially forever if they neglect it like Ysgramor).

I would infinitely prefer to take the +12% Frost Damage now and then have the happy problem of having to reduce it later if and when we see Frost Animal Companions.

The bonus that julianos might be weak. However it has the massive benefit of absolutely constant uptime and it buffs everything a mag user does. We need to look at equivalent high spell damage/damage sets that are used and compare them to julianos before deciding a proper solid value. I definitely think that ZOS is likely to change the damage types of the animal companions skills now given how much support everyone has given the suggestion during this cycle. Additionally. It just makes so much sense to do it now given our passives, set and weapon options and how it doesn't hurt the existing builds at all if it was to change.

ajkb78

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Change the damage type of warden magicka morphs to frost. All of them.
While you're at it figure out what Necros are, frost, fire or magicka.
They figured this out finally for DKs.

Necros actually work as elementalist. Gives them a niche with succession and elemental catalyst and it fits their flavor as wizards who push the boundaries of moral magic. They are masters of destruction and conjuration in all its darkest forms.

I agree with this. But warden, dk and sorc should really specialise in their respective elements.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

I've been saying for years that generic "magic damage" abilities should just inherit the elemental damage of the staff you are weilding. You instantly get magdens to be proper frost mages, let sorcs use more lightning, etc.

i dunno man, just sounds like literally everything becomes fire damage at that point.

The other half of this is that the destro staff passives need addressing. With single target direct damage (ie spammables and light attacks) making up such a large part of dps it's inevitable that inferno staffs will be strongest on every class regardless of any elemental flavour provided by class passives. Obviously there would need to be a bit of balancing to ensure overall dps remained roughly constant but it would be nice to see a change to the destro staff passives so that other staffs were truly viable for dps and different ones were optimum for different classes.

I'd start by removing the current Ancient Knowledge passive and replacing it with "Equipping an inferno staff increases your damage done with flame and magic damage by x%. Equipping a Lightning Staff increases your damage done with shock and magic damage by x%. Equipping an Ice Staff increases your damage done with ice and magic damage by x%."

The frost staff tanking part of Ancient Knowledge would get added to one of the existing tanky blue CP slottables. The increased damage done by single target or AOE damage is already covered by existing blue CP so anyone can specialise into these as desired.

If done right this should result in a situation where inferno staves are optimum for dragonknights, shock staves are optimum for sorcerers, ice staves are optimum for wardens, NB and templar get quite a lot of flexibility because so much of their damage is magic damage, and necromancer probably opts for inferno staff because so much damage comes from skull and BB.

olsborg

Maybe the mag morph of shalks could be frost dmg?

ESO_Nightingale

olsborg wrote: »

Maybe the mag morph of shalks could be frost dmg?

Yes, that is what was mentioned a couple of times as the most important animal companions skill that should deal frost damage, moreso than any of the other skills in the line. It's necessary.

TKOS7

I’ve also been trying this set on PTS and my idea was to use the Asylum Destro to keep chilled and brittle up 100%. The rotation is just spikes, wall, reach and then spam pulse but the issue weirdly is sustain. Even with parse food and an absorb mag infused backbar and the netch up I’m running low. Damage is good though, hits 40k on a 3m.

WombatNipples65

I agree with everything you've said, the class is needing the change to Frost damage, much akin to the DK being Fire Damage and the Sorc being Lightning. The class remains as viable with all the current setups it uses in PvE and PvP, but also adds in more choice and build diversity allowing the use of Frost altering sets for a "Frost Mage" DD in PvE or PvP as well as opening up the choice of being a support role too.

RandomKodiak

TKOS7 Remember Ice staff skills are more expensive. That was done when they added the shield mechanic.

ESO_Nightingale

RandomKodiak wrote: »

TKOS7 Remember Ice staff skills are more expensive. That was done when they added the shield mechanic.

I think it's just wall of frost that is more expensive.

JoSePHRiNG

Well again as we see problem comes down to Warden, it is a so-called "Frost Damage" type class even though only 2 SKILLS
deals damage and only 1 SKILL is actually damaging ability.

But then what about destruction staff abilities? You can only use "The Wall" as an ability, hence how we can use this set
Warden needs a lot of frost abilities that is for sure.

ESO_Nightingale

JoSePHRiNG wrote: »

Well again as we see problem comes down to Warden, it is a so-called "Frost Damage" type class even though only 2 SKILLS
deals damage and only 1 SKILL is actually damaging ability.

But then what about destruction staff abilities? You can only use "The Wall" as an ability, hence how we can use this set
Warden needs a lot of frost abilities that is for sure.

We do use force pulse as the chilled cleave combos well with the status cleave effect the spammable has. And, I would use pulsar if it's secondary effect was good. Eg, minor force. But right now, its just aoe minor protection which no-one wants or will ever want to use. Additionally, frost reach shares the same problems with all of the Reach DoTs, and that is that it just doesn't do enough damage so compete with the utility of degeneration or soul trap.

And finally, Icy Rage. All it does is give an immobilize when the other morphs have effects related to damage or uptime.

Instead of having a useful effect. It just does what frost wall already does but instantly instead. I want it to have a reduced cost. But that hasn't happened.

ESO_Nightingale

WombatNipples65 wrote: »

I agree with everything you've said, the class is needing the change to Frost damage, much akin to the DK being Fire Damage and the Sorc being Lightning. The class remains as viable with all the current setups it uses in PvE and PvP, but also adds in more choice and build diversity allowing the use of Frost altering sets for a "Frost Mage" DD in PvE or PvP as well as opening up the choice of being a support role too.

Yep, frost damage shalks and animal companions skills allows for the greatest build diversity. Extremely minor downside for a great upside that allows our class to synergise much better with itself.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Very true... but where exactly to draw the line?

IMO, it's a desirable goal to create niche sets that can compete with (and perhaps overthrow) MS/Medusa if you build to fully leverage it. If every class had such a set then build diversity at the high-end could flourish relative to where it is today.

We need to find out where to draw the line by comparing other sets that are used.

Rex-Umbra

Uhhh what animals do frost damage... No thanks. Its meant to buff frost staff damage.

ESO_Nightingale

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Uhhh what animals do frost damage... No thanks. Its meant to buff frost staff damage.

This is pretty simple to answer. Since Warden is a "master storyteller whose nature tales become magical reality."

It means that the animals they create are not real, but instead just warden magic. Because wardens deal frost damage as their native element, is it really far-fetched to say that they inherit the magical element/aspects/powers/characteristics of their summoner?

They are already dealing unrealistic damage anyway. Shalks do fire damage, and cliff racers, bears and bugs deal physical damage. Yet on Magicka Warden, they all deal magic damage and have mostly spectral features. It is absolutely not far fetched at all to swap the damage type to frost. And works from a lore perspective.

Frostbite and other frost related stat sets have no-where near enough frost damage skill support and warden's animal companions tree makes sense logically for both the gameplay of the magicka warden and the lore to be type swapped to frost damage. Magicka Warden wants more chilled proc from it's main rotation in both AoE and Single Target.

Even sorcerer's scamp familiar is imbued with sorc's magic, dealing shock damage when they normally always deal fire damage. It isn't a banekin.

Sandman929

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Uhhh what animals do frost damage... No thanks. Its meant to buff frost staff damage.

That's where reality breaks for you? Not the fact that these "animals" are conjured out of nothing and disappear immediately after doing damage? If a summoned animal can do magical damage, it can do frost damage.

robpr

Icy Rage should provide Major Brittle. 30% crit damage for 7s wouldn't break the game.

Zippy81

Hey guys!
While I like the idea of class identity, I don't think it's a good idea to force classes into specific roles by making all their abilities exactly the same element. Necromancers are a perfect example of mismatching various elements and that way they are able to make use of specific sets mentioned before, elemental catalyst and elemental succession. In my opinion, all classes should have a choice, with a major element and a minor one. For magicka wardens, ice is the major one, and the generic minor one being magical damage. And then we have stamina wardens with physical damage and bleeding respectively. That's really interesting that the generic physical damage is the most often applied kind of damage for stamina while magical damage is kind of supplementary for magicka builds.

I like wardens a lot and I think that the key to making a class unique DD-wise is a specific buff - the chilled effect and brittle. Brittle is locked behind the ice staff wall which isn't really a DD weapon. However, if we had chilled attached to a warden ability with at least 50% probability of applying, it'd be a totally different ball game.

So how about winter's revenge applies chilled every 3 seconds to everything in its range? Or perhaps make the bear's swipe ulti attack apply chilled too. Leave the spammables magical damage type though.

I know it's a totally different idea but I thought I'd share it anyway because the frostbite set shouldn't define a whole class. I don't want to be forced to use a set to carry me, I want to use other sets too. What if I want to build for crit damage or procs? There are sets like that I could use. Besides, wardens are in a really good spot, I think. They can fill any role and even in PVP they are great.

Sandman929

Zippy81 wrote: »

Hey guys!
While I like the idea of class identity, I don't think it's a good idea to force classes into specific roles by making all their abilities exactly the same element. Necromancers are a perfect example of mismatching various elements and that way they are able to make use of specific sets mentioned before, elemental catalyst and elemental succession. In my opinion, all classes should have a choice, with a major element and a minor one. For magicka wardens, ice is the major one, and the generic minor one being magical damage. And then we have stamina wardens with physical damage and bleeding respectively. That's really interesting that the generic physical damage is the most often applied kind of damage for stamina while magical damage is kind of supplementary for magicka builds.

I like wardens a lot and I think that the key to making a class unique DD-wise is a specific buff - the chilled effect and brittle. Brittle is locked behind the ice staff wall which isn't really a DD weapon. However, if we had chilled attached to a warden ability with at least 50% probability of applying, it'd be a totally different ball game.

So how about winter's revenge applies chilled every 3 seconds to everything in its range? Or perhaps make the bear's swipe ulti attack apply chilled too. Leave the spammables magical damage type though.

I know it's a totally different idea but I thought I'd share it anyway because the frostbite set shouldn't define a whole class. I don't want to be forced to use a set to carry me, I want to use other sets too. What if I want to build for crit damage or procs? There are sets like that I could use. Besides, wardens are in a really good spot, I think. They can fill any role and even in PVP they are great.

I don't think Frostbite would define a whole class, any more than Elf Bane defines Dragonknights. I personally enjoy fire defining Magicka Dragonknights much more than I did when they also had a mixed bag of magicka and fire damage skills.


Edit:

Although I admit, I think the idea presented by others that your magicka morph damage type could be defined by your destruction staff type is fantastic.

kojou

I fully support making all damage from Warden that is currently "magic" damage into Frost damage.

I actually support removing "magic" damage from the game entirely and just have all damage be elemental or martial.

ESO_Nightingale

Zippy81 wrote: »

Hey guys!
While I like the idea of class identity, I don't think it's a good idea to force classes into specific roles by making all their abilities exactly the same element.

This does not do that at all. This just makes the synergy between class skills better and has near minimal effects on gameplay for regular warden, and would actually still even be a buff in most cases. While being massive for frost warden.

ESO_Nightingale

robpr wrote: »

Icy Rage should provide Major Brittle. 30% crit damage for 7s wouldn't break the game.

Ive thought about this, people in trial groups would want to run as much major brittle uptime as possible. And i don't know if a 250 cost ultimate would provide the best experience for a group if a bunch of people are running a frost staff just to get optimal major brittle uptime via Icy Rage it just kinda screams the whole collosus situation again. You also wouldn't be able to use the debuff in pvp really at all. I think major brittle should be applied by an ultimate that has good synergy with frost but isn't limited to it. Like a reworked soul assault or a new ultimate entirely or something.

YandereGirlfriend

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Very true... but where exactly to draw the line?

IMO, it's a desirable goal to create niche sets that can compete with (and perhaps overthrow) MS/Medusa if you build to fully leverage it. If every class had such a set then build diversity at the high-end could flourish relative to where it is today.

We need to find out where to draw the line by comparing other sets that are used.

Right, but we should be aiming higher than a mediocre crafted set that only newbie players use (Julianos).

There's no divine law that says that Mother's Sorrow or Medusa have the right to reign supreme for all classes. That is the target we should be aiming for, a set to fully replace MS and Medusa for Frost Wardens.