"We're Taking Some of the Power Out of the High End Experience"

Anonx31st

I have been playing for 6+ years. I don't mind if CP was even removed from this game. I welcome a more even playing field for ALL players. ZOS obviously knows what they are doing and why.

katanagirl1

Before the update:

I have 600 cp I can’t use

After the update:

I have 600 more cp now to use but I’m weaker than before

How can that be the goal of the devs in an update???

That really hits hard.

PigofSteel

Yea we really need that... Maybe that 3 raid youtube teams who are bored and breaking records than telling zos how to nerf the game... Thats why nobody plays trials.

Lab3360

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Before the update:

I have 600 cp I can’t use

After the update:

I have 600 more cp now to use but I’m weaker than before

How can that be the goal of the devs in an update???

That really hits hard.

Literally makes No Sense huh?!

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

I truly hope that somehow Zos listens this time to feedback before this goes live... This is really shaping up to be one of the worst patches they've released, which is dismally impressive.

LashanW

Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »

Just a heads up, that mythic is for sure going to be considered a cheese regarding parses since there is no way to adequately maintain the boost granted from it during actual combat scenarios in live content - therefore any and all parses using it are automatically considered invalid and not representative of the actual state of player power in game to anyone serious about their DPS. This same logic applies to double dagger magicka parses this cycle; sure you can hit those numbers with that setup in a controlled environment without moving or taking damage while standing next to a dummy. Doesn't matter in real content.

Are you talking about "Harpooner's Wading Kilt" mythic item? Most experienced players will easily maintain high amount of stacks of it in actual endgame fights. You don't even have to worry about it too much, just do the rotation with LA weaving as usual and the set will take care of the rest.



If you are LA weaving you'll be constantly gaining stacks each second during combat. DDs don't take that much direct damage during fights. Even if you take direct damage it will only remove ONE stack, not all. You even have a 1 minute window to keep the stacks (for traveling between trash fights or a phase where you are not attacking anything) Most people will combine this with 1 piece slimecraw so that's ~9% crit chance and 20% more crit damage. Easily outperforms monster sets.

Wonder how long until this item gets nerfed to the ground.

Hoolielulu

Lab3360 wrote: »

Im on ps4 and dps is absolutely terrible. If you input light attacks too fast, the server has to play catch up 20% of the time and wont even register your light attacks..

Im going to start a post about every single thing that is wrong with this game and then ask why they feel necessary to nerf endgame players when we cant even play the game efficiently yet.

Some friends and I had big plans to finally get into vet content. We were ready. Then news came down of MORE NERFS and it all fell apart. We didn't even need to discuss it, we all just knew. Four people migrated over to RDR2 because they no longer want to play a game that keeps kicking their progression right in the balls. Can't really blame them. It's rough on PS4 and sometimes I mash buttons in frustration.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

Ellimist_Entreri

Anonx31st wrote: »

I have been playing for 6+ years. I don't mind if CP was even removed from this game. I welcome a more even playing field for ALL players. ZOS obviously knows what they are doing and why.

I have already proven that it didn't take 6 years to hit viable player strength before the changes in U30 you are supporting in a previous post (post #124 as of this edit) of this very thread.

No one asked for the strength of passives to be cut in half, the pvp user base was requesting less of a needed grind due to power disparity in champion point enabled player versus player situations.

Ellimist_Entreri

LashanW wrote: »

Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »

Just a heads up, that mythic is for sure going to be considered a cheese regarding parses since there is no way to adequately maintain the boost granted from it during actual combat scenarios in live content - therefore any and all parses using it are automatically considered invalid and not representative of the actual state of player power in game to anyone serious about their DPS. This same logic applies to double dagger magicka parses this cycle; sure you can hit those numbers with that setup in a controlled environment without moving or taking damage while standing next to a dummy. Doesn't matter in real content.

Are you talking about "Harpooner's Wading Kilt" mythic item? Most experienced players will easily maintain high amount of stacks of it in actual endgame fights. You don't even have to worry about it too much, just do the rotation with LA weaving as usual and the set will take care of the rest.



If you are LA weaving you'll be constantly gaining stacks each second during combat. DDs don't take that much direct damage during fights. Even if you take direct damage it will only remove ONE stack, not all. You even have a 1 minute window to keep the stacks (for traveling between trash fights or a phase where you are not attacking anything) Most people will combine this with 1 piece slimecraw so that's ~9% crit chance and 20% more crit damage. Easily outperforms monster sets.

Wonder how long until this item gets nerfed to the ground.

Thank you for the insight and correction! I am looking forward to using that until ZOS decides it is time I am losing that!
How is that going to help with "Raising the floor" and "We're Taking Some of the Power Out of the High End Experience"

Shantu

Sangwyne wrote: »

There really needs to be a poll to see whether players are actually looking forward to these changes, or if it's just like one dude named Fred from Missouri that's allergic to fun. ZOS keeps saying they are nerfing CP and taking all the power out of it "based on feedback" but then I see multiple page posts with dozens of reactions practically unanimously agreeing that they don't like the changes and maybe one post that kinda supports it.

The problem is that what ZOS sees as feedback and what they do about it can be wildly different things. Remember when players were endlessly whining about shield stacking in PVP? Well, ZOS listened...and nerfed every shield in the game. Same old song and dance.

We players are not the enemy here...but it sure feels that way at times.

Tenthirty2

I guess from a noobs perspective I really don't understand why they are nicking more dmg from higher level players.
I likely don't fully understand the reasonings but based on most ppl's comments here this is a nerf I will feel, yet again.

Been in ESO a little more than a year now, doing fairly well (I think lol).
Was a bit irked with the new CP2.0 system as I had just started feeling the benefits of the old one.
But ok I thought, I rolled with it and reallocated.
I'm just now getting to a point, shy of CP700, where I am really starting to deal decent DPS (for me and my odd character choice).
Solo player mostly, so a lot of WB and group dungeons and delves that were beyond me before I'm starting to take out one by one. Happy about that but not happy if my DPS is going to take a hit.

I'm finishing Craglorn now and currently soloing Shada's Tear, it's the last thing I need to complete the zone(except for the dedicated group "Monster Face" dungeons HA).

ST has been rough going, but frustratingly fun too but doing less dmg in there tho? Fek me plz NO, NOT a fan of that idea. I haven't gotten to Shada yet, I'm close tho and have read she's not bad if you can take her down fast (hoping to avoid the instakill mages). That's my plan, so more DPS plz, not less ZOS

Again, this is my noob take, I haven't been in ESO as long as most here I'm sure, so maybe this is nothing to bother about.

I do know tho I would love to see ZOS sink some more attention into improving performance. Things seemed a little better overall for awhile after CP2.0. But in the last month or so I've been getting more lag, longer load times, "frozen" mobs and other oddities that from experience with other games, points to high server latency or other performance issues.
(First things I checked were on my end and 99% sure it's not my gear\ISP)

Lab3360

Tenthirty2 wrote: »

I guess from a noobs perspective I really don't understand why they are nicking more dmg from higher level players.
I likely don't fully understand the reasonings but based on most ppl's comments here this is a nerf I will feel, yet again.

Been in ESO a little more than a year now, doing fairly well (I think lol).
Was a bit irked with the new CP2.0 system as I had just started feeling the benefits of the old one.
But ok I thought, I rolled with it and reallocated.
I'm just now getting to a point, shy of CP700, where I am really starting to deal decent DPS (for me and my odd character choice).
Solo player mostly, so a lot of WB and group dungeons and delves that were beyond me before I'm starting to take out one by one. Happy about that but not happy if my DPS is going to take a hit.

I'm finishing Craglorn now and currently soloing Shada's Tear, it's the last thing I need to complete the zone(except for the dedicated group "Monster Face" dungeons HA).

ST has been rough going, but frustratingly fun too but doing less dmg in there tho? Fek me plz NO, NOT a fan of that idea. I haven't gotten to Shada yet, I'm close tho and have read she's not bad if you can take her down fast (hoping to avoid the instakill mages). That's my plan, so more DPS plz, not less ZOS

Again, this is my noob take, I haven't been in ESO as long as most here I'm sure, so maybe this is nothing to bother about.

I do know tho I would love to see ZOS sink some more attention into improving performance. Things seemed a little better overall for awhile after CP2.0. But in the last month or so I've been getting more lag, longer load times, "frozen" mobs and other oddities that from experience with other games, points to high server latency or other performance issues.
(First things I checked were on my end and 99% sure it's not my gear\ISP)

Yeah....I have the feeling they want to push iut veteran players. They may succeed.
I feel bad for nee players. Its going to be a lot tougher. I have brought a lot of friends to this game. We are all waiting to see if devs do this. In the meeanwhile, I definitely wont be recommending this game to anyone.

Lab3360

Im so sorry bro. These guys really suck if they go thru with this. Im hoping they dont suck. Bit we will see

Everest_Lionheart

Lab3360 wrote: »

Tenthirty2 wrote: »

I guess from a noobs perspective I really don't understand why they are nicking more dmg from higher level players.
I likely don't fully understand the reasonings but based on most ppl's comments here this is a nerf I will feel, yet again.

Been in ESO a little more than a year now, doing fairly well (I think lol).
Was a bit irked with the new CP2.0 system as I had just started feeling the benefits of the old one.
But ok I thought, I rolled with it and reallocated.
I'm just now getting to a point, shy of CP700, where I am really starting to deal decent DPS (for me and my odd character choice).
Solo player mostly, so a lot of WB and group dungeons and delves that were beyond me before I'm starting to take out one by one. Happy about that but not happy if my DPS is going to take a hit.

I'm finishing Craglorn now and currently soloing Shada's Tear, it's the last thing I need to complete the zone(except for the dedicated group "Monster Face" dungeons HA).

ST has been rough going, but frustratingly fun too but doing less dmg in there tho? Fek me plz NO, NOT a fan of that idea. I haven't gotten to Shada yet, I'm close tho and have read she's not bad if you can take her down fast (hoping to avoid the instakill mages). That's my plan, so more DPS plz, not less ZOS

Again, this is my noob take, I haven't been in ESO as long as most here I'm sure, so maybe this is nothing to bother about.

I do know tho I would love to see ZOS sink some more attention into improving performance. Things seemed a little better overall for awhile after CP2.0. But in the last month or so I've been getting more lag, longer load times, "frozen" mobs and other oddities that from experience with other games, points to high server latency or other performance issues.
(First things I checked were on my end and 99% sure it's not my gear\ISP)

Yeah....I have the feeling they want to push iut veteran players. They may succeed.
I feel bad for nee players. Its going to be a lot tougher. I have brought a lot of friends to this game. We are all waiting to see if devs do this. In the meeanwhile, I definitely wont be recommending this game to anyone.

These changes have no real effect on the top tier of players. It’s hits those of us in the upper mid quite hard though. Lots of groups still want us pushing those high numbers and to some extent we can but at the cost of staying alive. Old 810 you have all of the damage and mitigation though you would have to respec situationally to clear content. Now you have reduced damage and none of the mitigation of your CP isn’t 1200+. And they are nerfing it all some more. Sure it’s forcing those of us that are still attempting hard content to revisit the mechanics that were already killing us to find a way to avoid them all together, but it has set prog groups back several weeks, maybe even months depending how hard they grind those extra CP.

The kicker here is all of those changes were supposed to improve performance and performance has taken a significant nose dive. What good does it do to learn mechs when mechs are broken. Last night in vAS+1 main tank disconnect, followed by OT disconnect, followed by protector rolling out of AOE, followed by no mini boss animation before interrupt mechanic followed by 6 spits in the room followed by 4x kite AOE in the same place... But wait there’s more, boss jumps at 53% with a protector still up rolling out of our AOE’s and wipes half the group. We recover. Exe phase is a total s-show because we have no way to tell mechs apart anymore so we have timers going for kite, mini boss and protectors.

Despite all that we pulled it out because the group is exceptional. Thing is before the new CP rollout were were on the cusp of +2 with a few hiccups at exe phase that kept wiping us. Now we are struggling for +1 with more glitches than a team should be able to handle.

But let’s go ahead and nerf the power some more why don’t we? That will profit invisible adds, disconnects, animation bugs and overlapping mechs that shouldn’t overlap.

warg_derpin_gdf

I'm shocked! I thought there was leveling from the enemy stats also. I can only guesstimate that is was slashed by at least %20 in general, %25 tops.

warg_derpin_gdf

and don't even get me started on axing the light/medium/heavy armor specializations. DPS followed suit as the corresponding "fighting styles" just absolutely go obsolete due to. (sorry about my grammar there)

LalMirchi

This one often wonders about who is our dear Uncle Sheo/s? Using the Wabbajack to nerf or buff random things?

Merforum

LashanW wrote: »

Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »

Just a heads up, that mythic is for sure going to be considered a cheese regarding parses since there is no way to adequately maintain the boost granted from it during actual combat scenarios in live content - therefore any and all parses using it are automatically considered invalid and not representative of the actual state of player power in game to anyone serious about their DPS. This same logic applies to double dagger magicka parses this cycle; sure you can hit those numbers with that setup in a controlled environment without moving or taking damage while standing next to a dummy. Doesn't matter in real content.

Are you talking about "Harpooner's Wading Kilt" mythic item? Most experienced players will easily maintain high amount of stacks of it in actual endgame fights. You don't even have to worry about it too much, just do the rotation with LA weaving as usual and the set will take care of the rest.



If you are LA weaving you'll be constantly gaining stacks each second during combat. DDs don't take that much direct damage during fights. Even if you take direct damage it will only remove ONE stack, not all. You even have a 1 minute window to keep the stacks (for traveling between trash fights or a phase where you are not attacking anything) Most people will combine this with 1 piece slimecraw so that's ~9% crit chance and 20% more crit damage. Easily outperforms monster sets.

Wonder how long until this item gets nerfed to the ground.

Yeah but there is hope, the way they changed 'pale order' is how they can handle sets like this too. Undoubtedly this set is going to be immediately exploited by every one in trials so they should say now that it scales off how many players are in a group (OR even better scale by how many are wearing it, for instance, if 4 people all have it in a group it is half effect, if 4-8 have it it's 25%, if more than 8 have it on it doesn't work). This way you can still have 3 people wear in dungeon where tank shouldn't have this, but if 4 people have it meaning 4 DPS speed runners abusing it, it is 50% effective. And Trials is obvious.

Hopefully when this is abused they will use the 'pale order' fix method and not the 'thrassian' method of just making it worthless for everyone. BTW I am calling for them to relook at thrassian since a lot of sets will be based off w/s dmg now, we need a good way to get 1-3K. I propose going back to original settings 20 stacks, 50-150 w/s dmg per stack, but either not usable by all 4 people in a group and either not usable at all in trial or scaled like above so max 3 people could use it to full effect in trial group.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Merforum wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »

Just a heads up, that mythic is for sure going to be considered a cheese regarding parses since there is no way to adequately maintain the boost granted from it during actual combat scenarios in live content - therefore any and all parses using it are automatically considered invalid and not representative of the actual state of player power in game to anyone serious about their DPS. This same logic applies to double dagger magicka parses this cycle; sure you can hit those numbers with that setup in a controlled environment without moving or taking damage while standing next to a dummy. Doesn't matter in real content.

Are you talking about "Harpooner's Wading Kilt" mythic item? Most experienced players will easily maintain high amount of stacks of it in actual endgame fights. You don't even have to worry about it too much, just do the rotation with LA weaving as usual and the set will take care of the rest.



If you are LA weaving you'll be constantly gaining stacks each second during combat. DDs don't take that much direct damage during fights. Even if you take direct damage it will only remove ONE stack, not all. You even have a 1 minute window to keep the stacks (for traveling between trash fights or a phase where you are not attacking anything) Most people will combine this with 1 piece slimecraw so that's ~9% crit chance and 20% more crit damage. Easily outperforms monster sets.

Wonder how long until this item gets nerfed to the ground.

Yeah but there is hope, the way they changed 'pale order' is how they can handle sets like this too. Undoubtedly this set is going to be immediately exploited by every one in trials so they should say now that it scales off how many players are in a group (OR even better scale by how many are wearing it, for instance, if 4 people all have it in a group it is half effect, if 4-8 have it it's 25%, if more than 8 have it on it doesn't work). This way you can still have 3 people wear in dungeon where tank shouldn't have this, but if 4 people have it meaning 4 DPS speed runners abusing it, it is 50% effective. And Trials is obvious.

Hopefully when this is abused they will use the 'pale order' fix method and not the 'thrassian' method of just making it worthless for everyone. BTW I am calling for them to relook at thrassian since a lot of sets will be based off w/s dmg now, we need a good way to get 1-3K. I propose going back to original settings 20 stacks, 50-150 w/s dmg per stack, but either not usable by all 4 people in a group and either not usable at all in trial or scaled like above so max 3 people could use it to full effect in trial group.

They release things like this full well knowing what they're capable of. It's not "exploiting" the sets if they're tested and released like that, and the only reason they are released like that is to get people to buy the chapter before the item is inevitably nerfed literally not a patch later in some cases. I would say it's more exploiting on zos' part to slam nerfs on people, offer a paid "solution", and then strip the item away so you're worse off than ever before.

BlueRaven

LalMirchi wrote: »

This one often wonders about who is our dear Uncle Sheo/s? Using the Wabbajack to nerf or buff random things?

There is a type of madness about it.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

ZOS_TrishM wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

Since my original response to this has mysteriously disappeared, I'll ask this again. Can we get some actual meaningful feedback on large threads such as this?

Ceejengine

I think the changes are primarily to address burst damage. I dont think they ever wanted anyone hitting 90k dps sustained. Obv taking it away now that people had it will upset them.

Especially because something like 85% of the playerbase main DPS characters.

I think once they've gotten a good set up for damage they need to go and strip extra heals out of all the abilities that do x, y, z and also heal you.

That way healers can exist again.

Especially once everyone has companions. You're going to see healers fade in everything but vet HM and most vet trials.

There's too much damage, and there's way too much passive healing.

Everest_Lionheart

Ceejengine wrote: »

I think the changes are primarily to address burst damage. I dont think they ever wanted anyone hitting 90k dps sustained. Obv taking it away now that people had it will upset them.

Especially because something like 85% of the playerbase main DPS characters.

I think once they've gotten a good set up for damage they need to go and strip extra heals out of all the abilities that do x, y, z and also heal you.

That way healers can exist again.

Especially once everyone has companions. You're going to see healers fade in everything but vet HM and most vet trials.

There's too much damage, and there's way too much passive healing.

The amount of people pulling 90k+ is a tiny fraction of the overall player base. Those people will still pull 90k+ no matter how you nerf them because they know how to optimize. The people hurt the most by the nerfs are those stuck in the 40-50K zone which is adequate for most of the hardest content. Those people are already dealing with the mechs and nerfs are forcing them to deal with extra rounds of mechs that the top tier are still skipping. If the 40-50 crowd could hit 55-60 they would reduce but not eliminate all the mechs they are up against. Prior to CP 2.0 I have several folks in my guilds that were on around that 60k number which is a comfortable place and offers a good balance of burn plus mechs. Those people are now struggling for 45-50 because they can’t figure out how to properly spec and switch things up to get close to their old numbers.

I’m at the upper mid tier and I struggled for a bit until I swapped gear, skills, cp and changed up rotation. Was 80-85 before on all toons, now 78-82 after lots of extra work to optimize my builds. I had fallen all the way back to 70-75 initially. The overall effect on my was minimal and I figure after the next power nerf I will prob land in the 70-75 range for a few weeks until I tweak some more. Those 40-50k people will drop to 35-45 and probably never recover.

Bottom line is, there is no needing the high end experience unless they cap the damage and if that happens people will lose their minds. Vertical progression is already minimal at best and much of the CP gains amount to a whole lot of nothing when you really break it down. Soon enough we will have a half as much of nothing. So glad I didn’t grind with everyone else during the event and I feel sorry for those that are getting their tiny gains wiped away.

VaranisArano

Ceejengine wrote: »

I think the changes are primarily to address burst damage. I dont think they ever wanted anyone hitting 90k dps sustained. Obv taking it away now that people had it will upset them.

Especially because something like 85% of the playerbase main DPS characters.

I think once they've gotten a good set up for damage they need to go and strip extra heals out of all the abilities that do x, y, z and also heal you.

That way healers can exist again.

Especially once everyone has companions. You're going to see healers fade in everything but vet HM and most vet trials.

There's too much damage, and there's way too much passive healing.

At what level of content do you want healers to exist?


Pulling self-heals out of damaging skills isn't going to make your healer any more relevant in normal dungeons. The content just isn't that challenging for experienced players. It's not going to stop experienced players from queueing as fake tanks or fake healers - consider that any DD who's run vMA or soloed a dungeon already doesn't "need" a tank or a healer, no matter that it usually makes the run more efficient.

It IS going to make the experience more miserable for newer players who now have less ability to compensate for the lack of a real healer when they, inevitably, get a fake healer. Those players tend to rely on self-heal+damage skills like Bloodcraze from Dual Wield or their class self-healing/damage skills like DK's Burning Embers or Templar Puncturing Sweeps. At least Vigor is a LOT more accessible for Stam builds than it used to be - though it might be that you'd say that too makes healers less relevant.

Speaking from experience in random normals, I run a DD-with-a-taunt MagSorc who has the Twilight Matriarch. When I've had a fake healer, I can pretty easily compensate with the Matriarch's burst heal as long as the fake healer doesn't also sprint ahead, aggro everything, and die instantly.


Fortunately for healers, it seems like Companions can't handle most normal dungeon bosses. So I don't think Bastian and Mirri are coming for your jobs just yet.

EmEm_Oh

Jaimeh wrote: »

Testing hasn't started but despite the cp nerf, for which the values are not that big in terms of impact in pve (with the exception of pen for stam) there's other sources of damage added, and the change to proc sets, so it might not be a nerf overall.

So, why do it. A lot of us are getting tired of the promises then stepping back on them. Either give us CP power or don't. Leave CP the hell alone and just tinkle on monster sets or something.

Sure, it sucks starting out in ANY GAME and it does take time to gain experience, power, and abilities, but you have to show respect to the players who have been here for years, literally investing in this company with their subs and crown purchases.

Adaarye

Ceejengine wrote: »

I think the changes are primarily to address burst damage. I dont think they ever wanted anyone hitting 90k dps sustained. Obv taking it away now that people had it will upset them.

Especially because something like 85% of the playerbase main DPS characters.

I think once they've gotten a good set up for damage they need to go and strip extra heals out of all the abilities that do x, y, z and also heal you.

That way healers can exist again.

Especially once everyone has companions. You're going to see healers fade in everything but vet HM and most vet trials.

There's too much damage, and there's way too much passive healing.

I have three healers so I've already begun my preparations for healers fading away completely. Vet PUGS, good ones, are very difficult to find. I'm tired of the grind. Vet trials are once a week.

I've started concentrating on trading. I own 35 houses. My goal is to see how much money I can make and how many rare recipes I can collect to decorate those houses.

I've reinstalled Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (SSE). Might as well since ESO has become single player for many healers at least until companions are released.

I'm ready.

So yeah .. it's not so bad.

GarnetFire17

my issue is the 2000 or so CP on the end they didn't need to include as they don't really provide much value at all other than the cost of not having to respec. If you are going to give us 2000 extra levels to grind I think it's fair to expect something pretty good for it.

Ceejengine

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ceejengine wrote: »

I think the changes are primarily to address burst damage. I dont think they ever wanted anyone hitting 90k dps sustained. Obv taking it away now that people had it will upset them.

Especially because something like 85% of the playerbase main DPS characters.

I think once they've gotten a good set up for damage they need to go and strip extra heals out of all the abilities that do x, y, z and also heal you.

That way healers can exist again.

Especially once everyone has companions. You're going to see healers fade in everything but vet HM and most vet trials.

There's too much damage, and there's way too much passive healing.

At what level of content do you want healers to exist?


Pulling self-heals out of damaging skills isn't going to make your healer any more relevant in normal dungeons. The content just isn't that challenging for experienced players. It's not going to stop experienced players from queueing as fake tanks or fake healers - consider that any DD who's run vMA or soloed a dungeon already doesn't "need" a tank or a healer, no matter that it usually makes the run more efficient.

It IS going to make the experience more miserable for newer players who now have less ability to compensate for the lack of a real healer when they, inevitably, get a fake healer. Those players tend to rely on self-heal+damage skills like Bloodcraze from Dual Wield or their class self-healing/damage skills like DK's Burning Embers or Templar Puncturing Sweeps. At least Vigor is a LOT more accessible for Stam builds than it used to be - though it might be that you'd say that too makes healers less relevant.

Speaking from experience in random normals, I run a DD-with-a-taunt MagSorc who has the Twilight Matriarch. When I've had a fake healer, I can pretty easily compensate with the Matriarch's burst heal as long as the fake healer doesn't also sprint ahead, aggro everything, and die instantly.


Fortunately for healers, it seems like Companions can't handle most normal dungeon bosses. So I don't think Bastian and Mirri are coming for your jobs just yet.

I want healers to exist at the same level as everyone else. We can say by taking self-heals out of most multi-function abilities we strip emergency tools for low-skill players, but what about low skill healers?

Heals are only valued in harder content. Hard to practice for harder content when you have no reason to exist outside of it. You literally cannot practice your vet trial healing anywhere but in vet trials.

Not to mention I think that highlights a significant issue in the game's design. The flow of combat is inconsistent and requires every skill to do x+y and also heal.

Additionally, basing balance around people queueing as fake tanks / heals doesn't work. A 4 man group of newer players SHOULD need a tank, a healer, and 2 DDs. You SHOULD be experiencing that makeup. Just because Q's are so long because no one wants to play as real tanks / heals because of a toxic playerbase and imbalanced skills just goes to show how much we need healers to be reinstated into the game.

I would have ZERO qualms if you couldn't clear base game dungeons without a good team comp. It'd immediately eliminate 80% of fake tanks / heals who realize they're never getting to the end of the dungeon. It might even encourage people to pick up a shield or resto staff. But as of right now, the game heavily favors DPS players / builds, and until that's addressed, fake tank / heals is going to be a persistent problem.

It'd also be another step towards combatting immortal tanks in PvP. And mass AoE heals making ball groups immortal too.

If players had to spec specifically into healing and healing as an extra part of 99% of all skills was removed except in healer-specific skills / morphs, I think it'd be incredibly healthy for ever aspect of the game, especially end game.