"We're Taking Some of the Power Out of the High End Experience"

Anonx31st

It's great that newer players will have a better opportunity to compete with season veterans that have had 7+ years to increase their power disparity towards them. Thank you ZOS for helping new players like my friends not to become discouraged when doing end game content when I mentioned that the new cap was 3600. I hope ZOS adjusts this power gap disadvantage even more for the sake of ESO's longevity.

Anonx31st

Lab3360 wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

thread full of useless complains. Unless you are going for godslayer or leaderboard top score runs, these changes won't affect you. You can do vSS with 50k dps. You can do 70k quite easily now, how much lower it will be after? you all talk about endgame content like you are in godslayer progs and struggling.

1) most of the people on the forums are better than the average population and there is actually a ton of representation of endgame players here who ARE doing that content and struggling.

2) you can have empathy for other people even when it's not you. I mean not be a godslayer or trying for it. But I can recognize it's bs that players on ps4 NA already can barely do it and it took literally months for it to happen because they don't have addons and zos seems to think everyone does. I can understand and feel empathy for how much that must be frustrating to them without needing to be them.

Im on ps4 and dps is absolutely terrible. If you input light attacks too fast, the server has to play catch up 20% of the time and wont even register your light attacks..

Im going to start a post about every single thing that is wrong with this game and then ask why they feel necessary to nerf endgame players when we cant even play the game efficiently yet.

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

I disagree. If you compare this MMO to the cash shop of others, you would know this statement isn't true.

Ellimist_Entreri

Anonx31st wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

thread full of useless complains. Unless you are going for godslayer or leaderboard top score runs, these changes won't affect you. You can do vSS with 50k dps. You can do 70k quite easily now, how much lower it will be after? you all talk about endgame content like you are in godslayer progs and struggling.

1) most of the people on the forums are better than the average population and there is actually a ton of representation of endgame players here who ARE doing that content and struggling.

2) you can have empathy for other people even when it's not you. I mean not be a godslayer or trying for it. But I can recognize it's bs that players on ps4 NA already can barely do it and it took literally months for it to happen because they don't have addons and zos seems to think everyone does. I can understand and feel empathy for how much that must be frustrating to them without needing to be them.

Im on ps4 and dps is absolutely terrible. If you input light attacks too fast, the server has to play catch up 20% of the time and wont even register your light attacks..

Im going to start a post about every single thing that is wrong with this game and then ask why they feel necessary to nerf endgame players when we cant even play the game efficiently yet.

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

I disagree. If you compare this MMO to the cash shop of others, you would know this statement isn't true.

This is about the only thing I agree with you on - the cash shop here is fairly tame compared to many others.

Anonx31st wrote: »

It's great that newer players will have a better opportunity to compete with season veterans that have had 7+ years to increase their power disparity towards them. Thank you ZOS for helping new players like my friends not to become discouraged when doing end game content when I mentioned that the new cap was 3600. I hope ZOS adjusts this power gap disadvantage even more for the sake of ESO's longevity.

I think it's sad that ZOS would rather strip away earned progress from players [snip] All they are doing is gatekeeping the number of users capable of clearing content.

I started actively playing ESO again in September. Since then I have gone from what I now understand to be a Transmute Tonk main with 0 Champ on my current PC account, to an average vet Trial ready DPS at 1200+. In my case this means I am currently pushing anywhere from 65k-85k on my main DPS classes. I was pushing over 97k U28.

Your argument that it takes 7+ years to reach that level of player strength is completely false.

Your argument that any of the changes with U29 or U30 as they are currently on PTS helps ease the fact that the cap is ~still~ 3600 for your friend is blatantly flawed.

Your argument that any of these changes actually help your friend to clear the "End Game Content" is also false, as stated by myself and others previously in this and many other threads the users impacted the most are those trying to progress to and through the end-game content; They have to spend days or weeks each update just to get back to where they had been the day before the update came out. Meanwhile those 7+ year vets you seem to love blaming for sticking around are still capable of clearing the same content they were before with little or no adjustment needed on their part each cycle. (I'll not hypothesize how they know ahead of time what adjustments to make - that's between them and ZOS I am certain)

If ZOS continues to follow this course of action the only players they will have are those who don't stick around.*
*& those that are so invested into their accounts they would ride the wave directly into Oblivion.

[Edited to remove Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation]

Lab3360

Anonx31st wrote: »

It's great that newer players will have a better opportunity to compete with season veterans that have had 7+ years to increase their power disparity towards them. Thank you ZOS for helping new players like my friends not to become discouraged when doing end game content when I mentioned that the new cap was 3600. I hope ZOS adjusts this power gap disadvantage even more for the sake of ESO's longevity.

The nerf does not help you progress to endgame. It will make it more difficult for you.

Also, if your happy about the change because it hurts endgame players, you can expect the same thing to happen to you when and if you reach endgame. I guess then you wont appreciate it so much.

Lab3360

Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »

Anonx31st wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

thread full of useless complains. Unless you are going for godslayer or leaderboard top score runs, these changes won't affect you. You can do vSS with 50k dps. You can do 70k quite easily now, how much lower it will be after? you all talk about endgame content like you are in godslayer progs and struggling.

1) most of the people on the forums are better than the average population and there is actually a ton of representation of endgame players here who ARE doing that content and struggling.

2) you can have empathy for other people even when it's not you. I mean not be a godslayer or trying for it. But I can recognize it's bs that players on ps4 NA already can barely do it and it took literally months for it to happen because they don't have addons and zos seems to think everyone does. I can understand and feel empathy for how much that must be frustrating to them without needing to be them.

Im on ps4 and dps is absolutely terrible. If you input light attacks too fast, the server has to play catch up 20% of the time and wont even register your light attacks..

Im going to start a post about every single thing that is wrong with this game and then ask why they feel necessary to nerf endgame players when we cant even play the game efficiently yet.

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

I disagree. If you compare this MMO to the cash shop of others, you would know this statement isn't true.

This is about the only thing I agree with you on - the cash shop here is fairly tame compared to many others.

Anonx31st wrote: »

It's great that newer players will have a better opportunity to compete with season veterans that have had 7+ years to increase their power disparity towards them. Thank you ZOS for helping new players like my friends not to become discouraged when doing end game content when I mentioned that the new cap was 3600. I hope ZOS adjusts this power gap disadvantage even more for the sake of ESO's longevity.

I think it's sad that ZOS would rather strip away earned progress from players [snip] All they are doing is gatekeeping the number of users capable of clearing content.

I started actively playing ESO again in September. Since then I have gone from what I now understand to be a Transmute Tonk main with 0 Champ on my current PC account, to an average vet Trial ready DPS at 1200+. In my case this means I am currently pushing anywhere from 65k-85k on my main DPS classes. I was pushing over 97k U28.

Your argument that it takes 7+ years to reach that level of player strength is completely false.

Your argument that any of the changes with U29 or U30 as they are currently on PTS helps ease the fact that the cap is ~still~ 3600 for your friend is blatantly flawed.

Your argument that any of these changes actually help your friend to clear the "End Game Content" is also false, as stated by myself and others previously in this and many other threads the users impacted the most are those trying to progress to and through the end-game content; They have to spend days or weeks each update just to get back to where they had been the day before the update came out. Meanwhile those 7+ year vets you seem to love blaming for sticking around are still capable of clearing the same content they were before with little or no adjustment needed on their part each cycle. (I'll not hypothesize how they know ahead of time what adjustments to make - that's between them and ZOS I am certain)

If ZOS continues to follow this course of action the only players they will have are those who don't stick around.*
*& those that are so invested into their accounts they would ride the wave directly into Oblivion.

The guy you quoted clearly has no clue what he is talking about. He is a new player who doesnt realize he will be facing the same treatment when reaching endgame
(Thats if he will even have the balls to weather through all the crap ZOS will throw at its playerbase in the process).

My vote is that he won't just based on the character of his comments

aetherial_heavenn

spartaxoxo wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Was fun being at 47k while it lasted.

10-15% from the highest performing DPS which prior to FOA were hitting 115k at times. This would drop them down below 100k hopefully.

As your rotations and such weren’t optimized to hit this clearly any DPS hit you take would be significantly smaller (or depending on builds you may even get a boost). It’s all for closing the gap between them and you.

"Them and you"... you mean those 100k parses on Youtube that almost no one can get? Especially on console?? That is NOT what a game should be balanced around, and punishing those who do hit those numbers because others can't is wrong. Don't fool yourself by thinking any of the changes ever help lower level players. Nerfs hurt everyone and always have.

It wasn’t the developers design to have any players hitting 100k+ DPS. That much has been clear for a long time. Since CP increases were stopped in Murkmire new sets allowed lower performing players to increase their DPS and complete content without stagnating. The con is that the top performing DPS players also increased their output. So you increases the ability for all players to complete content but at the same time did nothing or increased the power gap between them.

The new CP 2.0 has indeed begun to close the gap. I see CP 400 players that with rotations can hit close to CP 1800 players. Furthermore the top end DPS nerfs allow the developers to once again build balanced content. Currently one shot mechanics are pervasive to deal with high DPS that burns through stuff too fast and can withstand everything. Yet at the same time lower end players couldn’t even complete the stuff.

This all needed to happen

what really needs to happen is perfect rotation gear and timing not outdpsing the floor 5 to 1 or more.

Until something is done about that. Everything is always just gonna be a bandaid.

No. What needs to happen is that the dps checks and one shots need to be toned down. I haven't really played many games that solved this problem with nerfing constantly. Most ones I played they solved it by making the content completeable by everyone who followed the mechanics with reasonable accuracy, so that what all that extra dps bought you was time and money and not content completion.

There are some exceptions, but I think that would much better suit this game. I remember drinking energy drinks at like 2 in the morning to stay awake to beat a difficult raid with average players after having bashed our heads in at for like 5-6 hours. But then we got it done and the elation and happiness was through the roof.

Meanwhile the top players could clear the thing and sell off something from it for millions of coins in like 30 minutes.

That experience seems much more appropriate to me than the current system where you have to be in the top like 5 percent of players to even begin to consider doing it.

My emphasis.
The CP passive tweaks being more impt. in helping low -mid CP players through weighting and diminishing returns seemed to be executed OK for new CP to about CP 400. Somewhere the maths went wrong, meaning the players in 900-1200 CP ground to get back to where they were prior to the change just so they could continue to do the CP PvP or the progression PvE that they had been doing prior to CP2.0. Now they feel slapped in the face. AND GREEN CP IS STILL A HOT MESS.

Throwing new untested OP gear at players to 'raise the floor' only 'raises the ceiling'...factorially sometimes. And it always completely blows PVP balance out the window. Why even add this new [expletive] ill thought out mythic stuff at the same time as redoing CP, balance and sets? It's bound to be abused by the top 5% of PTS/theory crafters/endgamers while doing little for the majority who won't even be aware of it for weeks or at least until the latest streamers' out of game guides become common knowledge. Then it will get nerfed just as those same players it was designed to assist finally get it collected.....A cycle I've seen every mythic/BiS set. And boy, does it make people mad.

(Throw mythic items as a new set in during the RP festival weeks when combat balance has been left alone for a while and the average player is inspired to use them and grind for them. Maybe make them unusable with battle spirit. Or test them better.)

Also, I thought 'we' (ie the typing/chatting part of the community) had said proc sets shouldn't outweigh the damage available from using class/weapon skills optimally. Nor should damage scale off health. Nor should high damage be available while holding block. Also, a class shouldn't need a proc set in order to do reasonably competitive damage against another class /player that is just using stats sets and class skills. Nor should proc sets on a new player make them out-compete a good player because there are zero class counters to the proc. Procs should be the icing not the cake.

A lot of us enjoy this MMO in particular, because grinding gear/CP every patch is not the only thing needed to play 'endgame'. Getting there fast is not the only reason to play better every day because there is plenty to do whether PvP PvE or RP at all levels.

If the design of the power-through-progression/meaningful choice changes further hollows out the B-graders'/I'm nearly there! people's chance of achieving A-grade (with time and practice) between major design change cycles/expansions, people will get really frustrated. Again.


typos edited:

Lab3360

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Was fun being at 47k while it lasted.

10-15% from the highest performing DPS which prior to FOA were hitting 115k at times. This would drop them down below 100k hopefully.

As your rotations and such weren’t optimized to hit this clearly any DPS hit you take would be significantly smaller (or depending on builds you may even get a boost). It’s all for closing the gap between them and you.

"Them and you"... you mean those 100k parses on Youtube that almost no one can get? Especially on console?? That is NOT what a game should be balanced around, and punishing those who do hit those numbers because others can't is wrong. Don't fool yourself by thinking any of the changes ever help lower level players. Nerfs hurt everyone and always have.

It wasn’t the developers design to have any players hitting 100k+ DPS. That much has been clear for a long time. Since CP increases were stopped in Murkmire new sets allowed lower performing players to increase their DPS and complete content without stagnating. The con is that the top performing DPS players also increased their output. So you increases the ability for all players to complete content but at the same time did nothing or increased the power gap between them.

The new CP 2.0 has indeed begun to close the gap. I see CP 400 players that with rotations can hit close to CP 1800 players. Furthermore the top end DPS nerfs allow the developers to once again build balanced content. Currently one shot mechanics are pervasive to deal with high DPS that burns through stuff too fast and can withstand everything. Yet at the same time lower end players couldn’t even complete the stuff.

This all needed to happen

what really needs to happen is perfect rotation gear and timing not outdpsing the floor 5 to 1 or more.

Until something is done about that. Everything is always just gonna be a bandaid.

No. What needs to happen is that the dps checks and one shots need to be toned down. I haven't really played many games that solved this problem with nerfing constantly. Most ones I played they solved it by making the content completeable by everyone who followed the mechanics with reasonable accuracy, so that what all that extra dps bought you was time and money and not content completion.

There are some exceptions, but I think that would much better suit this game. I remember drinking energy drinks at like 2 in the morning to stay awake to beat a difficult raid with average players after having bashed our heads in at for like 5-6 hours. But then we got it done and the elation and happiness was through the roof.

Meanwhile the top players could clear the thing and sell off something from it for millions of coins in like 30 minutes.

That experience seems much more appropriate to me than the current system where you have to be in the top like 5 percent of players to even begin to consider doing it.

My emphasis.
The CP passive tweaks being more impt. in helping low -mid CP players through weighting and diminishing returns seemed to be executed OK for new CP to about CP 400. Somewhere the maths went wrong, meaning the players in 900-1200 CP ground to get back to where they were prior to the change just so they could continue to do the CP PvP or the progression PvE that they had been doing prior to CP2.0. Now they feel slapped in the face. AND GREEN CP IS STILL A HOT MESS.

Throwing new untested OP gear at players to 'raise the floor' only 'raises the ceiling'...factorially sometimes. And it always completely blows PVP balance out the window. Why even add this new [expletive] ill thought out mythic stuff at the same time as redoing CP, balance and sets? It's bound to be abused by the top 5% of PTS/theory crafters/endgamers while doing little for the majority who won't even be aware of it for weeks or at least until the latest streamers' out of game guides become common knowledge. Then it will get nerfed just as those same players it was designed to assist finally get it collected.....A cycle I've seen every mythic/BiS set. And boy, does it make people mad.

(Throw mythic items as a new set in during the RP festival weeks when combat balance has been left alone for a while and the average player is inspired to use them and grind for them. Maybe make them unusable with battle spirit. Or test them better.)

Also, I thought 'we' (ie the typing/chatting part of the community) had said proc sets shouldn't outweigh the damage available from using class/weapon skills optimally. Nor should damage scale off health. Nor should high damage be available while holding block. Also, a class shouldn't need a proc set in order to do reasonably competitive damage against another class /player that is just using stats sets and class skills. Nor should proc sets on a new player make them out-compete a good player because there are zero class counters to the proc. Procs should be the icing not the cake.

A lot of us enjoy this MMO in particular, because grinding gear/CP every patch is not the only thing needed to play 'endgame'. Getting there fast is not the only reason to play better every day because there is plenty to do whether PvP PvE or RP at all levels.

If the design of the power-through-progression/meaningful choice changes further hollows out the B-graders'/I'm nearly there! people's chance of achieving A-grade (with time and practice) between major design change cycles/expansions, people will get really frustrated. Again.


typos edited:

You hit the nail on the head

Sangwyne

Lab3360 wrote: »

The guy you quoted clearly has no clue what he is talking about. He is a new player who doesnt realize he will be facing the same treatment when reaching endgame

There really needs to be a poll to see whether players are actually looking forward to these changes, or if it's just like one dude named Fred from Missouri that's allergic to fun. ZOS keeps saying they are nerfing CP and taking all the power out of it "based on feedback" but then I see multiple page posts with dozens of reactions practically unanimously agreeing that they don't like the changes and maybe one post that kinda supports it.

ErMurazor

carlos424 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

From the pts patch notes it seems like damage and mitigation are being nerfed only a bit, if at all. So it is not all doom and gloom. We are probably going to be a lot stronger, thanks to our new p2w mythic.
From previous patch:

This PTS cycle:

I despise mythic items, and that piece will only make people feel artificially strong while dummy parsing. In actual content I feel like it will have very limited usefulness.

Na, this will be on every dps in trials in it’s current form. Gain a stack every second from direct damage? So you will basically be fully stacked after 10 seconds. You only lose 1 stack when you take direct damage. How many direct damage hits does one take in a trial? If youre dps, not many and still survive. And even if you do, you lose only 1 stack, which you will immediately gain back with every light attack. This is op. 1190 crit chance and 20% crit damage at full stacks? Ya, op.
In fact, you can probably drop the 10% crit damage node and add one of the new ones like master at arms-probably would do that anyway without the legs, but now you basically keep the crit (double what node was giving) and add master at arms. I’d be surprised if this isn’t nerfed. Hope not tho

Ppl posting 110k+ parses with the new mythic and master at arms on pts. Not sure Power went down.....and ZoS will sell alot of Blackwood chapters

Diva_Naoko

Kurat wrote: »

Only passive stars got nerfed. Most dps buffs come from slottables and remained the same. So the nerf from cp is only 1-2%.
But there are other nerfs like sets and skills (orb - major nerf for mag dps).

What you mean "only passive stars got nerfed"? All CP stars are passive; only some one needs to slot to get the buff. Sorry, i'm not English native speaker and sometimes this - together with other things - get me into trouble on forums.

As for the amount, they were slashed by half, i,e, 50%. I would say that's quite a substantial nerf, not peanuts as some are claiming. Scaling also means that dps is nerfed together with the base resource pool.

On the green constellation, would love to have seen them separate crafting from gathering from justice. Why does one need to put/waste points into "inspiration boost" if one wants to build a thief or a gatherer (not a crafter) character? They should really revise this path so as to not require us to waste points. Has anyone mentioned this, i wonder? Most comments i see are about dps and sustain nerfs.

Agree that other nerfs are going under the radar, orbs included. My main is mag dps, and i'm worried about the power drop to come.

As others have commented, Blackwood risks becoming the most unpopular update to ESO since 2016 (when i started); maybe even since launch.

Diva_Naoko

Sangwyne wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

The guy you quoted clearly has no clue what he is talking about. He is a new player who doesnt realize he will be facing the same treatment when reaching endgame

There really needs to be a poll to see whether players are actually looking forward to these changes, or if it's just like one dude named Fred from Missouri that's allergic to fun. ZOS keeps saying they are nerfing CP and taking all the power out of it "based on feedback" but then I see multiple page posts with dozens of reactions practically unanimously agreeing that they don't like the changes and maybe one post that kinda supports it.

Very much so, and i would love to see ZOS actively acting on other player feedback as well. There's plenty players have asked in these forums that ZOS never delivered or even cared to comment.

VaranisArano

Sangwyne wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

The guy you quoted clearly has no clue what he is talking about. He is a new player who doesnt realize he will be facing the same treatment when reaching endgame

There really needs to be a poll to see whether players are actually looking forward to these changes, or if it's just like one dude named Fred from Missouri that's allergic to fun. ZOS keeps saying they are nerfing CP and taking all the power out of it "based on feedback" but then I see multiple page posts with dozens of reactions practically unanimously agreeing that they don't like the changes and maybe one post that kinda supports it.

Look, the springtime allergies in Missouri are brutal. Poor Fred!

- Me, another player from the fine state of "Misery." When we lived in St. Louis, spring pollen used to turn our blue car green.

SidraWillowsky

ErMurazor wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

From the pts patch notes it seems like damage and mitigation are being nerfed only a bit, if at all. So it is not all doom and gloom. We are probably going to be a lot stronger, thanks to our new p2w mythic.
From previous patch:

This PTS cycle:

I despise mythic items, and that piece will only make people feel artificially strong while dummy parsing. In actual content I feel like it will have very limited usefulness.

Na, this will be on every dps in trials in it’s current form. Gain a stack every second from direct damage? So you will basically be fully stacked after 10 seconds. You only lose 1 stack when you take direct damage. How many direct damage hits does one take in a trial? If youre dps, not many and still survive. And even if you do, you lose only 1 stack, which you will immediately gain back with every light attack. This is op. 1190 crit chance and 20% crit damage at full stacks? Ya, op.
In fact, you can probably drop the 10% crit damage node and add one of the new ones like master at arms-probably would do that anyway without the legs, but now you basically keep the crit (double what node was giving) and add master at arms. I’d be surprised if this isn’t nerfed. Hope not tho

Ppl posting 110k+ parses with the new mythic and master at arms on pts. Not sure Power went down.....and ZoS will sell alot of Blackwood chapters

I concur with the person above you... I really, really hate these cheese Mythic sets for parsing. They're a lot of fun, but the parse numbers people pull are hardly representative of the power gain/loss. It's hard to get an idea of how things *really* change when there's this stupid OP set that will almost certainly get nerfed to the ground soon enough. And sure, in organized groups it's going to be insane, but I'm not sure that the average player is going to benefit as much from it.

From my tests, stam DDs are going to be fine even without the Waders and even without Master at Arms; I parsed in the PTS using the exact same build I use on live, and on a stam DD, my DPS on the trial dummy went up.

It's an entirely different story for magicka DDs- my DPS took a nosedive. Monster sets are too weak to use. My crit numbers are abysmal. It skyrockets when I use the waders, but I'm not sure that I typically play in groups that are organized enough to make them work...

Lord_Nikon

This whole CP garbage makes me think of cable or phone companies.

You’re with them for years as loyal customers and get nothing for it. (Nerf to experienced players)

All the deals and savings are offered to the new subscribers. (Let’s lower the ceiling)

In then end I usually switch companies and the one I was loyal to for years looses my business. (Hmmmm 🤔)

Hallothiel

None of the other MMOs I've played forced me to make a choice between playing end content and not destroying my hands just to manage combat. My toon is the one that's supposed to have all the physical skills, all I'm supposed to need to do is make choices and have reasonable hand-eye coordination. I shouldn't have to program myself with hours of repetitive motion and make matters even worse.

This. So much this.

Seriously, it’s a game I play for fun and I should be expected to practice with a damn metronome to have a good rotation? Does some of those advocating this not see how utterly insane this requirement is - IN A GAME?!!

AuraStorm43

Abelon wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Was fun being at 47k while it lasted.

10-15% from the highest performing DPS which prior to FOA were hitting 115k at times. This would drop them down below 100k hopefully.

As your rotations and such weren’t optimized to hit this clearly any DPS hit you take would be significantly smaller (or depending on builds you may even get a boost). It’s all for closing the gap between them and you.

"Them and you"... you mean those 100k parses on Youtube that almost no one can get? Especially on console?? That is NOT what a game should be balanced around, and punishing those who do hit those numbers because others can't is wrong. Don't fool yourself by thinking any of the changes ever help lower level players. Nerfs hurt everyone and always have.

It wasn’t the developers design to have any players hitting 100k+ DPS. That much has been clear for a long time. Since CP increases were stopped in Murkmire new sets allowed lower performing players to increase their DPS and complete content without stagnating. The con is that the top performing DPS players also increased their output. So you increases the ability for all players to complete content but at the same time did nothing or increased the power gap between them.

The new CP 2.0 has indeed begun to close the gap. I see CP 400 players that with rotations can hit close to CP 1800 players. Furthermore the top end DPS nerfs allow the developers to once again build balanced content. Currently one shot mechanics are pervasive to deal with high DPS that burns through stuff too fast and can withstand everything. Yet at the same time lower end players couldn’t even complete the stuff.

This all needed to happen

what really needs to happen is perfect rotation gear and timing not outdpsing the floor 5 to 1 or more.

Until something is done about that. Everything is always just gonna be a bandaid.

Almost agree, but. The top players who manage to squeeze out a 100k-120k dps on a dummy don't do so because they came up with a "perfect" build that nobody else can put together. 99% of players can copy those builds down to every tiny detail and end up dealing 70k max.

Why? Because "rotation" and "timing" aka animation canceling aka a stupid bug that should have been fixed years ago. At the very least something should have been done about LA damage... maybe. Or they should have increased the damage of heavy attacks. Or they should have actually worked on "weaving" and given it more forgiving timings so more players could manage it. Oh and then there are the people who will never manage weaving because of high ping.

But nah. Let's nerf CP further, that will totally destroy that huge dps difference between the "floor and the ceiling." As a result all of those nerfs hit the players who rely on gear the most. Those who rely on their rotations will keep on setting dps records.

And no, I'm not even saying we should remove animation cancelling (though I sure wish it happened a long time ago), it is obvious that certain groups of players would downright leave the game if it happened. But something needs to be done with it. If ZOS managed to lower the dps difference originating from it. We would all be enjoying the benefits. Like hopefully less CP nerfs once it becomes obvious that CP is not the problem.

Animation canceling is not a bug its a feature, the game even encourages it in load screens

Lab3360

ErMurazor wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

From the pts patch notes it seems like damage and mitigation are being nerfed only a bit, if at all. So it is not all doom and gloom. We are probably going to be a lot stronger, thanks to our new p2w mythic.
From previous patch:

This PTS cycle:

I despise mythic items, and that piece will only make people feel artificially strong while dummy parsing. In actual content I feel like it will have very limited usefulness.

Na, this will be on every dps in trials in it’s current form. Gain a stack every second from direct damage? So you will basically be fully stacked after 10 seconds. You only lose 1 stack when you take direct damage. How many direct damage hits does one take in a trial? If youre dps, not many and still survive. And even if you do, you lose only 1 stack, which you will immediately gain back with every light attack. This is op. 1190 crit chance and 20% crit damage at full stacks? Ya, op.
In fact, you can probably drop the 10% crit damage node and add one of the new ones like master at arms-probably would do that anyway without the legs, but now you basically keep the crit (double what node was giving) and add master at arms. I’d be surprised if this isn’t nerfed. Hope not tho

Ppl posting 110k+ parses with the new mythic and master at arms on pts. Not sure Power went down.....and ZoS will sell alot of Blackwood chapters

If the parse are true, then I wont be buying the chapter just to buy mythics. Sounds like pay to win with a nerf set setup to nudge people into buying chapter.

Not to mention zos will just end up nerfing the mythics after they get everyones money. Rinse and repeat. No thanks!

Lab3360

Lord_Nikon wrote: »

This whole CP garbage makes me think of cable or phone companies.

You’re with them for years as loyal customers and get nothing for it. (Nerf to experienced players)

All the deals and savings are offered to the new subscribers. (Let’s lower the ceiling)

In then end I usually switch companies and the one I was loyal to for years looses my business. (Hmmmm 🤔)

Exactly..and .my wallet slams shut

Raegwyr

ErMurazor wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

From the pts patch notes it seems like damage and mitigation are being nerfed only a bit, if at all. So it is not all doom and gloom. We are probably going to be a lot stronger, thanks to our new p2w mythic.
From previous patch:

This PTS cycle:

I despise mythic items, and that piece will only make people feel artificially strong while dummy parsing. In actual content I feel like it will have very limited usefulness.

Na, this will be on every dps in trials in it’s current form. Gain a stack every second from direct damage? So you will basically be fully stacked after 10 seconds. You only lose 1 stack when you take direct damage. How many direct damage hits does one take in a trial? If youre dps, not many and still survive. And even if you do, you lose only 1 stack, which you will immediately gain back with every light attack. This is op. 1190 crit chance and 20% crit damage at full stacks? Ya, op.
In fact, you can probably drop the 10% crit damage node and add one of the new ones like master at arms-probably would do that anyway without the legs, but now you basically keep the crit (double what node was giving) and add master at arms. I’d be surprised if this isn’t nerfed. Hope not tho

Ppl posting 110k+ parses with the new mythic and master at arms on pts. Not sure Power went down.....and ZoS will sell alot of Blackwood chapters

Only because of new mythic. ZOS will nerf it 3 months later like they did with thrassians and we will stay with no mythic and even weaker chars.
At this point I'm really looking forward for another game as I'm done with zos spitting at vet players. I understand catering to new ppl but at this point zos treatment towards vets is ridiculous.

Ellimist_Entreri

ErMurazor wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

From the pts patch notes it seems like damage and mitigation are being nerfed only a bit, if at all. So it is not all doom and gloom. We are probably going to be a lot stronger, thanks to our new p2w mythic.
From previous patch:

This PTS cycle:

I despise mythic items, and that piece will only make people feel artificially strong while dummy parsing. In actual content I feel like it will have very limited usefulness.

Na, this will be on every dps in trials in it’s current form. Gain a stack every second from direct damage? So you will basically be fully stacked after 10 seconds. You only lose 1 stack when you take direct damage. How many direct damage hits does one take in a trial? If youre dps, not many and still survive. And even if you do, you lose only 1 stack, which you will immediately gain back with every light attack. This is op. 1190 crit chance and 20% crit damage at full stacks? Ya, op.
In fact, you can probably drop the 10% crit damage node and add one of the new ones like master at arms-probably would do that anyway without the legs, but now you basically keep the crit (double what node was giving) and add master at arms. I’d be surprised if this isn’t nerfed. Hope not tho

Ppl posting 110k+ parses with the new mythic and master at arms on pts. Not sure Power went down.....and ZoS will sell alot of Blackwood chapters

Just a heads up, that mythic is for sure going to be considered a cheese regarding parses since there is no way to adequately maintain the boost granted from it during actual combat scenarios in live content - therefore any and all parses using it are automatically considered invalid and not representative of the actual state of player power in game to anyone serious about their DPS. This same logic applies to double dagger magicka parses this cycle; sure you can hit those numbers with that setup in a controlled environment without moving or taking damage while standing next to a dummy. Doesn't matter in real content.

Vaoh

BuildMan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They need to adjust high end achievements accordingly then. There are some achievements that were already excruciatingly more difficult on console WITH that higher power because of the fact that console doesn't have addons and must wear the same gear for every fight.

How long did it take someone on console to get godslayer, I believe was the one that people suspected wasn't even possible at first? I can't remember which one because I'm not running that kind of content but I know there was one people were banging their heads against the wall on for months until an xbox group barely managed it.

The time achievements should have the same relative difficulty as they did when people earned those rewards (and should be timed under the presumption that you're not using addons) if they plan on lowering the dps.

I personally have only seen one godslayer on NA ps4. So that basically means 12 people have it total. I asked and first clear was 29:09, latest was 28:46 iirc. If they browse the forums maybe they can correct me.

A handful of groups have Godslayer now on ps4 na - there's been a huge amount of buffs to damage, survivability, etc overtime. Dawnbringer is similar in difficulty but speed isn't an issue for that trifecta so it can be played safer on last boss.

If the Sunspire speed achievement had been 35 minutes (like Kyne's Aegis) there'd be many more GS groups since speed is the hardest part atm. At this point I don't think it should be changed though or it'd devalue what the current groups have done.

Lab3360

Raegwyr wrote: »

ErMurazor wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

From the pts patch notes it seems like damage and mitigation are being nerfed only a bit, if at all. So it is not all doom and gloom. We are probably going to be a lot stronger, thanks to our new p2w mythic.
From previous patch:

This PTS cycle:

I despise mythic items, and that piece will only make people feel artificially strong while dummy parsing. In actual content I feel like it will have very limited usefulness.

Na, this will be on every dps in trials in it’s current form. Gain a stack every second from direct damage? So you will basically be fully stacked after 10 seconds. You only lose 1 stack when you take direct damage. How many direct damage hits does one take in a trial? If youre dps, not many and still survive. And even if you do, you lose only 1 stack, which you will immediately gain back with every light attack. This is op. 1190 crit chance and 20% crit damage at full stacks? Ya, op.
In fact, you can probably drop the 10% crit damage node and add one of the new ones like master at arms-probably would do that anyway without the legs, but now you basically keep the crit (double what node was giving) and add master at arms. I’d be surprised if this isn’t nerfed. Hope not tho

Ppl posting 110k+ parses with the new mythic and master at arms on pts. Not sure Power went down.....and ZoS will sell alot of Blackwood chapters

Only because of new mythic. ZOS will nerf it 3 months later like they did with thrassians and we will stay with no mythic and even weaker chars.
At this point I'm really looking forward for another game as I'm done with zos spitting at vet players. I understand catering to new ppl but at this point zos treatment towards vets is ridiculous.

Im on ps5 NA. Are there any other mmos you can recommend for pc. Im definitely switching to pc? Im tired of limitations of console and being treated like crap by Zos.

I have really had it with this developer.
Manages to really tick me off good and proper this time around.

BlueRaven

This is just my opinion, I am not an expert.

It seems to me the high end dps have already figured out how to compensate for these changes. The high end dps players will continue with little if any changes.

The casual or lower end dps will be hit much harder. They depend upon the unslotable passives much more then the high end players. Their dps will be hit with no clear way for them to compensate for it.

So I think the gap between high and low end players dps will just become wider with u30.

Raegwyr

Lab3360 wrote: »

Raegwyr wrote: »

ErMurazor wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

From the pts patch notes it seems like damage and mitigation are being nerfed only a bit, if at all. So it is not all doom and gloom. We are probably going to be a lot stronger, thanks to our new p2w mythic.
From previous patch:

This PTS cycle:

I despise mythic items, and that piece will only make people feel artificially strong while dummy parsing. In actual content I feel like it will have very limited usefulness.

Na, this will be on every dps in trials in it’s current form. Gain a stack every second from direct damage? So you will basically be fully stacked after 10 seconds. You only lose 1 stack when you take direct damage. How many direct damage hits does one take in a trial? If youre dps, not many and still survive. And even if you do, you lose only 1 stack, which you will immediately gain back with every light attack. This is op. 1190 crit chance and 20% crit damage at full stacks? Ya, op.
In fact, you can probably drop the 10% crit damage node and add one of the new ones like master at arms-probably would do that anyway without the legs, but now you basically keep the crit (double what node was giving) and add master at arms. I’d be surprised if this isn’t nerfed. Hope not tho

Ppl posting 110k+ parses with the new mythic and master at arms on pts. Not sure Power went down.....and ZoS will sell alot of Blackwood chapters

Only because of new mythic. ZOS will nerf it 3 months later like they did with thrassians and we will stay with no mythic and even weaker chars.
At this point I'm really looking forward for another game as I'm done with zos spitting at vet players. I understand catering to new ppl but at this point zos treatment towards vets is ridiculous.

Im on ps5 NA. Are there any other mmos you can recommend for pc. Im definitely switching to pc? Im tired of limitations of console and being treated like crap by Zos.

I have really had it with this developer.
Manages to really tick me off good and proper this time around.

TBH the future of mmo genre looks quite bright right now Crimson Desert, New World, Ashes of Creation, Elyon, Mortal Online 2, Blue Protocol, maybe finally Lost Ark (really hope so).
ESO gets a lot of players because it is "currently best mmo on the market" at least thats how many players are describing it and because of that we can see that zos allow themselves to be lazy and unimaginative (same stale year long story formula for X years without any increase in content quality).
I really hope that the market will be more competitive in near future as it will benefit mostly the players.
ZOS needs a true competition so they can go back to work instead of telling us for years that lower amount of content is because of performance fixes that didn't even fix performance to begin with

Sanguinor2

BlueRaven wrote: »

This is just my opinion, I am not an expert.

It seems to me the high end dps have already figured out how to compensate for these changes. The high end dps players will continue with little if any changes.

The casual or lower end dps will be hit much harder. They depend upon the unslotable passives much more then the high end players. Their dps will be hit with no clear way for them to compensate for it.

So I think the gap between high and low end players dps will just become wider with u30.

Thats pretty much how it always goes. Zos tries to nerf top end, zos does something that nerfs everyone, top end has the easiest time to get around the nerfs, rest does not, top end nerfed the least. Rinse and repeat since about morrowind if I had to guess.

Vaoh

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

This is just my opinion, I am not an expert.

It seems to me the high end dps have already figured out how to compensate for these changes. The high end dps players will continue with little if any changes.

The casual or lower end dps will be hit much harder. They depend upon the unslotable passives much more then the high end players. Their dps will be hit with no clear way for them to compensate for it.

So I think the gap between high and low end players dps will just become wider with u30.

Thats pretty much how it always goes. Zos tries to nerf top end, zos does something that nerfs everyone, top end has the easiest time to get around the nerfs, rest does not, top end nerfed the least. Rinse and repeat since about morrowind if I had to guess.

Yup! In Homestead sustain was a non-issue... then Morrowind launched and they butchered sustain so bad we could barely finish 2-3 rotations. Everyone suffered but high end groups just changed up rotations/gear/group comps etc and continued to complete content.... aka damage dealers swapped to Mag NB for sustain.

A huge amount of endgame players quit though so I'm not too sure id say the top end totally got around the nerfs

Everest_Lionheart

Vaoh wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

This is just my opinion, I am not an expert.

It seems to me the high end dps have already figured out how to compensate for these changes. The high end dps players will continue with little if any changes.

The casual or lower end dps will be hit much harder. They depend upon the unslotable passives much more then the high end players. Their dps will be hit with no clear way for them to compensate for it.

So I think the gap between high and low end players dps will just become wider with u30.

Thats pretty much how it always goes. Zos tries to nerf top end, zos does something that nerfs everyone, top end has the easiest time to get around the nerfs, rest does not, top end nerfed the least. Rinse and repeat since about morrowind if I had to guess.

Yup! In Homestead sustain was a non-issue... then Morrowind launched and they butchered sustain so bad we could barely finish 2-3 rotations. Everyone suffered but high end groups just changed up rotations/gear/group comps etc and continued to complete content.... aka damage dealers swapped to Mag NB for sustain.

A huge amount of endgame players quit though so I'm not too sure id say the top end totally got around the nerfs

This is why I play all the classes. If something gets nerfed into the ground I have other toons on standby. But what’s happened in this new CP system and into the next patch is less of a nerf and more like a neutering. None of the classes are really that far ahead anymore. It feels more like a homogenization than anything.

The classes all pretty much play the same except the visual effects change a bit. The skills, buffs, timers and durations are all so similar that you can literally play pretty much the same rotation through several classes with a slight variation of input depending on which class you happen to be playing.

Dynamic rotations and those able to pull them off have a much higher cap than static rotations. That is the skill gap. People running static rotations will always leave a substantial chunk of DPS off the table and with the next set of changes expect them to fall even further behind.

All of my toons currently parse from 75-85K with little variation from one toon to the next. L Under the old CP I had a much wider range from 75-95. Literally all they have done was clip off a little damage at the top and forced me into a more dynamic rotation to recover some of it. The next round of changes will force me a bit lower and back to where I was a couple hundred CP prior.

It’s as well said earlier in this thread. CP2.0 is merely the illusion of choice. All your toons are hitting the same, all the slotted CP are within a couple % no matter which you choose. It’s all situational now. Designed to grind to offer flexibility. Time in exchange for gold or vice versa. The more your grind the less you pay to reconfigure.

Lab3360

Raegwyr wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

Raegwyr wrote: »

ErMurazor wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

From the pts patch notes it seems like damage and mitigation are being nerfed only a bit, if at all. So it is not all doom and gloom. We are probably going to be a lot stronger, thanks to our new p2w mythic.
From previous patch:

This PTS cycle:

I despise mythic items, and that piece will only make people feel artificially strong while dummy parsing. In actual content I feel like it will have very limited usefulness.

Na, this will be on every dps in trials in it’s current form. Gain a stack every second from direct damage? So you will basically be fully stacked after 10 seconds. You only lose 1 stack when you take direct damage. How many direct damage hits does one take in a trial? If youre dps, not many and still survive. And even if you do, you lose only 1 stack, which you will immediately gain back with every light attack. This is op. 1190 crit chance and 20% crit damage at full stacks? Ya, op.
In fact, you can probably drop the 10% crit damage node and add one of the new ones like master at arms-probably would do that anyway without the legs, but now you basically keep the crit (double what node was giving) and add master at arms. I’d be surprised if this isn’t nerfed. Hope not tho

Ppl posting 110k+ parses with the new mythic and master at arms on pts. Not sure Power went down.....and ZoS will sell alot of Blackwood chapters

Only because of new mythic. ZOS will nerf it 3 months later like they did with thrassians and we will stay with no mythic and even weaker chars.
At this point I'm really looking forward for another game as I'm done with zos spitting at vet players. I understand catering to new ppl but at this point zos treatment towards vets is ridiculous.

Im on ps5 NA. Are there any other mmos you can recommend for pc. Im definitely switching to pc? Im tired of limitations of console and being treated like crap by Zos.

I have really had it with this developer.
Manages to really tick me off good and proper this time around.

TBH the future of mmo genre looks quite bright right now Crimson Desert, New World, Ashes of Creation, Elyon, Mortal Online 2, Blue Protocol, maybe finally Lost Ark (really hope so).
ESO gets a lot of players because it is "currently best mmo on the market" at least thats how many players are describing it and because of that we can see that zos allow themselves to be lazy and unimaginative (same stale year long story formula for X years without any increase in content quality).
I really hope that the market will be more competitive in near future as it will benefit mostly the players.
ZOS needs a true competition so they can go back to work instead of telling us for years that lower amount of content is because of performance fixes that didn't even fix performance to begin with

Yeah...Im ready forna change. Tired of constant

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

This is just my opinion, I am not an expert.

It seems to me the high end dps have already figured out how to compensate for these changes. The high end dps players will continue with little if any changes.

The casual or lower end dps will be hit much harder. They depend upon the unslotable passives much more then the high end players. Their dps will be hit with no clear way for them to compensate for it.

So I think the gap between high and low end players dps will just become wider with u30.

Thats pretty much how it always goes. Zos tries to nerf top end, zos does something that nerfs everyone, top end has the easiest time to get around the nerfs, rest does not, top end nerfed the least. Rinse and repeat since about morrowind if I had to guess.

Yup! In Homestead sustain was a non-issue... then Morrowind launched and they butchered sustain so bad we could barely finish 2-3 rotations. Everyone suffered but high end groups just changed up rotations/gear/group comps etc and continued to complete content.... aka damage dealers swapped to Mag NB for sustain.

A huge amount of endgame players quit though so I'm not too sure id say the top end totally got around the nerfs

This is why I play all the classes. If something gets nerfed into the ground I have other toons on standby. But what’s happened in this new CP system and into the next patch is less of a nerf and more like a neutering. None of the classes are really that far ahead anymore. It feels more like a homogenization than anything.

The classes all pretty much play the same except the visual effects change a bit. The skills, buffs, timers and durations are all so similar that you can literally play pretty much the same rotation through several classes with a slight variation of input depending on which class you happen to be playing.

Dynamic rotations and those able to pull them off have a much higher cap than static rotations. That is the skill gap. People running static rotations will always leave a substantial chunk of DPS off the table and with the next set of changes expect them to fall even further behind.

All of my toons currently parse from 75-85K with little variation from one toon to the next. L Under the old CP I had a much wider range from 75-95. Literally all they have done was clip off a little damage at the top and forced me into a more dynamic rotation to recover some of it. The next round of changes will force me a bit lower and back to where I was a couple hundred CP prior.

It’s as well said earlier in this thread. CP2.0 is merely the illusion of choice. All your toons are hitting the same, all the slotted CP are within a couple % no matter which you choose. It’s all situational now. Designed to grind to offer flexibility. Time in exchange for gold or vice versa. The more your grind the less you pay to reconfigure.

Yep...I have noticed the same thing and imo that makes the game pointless. If all the classes are homogenized...then its a matter of food coloring but eating the same food. Soooooo Vanilla

Lab3360

Vaoh wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

This is just my opinion, I am not an expert.

It seems to me the high end dps have already figured out how to compensate for these changes. The high end dps players will continue with little if any changes.

The casual or lower end dps will be hit much harder. They depend upon the unslotable passives much more then the high end players. Their dps will be hit with no clear way for them to compensate for it.

So I think the gap between high and low end players dps will just become wider with u30.

Thats pretty much how it always goes. Zos tries to nerf top end, zos does something that nerfs everyone, top end has the easiest time to get around the nerfs, rest does not, top end nerfed the least. Rinse and repeat since about morrowind if I had to guess.

Yup! In Homestead sustain was a non-issue... then Morrowind launched and they butchered sustain so bad we could barely finish 2-3 rotations. Everyone suffered but high end groups just changed up rotations/gear/group comps etc and continued to complete content.... aka damage dealers swapped to Mag NB for sustain.

A huge amount of endgame players quit though so I'm not too sure id say the top end totally got around the nerfs

Zos going to get nerfed if they remove earned cp from vet playerbase

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

ErMurazor wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

From the pts patch notes it seems like damage and mitigation are being nerfed only a bit, if at all. So it is not all doom and gloom. We are probably going to be a lot stronger, thanks to our new p2w mythic.
From previous patch:

This PTS cycle:

I despise mythic items, and that piece will only make people feel artificially strong while dummy parsing. In actual content I feel like it will have very limited usefulness.

Na, this will be on every dps in trials in it’s current form. Gain a stack every second from direct damage? So you will basically be fully stacked after 10 seconds. You only lose 1 stack when you take direct damage. How many direct damage hits does one take in a trial? If youre dps, not many and still survive. And even if you do, you lose only 1 stack, which you will immediately gain back with every light attack. This is op. 1190 crit chance and 20% crit damage at full stacks? Ya, op.
In fact, you can probably drop the 10% crit damage node and add one of the new ones like master at arms-probably would do that anyway without the legs, but now you basically keep the crit (double what node was giving) and add master at arms. I’d be surprised if this isn’t nerfed. Hope not tho

Ppl posting 110k+ parses with the new mythic and master at arms on pts. Not sure Power went down.....and ZoS will sell alot of Blackwood chapters

We're supposed to be okay with being nerfed because as long as we buy the new mythic item we'll be alright! Right guys??? Imagine nerfing players AGAIN and having the absolute nerve to sell them something in the same update that will artificially alleviate their problems.