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"We're Taking Some of the Power Out of the High End Experience"
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Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »Great and welcoming changes. Good job ZOS! The power disparity has been a huge turn off for new players for over 7 years now. It's finally time to close that power disparity gap, especially when newer player will be playing this game with the next gen graphic update.
Come back to me on that after you've been here a few years.
Oh, I have been playing since PS4 beta. Had 8 v16's, [snip]
Then let's agree to disagree, shall we. No point in being petty with one another directly.Edited by ZOS_Lunar on April 21, 2021 1:37PMAngua Anyammis Ae Sunna7 -
Anonx31st✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »Great and welcoming changes. Good job ZOS! The power disparity has been a huge turn off for new players for over 7 years now. It's finally time to close that power disparity gap, especially when newer player will be playing this game with the next gen graphic update.
Come back to me on that after you've been here a few years.
Oh, I have been playing since PS4 beta. Had 8 v16's, [snip]
Then let's agree to disagree, shall we. No point in being petty with one another directly.
Sure! So how come you feel that you need to have a big power disparity gap from newer players?Edited by ZOS_Lunar on April 21, 2021 1:38PM1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Great and welcoming changes. Good job ZOS! The power disparity has been a huge turn off for new players for over 7 years now. It's finally time to close that power disparity gap, especially when newer player will be playing this game with the next gen graphic update.
My sarcasm meter is out of adjustment at the moment and I honestly can't tell if this is or isn't. In the event that it is not, I don't see how this change is going to close that gap. The nerfs were across the board (floor and ceiling), the buff (light attack damage is a ceiling buff) will effect those who weave well the most, essentially widening the gap again.
11 -
Anonx31st✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Great and welcoming changes. Good job ZOS! The power disparity has been a huge turn off for new players for over 7 years now. It's finally time to close that power disparity gap, especially when newer player will be playing this game with the next gen graphic update.
My sarcasm meter is out of adjustment at the moment and I honestly can't tell if this is or isn't. In the event that it is not, I don't see how this change is going to close that gap. The nerfs were across the board (floor and ceiling), the buff (light attack damage is a ceiling buff) will effect those who weave well the most, essentially widening the gap again.
Decreasing the power gap helps both making content more challenging and gives new/er players a better chance at participating in end game content. Are you stating that this content is already too challenging?0 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Great and welcoming changes. Good job ZOS! The power disparity has been a huge turn off for new players for over 7 years now. It's finally time to close that power disparity gap, especially when newer player will be playing this game with the next gen graphic update.
My sarcasm meter is out of adjustment at the moment and I honestly can't tell if this is or isn't. In the event that it is not, I don't see how this change is going to close that gap. The nerfs were across the board (floor and ceiling), the buff (light attack damage is a ceiling buff) will effect those who weave well the most, essentially widening the gap again.
Decreasing the power gap helps both making content more challenging and gives new/er players a better chance at participating in end game content. Are you stating that this content is already too challenging?
I believe the comment was stating that this change does nothing to actually decrease the gap. You're stating that nerfing CP decreases the gap. Others are saying that the gap still exists and may even be larger with these changes. The argument then is whether or not these changes actually increase or decrease the gap and if the negative perception of the nerfs are even worth the gains (if there are any).11 -
jle30303✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thing is, saying they're decreasing the power gap actually isn'#t what's happening. Nerfs ALWAYS hit EVERYBODY, and the people most affected are always the lower powered people.
Stop. Nerfing. Stuff!24 -
Anonx31st✭✭✭People complain that dungeons are too easy, and tanks and healers are not needed for the majority of the content (non-existent for normals) and how many ppl can solo the end game content. By reducing player power, it as in effect, makes said content more challenging. Making end game content more challenging is a change that I am happy to agree with ZOS and most players on.0
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People complain that dungeons are too easy, and tanks and healers are not needed for the majority of the content (non-existent for normals) and how many ppl can solo the end game content. By reducing player power, it as in effect, makes said content more challenging. Making end game content more challenging is a change that I am happy to agree with ZOS and most players on.
Except that all those things have been said for updates past, and ZOS has tried to reduce player power over and over again...and nothing changes.
Players still say dungeons are too easy and tanks and healers aren't needed.
I mean, how nerfed do you expect us to be to the point where the average group needs a healer in a normal dungeon? Because ZOS hasn't gotten us there yet. Fake tanks abound, and this CP nerf won't change a thing.
There are Vet dungeons where it's still advantageous to run 1 tank + 3DDs. ZOS hasn't reduced player power to stop that either. (Actually, it's the opposite. Reduced player power often makes it more advantageous to ditch the healer.)
So I don't this is going to have the effect you hope it will.17 -
Anonx31st✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »People complain that dungeons are too easy, and tanks and healers are not needed for the majority of the content (non-existent for normals) and how many ppl can solo the end game content. By reducing player power, it as in effect, makes said content more challenging. Making end game content more challenging is a change that I am happy to agree with ZOS and most players on.
Except that all those things have been said for updates past, and ZOS has tried to reduce player power over and over again...and nothing changes.
Players still say dungeons are too easy and tanks and healers aren't needed.
I mean, how nerfed do you expect us to be to the point where the average group needs a healer in a normal dungeon? Because ZOS hasn't gotten us there yet. Fake tanks abound, and this CP nerf won't change a thing.
There are Vet dungeons where it's still advantageous to run 1 tank + 3DDs. ZOS hasn't reduced player power to stop that either. (Actually, it's the opposite. Reduced player power often makes it more advantageous to ditch the healer.)
So I don't this is going to have the effect you hope it will.
It's a catch 22. If ZOS nerfs class skills, players complain, if ZOS nerfs player CP players complain. Poor ZOS..
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Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agenericname wrote: »Great and welcoming changes. Good job ZOS! The power disparity has been a huge turn off for new players for over 7 years now. It's finally time to close that power disparity gap, especially when newer player will be playing this game with the next gen graphic update.
My sarcasm meter is out of adjustment at the moment and I honestly can't tell if this is or isn't. In the event that it is not, I don't see how this change is going to close that gap. The nerfs were across the board (floor and ceiling), the buff (light attack damage is a ceiling buff) will effect those who weave well the most, essentially widening the gap again.
I agree. They DIDN'T lower the ceiling.
They lowered the floor. The ceiling just coincidentally went a little lower with it. I was already struggling to complete high end content before. Now this will completely lock everyone out of Vet content except those 1% of players who have got pristine perfect rotations.
This should be a fun video game, not a "practice with a metronome until you have it down with computer-like accuracy. Oh what's that? You have a medical condition and your hands can't possible move as fast as others? Well that's too bad, I guess you will NEVER get to complete vet content! You're just too worthless!"
If it sounds like I'm bitter, it's because I'm bitter. Those passives REALLY needed to be there to even the odds just a little bit.
Now there will be even LESS people able to run vet content, mark my words.36 -
Anonx31st✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »People complain that dungeons are too easy, and tanks and healers are not needed for the majority of the content (non-existent for normals) and how many ppl can solo the end game content. By reducing player power, it as in effect, makes said content more challenging. Making end game content more challenging is a change that I am happy to agree with ZOS and most players on.
Except that all those things have been said for updates past, and ZOS has tried to reduce player power over and over again...and nothing changes.
Players still say dungeons are too easy and tanks and healers aren't needed.
I mean, how nerfed do you expect us to be to the point where the average group needs a healer in a normal dungeon? Because ZOS hasn't gotten us there yet. Fake tanks abound, and this CP nerf won't change a thing.
There are Vet dungeons where it's still advantageous to run 1 tank + 3DDs. ZOS hasn't reduced player power to stop that either. (Actually, it's the opposite. Reduced player power often makes it more advantageous to ditch the healer.)
So I don't this is going to have the effect you hope it will.
However I think the new nerfs to heals from tanks, is a giant step in the right direction for healers!0 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Great and welcoming changes. Good job ZOS! The power disparity has been a huge turn off for new players for over 7 years now. It's finally time to close that power disparity gap, especially when newer player will be playing this game with the next gen graphic update.
My sarcasm meter is out of adjustment at the moment and I honestly can't tell if this is or isn't. In the event that it is not, I don't see how this change is going to close that gap. The nerfs were across the board (floor and ceiling), the buff (light attack damage is a ceiling buff) will effect those who weave well the most, essentially widening the gap again.
I agree. They DIDN'T lower the ceiling.
They lowered the floor. The ceiling just coincidentally went a little lower with it. I was already struggling to complete high end content before. Now this will completely lock everyone out of Vet content except those 1% of players who have got pristine perfect rotations.
This should be a fun video game, not a "practice with a metronome until you have it down with computer-like accuracy. Oh what's that? You have a medical condition and your hands can't possible move as fast as others? Well that's too bad, I guess you will NEVER get to complete vet content! You're just too worthless!"
If it sounds like I'm bitter, it's because I'm bitter. Those passives REALLY needed to be there to even the odds just a little bit.
Now there will be even LESS people able to run vet content, mark my words.
You hit the nail on the head for a lot of players who don’t even have a medical condition who just don’t think that kind of play is fun, even if they could do it.
All these free trials being in more new players but those are exactly the type of players you get, casuals.
Nothing you do to cp or skills or gear is going to help them. They spam light and heavy attacks all day long. They know nothing about racial passives and stuff like that.
Also, those players won’t stay for the long run.
So, why don’t you make those that do stay happy instead? Players want to get more powerful as they gain experience, what is wrong with that?
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA20 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »Great and welcoming changes. Good job ZOS! The power disparity has been a huge turn off for new players for over 7 years now. It's finally time to close that power disparity gap, especially when newer player will be playing this game with the next gen graphic update.
My sarcasm meter is out of adjustment at the moment and I honestly can't tell if this is or isn't. In the event that it is not, I don't see how this change is going to close that gap. The nerfs were across the board (floor and ceiling), the buff (light attack damage is a ceiling buff) will effect those who weave well the most, essentially widening the gap again.
I agree. They DIDN'T lower the ceiling.
They lowered the floor. The ceiling just coincidentally went a little lower with it. I was already struggling to complete high end content before. Now this will completely lock everyone out of Vet content except those 1% of players who have got pristine perfect rotations.
This should be a fun video game, not a "practice with a metronome until you have it down with computer-like accuracy. Oh what's that? You have a medical condition and your hands can't possible move as fast as others? Well that's too bad, I guess you will NEVER get to complete vet content! You're just too worthless!"
If it sounds like I'm bitter, it's because I'm bitter. Those passives REALLY needed to be there to even the odds just a little bit.
Now there will be even LESS people able to run vet content, mark my words.
You hit the nail on the head for a lot of players who don’t even have a medical condition who just don’t think that kind of play is fun, even if they could do it.
All these free trials being in more new players but those are exactly the type of players you get, casuals.
Nothing you do to cp or skills or gear is going to help them. They spam light and heavy attacks all day long. They know nothing about racial passives and stuff like that.
Also, those players won’t stay for the long run.
So, why don’t you make those that do stay happy instead? Players want to get more powerful as they gain experience, what is wrong with that?
That is my main issue with these consistant nerfs every patch.
I know I get better since I complete content I couldn't before
I know I increase in level: first to cp 810 and now I'm cp1200+
And yet every patch my characters grow weaker, and it takes more to adapt. Less options, more rigid sets/traits/rotations to even stay close to where I was.
It just... Isn't fun for me.
There should be a reward for sticking with the game...
You should feel more powerful.
But from lvl 1-50 your character actually grow weaker
and from Championpoint level they nerfed the power by quite a bit
It's somewhat demotivating..Edited by Grandchamp1989 on April 21, 2021 6:16AM28 -
Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »Great and welcoming changes. Good job ZOS! The power disparity has been a huge turn off for new players for over 7 years now. It's finally time to close that power disparity gap, especially when newer player will be playing this game with the next gen graphic update.
My sarcasm meter is out of adjustment at the moment and I honestly can't tell if this is or isn't. In the event that it is not, I don't see how this change is going to close that gap. The nerfs were across the board (floor and ceiling), the buff (light attack damage is a ceiling buff) will effect those who weave well the most, essentially widening the gap again.
I agree. They DIDN'T lower the ceiling.
They lowered the floor. The ceiling just coincidentally went a little lower with it. I was already struggling to complete high end content before. Now this will completely lock everyone out of Vet content except those 1% of players who have got pristine perfect rotations.
This should be a fun video game, not a "practice with a metronome until you have it down with computer-like accuracy. Oh what's that? You have a medical condition and your hands can't possible move as fast as others? Well that's too bad, I guess you will NEVER get to complete vet content! You're just too worthless!"
If it sounds like I'm bitter, it's because I'm bitter. Those passives REALLY needed to be there to even the odds just a little bit.
Now there will be even LESS people able to run vet content, mark my words.
You hit the nail on the head for a lot of players who don’t even have a medical condition who just don’t think that kind of play is fun, even if they could do it.
All these free trials being in more new players but those are exactly the type of players you get, casuals.
Nothing you do to cp or skills or gear is going to help them. They spam light and heavy attacks all day long. They know nothing about racial passives and stuff like that.
Also, those players won’t stay for the long run.
So, why don’t you make those that do stay happy instead? Players want to get more powerful as they gain experience, what is wrong with that?
That is my main issue with these consistant nerfs every patch.
I know I get better since I complete content I couldn't before
I know I increase in level: first to cp 810 and now I'm cp1200+
And yet every patch my characters grow weaker, and it takes more to adapt. Less options, more rigid sets/traits/rotations to even stay close to where I was.
It just... Isn't fun for me.
There should be a reward for sticking with the game...
You should feel more powerful.
But from lvl 1-50 your character actually grow weaker
and from Championpoint level they nerfed the power by quite a bit
It's somewhat demotivating..
Yeah we should be looking forward to new content, not dreading the day the update lands. No player wants to feel WEAKER in spite of all their practice and hard work.
And you made a VERY good point about the rigid sets/traits/rotations. Like, speaking of sets, is there even any point to having so many sets in the game if only a select few are viable?
Like really for example a DPS PvE magicka player: Mother's Sorrow and Medusa, Mother's Sorrow and Medusa, Mother's Sorrow and Medusa, etc. Is there a reason there are other magicka DPS sets in the game besides these? What are they for? Decoration? Roleplaying?
There are about maybe 20 sets for different roles (healer, tank, dps) and situations (trials, pvp, pve) that are considered viable (meta) for the content....Honestly, if the game is only gonna let you complete all the content in the game with only certain sets, then we might as well save the server space and just...delete all the others. Permanently. Because they've become pointless, haven't they? So worthless, no one would dream of ever running them for most of the content.
Heck, maybe getting rid of all the "junk" sets might even fix the Cyrodiil lag. (sarcasm)
Do I want to get rid of all the sets except the meta? No, I don't.
But the fact remains....that this is a game that PROMISES freedom of choice, and yet only ever delivers the illusion of freedom in reality.
If that were not the case, then most sets WOULD be viable for different content.
20 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »People complain that dungeons are too easy, and tanks and healers are not needed for the majority of the content (non-existent for normals) and how many ppl can solo the end game content. By reducing player power, it as in effect, makes said content more challenging. Making end game content more challenging is a change that I am happy to agree with ZOS and most players on.
Except that all those things have been said for updates past, and ZOS has tried to reduce player power over and over again...and nothing changes.
Players still say dungeons are too easy and tanks and healers aren't needed.
I mean, how nerfed do you expect us to be to the point where the average group needs a healer in a normal dungeon? Because ZOS hasn't gotten us there yet. Fake tanks abound, and this CP nerf won't change a thing.
There are Vet dungeons where it's still advantageous to run 1 tank + 3DDs. ZOS hasn't reduced player power to stop that either. (Actually, it's the opposite. Reduced player power often makes it more advantageous to ditch the healer.)
So I don't this is going to have the effect you hope it will.
It's a catch 22. If ZOS nerfs class skills, players complain, if ZOS nerfs player CP players complain. Poor ZOS..
That's not a catch 22. Because that all follows under don't nerf everyone to decrease the gap.
There are two ways they can lower the gap. Either nerf content so that more people can get completes, or nerf weaving/animation canceling. Those are the only two things that can actually lower the gap. Nerfing everything else just nerfs everyone, which means that the gap remains but everyone has less fun. High end players actually become at risk of being unable to do things they have the talent to do. So they have to become stricter in reqs, resulting in less players having access.
Personally I think they should nerf content and then put valuable stuff to farm in that content. I don't think it should be ridiculously lower so that it's fungal grotto or whatever, but things like nerfing the dps checks so that people who are actually following the mechanics perfectly but are a bit slow can complete it. That's literally just punishing people for the dps gap, and nothing else. The good groups don't have to see those mechanics at all.
If people could at least get completes, I don't think they'd care that higher end players get additional rewards for achievements or for leaderboards.Edited by spartaxoxo on April 21, 2021 7:42AM12 -
Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »People complain that dungeons are too easy, and tanks and healers are not needed for the majority of the content (non-existent for normals) and how many ppl can solo the end game content. By reducing player power, it as in effect, makes said content more challenging. Making end game content more challenging is a change that I am happy to agree with ZOS and most players on.
Except that all those things have been said for updates past, and ZOS has tried to reduce player power over and over again...and nothing changes.
Players still say dungeons are too easy and tanks and healers aren't needed.
I mean, how nerfed do you expect us to be to the point where the average group needs a healer in a normal dungeon? Because ZOS hasn't gotten us there yet. Fake tanks abound, and this CP nerf won't change a thing.
There are Vet dungeons where it's still advantageous to run 1 tank + 3DDs. ZOS hasn't reduced player power to stop that either. (Actually, it's the opposite. Reduced player power often makes it more advantageous to ditch the healer.)
So I don't this is going to have the effect you hope it will.
It's a catch 22. If ZOS nerfs class skills, players complain, if ZOS nerfs player CP players complain. Poor ZOS..
That's not a catch 22. Because that all follows under don't nerf everyone to decrease the gap.
There are two ways they can lower the gap. Either nerf content so that more people can get completes, or nerf weaving/animation canceling. Those are the only two things that can actually lower the gap. Nerfing everything else just nerfs everyone, which means that the gap remains but everyone has less fun.
There's a third way of lowering the gap: they could also go to all the elite players' houses and smash their metronomes they're using to time their light weaves lolol
(joking, of course)
In all seriousness, I think I would prefer your first option. At no point has ESO ever presented itself as a Dark Souls 2.0, so there really is no reason there should be cripplingly hard content in the first place. I can't even say most people actually enjoy that sort of thing in this community either (oh I'm sure you'll find SOMEONE who is all over super hard content, but those sorts of people often make their own challenges, like trying to complete 4 person dungeons solo and stuff. They're creative enough to make their own hardmodes).Edited by Wolf_Eye on April 21, 2021 7:37AM7 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The passives stars are far less powerful than the slotted stars so I dont think the dps loss will be that bad. The 50% reduction of the penetration and crit chance passive stars probably have the biggest impact.
In terms of positive chances to CP2.0 there are new slottable stars for direct dmg so depending on the build that might recover some of the losses from the passive stars.
I also think that the new trail sets and mythics will compensate for the CP nerf, at CP1170 I dont expect to be losing any dps tbh.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »How long did it take someone on console to get godslayer, I believe was the one that people suspected wasn't even possible at first? I can't remember which one because I'm not running that kind of content but I know there was one people were banging their heads against the wall on for months until an xbox group barely managed it.
I looked into this a while back and the first console Godslayer was on Xbox-NA in Feb 2020, the first on PS4 was on NA in November 2020. Elsweyr released on console on 04 June 2019, if anyone wants to know how long that means it took for console to get there.
Got to correct you there, the first Godslayer on PS4 was in May 2020 on the EU Server, if I recall it correctly.
The performance played a big roll in it additionally, as Console got a lot of Bluescreens etc. after the Elsweyr Patch released. I don't remember if that happened straight away with Elsweyr or the Patches after though.
So there was no point for Console to even try GS at that time.
Oh that's good to know, thanks for the updated timeline! I couldn't actually find anything for either console's EU server when I investigated it (but tbh I was just looking quickly in order to win an argument lol).
So, that's
Xbox-NA - Feb 2020
PS4-EU - May 2020
PS4-NA - Nov 2020
(XBOX-EU unknown)
For an expansion that came out in the middle of 2019.
Performance-wise, IIRC 2019's performance was a lot like this year - the big main release was relatively fine so to speak, but Dragonhold was a hot, hot mess, perhaps the hottest of hot messes... until Markath was released.3 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Multiple people have suggested this, even back when ZoS was thinking of inverting the functionality of light and heavy attacks:
Add more damage to active skills by taking some of that damage from light attacks. People who weave will still outperform those who don't but the gap will decrease. That's it. That's all they need to do.
CP doesn't need to be adjusted, again. Skills don't need to be nerfed, again. Sets don't need to be nerfed, again. It's. Not. Working. As someone who does weave and has completed a majority of the tough content, I'm tired of being nerfed just to have to work my butt off to perform the same as I could before when there is an easily accessible solution right there.PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS25 -
Abelon✭✭✭✭Multiple people have suggested this, even back when ZoS was thinking of inverting the functionality of light and heavy attacks:
Add more damage to active skills by taking some of that damage from light attacks. People who weave will still outperform those who don't but the gap will decrease. That's it. That's all they need to do.
CP doesn't need to be adjusted, again. Skills don't need to be nerfed, again. Sets don't need to be nerfed, again. It's. Not. Working. As someone who does weave and has completed a majority of the tough content, I'm tired of being nerfed just to have to work my butt off to perform the same as I could before when there is an easily accessible solution right there.
People have been saying this for years. I honestly can't imagine what needs to happen for ZOS to finally understand this. Light attack dps is the issue. Players have been suggesting tons of ways to shift that dps elsewhere. I personally couldn't care less how exactly that dps would be decreased and where it would need to go. Put it into heavy attacks, put it into skills, into gear bonuses, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew... Whatever tickles your fancy.
But deal with LA damage already, please...12 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭With the way they go about "taking out the power from the top end," it really only hurts the middle tier players. The upper echelon of players have 12 regulars for trials, and thus, they're able to maximize group buffs/debuffs, so they don't feel the nerfs nearly as bad as the rest of the community. In comparison, I have a hard time getting 7-8 core players from 2 separate guilds to show up regularly for trials, meaning, we simply role with the punches rather than try to create an optimum group in terms of buffs/debuffs.
If they truly want to take the power out of the top end without hurting the middle, they're going to have to address issues such as short-lived buffs, light attack weaving, block/bash cancelling, and animation cancelling. Why? Because at a certain point, holding racials, gear, stats, etc. equal, the only way to advance your DPS scores beyond a certain point is to have a picture perfect rotation to maximize uptimes on short lived buffs, maximize the number of actions/attacks per minute through cancelling, etc.
Even if they won't address it from a weaving/animation cancelling standpoint, making buffs/debuffs have much longer durations would help the middle and would not advance the top-end players, since they've already practiced their rotation to the degree that they're getting maximized uptimes on buffs/debuffs, so increasing buff/debuff durations would not advance them any further and would only help out the mid-tier players who are trying to get better.16 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭Multiple people have suggested this, even back when ZoS was thinking of inverting the functionality of light and heavy attacks:
Add more damage to active skills by taking some of that damage from light attacks. People who weave will still outperform those who don't but the gap will decrease. That's it. That's all they need to do.
CP doesn't need to be adjusted, again. Skills don't need to be nerfed, again. Sets don't need to be nerfed, again. It's. Not. Working. As someone who does weave and has completed a majority of the tough content, I'm tired of being nerfed just to have to work my butt off to perform the same as I could before when there is an easily accessible solution right there.
that will hurt the floor the most.. the floor being the la attackers that throw in a self buff unless they zone out...
and how much is la attack on a 100k rotation anyway? 20%? Not enough to make that much of a difference.. unless you wanna nerf 75-100% of la damage...
so buff la instead and nerf skill/dot/proc damage?
well... then you hurt the other dps floor. those who keyboard button mash random skills....without la weaving...
la weaving being slowed down would help. with a queue like ha in middle. would help with crap pings too...
but combat responsiveness feel would suffer..
so how to go about it then?
Lift the floors, both mouse button mashers la attackers as well as keyboard button mashers skills only attackers. without lifting the ceiling.
both: craftable 3 or 5 piece set that either gives major self buffs directly or extends them all to 1 minute. the floor cant keep up a rotation that keeps good uptime on those with 20 sec durations.
la attackers:
monster set/3 piece, mythic item that doubles, triples,.. quintuples la damage. whatever is nedded to get them to dps floor target. downside: all your damage skills cost 3 times as much. and have their damage halfed, thirded, quartered...
skill only attackers
monster, 3 piece, mythic that ups skills damage by however much nneeded to reach dps floor target. downside: ,substantial gcd for skills to make it never be used by the pro rotationists.
basically a few pieces, or even mundus stone
, blessing of xyz deities you can grab at fighters/mage/psijic houses for all I care. that boosts those who play the "worst" by boosting whatever they do by ALOT and put in downsides so severe no good la weaver would ever touch them...Edited by remosito on April 21, 2021 3:29PMShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)0 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭trackdemon5512 wrote: »Was fun being at 47k while it lasted.
10-15% from the highest performing DPS which prior to FOA were hitting 115k at times. This would drop them down below 100k hopefully.
As your rotations and such weren’t optimized to hit this clearly any DPS hit you take would be significantly smaller (or depending on builds you may even get a boost). It’s all for closing the gap between them and you.
Sorry should clarify, that 47k was a solo 3 mil. My 21mil was 80k. Still bummed that I will be dragged down.PvP needs more love.2 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Multiple people have suggested this, even back when ZoS was thinking of inverting the functionality of light and heavy attacks:
Add more damage to active skills by taking some of that damage from light attacks. People who weave will still outperform those who don't but the gap will decrease. That's it. That's all they need to do.
CP doesn't need to be adjusted, again. Skills don't need to be nerfed, again. Sets don't need to be nerfed, again. It's. Not. Working. As someone who does weave and has completed a majority of the tough content, I'm tired of being nerfed just to have to work my butt off to perform the same as I could before when there is an easily accessible solution right there.
I would love if they would put less importance on light attacks and more power into the actual skills themselves, but knowing zos they will just nerf light attacks and not add any compensation for it.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna9 -
Pink_Pixie✭✭✭It took two years to come up with CP nerfalot 2.0 which makes me wonder what they were actually doing in that time. But, it seems they are following the trend of other MMo's to name two I can think of off hand are, SWTOR and Star Trek online. All the skill tree's on both those games were overly simplified and forced pigeon holed builds, that have zero diversification and lack of choice. Both these games I have played and quickly got bored of them due to the lack of choice and not being able to diversify.
I came to ESO as it was coined as "Play as you want" which it was sort of, however it has got far worse now. We're stuck with the same red and blue slots for our specific build, which is four choices. Now most are going to take the same choices, and gear doesn't even matter as most are wearing the same gear. "Play as you want" has now become "Copy and paste a build" and with the current nerfs there is even less choice. Why is the maximum CP 3600 if we can really only use 1000?
Why on earth was that number even introduced and vaguely attempt to say it's progression, when it isn't. It's all really a load of rubbish to get half truths about what we were getting, to only get something new that was a nerf, then get hit by another nerf after two experience events.
"We're Taking Some of the Power Out of the High End Experience" is simply saying "We're taking the fun out of the game, and removing players" this kind of statement only proves they don't listen to feedback. The green tree is still a mess and a micromanagement hell, the blue tree lacks any real choice, the red tree is mostly pointless and in the end CP is pretty much a connect a dot system that adds no real difference to another players build of the same CP level.
This next nerf will only make it even worse, due to having less reason to play, less reason to keep a subscription going and less reason to play new content. As the CP I will earn is pointless, they don't add to anything, as suddenly I'm going to be (Sub) ZOS optimal. Halving the passives is another bad choice, in a long line of bad choices. I feel that this game will be on life support quicker than they expect, just like the two games I mentioned above due to very bad choices.
[snip]
[Edited to remove bashing comments]Edited by ZOS_Ragnar on April 22, 2021 2:15PM25 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pink_Pixie wrote: »It took two years to come up with CP nerfalot 2.0 which makes me wonder what they were actually doing in that time. But, it seems they are following the trend of other MMo's to name two I can think of off hand are, SWTOR and Star Trek online. All the skill tree's on both those games were overly simplified and forced pigeon holed builds, that have zero diversification and lack of choice. Both these games I have played and quickly got bored of them due to the lack of choice and not being able to diversify.
I came to ESO as it was coined as "Play as you want" which it was sort of, however it has got far worse now. We're stuck with the same red and blue slots for our specific build, which is four choices. Now most are going to take the same choices, and gear doesn't even matter as most are wearing the same gear. "Play as you want" has now become "Copy and paste a build" and with the current nerfs there is even less choice. Why is the maximum CP 3600 if we can really only use 1000?
Why on earth was that number even introduced and vaguely attempt to say it's progression, when it isn't. It's all really a load of rubbish to get half truths about what we were getting, to only get something new that was a nerf, then get hit by another nerf after two experience events.
"We're Taking Some of the Power Out of the High End Experience" is simply saying "We're taking the fun out of the game, and removing players" this kind of statement only proves they don't listen to feedback. The green tree is still a mess and a micromanagement hell, the blue tree lacks any real choice, the red tree is mostly pointless and in the end CP is pretty much a connect a dot system that adds no real difference to another players build of the same CP level.
This next nerf will only make it even worse, due to having less reason to play, less reason to keep a subscription going and less reason to play new content. As the CP I will earn is pointless, they don't add to anything, as suddenly I'm going to be (Sub) ZOS optimal. Halving the passives is another bad choice, in a long line of bad choices. I feel that this game will be on life support quicker than they expect, just like the two games I mentioned above due to very bad choices.
Maybe one day the devs will actually play the game, rather than using a dart board to come up with new nerfs and ideas.
Well said.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna8 -
jle30303✭✭✭✭✭
✭Taking damage off light attacks... you know who that would hurt most?
Newbies.
You know, the people who have to actually start the game, and only HAVE light attacks and a couple of skills, and are constantly running out of their meagre amounts of stamina and magicka to actually use said skills, and have to be able to kill mobs somehow, including tier-1 bosses solo, because there are so many tier-1 bosses in solo content, so light attacks HAVE to be good enough to at least be a useful backup for one or two skills that haven't been powered up, and minimal tactics.
So, reducing damage of light attacks is the one thing that CANNOT be done.5 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Taking damage off light attacks... you know who that would hurt most?
Newbies.
You know, the people who have to actually start the game, and only HAVE light attacks and a couple of skills, and are constantly running out of their meagre amounts of stamina and magicka to actually use said skills, and have to be able to kill mobs somehow, including tier-1 bosses solo, because there are so many tier-1 bosses in solo content, so light attacks HAVE to be good enough to at least be a useful backup for one or two skills that haven't been powered up, and minimal tactics.
So, reducing damage of light attacks is the one thing that CANNOT be done.
Honestly, I would be fine with heavy attacks becoming useful (as in heavy attacks doing good damage and being relevant in rotations, but not required) and being taught in tutorials in those circumstances. They're much friendlier on the server, people's hands, and new players. But that's just my opinion.Edited by Suna_Ye_Sunnabe on April 22, 2021 2:48AMAngua Anyammis Ae Sunna10 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »Great and welcoming changes. Good job ZOS! The power disparity has been a huge turn off for new players for over 7 years now. It's finally time to close that power disparity gap, especially when newer player will be playing this game with the next gen graphic update.
My sarcasm meter is out of adjustment at the moment and I honestly can't tell if this is or isn't. In the event that it is not, I don't see how this change is going to close that gap. The nerfs were across the board (floor and ceiling), the buff (light attack damage is a ceiling buff) will effect those who weave well the most, essentially widening the gap again.
I agree. They DIDN'T lower the ceiling.
They lowered the floor. The ceiling just coincidentally went a little lower with it. I was already struggling to complete high end content before. Now this will completely lock everyone out of Vet content except those 1% of players who have got pristine perfect rotations.
This should be a fun video game, not a "practice with a metronome until you have it down with computer-like accuracy. Oh what's that? You have a medical condition and your hands can't possible move as fast as others? Well that's too bad, I guess you will NEVER get to complete vet content! You're just too worthless!"
If it sounds like I'm bitter, it's because I'm bitter. Those passives REALLY needed to be there to even the odds just a little bit.
Now there will be even LESS people able to run vet content, mark my words.
You hit the nail on the head for a lot of players who don’t even have a medical condition who just don’t think that kind of play is fun, even if they could do it.
All these free trials being in more new players but those are exactly the type of players you get, casuals.
Nothing you do to cp or skills or gear is going to help them. They spam light and heavy attacks all day long. They know nothing about racial passives and stuff like that.
Also, those players won’t stay for the long run.
So, why don’t you make those that do stay happy instead? Players want to get more powerful as they gain experience, what is wrong with that?
This is exactly my problem with the story content - it's like the Story is really only for new casual players, not for the people who stuck around and learned how to play the game.
They just hand victories to the lowest common denominator to make them feel good - meanwhile other longtime/endgame players would like the Story Bosses to actually be memorable & worthwhile fights that live up to stakes that the writers built up.
EDIT: Solo offers pretty much no challenge unless you're being silly w/ weapons and armor.
the problem isn't that there is no hard content in the game, it's that people who love questing are getting tired of it because it is ridiculously easy.
I feel like there's a middle ground that ZoS has missed. Sure I don't want to have vet trial level mobs all over the place, but on the other hand just one shotting anything over world as I run by is frustrating in another way. I'd like to feel like I at least need to turn my brain on for over world, even if just a little.
Edited by Iccotak on April 25, 2021 6:32AM6 -
Minyassa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Great and welcoming changes. Good job ZOS! The power disparity has been a huge turn off for new players for over 7 years now. It's finally time to close that power disparity gap, especially when newer player will be playing this game with the next gen graphic update.
My sarcasm meter is out of adjustment at the moment and I honestly can't tell if this is or isn't. In the event that it is not, I don't see how this change is going to close that gap. The nerfs were across the board (floor and ceiling), the buff (light attack damage is a ceiling buff) will effect those who weave well the most, essentially widening the gap again.
I agree. They DIDN'T lower the ceiling.
They lowered the floor. The ceiling just coincidentally went a little lower with it. I was already struggling to complete high end content before. Now this will completely lock everyone out of Vet content except those 1% of players who have got pristine perfect rotations.
This should be a fun video game, not a "practice with a metronome until you have it down with computer-like accuracy. Oh what's that? You have a medical condition and your hands can't possible move as fast as others? Well that's too bad, I guess you will NEVER get to complete vet content! You're just too worthless!"
If it sounds like I'm bitter, it's because I'm bitter. Those passives REALLY needed to be there to even the odds just a little bit.
Now there will be even LESS people able to run vet content, mark my words.
Glad to see someone else address the point that there are some players that do like MMORPGs and do have medical conditions that make them lean away from the more obviously platformy games. None of the other MMOs I've played forced me to make a choice between playing end content and not destroying my hands just to manage combat. My toon is the one that's supposed to have all the physical skills, all I'm supposed to need to do is make choices and have reasonable hand-eye coordination. I shouldn't have to program myself with hours of repetitive motion and make matters even worse.
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