12 person group limit? Whaaaaaat?

npuk

This was a bad move for PVP & a is bad move for PVE.

Theryl

Just going to concur with everyone else that this is a bad idea that will negatively impact guild social events for the reasons already stated.

Coorbin

This is a terrible idea and seriously impacts roleplayers (who are paying customers), ZOS! This has to be reverted. Please do not make this part of the live game.

Sandman929

I pretty much only play Cyrodiil, but my question is:

If ungrouped healing exists, why are group size caps still here?

I'm not advocating the zerg, but the zerg exists, grouped or not. They can still all heal each other, so why is the cap on groups 12 anywhere?

Aluna

Wow. As the leader of a weekly WB run and a zone run for a big guild alliance I'm super angry.
This does not make any sense whatsoever. When you did that to Cyrodiil you literally said yourself that it doesnt result in a better performance (which, from a technical perspective, also wouldn't make much sense), or to quote Gina:

While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players

Trying to penalize zergs in a PvP zone is one thing but what in Oblivion does that have to do with PvE where people only use it and need it for zone runs, RP groups and other big guild events?? If you try to enrage your playerbase, you already do that well enough with your non-performing servers, endless maintenances and trillions of bugs, even without such nonsense changes!

ajkb78

BlueRaven wrote: »

This is an awful change. We have very active guild WB runs that are almost always full.

This is a bad change.

Edit: Oh! I almost forgot about my housing guilds house tours! This will be a problem for them as well!

This does seem like a totally unnecessary change, but you've still got X channels of guild voice chat as well as guild text chat. Can always have multiple groups and use the guild channels for voice comms, guild text for descriptive text walls for RP. I'm guessing there are few RP guilds that are so busy they have multiple large-scale (>12 player) RP events running simultaneously. Still, hopefully they hear you and reverse it.

Kikke

This change will also reduce all the bot trains by half xD So one good thing I guess? can survive some RP in chat if it combats some bots =P

ThorianB

It's fine. It's not like this game is an MMO or something where you have group content and complete objectives with friends...

Oh...wait... NVM. Skyrim Flashback! My bad.

Coorbin

ThorianB wrote: »

It's fine. It's not like this game is an MMO or something where you have group content and complete objectives with friends...

Oh...wait... NVM. Skyrim Flashback! My bad.

There's a meme in there somewhere... ZOS becomes Bethesda's development studio, converts ESO to the Gamebryo engine because Todd wants SIXTEEN TIMES THE DETAIL, and next time you log in, you hear, "Hey... you! You're finally awake!"

Then you learn that the game has been renamed to Elder Scrolls Offline and multiplayer has been disabled, but you still need an Internet connection to play.

SMH. This is the worst decision they've ever made about ESO.

VaranisArano

Aluna wrote: »

Wow. As the leader of a weekly WB run and a zone run for a big guild alliance I'm super angry.
This does not make any sense whatsoever. When you did that to Cyrodiil you literally said yourself that it doesnt result in a better performance (which, from a technical perspective, also wouldn't make much sense), or to quote Gina:

While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players

Trying to penalize zergs in a PvP zone is one thing but what in Oblivion does that have to do with PvE where people only use it and need it for zone runs, RP groups and other big guild events?? If you try to enrage your playerbase, you already do that well enough with your non-performing servers, endless maintenances and trillions of bugs, even without such nonsense changes!

Ironically, it doesn't penalize zerging. It penalizes PVP guilds who used to run organized groups or who used to pull PUGs together from zone chat. Bit it doesn't do jack-diddly to prevent players from faction-stacking at important objectives.

It's the same in PVE. It'll penalize guilds running events and PUGs who were running world boss groups during events. It won't do jack-diddly from preventing lots of players from running the Alikr Dolmen loop or showing up at Oblivion Gates at the Chapter launch.

VaxtinTheWolf

Long long ago there was a few people curious about 24-man Raids in ESO. Just thought I'd mention that considering the current situation the game has been struggling with.

Gaebriel0410

Yeah like I said before I really hope they aren't going through with it, but it's also odd that it was just a line of text in the notes and no reasoning for such a huge game-impacting change.

Like, if it's legit for technical reasons or better for the health of the game I'd have no choice but swallow it and adapt. But at the moment it comes across as just something to standardize (since they've been doing that with things like stat weights etc. on armour as well as of late) because there's no official activities, for lack of a better word, that require groups over 12.

It's such a small notice I would've completely missed it, if the entire roleplay community wasn't up in arms about it.

So please scrap this group size change, as social functions like this are ultimately the at heart of an MMORPG, especially with one that offers so many options besides the regular questing/pve/pvp.

GoodFella146

Well this could definitely mess up some of my cross guild events. Why are they doing this?

sollo_0

going to miss the 24-player group doing dolmens in Alik'r

anadandy

ajkb78 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

This is an awful change. We have very active guild WB runs that are almost always full.

This is a bad change.

Edit: Oh! I almost forgot about my housing guilds house tours! This will be a problem for them as well!

This does seem like a totally unnecessary change, but you've still got X channels of guild voice chat as well as guild text chat. Can always have multiple groups and use the guild channels for voice comms, guild text for descriptive text walls for RP. I'm guessing there are few RP guilds that are so busy they have multiple large-scale (>12 player) RP events running simultaneously. Still, hopefully they hear you and reverse it.

PC doesn't have native voice chat. There can be 500 people in a guild, a group of 12 "spamming" guild chat to everyone is a major pain point.

Philio

Bad idea. Fix the game, don’t remove things.

JoeCapricorn

This is a very bad change, and I must speak out against it.

There needs to be a good reason for it, and that needs to be addressed NOW and not when this change goes live in June.

Here are the many reasons why this change is terrible:

1. Several of my guilds host events where they group up and do various activities. Limiting the group size down to 12 will SEVERELY cripple this. For instance, sometimes labyrinth events are held. Grouping is critical for the organizers to see where the other contestants are at.

2. World bosses, especially during events that focus on a particular DLC or chapter, are often fought using groups. I rarely hit the 24-person limit, but I will say that I get more than 12 people on an absolutely regular basis. Most recently, when I ran a WB group in Wrothgar during the Anniversary.

3. Because there will be smaller groups fighting world bosses, there will also be a disconnect between how those groups organize. Say Group A fills up for King Chief Edu, and Group B has to start, then they gather but Group A's members get impatient and start killing the boss. Many players in Group B miss out on the boss and will have to wait until he respawns. This can happen now anyway, when a non-group member pulls the world boss, but I just see it happening much more frequently with mandatory smaller groups.

4. Some guilds run auctions using groups instead of the main guild chat. Alternatively, they could also gather in a player house and use /zone chat but that also means participants in the auction have to be confined to one spot. An auction group, would allow those participants to do other things in addition to bidding on items.

5. RPing guilds rely on groups for the same reason as number 1 and 4, they run events that are only for participants and don't want to clutter guild chat. Because these groups may find locations out in the wider world, using /say and /zone is out of the question as well, grouping allows for a modicum of privacy and less chance of disruption. By limiting groups to 12 people, you may inadvertently force RPing guilds to transmit their RPing out in the wild, and that may tempt opportunist trolls to harass them.

6. XP Farming. It's been a part of this game, and will always be a part of this game. But now, certain zones like Alik'r will become even more of an alphabet soup. On a busy day, it is sometimes X, Y, Z, and there can be up to 5 groups total. With a 12-group limit, that will only increase. You'll have people entering zone and immediately type this in zone:

a
b
c
d
e
f
g
h
i
j
k
l
m
n
o
p
q
r
s
t
u
v
w
x
y
z

I'm exaggerating a bit here, no single person is going to go through the entire alphabet (at least that often), but when you have multiple people vying for a spot in a group, it might as well be.

7. I am reminded of the fight over Rapid Maneuver last year. Unlike that time, there doesn't seem to be a point to lowering the group sizes outside of Cyrodiil. I never had performance issues when in a large group, and when there are events going on large numbers of people will congregate in the same area, so it cannot be a performance issue to begin with. Just because there aren't major activities that require a 24-person group doesn't mean that size group doesn't have its uses!

I beg you, please do not lower the group limit outside of Cyrodiil. I dislike the change for Cyrodiil as well, but it at least had a logical reasoning behind it. But outside of Cyrodiil? Large groups have more uses and are a necessity.

master_vanargand

I agree with group size to 12.
12 is just the right size for a squad.

Savina

As the leader of a large social guild, I would like to know what positive impact this reduction in group size brings to the game?

Our guild been dealing with the negative effects of the reduced group size in Cyrodill, and we had hoped the decision to reduce the group to 12 would be reversed. Now, you have not only shattered that “small chance in hell” hope but decided to extend the logistical problems to all content. Yes, we have adapted in Cyrodiil and we will adapt everywhere else. But I for one would like to know why we are being forced to adapt. We’ve not seen better performance in Cyrodiil , why are we not reverting to 24-man groups there instead of extending the group limitations to the rest of the game?

Are you seriously trying to make it harder for guilds to organize and run events? Do you know how hard it is to find people willing to be the 2nd-8th crown in a guild event? These secondary crowns must be able to find the event host/leader and stay with them with no indication of where they are on the map. When you port from one place to another, to insure everyone stays in the same instance you must allow the 1st crown to port, then all the secondary crowns must port to the 1st group crown via guild list since they are not grouped together, then all the group members can finally port to their crowns. Now instead of one or two people having to acknowledge the group is there, everyone can just wait here at the way/transite shrine until all the secondary crowns have confirmed arrival of their respective groups. You also must have group jumpers assigned, those people that will need to drop group and rejoin another of our groups to share the daily quest. This just makes guild events stressful for not only the group leaders but the participants also. Our guild utilizes the 24-man group size daily, and it is not uncommon for us to have 2-4 groups of 24 running. When a guild has 350-500 active members that enjoy daily events that include PvP, DLC world boss questing, base game WB killing, skyshard & lore book runs, daily delve and guild quest it takes a lot of dedicated people to pull it off. This group size change means more and more people must be willing to be a secondary crown, many think the headache is not worth it.

This change will also hinder our special events. World Boss Marathon that last 18+ hours as our guild kills ALL World Bosses. “An ESO Christmas Carol” event where we are already limited to 24 people in the home and can only have 16 audience members that use their group chat to comment on what they are experiencing. Our yearly birthday celebration or our bi-annual guild meetings that host 80-110 members regularly.

There are hundreds of social guilds out there that are going to see this as a large negative. Yeah, we will adapt that is for sure, we always do!

The question I have is this: Why do the developers feel that to enhance one group of players experience they must also hinder others? If this has to do with companions than disable them after a group reaches 12. If this has to do with performance, please explain how it helps because we have not seen any improvement on our side in Cyrodiil. What exactly is the group size of 24 hurting and why does it need changed? Many of the larger social guilds out there would lobby for 48 man grouping if we thought it would get us anywhere.

Goregrinder

master_vanargand wrote: »

I agree with group size to 12.
12 is just the right size for a squad.

Having played tons of Planetside, I agree. 12 is a nice round number and has enough players to coordinate with each other to performance whatever task is at hand.

nuvak

Large groups are essential for many of the things that go beyond pure "beating the game" and just these things make MMOs attractive for many people including me. You may not need groups of 24 to complete any objectives in the game, but these activities are the ones that creates the sense of community. May it be RP, social gathering, silly stuff ... there are enough examples in this thread. The 24 cap was already limiting at times and it will be much worse with 12, it would be a mayor blow to any players doing creative social activities.

If there is any way please revert this change and consider alternatives. For many use cases I could live with "extra big groups" having certain limitations, like on companions or group mechanics for skills. But having the group chat and seeing your group members marked is vital for this acitivities.

Fennwitty

I'd rather guilds retain the option to make large groups. That will reduce "spam" other players see because in smaller groups now players will have to use /yell or /zone simply to interact with each other.

/say potentially can be increased in range (I've had weird things with /say where one person was out of range of another somehow) but that's still "spam" to anyone else in the area.

rayne_405

As the leader of a console social guild,I really hope this change doesn't make it off PTS. For PS4 specifically we already have to contend with the group limits on PSN chat( my guild uses this because the in-game voice chat is less than ideal for events),and now you want to extend the Cyrodiil group limit to the rest of the game?? It hasn't impacted game performance before,so what's the actual reason for wanting to do this? You're just going to make running events for guilds of any kind that much more difficult.

BlueRaven

master_vanargand wrote: »

I agree with group size to 12.
12 is just the right size for a squad.

Feel free to limit your groups to 12 people then, you are not required to fill a group to max.

Just because you don’t like large groups is no reason to limit other peoples group sizes.

MasterWarrior

I don't like this change.

Goregrinder wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I agree with group size to 12.
12 is just the right size for a squad.

Having played tons of Planetside, I agree. 12 is a nice round number and has enough players to coordinate with each other to performance whatever task is at hand.

But this isn't Planetside though. ESO should have max party size of 24. In fact I would like that to be increased to 30 or 40, would make ESO a lot more fun and can organize activities for larger groups.

Spiral_Architect

"..and with the new update, a highly successful MMO makes a performance related change by limiting group size in PvE in lieu of upgrading their server/network infrastructure."

Said no one ever..

MMO's have been around for 20 years now, you folks are acting like you're trying to reinvent the wheel.
You don't limit group size in a MMO? Is this everyone's first job at ZOS?

As a paying customer, your leadership is disappointing.

VaranisArano

I wish ZOS would come out and say why they thought this was a good change. I don't expect to hear anything for a while, because they aren't exactly quick with the feedback, but in the meantime I'm left trying to come up with reasons that make sense.

What stuck out to me today was that one of the weekly Endeavor options is to kill 30 World Bosses. I sure hope it's a coincidence that ZOS is making it harder for guilds to organized World Boss runs.

tyran404_ESO

Still waiting for a reply from ZoS on this terrible change. After playing on the test server i can confirm it is as bad as it seems.

hashsnob

Anyone else find it hilarious this is the thread with the most pts feedback? Break the game, change everything, turn end game upside down, that's perfectly acceptable. But mess with the role players party's sizes, there's gonna be hell to pay!

DreadDaedroth

hashsnob wrote: »

Anyone else find it hilarious this is the thread with the most pts feedback? Break the game, change everything, turn end game upside down, that's perfectly acceptable. But mess with the role players party's sizes, there's gonna be hell to pay!

This so called change affects everyone guilds from RP to helpful PvE runs I t hink the reduction of group size in pvp is silly too , wasn't t Cyrodiil about big groups clashing, laying sieges to castles?