Ball Groups: A National Concern

jekyto

More sad is that due to enemy players being unable to fight, ballgroupers mislead themselves theyre good

neferpitou73

Amottica wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Makes more sense to just use the many counters already available instead of adding an I win button to the game. Ball groups would just use it against you and then people would be back complaining again.

No one said anything about an I win button. The lack of destructible environments make it difficult to counter certain game play. Their ability to stack spam heals and purges make current siege useless against them.

Like it or not, most players don't want to ball up. It shouldn't take a zerg to kill 12 enemies.

And if they want to use such a siege weapon then more power to them but there's a reason why they usually don't use siege. They aren't usually trying to take keeps.

You did. You want a piece of inventory to place down and kill multiple players that you are incapable of doing so with your actual abilities. That's absolutely an I Win button. It's the equivalent of opening up the console on a game like Civilization and just nuking the crap of all the other civilizations.

You honestly think destroying resource towers is going to stop the pugs that get farmed chasing organized groups and small scalers who wait in there? This is a behavior issue that's not going to go away because players can destroy a resource tower. There are probably 1001 choke points throughout Cyrodiil that will serve just as well.

It doesn't take a zerg to kill 12 enemies. It just takes another 12 players with better players, superior teamwork, and more intelligent tactics. That's it. There isn't any need for ZOS to hand out the equivalent of tactical nukes. If you don;t want to be a part of a group of 10-12, that's fine. Just stop mindlessly chasing groups (of whatever size) of skilled players simply hoping numerical superiority will win the day and you'll stop appearing on the kill counts of organized group players.

Even as a new player in ESO I have to agree with this as it not only makes sense but is completely logic-based. In any MMORPG, PvE or PvP, if I get obliterated I try to figure out how to overcome the obstacle. In PvE I realize others have accomplished or cleared the challenge and in PvP I work to rise to the occasion myself and/or with a group of players.

Heck, from the definition of a "ball group" provided to me in this thread is just makes sense to cease going into the tower and literally stop feeding them. Their tactic works only because players choose to keep feeding them.

First I want to say that your point about not feeding the ball group is perceptive and spot on. Most ball groups are after fights if you don't give them one they'll move on. If they keep trying to pick a fight they'll run into a ball group that can actually beat them.

The fact that this is a behavioral phenomenon is exactly what's been pointed out in previous threads on the subject. Ball groups aren't exploiting anything or doing anything weird aside from coordinating their sets and skills. of course they're going to win against an unorganized mass of players. Any changes made to sets or skills aren't going to help this because it's the coordination that makes ball groups good, they can adapt to these changes, while it's harder for solo and small scale players.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

maxjapank wrote: »

Salve of Renewal: When you remove a negative effect from yourself or an ally, you heal them and allies within an 8 meter radius of them for 1280 Health per stage. 5 stages max, at 10 points per stage.

This, along with Cleanse, Efficient purge, or the set Curse-Eater, is going to be extremely powerful in pvp. Especially if there is no cooldown.

And omg! Didn't even think about Warden's netch. A group of stamina wardens, a popular ball group, can passively heal each other infinitely. This is going to be so broken.

who needs cross healing anyway lol

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

DrSlaughtr

I'm concerned about this new Salve slottable CP on the PTS which auto heals anyone up to 6.5k every time they get a negative effect purged. If a group has a dedicated healers who's only job is to hit purge every 10 seconds (like ball groups) then it will further add to their strength.

Sandman929

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

In an organized group, these two mechanics are too strong and they are constant. In the hands of disorganized numbers these two mechanics are also strong, but inconstant. What changes to these mechanics would once again empower is siege. Siege is already strong against the disorganized because the mechanics in question are inconstant.

I have no doubt that groups will adapt, but there is no combination of current mechanics that gives the defensive strength currently in place with heal stacking and group purging. I have no doubt that organized will still beat disorganized. But that doesn't change my opinion about these two mechanics creating too great a defensive imbalance between organized groups and disorganized numbers.

Satiar

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

In an organized group, these two mechanics are too strong and they are constant. In the hands of disorganized numbers these two mechanics are also strong, but inconstant. What changes to these mechanics would once again empower is siege. Siege is already strong against the disorganized because the mechanics in question are inconstant.

I have no doubt that groups will adapt, but there is no combination of current mechanics that gives the defensive strength currently in place with heal stacking and group purging. I have no doubt that organized will still beat disorganized. But that doesn't change my opinion about these two mechanics creating too great a defensive imbalance between organized groups and disorganized numbers.

We’ve been at this forever. Heals/purge/defensive options have been nerfed, buffed and changed a dozen times. The reason ball groups continue to dominate is because 12 people working with a unified comp will always > 12 randoms.

You could always remove purge, but at that point you’d have to take a serious look at stacking negative effects, siege, etc.

Sandman929

Satiar wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

In an organized group, these two mechanics are too strong and they are constant. In the hands of disorganized numbers these two mechanics are also strong, but inconstant. What changes to these mechanics would once again empower is siege. Siege is already strong against the disorganized because the mechanics in question are inconstant.

I have no doubt that groups will adapt, but there is no combination of current mechanics that gives the defensive strength currently in place with heal stacking and group purging. I have no doubt that organized will still beat disorganized. But that doesn't change my opinion about these two mechanics creating too great a defensive imbalance between organized groups and disorganized numbers.

We’ve been at this forever. Heals/purge/defensive options have been nerfed, buffed and changed a dozen times. The reason ball groups continue to dominate is because 12 people working with a unified comp will always > 12 randoms.

You could always remove purge, but at that point you’d have to take a serious look at stacking negative effects, siege, etc.

There has been very little changed in the past few years. Sure Springs was replaced by Radiating, purge cost changed...rapids changed, but nothing about heal stacking and group purging has been touched, just the names of the skills have changed.

I know organized will beat disorganized. It should and will continue to do so. That has nothing to do what what I consider an advantage due to an imbalance. I've mentioned this several times.
I just don't like what I see as imbalances even when I benefit from them.

Also, I don't know if that "serious look" needs to happen. I don't know ZOS's plans for the strength of siege, but right now their current strength is zero against the usage of these mechanics in organized group play.

Satiar

Sandman929 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

In an organized group, these two mechanics are too strong and they are constant. In the hands of disorganized numbers these two mechanics are also strong, but inconstant. What changes to these mechanics would once again empower is siege. Siege is already strong against the disorganized because the mechanics in question are inconstant.

I have no doubt that groups will adapt, but there is no combination of current mechanics that gives the defensive strength currently in place with heal stacking and group purging. I have no doubt that organized will still beat disorganized. But that doesn't change my opinion about these two mechanics creating too great a defensive imbalance between organized groups and disorganized numbers.

We’ve been at this forever. Heals/purge/defensive options have been nerfed, buffed and changed a dozen times. The reason ball groups continue to dominate is because 12 people working with a unified comp will always > 12 randoms.

You could always remove purge, but at that point you’d have to take a serious look at stacking negative effects, siege, etc.

There has been very little changed in the past few years. Sure Springs was replaced by Radiating, purge cost changed...rapids changed, but nothing about heal stacking and group purging has been touched, just the names of the skills have changed.

I know organized will beat disorganized. It should and will continue to do so. That has nothing to do what what I consider an advantage due to an imbalance. I've mentioned this several times.
I just don't like what I see as imbalances even when I benefit from them.

Also, I don't know if that "serious look" needs to happen. I don't know ZOS's plans for the strength of siege, but right now their current strength is zero against the usage of these mechanics in organized group play.

Siege is not zero against organized groups, what game are you playing? It is the primary cause of death even with shields abs dedicated purgers.

If heal stacking and purging is changed, then incoming effects should also be adjusted. When 59 people are chasing you, you have two options:

1. Purge
2. Die

If ZoS removes the ability to remove negative effects or stack hots against it, they need to adjust incoming negative effects. Otherwise it will simply turn into a numbers win situation. That IS the one thing groups won’t be able to play around. An inability to remove negative effects would be crushing. To everyone, yes. But also ball groups.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

In an organized group, these two mechanics are too strong and they are constant. In the hands of disorganized numbers these two mechanics are also strong, but inconstant. What changes to these mechanics would once again empower is siege. Siege is already strong against the disorganized because the mechanics in question are inconstant.

I have no doubt that groups will adapt, but there is no combination of current mechanics that gives the defensive strength currently in place with heal stacking and group purging. I have no doubt that organized will still beat disorganized. But that doesn't change my opinion about these two mechanics creating too great a defensive imbalance between organized groups and disorganized numbers.

We’ve been at this forever. Heals/purge/defensive options have been nerfed, buffed and changed a dozen times. The reason ball groups continue to dominate is because 12 people working with a unified comp will always > 12 randoms.

You could always remove purge, but at that point you’d have to take a serious look at stacking negative effects, siege, etc.

There has been very little changed in the past few years. Sure Springs was replaced by Radiating, purge cost changed...rapids changed, but nothing about heal stacking and group purging has been touched, just the names of the skills have changed.

I know organized will beat disorganized. It should and will continue to do so. That has nothing to do what what I consider an advantage due to an imbalance. I've mentioned this several times.
I just don't like what I see as imbalances even when I benefit from them.

Also, I don't know if that "serious look" needs to happen. I don't know ZOS's plans for the strength of siege, but right now their current strength is zero against the usage of these mechanics in organized group play.

I feel like you haven't played in organised groups recently if you feel that siege has zero usage. It's the thing that we consistently take the most damage from in raid and the only real threat outside of numbers and other groups surfing their factions

Edit: game bugs are still the biggest/most annoying threat but that's just a ZoS problem.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

In an organized group, these two mechanics are too strong and they are constant. In the hands of disorganized numbers these two mechanics are also strong, but inconstant. What changes to these mechanics would once again empower is siege. Siege is already strong against the disorganized because the mechanics in question are inconstant.

I have no doubt that groups will adapt, but there is no combination of current mechanics that gives the defensive strength currently in place with heal stacking and group purging. I have no doubt that organized will still beat disorganized. But that doesn't change my opinion about these two mechanics creating too great a defensive imbalance between organized groups and disorganized numbers.

We’ve been at this forever. Heals/purge/defensive options have been nerfed, buffed and changed a dozen times. The reason ball groups continue to dominate is because 12 people working with a unified comp will always > 12 randoms.

You could always remove purge, but at that point you’d have to take a serious look at stacking negative effects, siege, etc.

There has been very little changed in the past few years. Sure Springs was replaced by Radiating, purge cost changed...rapids changed, but nothing about heal stacking and group purging has been touched, just the names of the skills have changed.

There have actually been huge changes to how groups purge and heal. Heal stacking has been a core combat mechanic in ESO since launch so ofc it hasn't changed. It's like saying they should remove weaving.

Minnesinger

Satiar wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

In an organized group, these two mechanics are too strong and they are constant. In the hands of disorganized numbers these two mechanics are also strong, but inconstant. What changes to these mechanics would once again empower is siege. Siege is already strong against the disorganized because the mechanics in question are inconstant.

I have no doubt that groups will adapt, but there is no combination of current mechanics that gives the defensive strength currently in place with heal stacking and group purging. I have no doubt that organized will still beat disorganized. But that doesn't change my opinion about these two mechanics creating too great a defensive imbalance between organized groups and disorganized numbers.

We’ve been at this forever. Heals/purge/defensive options have been nerfed, buffed and changed a dozen times. The reason ball groups continue to dominate is because 12 people working with a unified comp will always > 12 randoms.

You could always remove purge, but at that point you’d have to take a serious look at stacking negative effects, siege, etc.

That is what my experience of this game<also shows. Skill + tactic rule over the numbers. Of course, there is a limit to that if you send 30 players to kill 8 the outcome favors the numbers. There is a strange mindset in ESO that the numbers should win. That is such a misunderstood concept that would ruin the game altogether. Has there ever been a game that doesn´t have the tactic to be main factor or skill. Every now and then all is about the luck.

Sandman929

I don't expect to convince those enjoying the benefits of this imbalance. Very few players that use imbalances try to draw attention to them. ESOs community is "if you see something, say nothing "

Kartalin

Part of the problem here not being addressed is why ungrouped individuals or less organized groups have such an aversion to slotting purge themselves. This is an option you know, right? You don't have to die under that oil again soldier. Choose Life!

circa May 2016, as a stamblade ganker, with purge slotted and being used

Sure you're not going to be able to spam it like a dedicated purge build would, but you can pick your spots to use it effectively, especially since we have more magicka than before.

Jaraal

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I'm concerned about this new Salve slottable CP on the PTS which auto heals anyone up to 6.5k every time they get a negative effect purged. If a group has a dedicated healers who's only job is to hit purge every 10 seconds (like ball groups) then it will further add to their strength.

Should stack nicely with the Curse Eater set, too! Now if we can just get the zerglings to wear it, imagine the unkillable faction stacks we could attain!

Also, high HP necros spamming virtually zero cost Hexproof will become highly sought after commodities in ball groups as well.

Can't wait to experience the new "balance!"

HanStolo

I was very critical of ball grps. However, since the changes in Cyro, I can live with where they are now. They aren't immortal any longer. They can and do get take damage now. They are still a little laggy to be around but the current state is livable IMO. Don't change much. Tweak....

maxjapank

Jaraal wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I'm concerned about this new Salve slottable CP on the PTS which auto heals anyone up to 6.5k every time they get a negative effect purged. If a group has a dedicated healers who's only job is to hit purge every 10 seconds (like ball groups) then it will further add to their strength.

Should stack nicely with the Curse Eater set, too! Now if we can just get the zerglings to wear it, imagine the unkillable faction stacks we could attain!

Also, high HP necros spamming virtually zero cost Hexproof will become highly sought after commodities in ball groups as well.

Can't wait to experience the new "balance!"

Any Warden running netch will activate this. No cost. Free aoe group heal.

Soul_Demon

Sandman929 wrote: »

I don't expect to convince those enjoying the benefits of this imbalance. Very few players that use imbalances try to draw attention to them. ESOs community is "if you see something, say nothing "

You never will either I think as some have come to view any changes to heals as absolutely game-breaking.

If you healed someone at full health, nothing at all should happen....nothing. No stack waiting to be pulled into with balance providing some un tapped endless resource pool, no unregistered damage counter waiting to never let your health drop and put you in danger of forcing a quick counter to survive. You would have to respond much quicker and to what is happening at that very moment rather than something you layer just before an ulti push out. You really should not be able to stack up in a line a series of heals that cover you for the next 15-20 seconds in totality BEFORE anything that hits you can even dip into your health as damage. To remove that all you would need to do is make it that 100% health players get no heals whatsoever UNTIL they have been damaged.

Ackwalan

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

Pugs don't get heal stack. They don't get constant heals, purge or buffs the way ball groups do. When global cool downs were tested we all saw how ball groups adjusted. They just didn't show up.

Satiar

Ackwalan wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

Pugs don't get heal stack. They don't get constant heals, purge or buffs the way ball groups do. When global cool downs were tested we all saw how ball groups adjusted. They just didn't show up.

A lot of the good ones did and still found a way to farm, although things did get far more frontline-y.

The reason many people didn’t show up isn’t because it was impossible to play, but because it wasn’t fun. Hard to play this game half a decade abs then BAM! Cool downs.

Earthewen

Satiar wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

Pugs don't get heal stack. They don't get constant heals, purge or buffs the way ball groups do. When global cool downs were tested we all saw how ball groups adjusted. They just didn't show up.

A lot of the good ones did and still found a way to farm, although things did get far more frontline-y.

The reason many people didn’t show up isn’t because it was impossible to play, but because it wasn’t fun. Hard to play this game half a decade abs then BAM! Cool downs.

I think the fun has been slowly going down the tubes for a long time. A LOT of people are having difficulty staying on online long enough to have a good time. The lag and disconnects have now bled over into the pve realm as well. This game is by far the most beautiful game out there in my opinion. The layout, artwork, realistic characters ... The devs actually made talking cats and lizards believable. That isn't an easy feat!

But where PvP is concerned, all of the testing hasn't shown anything to them per their own words. It would seem, then, that logic would dictate that it is something we HAVEN'T looked into yet. Therefore, I think exploring what hasn't changed over these few months MUST be contributing to the issues. What hasn't changed? If you look at the logs, it is a telling story. I'm not really sure why people don't want to look at what is still happening as a possible problem. We've looked at everything else.


“How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?” - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Throughout this testing, we have looked at casting cooldown, group size, almost every rock has been overturned. ZOS has already said that nothing was revealed. This tells us that it must be something else then. We have not tried any working universal/global immunities on the receiving end of the skills. We have not looked at the possibility that constant weapon swapping and the calculations required to change every time we swap possibly being a contributor. Until these are investigated, and anything else looked at that has been missed previously, not one person can proclaim that a solution does not exist. Equally, it is impossible to look at something that has not been tested reasonably and say, "That isn't the problem." The truth is until it is thoroughly tested, no one really knows for sure. Do they?

Kwoung

Kartalin wrote: »

Part of the problem here not being addressed is why ungrouped individuals or less organized groups have such an aversion to slotting purge themselves. This is an option you know, right? You don't have to die under that oil again soldier. Choose Life!

circa May 2016, as a stamblade ganker, with purge slotted and being used

Sure you're not going to be able to spam it like a dedicated purge build would, but you can pick your spots to use it effectively, especially since we have more magicka than before.

No clue. I always have purge on my bar.

TequilaFire

Because they don't want to give up an offensive slot and spec into damage only.

Crash427

Earthewen wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

Pugs don't get heal stack. They don't get constant heals, purge or buffs the way ball groups do. When global cool downs were tested we all saw how ball groups adjusted. They just didn't show up.

A lot of the good ones did and still found a way to farm, although things did get far more frontline-y.

The reason many people didn’t show up isn’t because it was impossible to play, but because it wasn’t fun. Hard to play this game half a decade abs then BAM! Cool downs.

I think the fun has been slowly going down the tubes for a long time. A LOT of people are having difficulty staying on online long enough to have a good time. The lag and disconnects have now bled over into the pve realm as well. This game is by far the most beautiful game out there in my opinion. The layout, artwork, realistic characters ... The devs actually made talking cats and lizards believable. That isn't an easy feat!

But where PvP is concerned, all of the testing hasn't shown anything to them per their own words. It would seem, then, that logic would dictate that it is something we HAVEN'T looked into yet. Therefore, I think exploring what hasn't changed over these few months MUST be contributing to the issues. What hasn't changed? If you look at the logs, it is a telling story. I'm not really sure why people don't want to look at what is still happening as a possible problem. We've looked at everything else.


“How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?” - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Throughout this testing, we have looked at casting cooldown, group size, almost every rock has been overturned. ZOS has already said that nothing was revealed. This tells us that it must be something else then. We have not tried any working universal/global immunities on the receiving end of the skills. We have not looked at the possibility that constant weapon swapping and the calculations required to change every time we swap possibly being a contributor. Until these are investigated, and anything else looked at that has been missed previously, not one person can proclaim that a solution does not exist. Equally, it is impossible to look at something that has not been tested reasonably and say, "That isn't the problem." The truth is until it is thoroughly tested, no one really knows for sure. Do they?

The problem probably has more to do with them moving everything server side. Remember when Rich said they were reworking block on the backend and players wouldn't notice a change? Well people noticed. Thats just one example.

It's mostly speculation but the timing with the release on stadia raises some questions they've never addressed.

IxSTALKERxI

What I find most interesting about this thread is that it is only a national concern and not an international one.

Vizirith

Earthewen wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

You probably wouldn't like how that would play out. Coordinated groups would change and adapt almost immediately, normal players would chug along business as usual and be wiped quicker than ever due to not having the protection of 50 random players around them taking care of their buffs, heals and purges for them.

I go out solo or in non-coordinated groups all the time and when taking keeps "in the zerg", many times I have more heals running on me than I get in my regular group just due to the shear number of folks around me casting them. The difference is not the heals stacking, it is the difference in how the average player takes advantage of them, versus how a group working together does. The average player would melt in 2 seconds without all that protection and have a worst time in Cyro than anything they have experienced to date.

If I didn't play in a ballgroup, that might be a scary "oh no, what if it makes things worse" comment. But you can't BS a BSer...I know exactly what heal stacking and group purge means to the group.

Except that the scenarios in which you are mentioning heal stacking should be removed will be a new one. i.e. it is removed for everyone not just groups. Due to this groups will actually be stronger because of the ability to bring multiple varieties of heal to stack instead whereas pugs will still mostly be limited to what the 'most common' ones are. (most people use for example radiating when pug surfing but now only 1 form of it will stack).

This will also affect peoples surfing AP too. Thats why I'm saying (as someone who's been playing in all forms of group since essentially launch) What you are requesting as a 'nerf' to group play which you consider as overpowered in favour of groups right now actually will be more so after it is removed. (Because right now everyone has access to it regardless of how organised their groups/zergs are). Hence the 'be careful what you wish for' type posts.

Pugs don't get heal stack. They don't get constant heals, purge or buffs the way ball groups do. When global cool downs were tested we all saw how ball groups adjusted. They just didn't show up.

A lot of the good ones did and still found a way to farm, although things did get far more frontline-y.

The reason many people didn’t show up isn’t because it was impossible to play, but because it wasn’t fun. Hard to play this game half a decade abs then BAM! Cool downs.

I think the fun has been slowly going down the tubes for a long time. A LOT of people are having difficulty staying on online long enough to have a good time. The lag and disconnects have now bled over into the pve realm as well. This game is by far the most beautiful game out there in my opinion. The layout, artwork, realistic characters ... The devs actually made talking cats and lizards believable. That isn't an easy feat!

But where PvP is concerned, all of the testing hasn't shown anything to them per their own words. It would seem, then, that logic would dictate that it is something we HAVEN'T looked into yet. Therefore, I think exploring what hasn't changed over these few months MUST be contributing to the issues. What hasn't changed? If you look at the logs, it is a telling story. I'm not really sure why people don't want to look at what is still happening as a possible problem. We've looked at everything else.


“How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?” - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Throughout this testing, we have looked at casting cooldown, group size, almost every rock has been overturned. ZOS has already said that nothing was revealed. This tells us that it must be something else then. We have not tried any working universal/global immunities on the receiving end of the skills. We have not looked at the possibility that constant weapon swapping and the calculations required to change every time we swap possibly being a contributor. Until these are investigated, and anything else looked at that has been missed previously, not one person can proclaim that a solution does not exist. Equally, it is impossible to look at something that has not been tested reasonably and say, "That isn't the problem." The truth is until it is thoroughly tested, no one really knows for sure. Do they?

Group size did have a a clear impact, just not to the extent zos wanted it to. I think alot of different things have come together to make lag. But you have to balance lag reduction with player's happiness. You can eliminate groups entirely, make everything only self heal, make all aoe's have a shared global cooldown again and eliminate dot/heal stacking. Lag would be greatly reduced, but most people wouldn't be too happy. I think most of us would rather have a smaller reduction in lag while having as little impact on the player base as possible. Looking at dot/heal stacking, maybe reducing group size to 8 and other less intrusive ideas. The elimination of healing outside your group was a worthwhile one, but the average person never ran with a dedicated healer anyway and nor did they themselves have much by the way aoe heals. So you really only reduced the stress from group healers, but only on people outside their group which they never were going out of their way to heal anyway.

CooloutAC

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Makes more sense to just use the many counters already available instead of adding an I win button to the game. Ball groups would just use it against you and then people would be back complaining again.

No one said anything about an I win button. The lack of destructible environments make it difficult to counter certain game play. Their ability to stack spam heals and purges make current siege useless against them.

Like it or not, most players don't want to ball up. It shouldn't take a zerg to kill 12 enemies.

And if they want to use such a siege weapon then more power to them but there's a reason why they usually don't use siege. They aren't usually trying to take keeps.

You did. You want a piece of inventory to place down and kill multiple players that you are incapable of doing so with your actual abilities. That's absolutely an I Win button. It's the equivalent of opening up the console on a game like Civilization and just nuking the crap of all the other civilizations.

You honestly think destroying resource towers is going to stop the pugs that get farmed chasing organized groups and small scalers who wait in there? This is a behavior issue that's not going to go away because players can destroy a resource tower. There are probably 1001 choke points throughout Cyrodiil that will serve just as well.

It doesn't take a zerg to kill 12 enemies. It just takes another 12 players with better players, superior teamwork, and more intelligent tactics. That's it. There isn't any need for ZOS to hand out the equivalent of tactical nukes. If you don;t want to be a part of a group of 10-12, that's fine. Just stop mindlessly chasing groups (of whatever size) of skilled players simply hoping numerical superiority will win the day and you'll stop appearing on the kill counts of organized group players.

Even as a new player in ESO I have to agree with this as it not only makes sense but is completely logic-based. In any MMORPG, PvE or PvP, if I get obliterated I try to figure out how to overcome the obstacle. In PvE I realize others have accomplished or cleared the challenge and in PvP I work to rise to the occasion myself and/or with a group of players.

Heck, from the definition of a "ball group" provided to me in this thread is just makes sense to cease going into the tower and literally stop feeding them. Their tactic works only because players choose to keep feeding them.

First I want to say that your point about not feeding the ball group is perceptive and spot on. Most ball groups are after fights if you don't give them one they'll move on. If they keep trying to pick a fight they'll run into a ball group that can actually beat them.

The fact that this is a behavioral phenomenon is exactly what's been pointed out in previous threads on the subject. Ball groups aren't exploiting anything or doing anything weird aside from coordinating their sets and skills. of course they're going to win against an unorganized mass of players. Any changes made to sets or skills aren't going to help this because it's the coordination that makes ball groups good, they can adapt to these changes, while it's harder for solo and small scale players.

but what do you mean by "win"? getting the most kills on their kill counter? Because for some reason they do not like to take keeps or defend them. They don't do much to help their team "win" imo. And that makes it seem like their only goal is to ragequit players. especially when all most of them do is try to 3rd party the losing faction. They are basically killing the game. And you have to just assume players who play like that will so do other things to ragequit players. Its not sporting or competitive. Thats why imo, grayhost is much more poupular then the unlocked factions. Less deplorables and more people wanting to try and win the campaign for their faction. So more even numbers making ballgroups less effective when there are other groups to counter them. This is more of a problem in ravenwatch imo.

And I've said it before but I left gw2's wvw mode to come play eso's cyrodil because I didn't like the ball group style of play. And cyrodil seems more small scale and less about aoe bombs and heals. But at least the gw2 groups are trying to win map and there is plenty ball groups to go around for some competition.

Joy_Division

CooloutAC wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Makes more sense to just use the many counters already available instead of adding an I win button to the game. Ball groups would just use it against you and then people would be back complaining again.

No one said anything about an I win button. The lack of destructible environments make it difficult to counter certain game play. Their ability to stack spam heals and purges make current siege useless against them.

Like it or not, most players don't want to ball up. It shouldn't take a zerg to kill 12 enemies.

And if they want to use such a siege weapon then more power to them but there's a reason why they usually don't use siege. They aren't usually trying to take keeps.

You did. You want a piece of inventory to place down and kill multiple players that you are incapable of doing so with your actual abilities. That's absolutely an I Win button. It's the equivalent of opening up the console on a game like Civilization and just nuking the crap of all the other civilizations.

You honestly think destroying resource towers is going to stop the pugs that get farmed chasing organized groups and small scalers who wait in there? This is a behavior issue that's not going to go away because players can destroy a resource tower. There are probably 1001 choke points throughout Cyrodiil that will serve just as well.

It doesn't take a zerg to kill 12 enemies. It just takes another 12 players with better players, superior teamwork, and more intelligent tactics. That's it. There isn't any need for ZOS to hand out the equivalent of tactical nukes. If you don;t want to be a part of a group of 10-12, that's fine. Just stop mindlessly chasing groups (of whatever size) of skilled players simply hoping numerical superiority will win the day and you'll stop appearing on the kill counts of organized group players.

Even as a new player in ESO I have to agree with this as it not only makes sense but is completely logic-based. In any MMORPG, PvE or PvP, if I get obliterated I try to figure out how to overcome the obstacle. In PvE I realize others have accomplished or cleared the challenge and in PvP I work to rise to the occasion myself and/or with a group of players.

Heck, from the definition of a "ball group" provided to me in this thread is just makes sense to cease going into the tower and literally stop feeding them. Their tactic works only because players choose to keep feeding them.

First I want to say that your point about not feeding the ball group is perceptive and spot on. Most ball groups are after fights if you don't give them one they'll move on. If they keep trying to pick a fight they'll run into a ball group that can actually beat them.

The fact that this is a behavioral phenomenon is exactly what's been pointed out in previous threads on the subject. Ball groups aren't exploiting anything or doing anything weird aside from coordinating their sets and skills. of course they're going to win against an unorganized mass of players. Any changes made to sets or skills aren't going to help this because it's the coordination that makes ball groups good, they can adapt to these changes, while it's harder for solo and small scale players.

but what do you mean by "win"? getting the most kills on their kill counter? Because for some reason they do not like to take keeps or defend them. They don't do much to help their team "win" imo. And that makes it seem like their only goal is to ragequit players. especially when all most of them do is try to 3rd party the losing faction. They are basically killing the game. And you have to just assume players who play like that will so do other things to ragequit players. Its not sporting or competitive. Thats why imo, grayhost is much more poupular then the unlocked factions. Less deplorables and more people wanting to try and win the campaign for their faction. So more even numbers making ballgroups less effective when there are other groups to counter them. This is more of a problem in ravenwatch imo.

And I've said it before but I left gw2's wvw mode to come play eso's cyrodil because I didn't like the ball group style of play. And cyrodil seems more small scale and less about aoe bombs and heals. But at least the gw2 groups are trying to win map and there is plenty ball groups to go around for some competition.

Well, that's part of the problem. What do you mean by "win"? Are you referring to the AvAvA campaign, in which the majority of points gets decided in off-hours, has a scoring mechanism where literally only 1 second of 3600 counts for anything, and the rewards are so lackluster I'd be better off farming plants in a starter island zone for an hour than 30 days of leading my Alliance to a campaign win? That sounds more to me like waste of time and effort than winning, but hey, we all play for different reasons and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

At this point, I consider winning when my game doesn't crash, my skills fire off, and at least half of my friends bother showing up so I can have a decent social experience.