Ball Groups: A National Concern

Jaraal

PirateShaped wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Inevitable Detonation used to be one effective way for pugs to beat groups. Still is. But with how you are consistently stuck in combat, you often cannot slot it to fight back. And it's not really so effective in fighting anything else so it's hard to find anyone with it slotted these days. But I do remember times when several in zone would call out for slotting it, several would, and suddenly the ball groups would be exploding. It was one way.

Slotted this for years. It's a great skill that I think is underutilized. You will never get the damage of a proxy det surprise bomb but you get multiple smaller bombs. It is also more spammable than what people give it credit for. It will never wipe a good group on its own but it can be a lot of added pressure if there are other people supporting you. I actually find this skill more effective the better the group is. Simply because inev det gets stronger the closer you stack and the more often you purge.

Agreed.

I have this backbarred on all my PvP characters, including stamina focused (except my magblade bomber, who uses Proxy). It's great for casting into towers, barns, on ram stacks, wall runners, etc from range. And sychronizes nicely with the new Occult Overload CP perk. It's a shame more folks don't use it, as it can be very good pressure when used by multiple players.

master_vanargand

Greasytengu wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I often see Ballgroup using Blood Altar.
Moreover, Ballgroup uses 3-4 or more Blood Altar at the same time.

Why does Ballgroup do something seemingly useless?

[snip]

Blood altar has a very strong heal as its synergy and the healing from lifesteal really adds up.


Its no more server intensive than any other AOE ability, possibly less as it does not have to calculate the healing done. Minor lifesteal provides a flat 600 healing per tick. You can only have one instance of any major/minor buff on you at any time, so its not like the server has to calculate the healing from 3 different blood altars.


This blatant witch-huntery has to stop. Its honestly getting ridiculous, Nobody is deliberately causing lag, and furthermore, lag is detrimental to a group that tends to fight a larger number which is specifically what ball groups do, so why would they want to cause it?

Lag happens because the servers cant handle the load, because the anti cheat measures have created a data bottleneck, because the spaghetti coding.

Blood Altar is known as a very server-intensive skill.
It requires much more computation than a normal AoE skill.

DrSlaughtr

Amottica wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Please forgive me for my question out of ignorance as I am a new player. I have seen another thread recently that complained about ball groups but a ball group was never defined.

What is a ball group? I would expect, and hope, it is more than a group that uses a building as a defense as I would expect an organized group of a decent size could handle that.

Granted, I have only run with a small group but they tended to communicate well. Heck, I remember coming off a high terrain only to die in the fall. I respawned immediately and noticed an enemy player waiting for me to come out of that ghostish looking phase. LOL. I guess he thought he would get an easy kill but the rest of my group had already turned around and killed him as I was materializing. Communication kills.

I think a definition for most is ball groups tend to focus effort on play specifically designed to kill players where the group holds advantageous ground (choke points) or through excess in movement. If you want to break that into more easily stated goals they try to 'farm players' Organized groups on the other hand tend to focus on taking objectives on the map correlating to alliance score and faction advantage.

Both tend to run tightly packed to maximize the damage/healing/buffs/debuffs available to them and are highly organized in the nature of how they move......the biggest difference is in the choice they make in where to fight and how they either move or stay based on the previously mentioned goals each has. Of course some may use other criteria, but that has been my understanding of the differences for a very long time now. If you come across either groups you will notice they tend to select very different terrain to fight in as well due to the nature of the choices in play-styles the groups make.

Again, please forgive my ignorance as I am new to this game.

From this explanation, it seems like the moth being drawn to the flame. Except for us, we can figure out that it is better to leave that flame alone and go somewhere else. That would effectively kill the use of these ball groups. Just a thought.

This is what people constantly say. Just leave them alone... Go run off to Sej while they take home keeps or scrolls, because that's what any good group would do if not pushed back.

Greasytengu

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I often see Ballgroup using Blood Altar.
Moreover, Ballgroup uses 3-4 or more Blood Altar at the same time.

Why does Ballgroup do something seemingly useless?

[snip]

Blood altar has a very strong heal as its synergy and the healing from lifesteal really adds up.


Its no more server intensive than any other AOE ability, possibly less as it does not have to calculate the healing done. Minor lifesteal provides a flat 600 healing per tick. You can only have one instance of any major/minor buff on you at any time, so its not like the server has to calculate the healing from 3 different blood altars.


This blatant witch-huntery has to stop. Its honestly getting ridiculous, Nobody is deliberately causing lag, and furthermore, lag is detrimental to a group that tends to fight a larger number which is specifically what ball groups do, so why would they want to cause it?

Lag happens because the servers cant handle the load, because the anti cheat measures have created a data bottleneck, because the spaghetti coding.

Blood Altar is known as a very server-intensive skill.
It requires much more computation than a normal AoE skill.

You got any sources for that claim?

Soul_Demon

Amottica wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Please forgive me for my question out of ignorance as I am a new player. I have seen another thread recently that complained about ball groups but a ball group was never defined.

What is a ball group? I would expect, and hope, it is more than a group that uses a building as a defense as I would expect an organized group of a decent size could handle that.

Granted, I have only run with a small group but they tended to communicate well. Heck, I remember coming off a high terrain only to die in the fall. I respawned immediately and noticed an enemy player waiting for me to come out of that ghostish looking phase. LOL. I guess he thought he would get an easy kill but the rest of my group had already turned around and killed him as I was materializing. Communication kills.

I think a definition for most is ball groups tend to focus effort on play specifically designed to kill players where the group holds advantageous ground (choke points) or through excess in movement. If you want to break that into more easily stated goals they try to 'farm players' Organized groups on the other hand tend to focus on taking objectives on the map correlating to alliance score and faction advantage.

Both tend to run tightly packed to maximize the damage/healing/buffs/debuffs available to them and are highly organized in the nature of how they move......the biggest difference is in the choice they make in where to fight and how they either move or stay based on the previously mentioned goals each has. Of course some may use other criteria, but that has been my understanding of the differences for a very long time now. If you come across either groups you will notice they tend to select very different terrain to fight in as well due to the nature of the choices in play-styles the groups make.

Again, please forgive my ignorance as I am new to this game.

From this explanation, it seems like the moth being drawn to the flame. Except for us, we can figure out that it is better to leave that flame alone and go somewhere else. That would effectively kill the use of these ball groups. Just a thought.

Not at all .......matter of fact wonder why so few attempt to quantify what the differences in these groups are for newer players as it really should be defined more clearly so they are better able to follow conversations about how to deal with these groups.

Yes, leaving is an option with ball groups as their intent is to either build a tick or move through natural chokes. But its also critical to note they will have to keep kills happening (on a timer) in order to effectively build said tick.....this means you may predict required movement of them to a degree and counter more effectively if ever they have gone a significant amount of time without a kill inside a tower or other resource.

The same can be stated of organized raids that play map for faction dominance- the movement is predictable as you know what the goals are ahead of time and what they value. Organized raids tend to view things differently since they value the most points per hour they can take from enemy/gain for the faction. A single push results in them being tethered to said resources as that is what the are there for rarely getting them to break the attack moving to flags with predictability without a full wipe. In fact this is why often they will ignore groups deemed to not be a real threat to them in taking said resource or keep that are near to them to stay focused on the primary target rather than pursue or run down players appearing less organized and aggressive.


Conversely, ball groups tend to move to bait others or reposition to gain the advantage on incoming players they hope to draw in and will simply leave area if players coming in slows significantly enough and go elsewhere to try again. This means they are going to run down one, two or three players regardless if they have gone significant amount of time without a kill as they want to keep tic building or simply walk off outright if not enough show up or are being baited in to them. What might appear to be arbitrary movement to kill a player that is out of the way, is anything but arbitrary if you are paying attention to how many kills are being gained just prior to. It also means if you are not in a group equipped to effect a full wipe of them, you likely are the one helping them build the tic and keep it going for them.

Both are predictable to a degree, though for different reasons. Understanding the goal differences for the groups helps predict the choices they will make and increases the chances of being successful against either one. Of course there are differing opinions on this subject, but this is my experience with each group and what I use to deal with them when I encounter one.

Earthewen

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The other thread was closed because of mean people. Let's have a constructive thread.

Ball groups aren't going anywhere. Change whatever you want, the players will adapt.

The issue for me is that they tend to exploit inherent weakness in the combat system while also overloading the server with aoe spasm that further make it hard to kill them.

Strategically, they can avoid most attacks by going into towers which also prevents the most effective counter attacks.

Most siege is useless at best because either you can't directly hit them or they simply shrug off the damage.

We need a better counter. For example what if there was a new siege weapon that exploded on impact, dealing increased damage for each additional player hit?

What if resource towers were destructible?

If groups want to ball up, I'm all for it. But there needs to be a better counter than sending 30 people to kill 12. I think ball groups might actually enjoy a better challenge but hey, easy ap is hard to turn down.

Any other (non trollish) ideas?

I would agree with almost everything you said here. However, I don't think it is just the AOE that is causing all the lag. I think it is far more likely that the constant speed with which they are going off is the problem along with the CC overuse. There are some groups who realize that you can exploit the fear CC to an advantage. If two or more fears are layered with other things, you can try to break free or roll dodge until you're blue in the face. You aren't going anywhere and your stam will still be drained. The speed with which these skills go down might be causing an electronic bottleneck in the system and with any macros, etc., ... Well, there goes the neighborhood.

I think a universal immunity on all CCs would be the way to go. 1) it would discourage so much spamming. If once you had global immunity from one CC that would last, say 5 or 6 secs, those ball groups would have to stop relying on them quite as heavily as they do. Most ball groups just CC everyone until they can't move and then ulti them to death or synergize them to death while they try to break free in vain. 2) The game experience in pvp would improve if this were done. There is nothing fun about finally getting free of a CC only to be Cc'ed again immediately. Right now, if you happen to break free from one person's CC, the next one from someone else will immediately hold you fast. This isn't much fun, and it would sort of take the wind out of the sails of people who say they are a great player because they killed you while you couldn't fight back. That doesn't make a fun fight for anyone. I mean, is it a fight when one person cannot fight back? Nah. Not really.

And finally ... 3) Because of fewer people relying so heavily on CC's, we might see a performance improvement. Now I know many will argue this point in an effort to protect how they play, and I understand that. However, wouldn't it be much better to make the sacrifice of so many CCs in order to improve the overall health of pvp? I would think if you really like pvp, you'd be willing to put up with it in order to improve game performance, faction populations, etc.

bugmom

Ball group - a group of players who just killed you and your group or a group of players you haven't been able to kill.

Organized group - the group you are in who move together, coordinate skills and builds, and you are so good you dominate

Dat

(sigh) another one of these.......

Groups like ours will always take the blame for server lag no matter what is shown. It sad actually. The fact that some people think that ball groups ARENT organized amuses me a lot lol. In groups such as these victory and defeat relies on the lead making correct calls at the right times and the players making correct callouts and reacting accordingly. There is SO MUCH organization in a ball group. However I can see why we get so much hate. I would hate to lose over and over as well. There is a counter to us. Other groups who play like us, or overwhelming force (which is what were actively looking for btw).

Feel free to keep making assumptions about things you either
A. haven't tried
B. know nothing about
C. just enjoy a good witch hunt (who doesn't like a good witch hunt )

Ballgroups aren't going anywhere anytime soon. In fact, I've seen quite a few new ones springing up. So you all might as well either figure out how to fight us or just leave us alone, we'll get bored, and we'll leave to go somewhere else.

Dat the Rage Blade

side note.....
In MOST ballgroups only one person is CC spamming for lockdowns just for the record. And its normally a NB with mass hysteria. You see them moving your direction you move out of the way or dodge roll through them.

tamanosou

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The other thread was closed because of mean people. Let's have a constructive thread.

Ball groups aren't going anywhere. Change whatever you want, the players will adapt.

The issue for me is that they tend to exploit inherent weakness in the combat system while also overloading the server with aoe spasm that further make it hard to kill them.

Strategically, they can avoid most attacks by going into towers which also prevents the most effective counter attacks.

Most siege is useless at best because either you can't directly hit them or they simply shrug off the damage.

We need a better counter. For example what if there was a new siege weapon that exploded on impact, dealing increased damage for each additional player hit?

What if resource towers were destructible?

If groups want to ball up, I'm all for it. But there needs to be a better counter than sending 30 people to kill 12. I think ball groups might actually enjoy a better challenge but hey, easy ap is hard to turn down.

Any other (non trollish) ideas?

I usually play in a ball group and have for years. I'm assuming you're genuinely asking questions here so I'm going to answer them.

Yeah, we're not going anywhere. We adapt builds and setups for each and every update. Unless ZOS decided to entirely dismantle groups and the ability for players to be in the same area as alliance players we would just continue to adapt. And we do this because it's fun and - based on what we've been able to do - probably what the game was designed for. We're not abusing or exploiting anything and it is actually possible to either single target us if we screw up or even wipe the entire group.

Ironically, the very same tactics we use against zergs can effectively be used against us. The reason we typically win despite being outnumbered typically 2 or 3 to 1 at all times is because we have better communication, we are working as a team, and we're each playing our roles. If you run in a pick up group you're not going to have a min-maxed build. We do.

I will also tell you while most of the people in my current guild prefer guild v guild and would like to just play team against team without zergs on either side second best is running about a keep and taking on a perpetually respawning zerg. I know that sounds weird but in those cases the odds are stacked against us and if anyone in our group makes a mistake we will wipe. It's a fun challenge.

But this is where the accusations of us causing lag come in. We don't experience lag unless and until we come up against a zerg. But zergs experience lags for their entire run. Part of this is a fault in Zenimax's servers and part of this is because the game was apparently never meant for so many people. If you in a zerg can only light attack or spam detonation at us of course you're not going to win despite the lag having a similar effect on us. And that is boring for us. And we do wipe to lag ourselves. So we too would like to see the lag issues dealt with as well. Zergs are sort of drawn to us and that's when disconnects and lag start happening. So I get that if you're not in a ball group and only encountered them as part of a zerg coming together to hit the ball group you would associate the ball groups with lag, but ... it's not us. Genuinely.

We will grab scrolls and Volundrung or back keeps because that will draw a zerg or - even better - an enemy ball group to us. So you as a non-ballgroup player have a lot of choices in dealing with us. On a good day we can hold a keep and fight a zerg for hours, but if we're not all great we might wipe in a few minutes. We're human. You can actually use brute force and win. We're also going to try to control the terrain so if you have better tactics you'll pose more of a challenge for us. And we would like that. You *can* leave us alone if you don't have the group or set-up or ground to take us on because someone else will.

But the other thing is ball groups exist in every campaign and every alliance. You have several friendly ones wherever you play. Join if you will, but the other thing you can do is think strategically regarding what your alliance's ball group is currently doing. If we're up at a back keep running about in circles drawing a huge zerg, you can open gates, you can take Emperor keeps and so forth. Ball groups are a massive distraction for enemy zergs so use that to your advantage.

Last thing: I can't really speak for everyone but I'm not doing it for the AP. The AP is nice but it's much more fun getting to do player vs. player fights with a team.

Dat

Last thing: I can't really speak for everyone but I'm not doing it for the AP. The AP is nice but it's much more fun getting to do player vs. player fights with a team.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
couldnt have said it any better lol

maxjapank

tamanosou wrote: »

So I get that if you're not in a ball group and only encountered them as part of a zerg coming together to hit the ball group you would associate the ball groups with lag, but ... it's not us. Genuinely.

I played for years in some well-known groups. I've done the guild v guild fights and also done the guild v 2-3 times our number fights. I don't really have anything against organized groups. But my experience, more often than not, is that the majority of fights were always against pugs. And unless the pugs are highly skilled, they really don't stand much of a chance. Again, it's nothing against organized groups. It's just that there are not enough groups left and lowering populations have contributed to this as well. Not to mention the game being unplayable many times.

As for lag, I hate to say it, but some groups do cause lag. Zergs can as well. But I have experienced times when the game was very playable and then suddenly not. And when talked about it in zone, it was learned that "so and so guild" had just logged on or hopped on the server. It's happened one too many times to be coincidence.

Again. I'm not against groups. It really is the game company that needs to figure out a way to make the game playable for everyone. But sometimes I feel that game cannot handle a few of the guild groups that log on.

DrSlaughtr

Let me put it this way. The last thing a good ball group wants us for the opposition to log off. I've been on both sides of the buzz saw. I just think it would be nice if certain aspects of the ball group play style could be challenged without a zerg or another ball group.

Destructible towers would be my first go. My second choice would be a stronger siege equipment that can hurt stacked groups more than individuals.

master_vanargand

Greasytengu wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I often see Ballgroup using Blood Altar.
Moreover, Ballgroup uses 3-4 or more Blood Altar at the same time.

Why does Ballgroup do something seemingly useless?

[snip]

Blood altar has a very strong heal as its synergy and the healing from lifesteal really adds up.


Its no more server intensive than any other AOE ability, possibly less as it does not have to calculate the healing done. Minor lifesteal provides a flat 600 healing per tick. You can only have one instance of any major/minor buff on you at any time, so its not like the server has to calculate the healing from 3 different blood altars.


This blatant witch-huntery has to stop. Its honestly getting ridiculous, Nobody is deliberately causing lag, and furthermore, lag is detrimental to a group that tends to fight a larger number which is specifically what ball groups do, so why would they want to cause it?

Lag happens because the servers cant handle the load, because the anti cheat measures have created a data bottleneck, because the spaghetti coding.

Blood Altar is known as a very server-intensive skill.
It requires much more computation than a normal AoE skill.

You got any sources for that claim?

Read the following.

CrustyCroco wrote: »

As long as some of the AoE skills work as they do, I don't have much hope for a lot of performance improvements.
I know this is also ultimately a lot of assumptions, but at least there is some data to work with compared to other wild speculations of some forum-posts (addons, player behaviour etc.).

Taking Blood Altar as an example, cause i think it's the worst offender in this case:
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 28 meters
Cost: 4320 Health
Skill description
Sacrifice your life essence to conjure a fountain of blood to apply Minor Lifesteal to enemies in the area, healing you and your allies for 600 Health every 1 second when damaging them. Allies in the area can activate the Blood Funnel synergy, healing for 40% of their Maximum Health.

The Altar looks for the 6 closest enemies to apply the lifesteal debuff, every 0.5sec (!). After an enemy got hit with the "aura", they get the debuff applied on them and actually having 2 debuffs. This can be tested with cleanse for example -> 2 debuffs removed = more healing and also esologs shows 2 different lifesteal IDs and uptimes.
The Altar "ticks" every 0,5 seconds in a 28m radius, looking for the closest enemies constantly.

I tested the Altar in the first skyreach room, i think 12 mobs (maybe one more or less, doesn't really matter here tho), around 70 seconds and moving around, so different enemies were closest to the altar frequently. The "aura"-debuff got applied 912 times, switching enemies depending on which was closest to the altar placement. Same for the debuff itself, so together it was 1824 debuff refreshes.

The raw data for the esologs opened in word is ~240 pages with 2750 entries of the aura debuff and 1832 of the lifesteal debuff, together 4582 entries (that's ~65,5 entries per second). Cause the logs not only get updated, when a new effect is appplied, but also, when one is removed again. This shows a high amount of info that has to synced with the players client and the servers.

Example: IIRC ID 80020 is the actual debuff ID and 86304 the "aura" ID.


And this was only me casting the Altar and only 12 enemies.
Imagine 12 people using it for example, the debuffs would try to overwrite each other every 0,5seconds, which already would give an insane number of infos having to be synced.
Now imagine this in Cyrodiil in a big fight, where even more than 12 enemies are around.

Just this one skill is most likely a higher offender to data traffic than any player behaviour, may it be ballgroup, zerggroup or "solo" player in a zerg could cause.

EDIT: The synergy is not even included here, wouldn't be surprised if it also constantly checks the health of the friendly players in the area, if it's below 50% (or what was the right number again to show up?) to offer the synergy.


Excursion:
Looking at different AoE abilities shows they work in different ways.
Caltrops (only the debuff, damage gets applied to everyone inside of the AoE) for example has a lower range and if more than 6 people are standing inside of it, hits the enemies standing in it, which are closest to the center of the impact (kinda similar to altar, just that caltrops can be aimed and altar is dropped on the caster's position).

Graveyard is really weird, if more than 6 people are standing inside of it, it seems to hit (again only the debuff) the 6 people that got loaded within sight first, when entering the area. Not 100% sure on this, but it always hits the same 6 same targets, if they are inside of the skills area, additional targets will never be hit. Since it's a rather new skill compared to others, i think they already tried to reduce the data load by changing the way enemies are selected to get hit by the debuff, so it doesn't update all the time when enemies are moving a bit, not sure how much of improvement that does tho. Could as well be, that they just coded it different by "accident", new dev for example etc.

I have confirmed that this is correct.

Next is your turn.
You got any sources for your claim?

CrustyCroco

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I often see Ballgroup using Blood Altar.
Moreover, Ballgroup uses 3-4 or more Blood Altar at the same time.

Why does Ballgroup do something seemingly useless?

[snip]

Blood altar has a very strong heal as its synergy and the healing from lifesteal really adds up.


Its no more server intensive than any other AOE ability, possibly less as it does not have to calculate the healing done. Minor lifesteal provides a flat 600 healing per tick. You can only have one instance of any major/minor buff on you at any time, so its not like the server has to calculate the healing from 3 different blood altars.


This blatant witch-huntery has to stop. Its honestly getting ridiculous, Nobody is deliberately causing lag, and furthermore, lag is detrimental to a group that tends to fight a larger number which is specifically what ball groups do, so why would they want to cause it?

Lag happens because the servers cant handle the load, because the anti cheat measures have created a data bottleneck, because the spaghetti coding.

Blood Altar is known as a very server-intensive skill.
It requires much more computation than a normal AoE skill.

You got any sources for that claim?

Read the following.

CrustyCroco wrote: »

...

I have confirmed that this is correct.

Next is your turn.
You got any sources for your claim?

How are my assumptions about aoe skills any confirmation for other wild assumptions?
What i was trying to say with that is, that it doesn't really matter, how players behave in the game. As long as they "group up" - ballgroup, unorganised group, solo in zergs, whatever - any player action will put a lot of stress on the server, just because other people are around them, friendly or enemy. Maybe one playstyle a bit more than the other, but in the big picture of server performance, it might not even have a big impact, how the individual plays.
Without being a dev and having no tool to really see the data and stress on the servers, noone of us has the full knowledge of what the issue really is, so pointing fingers doesn't help us as the community to get improvements on server performance.
Yes, i suspect aoe skills and altar being one of those skills, that may be putting a bit more stress on the servers, but it's more about the combination of casted skills and number of players, some single target skills also require a lot of calculation (some also make aoe checks, they also have to check offensive and defensive stats, position of yourself and the enemy, some skills scale with range for example, etc).

I always compare lag to traffic jams on highways. Data might be rolling fine until some point is reached, where it starts clogging up, because it doesn't move harmoniously, most likely every time on primetime, where Cyro is populated the most. Sure, it doesn't help to have long vehicles (organised groups) trying to get through, but If the highway is already having issues transferring the traffic, whose "fault" is it?
But still, i'm not a dev and all these are just my assumptions based on what i learned about the mechanics in the game (which i think i tried to learn more about than the average forum user here tho).

Claiming, that some organised groups use 3 or 4 of the altar or other stuff to intentionally lag out enemies is really far fetched btw. At least it's not as far as mentioning cheats, which other people tend to do in other topics and whispers, as soon as they can't explain why they are losing.

AureleosRex

Solution to ball groups is simple.

Don't let their AOE stuff stack and limit synergies.

And limit the number of people that can receive buffs from sets. The person wearing the set and three others per group.

Mamba

AureleosRex wrote: »

Solution to ball groups is simple.

Don't let their AOE stuff stack and limit synergies.

And limit the number of people that can receive buffs from sets. The person wearing the set and three others per group.

You do realize that there are no sets that are giving buffs to group members currently. since all proc sets are disabled. As for synergies only 1 person can take each damage synergy and there is cooldown on when they can take it again.

I swear 90% of the people that want to complain about "ball groups" and suggest ways to counter them have no idea what you are talking about. If want Zos to buff siege damage all it will do is make the pug zergs a whole lot worse as they do not focus group healing and purging off dots from siege. The reason ball groups make living in siege so much easier is that we actually communicate with each other , don't stand in the same spot to get hit by 20 counter siege, and we actually purge off debuffs

Crown

PvP quality of combat improvements (I've been suggesting this at least once a year):

1. Change positive effects so that a player can only have one of each on them. 10 people casting radiating regen? Only one of them will tick at any given time. 6 people casting Vigor? Only one of them will tick at any given time. Each application overwrites the previous one. If 6 RRs are applied to the same person in the same second, only one of them sticks. 4 Illustrious on the ground in the same area? Only one's tick will apply to each person. The code is already there for named effects only applying once, make this work for heals too.

2. Change negative effects so that a player can only have one of each on them. 5 instances of burning applied at the same time? Only one should stick. Issues with 20+ negative effects and the insane healing capabilities from 2-3 players spamming cleanse are thus (mostly) resolved.

@ZOS_GinaBruno please pass the above on to the right people. It would make such a huge difference in Cyrodiil.

Now, regarding ball groups, that's 12 people each with their roles and responsibilities in a group. Nobody builds for their own ego, nobody builds for seeing their own numbers, they build for what's best for the group and for what the group needs in order to succeed. It's not always fun being the person who has to cast rapids every 3rd spell, or cleanse every second spell, or perhaps the necro healer who has to cast graveyards rather than actually heal so their meters put them dead last every time, but if that's what will let the group succeed, then that's what they do. For those people, the fun is in the group's success, and being social with friends in comms while fighting, not in seeing their kill counter numbers grow.

I've posted many guides, raid requirements, group compositions and the like, and I've seen groups of players who only knew to play for themselves increase their performance in groups to the point that they can be competitive with other ball groups after a few months of practice. Success in a ball group is 1/3 composition, 1/3 player skill in their role, and 1/3 shot calling (leadership). A group without all three will lose to similar numbers, and the better each of those factors is for the group, the more opponents they can take on.

Sanct16

Crown wrote: »

PvP quality of combat improvements (I've been suggesting this at least once a year):

1. Change positive effects so that a player can only have one of each on them. 10 people casting radiating regen? Only one of them will tick at any given time. 6 people casting Vigor? Only one of them will tick at any given time. Each application overwrites the previous one. If 6 RRs are applied to the same person in the same second, only one of them sticks. 4 Illustrious on the ground in the same area? Only one's tick will apply to each person. The code is already there for named effects only applying once, make this work for heals too.

2. Change negative effects so that a player can only have one of each on them. 5 instances of burning applied at the same time? Only one should stick. Issues with 20+ negative effects and the insane healing capabilities from 2-3 players spamming cleanse are thus (mostly) resolved.

And what exactly do you hope this would achieve in the end?

If hots are nerfed, groups will spam more blessing of restoration. Sure, HoTs are a bit more reliable in a way, but if you have 3 ppl spamming a 10k burst heal, it still puts out the same HPS, so given high enough HP it will be the same.

Loosing Cleanse heals also isn't a big deal and would be very welcome for any group I think as it makes removing the debuffs that you really want to remove much easier (Oils, etc).

Sandman929

Sanct16 wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

PvP quality of combat improvements (I've been suggesting this at least once a year):

1. Change positive effects so that a player can only have one of each on them. 10 people casting radiating regen? Only one of them will tick at any given time. 6 people casting Vigor? Only one of them will tick at any given time. Each application overwrites the previous one. If 6 RRs are applied to the same person in the same second, only one of them sticks. 4 Illustrious on the ground in the same area? Only one's tick will apply to each person. The code is already there for named effects only applying once, make this work for heals too.

2. Change negative effects so that a player can only have one of each on them. 5 instances of burning applied at the same time? Only one should stick. Issues with 20+ negative effects and the insane healing capabilities from 2-3 players spamming cleanse are thus (mostly) resolved.

And what exactly do you hope this would achieve in the end?

If hots are nerfed, groups will spam more blessing of restoration. Sure, HoTs are a bit more reliable in a way, but if you have 3 ppl spamming a 10k burst heal, it still puts out the same HPS, so given high enough HP it will be the same.

Loosing Cleanse heals also isn't a big deal and would be very welcome for any group I think as it makes removing the debuffs that you really want to remove much easier (Oils, etc).

Anyone who's ever run in a ball group knows that stacking hots and group purging is the greatest defensive strength of group play. But yes, I welcome the changes...I'm sure these great groups will do just as well trying to use blessing of restoration to the same effect.

People keep coming up with complicated solutions to ball groups....all that is needed is addressing stacking hots and group purging.

In fact, I'd love to see a ball group try the power of blessing of restoration without group purging right now. I'm sure the survivability is the same, right?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

PvP quality of combat improvements (I've been suggesting this at least once a year):

1. Change positive effects so that a player can only have one of each on them. 10 people casting radiating regen? Only one of them will tick at any given time. 6 people casting Vigor? Only one of them will tick at any given time. Each application overwrites the previous one. If 6 RRs are applied to the same person in the same second, only one of them sticks. 4 Illustrious on the ground in the same area? Only one's tick will apply to each person. The code is already there for named effects only applying once, make this work for heals too.

2. Change negative effects so that a player can only have one of each on them. 5 instances of burning applied at the same time? Only one should stick. Issues with 20+ negative effects and the insane healing capabilities from 2-3 players spamming cleanse are thus (mostly) resolved.

And what exactly do you hope this would achieve in the end?

If hots are nerfed, groups will spam more blessing of restoration. Sure, HoTs are a bit more reliable in a way, but if you have 3 ppl spamming a 10k burst heal, it still puts out the same HPS, so given high enough HP it will be the same.

Loosing Cleanse heals also isn't a big deal and would be very welcome for any group I think as it makes removing the debuffs that you really want to remove much easier (Oils, etc).

Anyone who's ever run in a ball group knows that stacking hots and group purging is the greatest defensive strength of group play. But yes, I welcome the changes...I'm sure these great groups will do just as well trying to use blessing of restoration to the same effect.

People keep coming up with complicated solutions to ball groups....all that is needed is addressing stacking hots and group purging.

In fact, I'd love to see a ball group try the power of blessing of restoration without group purging right now. I'm sure the survivability is the same, right?

Its pointless to try now because the other changes mentioned in the post such as 'not stacking debuffs' also aren't in effect.

You could also completely change other fundamental aspects of ESO gameplay. I'm not sure that doing so actually makes for a better game though.

DrSlaughtr

That's why I was thinking of something that could be added to the game rather than fundamentally changing existing code because that won't happen.

A true group buster siege would be great. And returning the destructible towers. Ball groups would adjust but wouldn't the challenge be welcomed?

Earthewen

TheEndBringer wrote: »

That's why I was thinking of something that could be added to the game rather than fundamentally changing existing code because that won't happen.

A true group buster siege would be great. And returning the destructible towers. Ball groups would adjust but wouldn't the challenge be welcomed?

One thing we are forgetting, I think, is that this PVP is designed specifically for 12 to 24 man groups. I'm not really sure why it has been slowly pushed to smaller and smaller groups. I miss the old days when we could have hundreds on screen all fighting at the same time with the fight able to go either way. We ended up in an ulti race to see who could CC the most and then hit with ulti's first.

Am I the only one who remembers the fun of the old days?

Lord_Draevan

The only way I can think of to reliably get counter ball groups would be to add a siege weapon or ability that insta-kills all players (regardless of blocking/health/gear/CP passives) if X number of players are within a Y radius when the siege or ability goes off. Number of players and radius to be determined by ZOS. That way you can still run in one if you want, but you'll be vulnerable.
Otherwise, the only reliable way to kill a ball group seems to be with another ball group.

Lord_Draevan

Earthewen wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

That's why I was thinking of something that could be added to the game rather than fundamentally changing existing code because that won't happen.

A true group buster siege would be great. And returning the destructible towers. Ball groups would adjust but wouldn't the challenge be welcomed?

One thing we are forgetting, I think, is that this PVP is designed specifically for 12 to 24 man groups. I'm not really sure why it has been slowly pushed to smaller and smaller groups. I miss the old days when we could have hundreds on screen all fighting at the same time with the fight able to go either way. We ended up in an ulti race to see who could CC the most and then hit with ulti's first.

Am I the only one who remembers the fun of the old days?

Remember when pop-lock meant 600 players, so a 3-way pop lock meant 1800 players, and Forward Camps had unlimited spawns and you could rez to the camp from anywhere on the map? Crazy times, the Beta/early access/shortly after launch PvP.

Earthewen

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

The only way I can think of to reliably get rid of ball groups would be to add a siege weapon or ability that insta-kills all players (regardless of blocking/health/gear/CP passives) if X number of players are within a Y radius when the siege or ability goes off. Number of players and radius to be determined by ZOS.
Otherwise, the only reliable way to kill a ball group seems to be with another ball group.

You aren't too far off with that. When we had 24 man raids that were organized, the ball groups had a run for their money. Not all 24 mans were ball groups and not all ball groups are 24 man raids. They do different things and behave differently. I used to love coming in with a 24-man and killing ball groups. They were sometimes still a challenge because of different ways of fighting between the two, but it was fun when things could go either way. We started going wrong when everything because an "arms race" instead of relying on imagination to come up with new tactics and strategies.

I guess what I'm saying is if you want ball groups to start losing more (at least I think that's what we are talking about), put the 24-man raid back into play. It will give them a challenge again.

Earthewen

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

That's why I was thinking of something that could be added to the game rather than fundamentally changing existing code because that won't happen.

A true group buster siege would be great. And returning the destructible towers. Ball groups would adjust but wouldn't the challenge be welcomed?

One thing we are forgetting, I think, is that this PVP is designed specifically for 12 to 24 man groups. I'm not really sure why it has been slowly pushed to smaller and smaller groups. I miss the old days when we could have hundreds on screen all fighting at the same time with the fight able to go either way. We ended up in an ulti race to see who could CC the most and then hit with ulti's first.

Am I the only one who remembers the fun of the old days?

Remember when pop-lock meant 600 players, so a 3-way pop lock meant 1800 players, and Forward Camps had unlimited spawns and you could rez to the camp from anywhere on the map? Crazy times, the Beta/early access/shortly after launch PvP.

I actually do miss those days. Hella fun back then. We also played without lag before they changed the game due to gold spammers. That little thing changed everything from then on out. I would love to see us return to the days before the "arms race" and the day of the Meta build.

Lord_Draevan

Earthewen wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

That's why I was thinking of something that could be added to the game rather than fundamentally changing existing code because that won't happen.

A true group buster siege would be great. And returning the destructible towers. Ball groups would adjust but wouldn't the challenge be welcomed?

One thing we are forgetting, I think, is that this PVP is designed specifically for 12 to 24 man groups. I'm not really sure why it has been slowly pushed to smaller and smaller groups. I miss the old days when we could have hundreds on screen all fighting at the same time with the fight able to go either way. We ended up in an ulti race to see who could CC the most and then hit with ulti's first.

Am I the only one who remembers the fun of the old days?

Remember when pop-lock meant 600 players, so a 3-way pop lock meant 1800 players, and Forward Camps had unlimited spawns and you could rez to the camp from anywhere on the map? Crazy times, the Beta/early access/shortly after launch PvP.

I actually do miss those days. Hella fun back then. We also played without lag before they changed the game due to gold spammers. That little thing changed everything from then on out. I would love to see us return to the days before the "arms race" and the day of the Meta build.

Yeah, that first 90-day Wabbajack campaign was amazing.

Jaraal

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

The only way I can think of to reliably get counter ball groups would be to add a siege weapon or ability that insta-kills all players (regardless of blocking/health/gear/CP passives) if X number of players are within a Y radius when the siege or ability goes off. Number of players and radius to be determined by ZOS. That way you can still run in one if you want, but you'll be vulnerable.
Otherwise, the only reliable way to kill a ball group seems to be with another ball group.

I don't think Insta-kill is the answer. More like having a siege with a damage multiplier that increases by the number of players in the AOE radius, similar to how the Inevitable Detonation and Proximity Detonation skills work (+25% more damage for each player hit) would be fair and encourage people to spread out.

Earthewen wrote: »

You aren't too far off with that. When we had 24 man raids that were organized, the ball groups had a run for their money. Not all 24 mans were ball groups and not all ball groups are 24 man raids. They do different things and behave differently. I used to love coming in with a 24-man and killing ball groups. They were sometimes still a challenge because of different ways of fighting between the two, but it was fun when things could go either way. We started going wrong when everything because an "arms race" instead of relying on imagination to come up with new tactics and strategies.

I guess what I'm saying is if you want ball groups to start losing more (at least I think that's what we are talking about), put the 24-man raid back into play. It will give them a challenge again.

24 man groups were the most fun I've ever had in Cyrodiil. And it certainly didn't improve performance to remove them, like they imagined it would. All it did was make group leaders less likely to add unknowns since the cost of adding potentially unskilled players is now much higher and has more impact on success. Every day there are still people complaining in zone chat about not being able to get a group.

Instead of finding ways to make AvAvA more fun, ZOS seems to prefer cutting things out, even when those changes end up having little to no positive impact on performance.

Faded

Earthewen wrote: »

One thing we are forgetting, I think, is that this PVP is designed specifically for 12 to 24 man groups. I'm not really sure why it has been slowly pushed to smaller and smaller groups.

You're not? Performance (the same reason everybody hates "faction stacks" now) and the repeated lowering of the population cap.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

what stops you running 24m groups now? you just need to make 2 groups and run together.
Also there were never any 24m ball groups at that size its more of a zerg group regardless of the tactics used.

Ball groups are intended to specifically fight those types of groups too not become them