Unbalance between armor weights

Greek_Hellspawn

This is mostly from pvp perspective.
The thing i would like to discuss is to why does light and heavy armor get penalties while medium doesn't.
I know heavy is overpeforming and most use heavy in pvp, but there is no reason to give light penalties while medium gets no penalties but it gets bonuses.
Also medium has active defensive passives like reduced dodge roll while light only has spell resistance how is light supposed to survive in pvp with increased block cost?
I would like to hear experienced mag pvpers thoughts.

Edit: forgot to mention that medium also gets reduced block cost.....

catnamedwill

consider that medium had its weapon damage nerf to a max of 14% from 15%, while light armor had its penetration buffed from max 4.8k to max 6.5k

[Edit to remove bait]]

Greek_Hellspawn

catnamedwill wrote: »

consider that medium had its weapon damage nerf to a max of 14% from 15%, while light armor had its penetration buffed from max 4.8k to max 6.5k

Yeah but i am not comparing damage i am purely comparing survivability medium has more armor overall more reduced dodge cost, what does light have besides crappy shield and spell resist?

Edit: not to mention weapon dmg also affects your heals while penetration doesn't, i know pen does more dmg but it doest affects your heals at all.

Araneae6537

catnamedwill wrote: »

consider that medium had its weapon damage nerf to a max of 14% from 15%, while light armor had its penetration buffed from max 4.8k to max 6.5k

I think that it would feel better as well as make more sense if the penalties to light armor were instead added as bonuses to the other two. For instance, it makes no sense that light armor would make you more vulnerable to melee attacks than wearing no armor at all but it does make sense for medium and heavy armor to provide better protection. Same with damage done by bash. The cost of block is an odd one; I would think you would instead block less damage than in heavier armor, but is that not already reflected in the armor bonus itself? Either way, again it would make more sense to make it a bonus to medium and heavy armor than a penalty to light.

The only armor penalties that make sense are those that you might expect to incur with the weight — penalties to speed, stealth and dodge roll in heavy armor for instance. The vulnerability to magicka damage doesn’t make sense to me, but I would also expect magical protection to be in the form of magicka as well — wards, magic shields, enchantments, etc.

WrathOfInnos

catnamedwill wrote: »

consider that medium had its weapon damage nerf to a max of 14% from 15%, while light armor had its penetration buffed from max 4.8k to max 6.5k

That’s not the whole story, any Light Armor user in 5-1-1 or 5-0-2 dropped from 4884 Spell Pen to 4695. The new system made 6 or 7 Light more competitive, but you give up Magicka and Health from Undaunted and Heavy Armor passives by going that route.

7 medium is still very close to the old 7 medium, but 5-1-1 (uncommon) or 6-1 for Stamina builds are looking weaker, giving only 10 or 12% weapon damage.

Sangwyne

Someone clearly has an agenda. Medium has zero penalties to Light's 3 and Heavy's 4, more bonuses than Heavy despite zero penalties, and passives like 3% reduced block cost per piece that Heavy should have gotten while also having damage, sustain, mobility, and stealth, none of which Heavy ever had access to. Why does Light armor increase physical damage taken when it already took the most physical damage taken by virtue of granting the least armor? Why does Medium armor increase Sprint speed and not Light, the lighter and faster choice? Why does Medium have zero penalties in the first place? This entire thing reeks of favoritism, Stamina builds were already the default choice and now will be even more so, and remember, people outside PvP wear armor too; please stop penalizing tanks and Support roles in PvE because of balance concerns in PvP.

Luckylancer

Medium dont have con's because medium have less pro's.

Light have a solid stamina bonuses that medium will be envy of. Cheaper break free, sprint and roll dodge will buff their stamina sustain. Their core combat skills are discounted. The problem about LA is they already had a built in pysical weakness. 1% perpiece is overkill imo. When enemy look at me, I die. I wont wear light armor because of this.

HA just needs -1% damage per 2 pieces and some of their current weaknesses buffed to buff PvE tanks.

Araneae6537 wrote: »

catnamedwill wrote: »

consider that medium had its weapon damage nerf to a max of 14% from 15%, while light armor had its penetration buffed from max 4.8k to max 6.5k

I think that it would feel better as well as make more sense if the penalties to light armor were instead added as bonuses to the other two. For instance, it makes no sense that light armor would make you more vulnerable to melee attacks than wearing no armor at all but it does make sense for medium and heavy armor to provide better protection. Same with damage done by bash. The cost of block is an odd one; I would think you would instead block less damage than in heavier armor, but is that not already reflected in the armor bonus itself? Either way, again it would make more sense to make it a bonus to medium and heavy armor than a penalty to light.

The only armor penalties that make sense are those that you might expect to incur with the weight — penalties to speed, stealth and dodge roll in heavy armor for instance. The vulnerability to magicka damage doesn’t make sense to me, but I would also expect magical protection to be in the form of magicka as well — wards, magic shields, enchantments, etc.

-Light armor make you more resistant to physical atack compared to going naked.
-Heavy armors do not protect well againts magical atacks in gaming and D&D culture.

Sangwyne wrote: »

Someone clearly has an agenda. Medium has zero penalties to Light's 3 and Heavy's 4, more bonuses than Heavy despite zero penalties, and passives like 3% reduced block cost per piece that Heavy should have gotten while also having damage, sustain, mobility, and stealth, none of which Heavy ever had access to. Why does Light armor increase physical damage taken when it already took the most physical damage taken by virtue of granting the least armor? Why does Medium armor increase Sprint speed and not Light, the lighter and faster choice? Why does Medium have zero penalties in the first place? This entire thing reeks of favoritism, Stamina builds were already the default choice and now will be even more so, and remember, people outside PvP wear armor too; please stop penalizing tanks and Support roles in PvE because of balance concerns in PvP.

Are you kidding? Since when count of penalties matters? And what is the agenda? [snip]

-Medium have better innate damage, mobility and stealth than heavy. Heavy have better block and midigation. Boht have sustain in a diffrent way. You expected heavy to be as dodgly as medium on topo of that all that midigation?
-LA instantly die to pysical damage but this is not the case for PvE. They buffed PvE healths and mag toon always had better survivability in group setings thx to their range. Also LA have cheaper sprint bonus, not as good as medium's but it is still there.
-Medium have less pros.
-Wait, tanks and Support roles? Healer

[Edited to remove Conspiracy Theories]

lucky_Sage

Zos also makes a lot change for mag builds and player think the same that all mag builds are range.
Magdk and magplar are melee. Most mag heavy sets are sub par compared stam sets. Also stam just deals more dmg over all so heavy is less penalty than for mag. Magdks need light armor to have a chance to compete with dmg unless they go full procs but get zero extra survival for being range but all the penalties of it

forzajuve212

Medium armor has

- No penalties (while heavy and light both have penalties such as increased damage taken)
- Major Evasion (20% reduced damage from AOE, or 2x Major Protection). By comparison, unstoppable is an awful ability used by no one in PvP, and annulment is near unusable except on a mag sorc due to its puny size.
- Decreased block cost (light armor has increased block cost, so stam builds can block more than light armor builds)
- Dodge roll gives 2% reduced aoe damage taken per piece of medium armor (if you run 5 medium and dodge, you have 30% REDUCED AOE DAMAGE WITH EVASION!)
- The increase in weapon and spell damage across the game disproportionality benefitted stam over mag builds, as medium armor has a % based buffed with weapon damage. Light armor gives a flat pen number, so it remained unaffected by the change, rendering the increase in raw stats more beneficial for stam.

Anything else I'm forgetting? How are these not sharp pros? Why can medium armor allow you to block, dodge roll, and mitigate raw flat damage (via evasion)?

SshadowSscale

Honestly the 1 precent physical damage taken for light is overkill.... you can now sneeze on someone and a light armor wearer somewhere next to him will die

Sangwyne wrote: »

Someone clearly has an agenda. Medium has zero penalties to Light's 3 and Heavy's 4, more bonuses than Heavy despite zero penalties, and passives like 3% reduced block cost per piece that Heavy should have gotten while also having damage, sustain, mobility, and stealth, none of which Heavy ever had access to. Why does Light armor increase physical damage taken when it already took the most physical damage taken by virtue of granting the least armor? Why does Medium armor increase Sprint speed and not Light, the lighter and faster choice? Why does Medium have zero penalties in the first place? This entire thing reeks of favoritism, Stamina builds were already the default choice and now will be even more so, and remember, people outside PvP wear armor too; please stop penalizing tanks and Support roles in PvE because of balance concerns in PvP.

What does the armor bonusses and penalties have to do with pvp???? Honestly you all just love to blame pvp so much.... we never asked for this and I would be more than happy if they removed it.... I do however recall a pve player asking for this because of how armor in skyrim had bonusses and penalties..... maybe look to your own crowd for once instead of just blaming the otherside for something they did not even ask for in the first place

master_vanargand

If there are big advantages, there are also disadvantages.
That is game balance.

Beardimus

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

This is mostly from pvp perspective.
The thing i would like to discuss is to why does light and heavy armor get penalties while medium doesn't.
I know heavy is overpeforming and most use heavy in pvp, but there is no reason to give light penalties while medium gets no penalties but it gets bonuses.
Also medium has active defensive passives like reduced dodge roll while light only has spell resistance how is light supposed to survive in pvp with increased block cost?
I would like to hear experienced mag pvpers thoughts.

Edit: forgot to mention that medium also gets reduced block cost.....

I'm yet to test as on console but @Greek_Hellspawn in terms of survival they reduced roll dodge and break free for Light Armour no?

Roll dodge is my secondary defence for sure as a light armour user my stamina going further is a big deal. I'm looking forward to the changes, but will feedback after I've tested it

As others said on damage I doubt anyone will roll 7 light in PvP for the pen given the loss in Tri stat.

rbfrgsp

Medium was underperforming so they recalibrated the other sets, using medium as the control setting.

Xargas13

Personally I went heavy, I don't heave Streak or any other means of escape so I was dying rather quickly and not doing enough damage, melees always using gap closer and were finishing me off. While in heavy it is harder against sorcs, since their burst is insane and I take more damage from magic attacks, but like more then half of BGs are melees, so I'm better off with heavy, as I can survive and get some kills.

And I noticed that despite what others say, tanks didn't go away, I often see it in death matches, group of those tanks engage in a brawl and no one can kill anyone, they just go on and on endlessly till someone out of stamina, can't heal, dies. Heavy wasn't the problem even, some abilities just overturned, it's like that healing nerf in Greymoor, they did a flat nerf and didn't consider that some healing abilities weren't over performing.... Very lazy work IMO.

Greek_Hellspawn

Luckylancer wrote: »

Medium dont have con's because medium have less pro's.

Each piece of Medium Armor does the following:
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 1%
Reduces the cost of Sneak by 5%
Reduces the cost of Block by 3%
Reduces damage taken from Area of Effect attacks by 2% for 2 seconds after you use Roll Dodge
Increases Movement Speed by 2% while immune to crowd control

Each piece of Light Armor does the following: Reduces damage taken from Magical attacks by 1%
Reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 3%
Reduces the Movement Speed penalty of Sneak by 5%
Reduces the cost of Break Free by 5%
Reduces the cost of Bash by 3%

The way i see it medium has more than enough bonuses to justify have penalties.

Greek_Hellspawn

master_vanargand wrote: »

If there are big advantages, there are also disadvantages.
That is game balance.

Yeah but the problem is that medium has only advantages and none disadvantages so this is not balance.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

The only real imbalance is that light armor are suppose to be using shields to be able to compete in melee range, but shields stack off healthy not magicka like it should be and used to be. So now LA have no clear way to mitigate melee range damage. In away this us zos saying no melee range for LA and you need to adjust your mindset.

Tommy_The_Gun

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

The only real imbalance is that light armor are suppose to be using shields to be able to compete in melee range, but shields stack off healthy not magicka like it should be and used to be.

As far as I can tell, shields used to scale with max magicka in the past, but they changed that as it was causing huge imbalance, as you could spec everything into max magicka & spell dmg and it would not only boost your offensive potential, but also defensive potenial, resulting in a "ultra tanky" dps build.

Luede

It's funny, medium armor is OP, because there are no penaltys, but most people play heavy...

Jayserix

The problem is that they can't balance PvE and PvP at the same time, it's just not possible. That's the only constant for every single MMO : You can't balance it : dungeons, raids, large scale pvp, solo pvp, small scale pvp ...

Luede wrote: »

It's funny, medium armor is OP, because there are no penaltys, but most people play heavy...

You have zero evidence of that.

xaraan

I honestly don't get some of the armor changes at all.

We went from 5 pcs needed, to no longer needing them for passives, but we still need 5 pc b/c of set weights or to use the active skills in the armor skill lines. That's just annoying and reeks of a system that was redesigned as they don't mesh together well anymore from a concept standpoint. All the actives should work if we aren't going with the 5 pc requirements anymore, they should just work based on the amount of pieces you have slotted.

And I don't get the 'takes increased damage' portions of the armors at all. First of all heavy should be about mitigation, so the fact they take additional damage is a bit goofy. But it's somewhat easy to deal with because you are already high in damage mit at that point. Light armor makes even less sense to me. Armors already built in damage mitigation/or lack thereof with their base mit stats. Adding another on top seems redundant and a recipe for something that will not mix well in the future. The whole stat line is unnecessary and benefits stam builds in pvp, where they are already meta. LA mit the least, medium in the middle and heavy at the top - no need for additional damage taken modifiers.

And the penalties to heavy seemed too severe. It's an effort to curb the heavy meta in pvp, but it only curbs a couple playstyles in pvp that weren't even a huge deal to begin with and doesn't really address the bigger heavy armor stamboi meta. Making heavy about mitigating damage and less about doing damage by adding a maim to heavy would have solved more than the current changes did. Seems like now all that happened was it annoyed PvE tanks.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

The only real imbalance is that light armor are suppose to be using shields to be able to compete in melee range, but shields stack off healthy not magicka like it should be and used to be.

As far as I can tell, shields used to scale with max magicka in the past, but they changed that as it was causing huge imbalance, as you could spec everything into max magicka & spell dmg and it would not only boost your offensive potential, but also defensive potenial, resulting in a "ultra tanky" dps build.

Yes I know, that's the problem with two options... either shield could let you stand toe to toe or they are too weak and you get chuncked. Its simply a zero or a one, there is not a third option. Now cp has shield increase but use those and you can't have dps increases.... players have to accept that they can't always have it both ways and that's what infuriates most simple minded folks.

The magdk should not spec full damage sets and cp if they as a class need to get up close.

AinSoph

So for people who don't know the context of why Light makes you take more damage than just being naked, it is assumed that the enemy will pen cap/over pen your resistances so you just take that -% marital damage done with no armor rating.

Scardan

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

If there are big advantages, there are also disadvantages.
That is game balance.

Yeah but the problem is that medium has only advantages and none disadvantages so this is not balance.

"Medium has less advantages", so its kinda balance.

Greek_Hellspawn

Scardan wrote: »

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

If there are big advantages, there are also disadvantages.
That is game balance.

Yeah but the problem is that medium has only advantages and none disadvantages so this is not balance.

"Medium has less advantages", so its kinda balance.

Wrong. Just count the bonuses yourself.

Each piece of Medium Armor does the following:
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 1%
Reduces the cost of Sneak by 5%
Reduces the cost of Block by 3%
Reduces damage taken from Area of Effect attacks by 2% for 2 seconds after you use Roll Dodge
Increases Movement Speed by 2% while immune to crowd control

Each piece of Light Armor does the following: Reduces damage taken from Magical attacks by 1%
Reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 3%
Reduces the Movement Speed penalty of Sneak by 5%
Reduces the cost of Break Free by 5%
Reduces the cost of Bash by 3%

I am no math god, but i count the same bonuses for both medium and light (both have 5).

Zer0_CooL

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As far as I can tell, shields used to scale with max magicka in the past, but they changed that as it was causing huge imbalance, as you could spec everything into max magicka & spell dmg and it would not only boost your offensive potential, but also defensive potenial, resulting in a "ultra tanky" dps build.

You mean like i can put everything in stam and wpn dmg to boost my ofensive potential and my defensive potential (vigor rolldodge)?

Jayserix

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As far as I can tell, shields used to scale with max magicka in the past, but they changed that as it was causing huge imbalance, as you could spec everything into max magicka & spell dmg and it would not only boost your offensive potential, but also defensive potenial, resulting in a "ultra tanky" dps build.

You mean like i can put everything in stam and wpn dmg to boost my ofensive potential and my defensive potential (vigor rolldodge)?

Amen, no wonder why 60% of all AD population on PC EU (CP) is Rollerblade®

Edit : This took us back to the good ol' WoW days of pre 1.4 patch with 200-300 agi rogues

Sangwyne

SshadowSscale wrote: »

What does the armor bonusses and penalties have to do with pvp???? Honestly you all just love to blame pvp so much.... we never asked for this

Gee, I dunno.

Daemonai wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets. [snip]

Heavy Armor Is Too Strong
Heavy armour buffs taking in from meta to only viable option
Screw this heavy armor tank 5 minute 1v1 PvP meta
Heavy Combined With Malacath Seems Too Strong With The Upcoming Armor Changes
Surely ZOS can’t think people want another heavy armour, Malacath, proc set, health based heal meta?
Heavy Armor, 1H/Shield, High Health meta builds in PvP

Anyway, penalties make no sense from a PvE gameplay perspective, players don't compete against other armor types as in PvP. Tanks provide support, you aren't competing against them for DPS, and Light armor taking more physical damage is absurd when it already takes the most physical damage. I don't know of a single player that would want their tank in a dungeon to suddenly move more slowly, be unable to sneak past mobs in order to speedrun, have no stamina to roll dodge attacks, or take more incoming magic damage. Quite the opposite; no player wants penalties to other armor types in PvE and there's literally no reason to have them anyway. The penalties should be done through Battle Spirit and exclusive to PvP.

Scardan

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

Scardan wrote: »

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

If there are big advantages, there are also disadvantages.
That is game balance.

Yeah but the problem is that medium has only advantages and none disadvantages so this is not balance.

"Medium has less advantages", so its kinda balance.

Wrong. Just count the bonuses yourself.

Each piece of Medium Armor does the following:
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 1%
Reduces the cost of Sneak by 5%
Reduces the cost of Block by 3%
Reduces damage taken from Area of Effect attacks by 2% for 2 seconds after you use Roll Dodge
Increases Movement Speed by 2% while immune to crowd control

Each piece of Light Armor does the following: Reduces damage taken from Magical attacks by 1%
Reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 3%
Reduces the Movement Speed penalty of Sneak by 5%
Reduces the cost of Break Free by 5%
Reduces the cost of Bash by 3%

I am no math god, but i count the same bonuses for both medium and light (both have 5).

Just remember that all of this should have an “Rock Paper Scissors” effect and look at all the advantages of armor in general. Counting bonuses alone will get you nowhere.

SshadowSscale

Sangwyne wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

What does the armor bonusses and penalties have to do with pvp???? Honestly you all just love to blame pvp so much.... we never asked for this

Gee, I dunno.

Daemonai wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets. [snip]

Heavy Armor Is Too Strong
Heavy armour buffs taking in from meta to only viable option
Screw this heavy armor tank 5 minute 1v1 PvP meta
Heavy Combined With Malacath Seems Too Strong With The Upcoming Armor Changes
Surely ZOS can’t think people want another heavy armour, Malacath, proc set, health based heal meta?
Heavy Armor, 1H/Shield, High Health meta builds in PvP

Anyway, penalties make no sense from a PvE gameplay perspective, players don't compete against other armor types as in PvP. Tanks provide support, you aren't competing against them for DPS, and Light armor taking more physical damage is absurd when it already takes the most physical damage. I don't know of a single player that would want their tank in a dungeon to suddenly move more slowly, be unable to sneak past mobs in order to speedrun, have no stamina to roll dodge attacks, or take more incoming magic damage. Quite the opposite; no player wants penalties to other armor types in PvE and there's literally no reason to have them anyway. The penalties should be done through Battle Spirit and exclusive to PvP.

do you think we want the penalties?.... light armor was already being slaughtered before this and now is just a joke

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh. I still run 5 pcs heavy...

I mean, I pair it with 1 medium & 1 light, so not much has changed.

I have been testing running 5 pcs medium and oddly it did not worked for me. Idk, it seems that it wasn't as beneficial. Everyone says to run medium... so I did, and it feels like medium is overrated... I can do far better in heavy. Maybe it is just my playstyle or something. Idk. Maybe it gets different if one would go full (7 pcs) medium, but I think it is not worth loosing Undaunted passives, and loosing a lot of versatility.

It seems as if medium armour was this "in between" spot, so it has some benefits, but those are not good enough, so it does not have penalties either.

What I am trying to say is... Imagine if light & medium were universal, and they were boosting both mag & stam builds. Light armour, all of the sudden would be top pick for stamina builds, and most likely still for magicka builds. It simply has stronger "core" passives than medium has (so no wonder it has penalties).

Besides, if you think about it, heavy & light armour penalties can be mitigated / reduced. If I run 5 pcs heavy, then I take 5% more magicka dmg. If I also run 1 pcs light, this gets reduced to 4%. Additionally, heavy Armour passives provide bonus to physical & spell resistance, so it kinda reduces the penalty further. And finally - we have CP, so you can reduce armour drawbacks even more. Even the sneak penalty & detection.