Fake tanks and toxic players
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Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zos cannot fix this problem without a major overhaul to both the group finder and the dungeon design.even the smallest flicker of light can overcome any amount of darkness
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of ESO REVAMP Ideas0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »
Not a valid comparison. It is more like stop talking in a way it hurts and talk in a way it doesn't hurt.
The problem exists because of DPS queue takes too long. This is because there are more DPS players in the game and the large amount of low DPS in random groups thus forcing real tanks to not participate in group finders.
It is hard to solve that without increasing the queue time even longer. The system that we have right now allows people to play any role they want and be successful. And pre-made groups allow players that don't want a random group/can't carry fake roles.
I have been playing since beta, I understand about long queue times.
It’s not that hard of a problem to solve. Just make support roles fun to play. Imagine making tanking and healing as fun as dps. Stop nerfing support roles and improve their QOL.
Suddenly there won’t be a support role shortage and fake tanks will no longer be an issue.4 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DarkKnight wrote: »If we apparently can't stop people from moonlighting for roles they aren't suited for, can we please at least do something about their toxicity? CP150 player admits he isn't a real tank at the start of DLC dungeon, but then also can't DPS. After wiping several times, I asked him why he even queued at all. This was his colorful response to being called out:
[snip]
[snip]
That's just not an okay way to behave in group.
Zos, if you are going to do basically nothing to stop people from queuing in bad faith, at least manage their otherwise toxic attitudes. I pay to have fun, not to put up with this kind of non-sense.
[Edit to remove images for Profanity and Naming and Shamnig.]
The solution is to make it harder to be a tank and still do damage. If you want to do damage, you should be squishy. If you want to be tanky, you don't do damage. That will end fake tanks really fast.1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »
The solution is to make it harder to be a tank and still do damage. If you want to do damage, you should be squishy. If you want to be tanky, you don't do damage. That will end fake tanks really fast.
That will make tanks a lot more rarer.
Tanks don’t exist in a vacuum. When the dungeon is over the player still needs to do quests, harvest nodes, etc. if tanks can’t kill that lion near a harvest node. No one will play one.9 -
Ryath_Waylander✭✭✭✭✭
✭StarOfElyon wrote: »
The solution is to make it harder to be a tank and still do damage. If you want to do damage, you should be squishy. If you want to be tanky, you don't do damage. That will end fake tanks really fast.
How would you stop a DD from queuing in the tank role though? A low HP threshold perhaps?0 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
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Have recently been thinking about this, and my suggestion would be to change stats: Health gives -2% overall damage output per point, stamina/magicka give +2% overall damage taken per point. (Maybe cap it off at a maximum of 80%)StarOfElyon wrote: »
The solution is to make it harder to be a tank and still do damage. If you want to do damage, you should be squishy. If you want to be tanky, you don't do damage. That will end fake tanks really fast.
PS: My tanks do 1.5k DPS, and this has never ever been an issue in any dungeon!
PPS: Would like to have dual spec, or maybe the new companions will compensate for DPS. For overland content!Edited by Sarannah on February 19, 2021 10:31PM1 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ryath_Waylander wrote: »
How would you stop a DD from queuing in the tank role though? A low HP threshold perhaps?
It's going to be obvious the moment they get rocked by a hard attack that it's not going to work out for them. Right now, players are just tanky enough not to die quickly and still do damage. It's too easy to burn through a dungeon like that. Remove the ability to do damage with a tank set-up and it will stop.1 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
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That will make tanks a lot more rarer.
Tanks don’t exist in a vacuum. When the dungeon is over the player still needs to do quests, harvest nodes, etc. if tanks can’t kill that lion near a harvest node. No one will play one.
I made a tank just to tank. I have a healer to heal. I can still swap gear and do some overland but I'm not going to do it quickly. Everyone wants to be DD, I get it, but it can be rewarding to play other roles. Eventually, I'll probably have two alts per role. Not just a bunch of DD characters. That's what people will have to do if they want to play an MMO.1 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭Ryath_Waylander wrote: »
How would you stop a DD from queuing in the tank role though? A low HP threshold perhaps?
For the dungeon finder ZOS could add a status effect to the tank role when queuing. The first function checks to see if the player has a 1hand+shield and/or frost staff equipped on either skill bar before allowing them to enter the queue.
The next function it could disable slotting any other weapon types or combinations other than those two and place a 50% damage output debuff on the frost staff while in the dungeon and in the tank role. Again, this would only be for entering as a tank via the dungeon finder.1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FStarOfElyon wrote: »
I made a tank just to tank. I have a healer to heal. I can still swap gear and do some overland but I'm not going to do it quickly. Everyone wants to be DD, I get it, but it can be rewarding to play other roles. Eventually, I'll probably have two alts per role. Not just a bunch of DD characters. That's what people will have to do if they want to play an MMO.
Tanks need skill points. Basically your path would limit those points from dungeons/trials and leveling only (and the crown store). While dps will still be able to get them from all sources.
“They can always role an alt” is also saying that people who role support have to level at least two characters for dps’s one. This does nothing to increase the amount of players doing those roles, and will maintain the “fake tank” problem.
Making life burdensome for support roles is not the answer.
So, all that or they can just increase the dps of support roles and make them fun to play.1 -
heartburnkid✭✭✭I feel ya. I love fake Tanks in 4 mans, since they’re not necessarily needed. I’d prefer the quick burn. If you can’t burn and rolled in as a fake tank, you get the boot quickly. I made a REAL tank and get ‘ty lord a real tank’ comments when they see my sword and board pulling bosses away.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ryath_Waylander wrote: »
How would you stop a DD from queuing in the tank role though? A low HP threshold perhaps?
That'd be a bit awkward for my MagSorc DD/tank who holds aggro with Inner Fire in normal dungeons...
And that's really the problem. ZOS could probably require that players slot a taunt skill as a tank, but nobody can force the player to use that taunt.
That being said, my full tank MagDK wears Ebon Armory for her random dungeon runs, which is an instant visual saying "Yes, I'm an actual tank."2 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Have recently been thinking about this, and my suggestion would be to change stats: Health gives -2% overall damage output per point, stamina/magicka give +2% overall damage taken per point. (Maybe cap it off at a maximum of 80%)
PS: My tanks do 1.5k DPS, and this has never ever been an issue in any dungeon!
PPS: Would like to have dual spec, or maybe the new companions will compensate for DPS. For overland content!
WHY is the solution to fake Tank DPSers who are making the game suck for all people in DF queue and jumping the line, ALWAYS oh just nerf TF out of Tanks even more. By making them do even less than no damage.
INSTEAD fake tanks would end immediately if anyone who queues as a tank and uses any weapon other than SnB or Frost staff or not wearing 5 peice heavy, their damage is decreases by 75%. These fake tank being reduced to 25% damage would never queue as tanks or would be forced to actually be a tank.
I mentioned a long time ago there should be a separate queue or role for people who only want to do speed runs, where there can be essentially 4 solo players who just want to do the dungeon fast and no one has a specific role. This has massive benefit for everyone, speed runners could all group together for quick runs, and people who like 3 roles can play like intended without fake tanks.4 -
McGordon✭✭✭If you would be better dps or what ever u are, then you would not have problem with fake tanks or toxic players. I don't careif i have fake tank or healer for normal dung. Can carry group without problem. Actually most of the time I even hope people will fake tank so we can get extra dps ans clear faster1
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Merforum✭✭✭✭✭If you would be better dps or what ever u are, then you would not have problem with fake tanks or toxic players. I don't careif i have fake tank or healer for normal dung. Can carry group without problem. Actually most of the time I even hope people will fake tank so we can get extra dps ans clear faster
Many players who have good tanks can also switch to solo gear and clear any normal dungeon. The problem and why we see this thread continuously pop up, is because completely toxic DPS dudes and PVPers are jumping the queue by fake tanking, which;
1. is a slap in the face to all the real DPS (bad or good) who patiently wait in the queue
2. don't do ANY actual tanking once they get in the queue
3. don't help beginner players at all learning mechs, finishing quests, getting fkn chests for gear and even sometimes run so far ahead they kill a required boss which fks up the whole dungeon for whoever didn't get there in time
4. most of the time they actually suck too, so can't DPS OR TANK, but the do run past all the mobs which attack everyone else who are behind and then act like *** when they get killed by the boss and ask people where were you
5. BTW normal dungeons are for under 50 people to gain experience faster and learn dungeon mechs and higher level player who get a kick out of helping and training new player to do dungeons
6. 4-5 years about DF was great, everyone was helpful but over time there to these toxic DPS/PVPer have made it so no one can be taught how to do mech or even learn the roles so it's become very frustrating
Like I said above to eliminate fake tanks overnight they could add huge reduction in DPS like -75% to anyone who queues as tank and 1. doesn't have 5+ pieces of heavy on 2. uses any weapon except SnB or Ice Staff
But also they could fix the by creating a separate queue or role called 'Speed Runner' or more accurately 'toxic PVP/DPSer' and allow all those people to group together (and not allow under lvl 50). Don't get me wrong I would love that queue myself any time I am only farming gear. I have seen this last suggestion in one form or another for years so ZOS must have seen it, no idea why they don't fix it (unless they are purposely doing it to force people to join guilds which I did for a while but still would like DF to work better).6 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nothing can be done about fake tanks and there will be even more of them next patch, so get used to that. Just improve your own gameplay or git gud. People who suggest 75% dps reduction for fakes lmao. Do you really think that they care about their dps. They queued as fake tank because they dont care about the test of the group. Most of them cant do much dps anyway and hoping to get free carry. So reducing their dps wouldn't change anything, it would only make everything even slower for everyone.
Then alot of people say to kick. That also not gonna help the test of the group. It will take long time to find replacement and chances are that you get another fake tank. It's just best to get on with the dungeon and take the extra dps that the fake tank can provide. Also alot of fake roles queue with a friend or someone wotes no. It's not that easy to kick as you think.
Just save yourself the aggravation and possible toxic rage from someone and improve your skill and get the dungeon done.2 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Now the dps nerf for tanks is mostly regarding tanks in PvP who uses proc sets to do damage while being very hard to kill.Nothing can be done about fake tanks and there will be even more of them next patch, so get used to that. Just improve your own gameplay or git gud. People who suggest 75% dps reduction for fakes lmao. Do you really think that they care about their dps. They queued as fake tank because they dont care about the test of the group. Most of them cant do much dps anyway and hoping to get free carry. So reducing their dps wouldn't change anything, it would only make everything even slower for everyone.
Then alot of people say to kick. That also not gonna help the test of the group. It will take long time to find replacement and chances are that you get another fake tank. It's just best to get on with the dungeon and take the extra dps that the fake tank can provide. Also alot of fake roles queue with a friend or someone wotes no. It's not that easy to kick as you think.
Just save yourself the aggravation and possible toxic rage from someone and improve your skill and get the dungeon done.
Also named tower or rock trolls. Solution is to disengage. Warning any who dies in an tower on an resource will be kicked from group.
And yes most of the fake tanks in pug dungeons does tank level dps because they get away with it.
They got into groups in random normals with 2-3 high cp skilled players one who is an fake tank and think, I can do this too.
However the fake tank did 40K dps and could switch to an more tanky build if needed.
Well get some ebon and the crafted tank set sword and board all enchanted with health and you are an real tank capable of all base vet dungeons, pull in adds and you will get friend requests.
However no food and no taunt is more common because humans, this one is so happy she is an Khajiit.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ryath_Waylander wrote: »How would you stop a DD from queuing in the tank role though? A low HP threshold perhaps?
If you have reasonable CP, decent gear and a bit of practice you can properly tank a normal non DLC dungeon with 20K health and the right shield and damage mitigation skills. There are even tank builds built around 64 magicka/ 0 health / 0 stamina and they work although they are certainly harder to run than the generic 70k health zero damage DK or necro tank.
What's sad is a lot of the fake tanks could go out and buy themselves a set of plague doctor, put a couple of skill points into sword/board and they'd do just fine on non-dlc normal runs even if they kept dps as their other 5 piece and monster helm or trainee as the 2 piece. Stick on both plague doctor and hatchlings shell or green pact plus even cheap food or crusty bread and they'll be well into tank territory even if weaker on some support than a "true" tank as they'll have only skill based supports. Even the skills won't take long. Slot basic sword/board and a couple of dungeons later you'll have levelled up to get a bunch of the heavy armour and sword/board skills/passives.
Gear isn't quite everything in this game but for a wide range of roles gear makes the character and with the PTS changes to champion points the fixed role based on stats gets even more untrue except at the very top end.
Too many toons not enough time1 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭etchedpixels wrote: »
If you have reasonable CP, decent gear and a bit of practice you can properly tank a normal non DLC dungeon with 20K health and the right shield and damage mitigation skills. There are even tank builds built around 64 magicka/ 0 health / 0 stamina and they work although they are certainly harder to run than the generic 70k health zero damage DK or necro tank.
What's sad is a lot of the fake tanks could go out and buy themselves a set of plague doctor, put a couple of skill points into sword/board and they'd do just fine on non-dlc normal runs even if they kept dps as their other 5 piece and monster helm or trainee as the 2 piece. Stick on both plague doctor and hatchlings shell or green pact plus even cheap food or crusty bread and they'll be well into tank territory even if weaker on some support than a "true" tank as they'll have only skill based supports. Even the skills won't take long. Slot basic sword/board and a couple of dungeons later you'll have levelled up to get a bunch of the heavy armour and sword/board skills/passives.
Gear isn't quite everything in this game but for a wide range of roles gear makes the character and with the PTS changes to champion points the fixed role based on stats gets even more untrue except at the very top end.
Yes you are right how easy it is to put on a couple of easily bought sets, snb and taunt but these dudes can't even do that. When I go into DF on any of my stam toons all DPS, I just put on leeching, azurblight, maarselok, snb/ice stf, I can ACTUALLY tank all dungeons even vet (don't do vet DLCs unless I have to have helm) and still to 10K on bosses and just the other day I pulled 20 trash in a big pile and did 60K dps when they all blew up from azureblight.
Since I mostly run dungeon as a tank, I only see fake tanks when I use a Mag DD toon which I always switch to healer for queue. I can say without a doubt when there is a real tank (like me or better) while I am healer it is SO easy and fun but when there are these fake tanks you get a lot of the problems I said before.
The best solution is still creating a separate queue or role for 'speed runners' where all these toxic people can queue together and leave everyone else alone. I'd even take my chance running with them on simple dungeons when I am just farming gear. But I think ZOS is also creating 'companions' and if they create a tank that can do the minimal tanking and a second one who can do a little DPS (minimally better than pugs). I would imagine we won't see those speed runners much. I probably won't even use dungeon finder unless I am leveling up a toon at that point. But it the companions suck that would be bad.0 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vote-kicking a fake tank is not an acceptable solution ..
he'll have no penalty, and will just instaqueue into another group, while the 3 other players who queued in good faith will have to wait an age and a half to get a replacement ..
And all because an obnoxious twit can't be bothered to wait/play his role.
I don't mind 3/4 DDs runs, but I'd NEVER impose one on anyone.
Also, fake tanks tend to have horrid DPS too.
I don't mind carrying the other DD if he is low damaging, because, after all, he is there in good faith and try to play his role. Not his fault if he is a beginer (especially in normal). He'll improve.
But having a fake tank and having to end up carrying his bottom around the dungeon because he cannot do anything right is frankly a bit annoying.8 -
Erelah✭✭✭✭Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »
Not a valid comparison. It is more like stop talking in a way it hurts and talk in a way it doesn't hurt.
The problem exists because of DPS queue takes too long. This is because there are more DPS players in the game and the large amount of low DPS in random groups thus forcing real tanks to not participate in group finders.
It is hard to solve that without increasing the queue time even longer. The system that we have right now allows people to play any role they want and be successful. And pre-made groups allow players that don't want a random group/can't carry fake roles.
I want to make sure I understand this correctly. The problem with people lying about their roles which impacts four other people is not the person who lied, but the system that their choice of how to play the game does not result in the instant gratification of being able to get into a recreational choice, breaking the social contract of being what they actually claim to be and performing the duties?
Does that mean if I sell a run for a skin or personality, do not have the ability and run off with the money the issue is not that I lied about my qualifications, skills, and ability to deliver what I said I would, but the fact that the game charges so much money for a house that it is now permissible for me to do whatever it takes to purchase all the houses in the game?
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Luckylancer✭✭✭✭✭The invisible elephant in the room: people can ruin your gaming experience and your 20 minute DD que time dungeons in ESO and they can get away with it7 -
NoSoup✭✭✭✭There's no such thing as "Fake" roles in normal dungeons, it's simply inexperienced. All normals (including the DLCs) are easily soloable by anyone over 500cp and a stroll for 2 semi competitent people of any cp.
Instead of raging because a "fake" healer/tank/dps ruined your normal dungeon experience, its probably more productive to look at how you can improve your build so that you're not reliant on the "fakes" to get through....
Vet, well that's a completely different ball game. Vet = vote kick & move on....Formally SirDopey, lost forum account during the great reset.....2 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
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(emphasis mine)There's no such thing as "Fake" roles in normal dungeons, it's simply inexperienced. All normals (including the DLCs) are easily soloable by anyone over 500cp and a stroll for 2 semi competitent people of any cp.
Instead of raging because a "fake" healer/tank/dps ruined your normal dungeon experience, its probably more productive to look at how you can improve your build so that you're not reliant on the "fakes" to get through....
Vet, well that's a completely different ball game. Vet = vote kick & move on....
That's simply not true.
If I lie about being a tank, and jump into a dungeon queue on a full damage spec -- as in, I have absolutely no ability or intention to perform any tanking duties at all -- I'm fraudulent by definition. I didn't do it by accident, or because I'm too inexperienced to read what the clearly labeled roles mean -- I did it because I wanted to cut in line. I exploited the "on your honor" system that's in place to get ahead of other players. If that's not fake, I don't know what is.
I can kind of get behind the "there's no such thing as fake DPS/DDs" argument (to an extent), but to say that there's no fake tanks or healers out there is just... It's so false that I'm not sure if you're just trolling, or what, frankly. If you've truly never run into this, then I envy your random dungeon experience!
EDIT :: Although, I definitely think a lot of people are far too quick to label new/inexperienced/struggling players as "FAKE" the moment they don't live up to their standards! That's a fair point, but sort of a separate-but-related issue. Fakers absolutely exist, even if not everyone labeled as one is one.Edited by GreenHere on February 22, 2021 3:04AM10 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DarkKnight wrote: »
When the dungeon started, and it's a DLC, he already comes in saying 'Aggro is going to be weird because I have my gear for soloing dungeons equipped', so this wasn't an accident on his part.
So at this point you can say something like:
1-We'll wait while you change out gear.
2-You can ask "do you have a taunt" because that's the minimum.
I've done both. Sometimes the dungeon goes fine. Sometimes we vote to kick. Sometimes I end up leaving.
Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis1 -
Sahidom✭✭✭✭I am going to be very blunt here. You can over DPS all nonDLC and most DLC dungeons. So with 3x DPS and Healer, you can run through a lot of the game. Any DPS could slot a taunt and kite the boss within reason (dodge rolling heavy hits), so other DPS adapt to a moving fight and swiftly burn the boss down. Other fights have mechanics. Yiu don't often need a tank to work the mechanics, again a DPS or skilled healer with a taunt could manage the aggro while DPS burns the boss down. 3x 70k parsed DPS shreds most vet dungeon bosses. So the question stands? Is your build too weak or specialized that you MUST have a tank? ZOS has made several changes to encourage the roles in PVE content but with current mechanics you can loop hole around them.0
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newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I am going to be very blunt here. You can over DPS all nonDLC and most DLC dungeons. .
I can't.
I can usually do most of the non-vet, but some of the newer ones are not easy. Plus, if I'm doing DPS, I want the boss to be kept in one spot. That's a tank job.
So I want a tank that actually tanks.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis7 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Luckylancer wrote: »The invisible elephant in the room: people can ruin your gaming experience and your 20 minute DD que time dungeons in ESO and they can get away with it
Your gaming experience gets ruined and queue time wasted? What about mine when I queue as real tank and get 10k dps for vet dlc and they also don't know mechs? I can waste 2 hours in there or bail and take the penalty. And then get hate whispers. Everyone's experience can get ruined if you decide to pug. You just have to be ready for it. If you don't like to take a chance then form your own group.
Also no one stops you from making a tank, real or fake. In my experience the ones who mostly complain and judge others are not that great players themselves.3
