Fake tanks and toxic players

Klad

ok...

Honest question... since when did non vet dungeons require a Tank and a Healer? You can almost two man them now with the right gear and knowing what your getting yourself into (aka watch a video to learn the place) and if your are using thinking that the dungeon finder requires a Tank and healer...you are right but in my experience it's always faster just to form a group in Zone.

This is a old argument that when you scratch the surface becomes just other way to bang on people who are considered scrubs by players who consider themselves better.

Also Companions are going to solve your problem for you, most folks who are tired of hearing Fake Tank are going to grab a friend, they will have both companions queued and they will no longer need to be mentored. Then we will probably hear complaints about how no one is queuing for normal dungeons anymore.

Agenericname

Klad wrote: »

ok...

Honest question... since when did non vet dungeons require a Tank and a Healer? You can almost two man them now with the right gear and knowing what your getting yourself into (aka watch a video to learn the place) This is a old argument that when you scratch the surface becomes just other way to bang on people who are considered scrubs by players who consider themselves better.

Also Companions are going to solve your problem for you, most folks who are tired of hearing Fake Tank are going to grab a friend, they will have both companions queued and they will no longer need to be mentored. Then we will probably hear complaints about how no one is queuing for normal dungeons anymore.

Probably since the last time a fresh level 10-20 no-CP player queued.

Its all a matter of perspective. Most of the people that I play with can solo the vets, there isnt a normal dungeon that poses a challenge. Thats not the same for everyone though, so the "necessity" of support roles can be a bit subjective. When you queue for a random, unless you queue as a group, you cannot insure the level of the group youre about to get.

Its really more about rationalizing the behavior than it is about need. They could easily be soloed by most, assuming there isnt a mechanic that prevents it, but the daily requires a group. So its all about the XP and geode.

The obvious downside is, we are basically telling tanks they are unwanted in the content theyre meant to learn in then we make forums posts about their absence when we do want them.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

oscarovegren wrote: »

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Valagash wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

Was it a vet or normal dungeon? If it was a normal dungeon then whatever. You can use 4 DDs in every normal DLC dungeon

Yes you can do, but than go to your zone chat and look for another 3 DD and than join your random queue.

There are a lot of people out there which try a MMO or there role for the first time and want to play a normal group composition and enjoy the dungeon. Or in general just enjoy dungeon designs and encounter.

If you want to rush or don´t play as a group because you are in a rush, than as above. Look for 3 other DDs and than queue for your random

Then do veteran mode. In normal mode there is no need of either tank or heal. I cant blame any DD for quene as tank/healer on normal

Hard Disagree on this. If we had separate queues for DLC and non DLC, then I would agree that queuing as a fake tank is not much of an issue. But even on normal, some DLC dungeons require at least a passible tank with a taunt and a basic knowledge of mechanics, or the group will not complete.

I queue as a "tank" all the time on normal. I don't consider myself a fake tank, because I have a taunt, a heal, and while I am built primarly for DPS, I am satisfying the basic functions of a tank. 80% of my queues are DLC, and of those, half are partway through a dungeon where they got stuck and kicked the tank. I have never failed a dungeon in this manner, but its clear to me that basic tank functions are necessary for a decent chunk of normal DLCs.

Klad

Agenericname wrote: »

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Klad wrote: »

ok...

Honest question... since when did non vet dungeons require a Tank and a Healer? You can almost two man them now with the right gear and knowing what your getting yourself into (aka watch a video to learn the place) This is a old argument that when you scratch the surface becomes just other way to bang on people who are considered scrubs by players who consider themselves better.

Also Companions are going to solve your problem for you, most folks who are tired of hearing Fake Tank are going to grab a friend, they will have both companions queued and they will no longer need to be mentored. Then we will probably hear complaints about how no one is queuing for normal dungeons anymore.

Probably since the last time a fresh level 10-20 no-CP player queued.

Its all a matter of perspective. Most of the people that I play with can solo the vets, there isnt a normal dungeon that poses a challenge. Thats not the same for everyone though, so the "necessity" of support roles can be a bit subjective. When you queue for a random, unless you queue as a group, you cannot insure the level of the group youre about to get.

Its really more about rationalizing the behavior than it is about need. They could easily be soloed by most, assuming there isnt a mechanic that prevents it, but the daily requires a group. So its all about the XP and geode.

The obvious downside is, we are basically telling tanks they are unwanted in the content theyre meant to learn in then we make forums posts about their absence when we do want them.

I disagree, I have tanked (and yes I am a very real tank) and never once felt unneeded, I get that can be a matter of perspective but I have played MMO's since EQ and have played most of the relevant ones to the highest form of raiding. ESO issues are minor comparatively and they have a several workarounds and are creating more. For the game to succeed it must accommodate many different play styles. Wildstar disagreed with that....Wildstar is shut down.

Honestly my advice is get out of the finder and form a group. Most MMO's a few years back didn't even have finders...so it's odd of you to basically complain about the lack of ridged guidelines, when you yourself would be labeled a ez mode gamer just a few short years ago.

Agenericname

Klad wrote: »

show previous quotes

Agenericname wrote: »

Klad wrote: »

ok...

Honest question... since when did non vet dungeons require a Tank and a Healer? You can almost two man them now with the right gear and knowing what your getting yourself into (aka watch a video to learn the place) This is a old argument that when you scratch the surface becomes just other way to bang on people who are considered scrubs by players who consider themselves better.

Also Companions are going to solve your problem for you, most folks who are tired of hearing Fake Tank are going to grab a friend, they will have both companions queued and they will no longer need to be mentored. Then we will probably hear complaints about how no one is queuing for normal dungeons anymore.

Probably since the last time a fresh level 10-20 no-CP player queued.

Its all a matter of perspective. Most of the people that I play with can solo the vets, there isnt a normal dungeon that poses a challenge. Thats not the same for everyone though, so the "necessity" of support roles can be a bit subjective. When you queue for a random, unless you queue as a group, you cannot insure the level of the group youre about to get.

Its really more about rationalizing the behavior than it is about need. They could easily be soloed by most, assuming there isnt a mechanic that prevents it, but the daily requires a group. So its all about the XP and geode.

The obvious downside is, we are basically telling tanks they are unwanted in the content theyre meant to learn in then we make forums posts about their absence when we do want them.

I disagree, I have tanked (and yes I am a very real tank) and never once felt unneeded, I get that can be a matter of perspective but I have played MMO's since EQ and have played most of the relevant ones to the highest form of raiding. ESO issues are minor comparatively and they have a several workarounds and are creating more. For the game to succeed it must accommodate many different play styles. Wildstar disagreed with that....Wildstar is shut down.

Honestly my advice is get out of the finder and form a group. Most MMO's a few years back didn't even have finders...so it's odd of you to basically complain about the lack of ridged guidelines, when you yourself would be labeled a ez mode gamer just a few short years ago.

I didnt complain about ridged guidelines, or there lack thereof. I said that we (gamers) can be a bit selfish at times and not very considerate. You dont really need guidelines to be considerate.

Ive been playing them UO in 97, Im aware of what life was like prior. The rest are massive assumptions on your part.

Klad

Agenericname wrote: »

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Klad wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Klad wrote: »

ok...

Honest question... since when did non vet dungeons require a Tank and a Healer? You can almost two man them now with the right gear and knowing what your getting yourself into (aka watch a video to learn the place) This is a old argument that when you scratch the surface becomes just other way to bang on people who are considered scrubs by players who consider themselves better.

Also Companions are going to solve your problem for you, most folks who are tired of hearing Fake Tank are going to grab a friend, they will have both companions queued and they will no longer need to be mentored. Then we will probably hear complaints about how no one is queuing for normal dungeons anymore.

Probably since the last time a fresh level 10-20 no-CP player queued.

Its all a matter of perspective. Most of the people that I play with can solo the vets, there isnt a normal dungeon that poses a challenge. Thats not the same for everyone though, so the "necessity" of support roles can be a bit subjective. When you queue for a random, unless you queue as a group, you cannot insure the level of the group youre about to get.

Its really more about rationalizing the behavior than it is about need. They could easily be soloed by most, assuming there isnt a mechanic that prevents it, but the daily requires a group. So its all about the XP and geode.

The obvious downside is, we are basically telling tanks they are unwanted in the content theyre meant to learn in then we make forums posts about their absence when we do want them.

I disagree, I have tanked (and yes I am a very real tank) and never once felt unneeded, I get that can be a matter of perspective but I have played MMO's since EQ and have played most of the relevant ones to the highest form of raiding. ESO issues are minor comparatively and they have a several workarounds and are creating more. For the game to succeed it must accommodate many different play styles. Wildstar disagreed with that....Wildstar is shut down.

Honestly my advice is get out of the finder and form a group. Most MMO's a few years back didn't even have finders...so it's odd of you to basically complain about the lack of ridged guidelines, when you yourself would be labeled a ez mode gamer just a few short years ago.

I didnt complain about ridged guidelines, or there lack thereof. I said that we (gamers) can be a bit selfish at times and not very considerate. You dont really need guidelines to be considerate.

Ive been playing them UO in 97, Im aware of what life was like prior. The rest are massive assumptions on your part.

Okayyyy... no need to get terse dude, especially since your post is about Toxic players

El_Borracho

@Klad, I agree that most normal base dungeons can be run without a tank, but as long as the DPS are halfway decent. Most of the time you can burn through mechanics and self heal. But if you jump in with a fake tank that is also a wet noodle DPS, like OP said, that's different. That person is not a scrub, its someone looking for a carry and who doesn't feel the need to wait in line in group finder. I have no problem booting those players if it hurts the group. If they got toxic in chat after being called out, its a no-brainer.

But this is far different from someone queuing as a DPS that is weak or someone who is queued as a tank, is trying to tank, and is struggling. More than happy to help those players out, again, as long as they aren't acting like fools.

tenryuta

StarOfElyon wrote: »

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DarkKnight wrote: »

If we apparently can't stop people from moonlighting for roles they aren't suited for, can we please at least do something about their toxicity? CP150 player admits he isn't a real tank at the start of DLC dungeon, but then also can't DPS. After wiping several times, I asked him why he even queued at all. This was his colorful response to being called out:
[snip]
[snip]

That's just not an okay way to behave in group.

Zos, if you are going to do basically nothing to stop people from queuing in bad faith, at least manage their otherwise toxic attitudes. I pay to have fun, not to put up with this kind of non-sense.

[Edit to remove images for Profanity and Naming and Shamnig.]

The solution is to make it harder to be a tank and still do damage. If you want to do damage, you should be squishy. If you want to be tanky, you don't do damage. That will end fake tanks really fast.

so make it like every traditional mmo, where if youre not a tank class you die from fighting 2 normal mobs at once(ffderpstain stab)... the beauty of eso is you can subtank if the main is somehow worse than you at it(i use 1 bar for global, 1 backup tank/ghetto heals)

f047ys3v3n

I was playing on my alt that is my daughters account yesteday and got booted from a dungeon finder group just before we started the last boss. I'm thinking, that's strange, I was pulling my weight, what gives. So I ask one of the dudes.

His response.

We just booted you because our buddy wanted to come in and get the loot.

Yea, apparently they were a 3 man pre-form and all the time had the idea of just making me do all the work and then booting me before the last boss to bring in their buddy.

ZOS response.... What do you think?

Form letter blada blada we do not discuss, we protect all bullies, cheater, and miscreants...... no sorry for your bad time, no, loot, not even a word or two written by a human. Felt like getting a beating on the street, going to a cop to report, and getting another beating.

Just so you know what we think ZOS. We think you never ban anybody for cheating, bullying, or treating players poorly. We think you never take any action of any kind whatsoever. But if I put a screenshot here of my conversation with those jerks that had their name in it you would ban me so fast my head would spin for "naming and shaming". The shame is on you ZOS.

And no, ZOS did not sent me the keys and loot for the ARX pledge I was denied the complete on. They could have, but a person would have had to look at my complaint to do that. No medusa inferno or keys for my little girl. Sorry little one, it might have been your birthday this week but ZOS gift is a big ol turd.

Daemonai

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I was playing on my alt that is my daughters account yesteday and got booted from a dungeon finder group just before we started the last boss. I'm thinking, that's strange, I was pulling my weight, what gives. So I ask one of the dudes.

His response.

We just booted you because our buddy wanted to come in and get the loot.

Yea, apparently they were a 3 man pre-form and all the time had the idea of just making me do all the work and then booting me before the last boss to bring in their buddy.

Bit off-topic, but the exact same thing happened to me once. I wouldn't even be surprised if it was the same group of people. I joined as a tank, did my usual awesome job, and then they proceeded to kick me once the last boss reached 10% and waited around until the kick timer booted me. It is one of the reasons I don't like tanking for pugs anymore, this community can be downright cancerous sometimes.

Kurat

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I was playing on my alt that is my daughters account yesteday and got booted from a dungeon finder group just before we started the last boss. I'm thinking, that's strange, I was pulling my weight, what gives. So I ask one of the dudes.

His response.

We just booted you because our buddy wanted to come in and get the loot.

Yea, apparently they were a 3 man pre-form and all the time had the idea of just making me do all the work and then booting me before the last boss to bring in their buddy.

ZOS response.... What do you think?

Form letter blada blada we do not discuss, we protect all bullies, cheater, and miscreants...... no sorry for your bad time, no, loot, not even a word or two written by a human. Felt like getting a beating on the street, going to a cop to report, and getting another beating.

Just so you know what we think ZOS. We think you never ban anybody for cheating, bullying, or treating players poorly. We think you never take any action of any kind whatsoever. But if I put a screenshot here of my conversation with those jerks that had their name in it you would ban me so fast my head would spin for "naming and shaming". The shame is on you ZOS.

And no, ZOS did not sent me the keys and loot for the ARX pledge I was denied the complete on. They could have, but a person would have had to look at my complaint to do that. No medusa inferno or keys for my little girl. Sorry little one, it might have been your birthday this week but ZOS gift is a big ol turd.

Wow, I've never heard this happen in dungeons before, esp non dlc ones. But it seems to be common thing in places like vDSA. 3 friends/guildys form a group and then kick the 4th pug person at last boss. Then they will either sell "carry " with all weps to someone or bring in some other friend.

renne

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I was playing on my alt that is my daughters account yesteday and got booted from a dungeon finder group just before we started the last boss. I'm thinking, that's strange, I was pulling my weight, what gives. So I ask one of the dudes.

His response.

We just booted you because our buddy wanted to come in and get the loot.

Yea, apparently they were a 3 man pre-form and all the time had the idea of just making me do all the work and then booting me before the last boss to bring in their buddy.

ZOS response.... What do you think?

Form letter blada blada we do not discuss, we protect all bullies, cheater, and miscreants...... no sorry for your bad time, no, loot, not even a word or two written by a human. Felt like getting a beating on the street, going to a cop to report, and getting another beating.

Just so you know what we think ZOS. We think you never ban anybody for cheating, bullying, or treating players poorly. We think you never take any action of any kind whatsoever. But if I put a screenshot here of my conversation with those jerks that had their name in it you would ban me so fast my head would spin for "naming and shaming". The shame is on you ZOS.

And no, ZOS did not sent me the keys and loot for the ARX pledge I was denied the complete on. They could have, but a person would have had to look at my complaint to do that. No medusa inferno or keys for my little girl. Sorry little one, it might have been your birthday this week but ZOS gift is a big ol turd.

I'm so sorry to hear you had that experience, those people seem awful. Are you on PS or Xbox? Can you report them to Sony or MS?

Also I've found regardless of what you put in your report or ticket the first response is always a canned one that makes zero effort to address your issue (my favourite was a missing geode from a top % campaign reward where I listed every single detail and just got a canned response on hOw tO sEt YoUr hOmE cAmPaiGn like I hadn't done it because that's how I got the reward to begin with), and if you keep replying you actually get to communicate with a human being.

GreenHere

@f047ys3v3n & @Daemonai , I hate to say it, but that's just how ZOS does things.

You need to reply to that canned response a time or few before your message even reaches a real person.

Presumably it's a system of weeding out the people who are just messaging support for "dummy" issues and are too lazy to read the FAQs or whatever, but it can really be frustrating when you are trying to deal with a real issue. If/when you reach actual Support personnel, they may be more helpful; but you gotta work a little harder before giving up in order to even talk to them.

oscarovegren

Agenericname wrote: »

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oscarovegren wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

I am going to be very blunt here. You can over DPS all nonDLC and most DLC dungeons. .

Next one is me:

newtinmpls wrote: »

I can't.

I can usually do most of the non-vet, but some of the newer ones are not easy. Plus, if I'm doing DPS, I want the boss to be kept in one spot. That's a tank job.

So I want a tank that actually tanks.

Let me clarify. I can successfully participate in a group and survive most dungeons on normal, and some of the DLC's on vet. I've been playing since a month after PC release, and I'm NOT an "MMO'er" so it took me literally 2 years of play to get to the point where I kite without thinking about it.

I enjoy overland, do not do trials, do not do PvP so there is a LOT of fancy gear I don't use/have. I mostly play with a few particular friends, and semi-regularly do random runs, usually as a healer or tank, as I find those are more about skill and paying attention rather than straight out massive DPS, so they are easier for me to achieve.

That being said I have multiple characters kitted out as DPSs and two in particular very kick-ass to do vet stuff.

oscarovegren wrote: »

Play veteran then. Tanks is not required for any normal dungeons. If you can´t stay alive on normal without a tank you are a very bad player tbh

You make two separate points here:

1-tanking is not required for dungeons.

Possibly true, but it is required by the dungeon finder, so when you sign up to participate in a "random group" you are saying "I can and will perform this role in this party". As others have pointed out in this thread, that is fraud and untrue.

2-If someone can't stay alive without a tank you are a bad player

If there is no "tank" then guess who gets the aggro? The healer. So when the non-armoured-to-heck healer gets aggro-ed, then folks start dying (possibly starting with the healer).

And back to the first point (and the main topic of the thread).

If someone signs on "as a tank" and then promptly tells the team (or demonstrates to the team, by totally NOT tanking) that they are NOT doing the job they agreed to do, then the proper response would be to kick and/or report them.

Personally I start by saying "will you please load up a taunt of some kind" because that's my minimum. Some folks will say "sure, no problem" and do it. Some will get verbally abusive.

Then, I respond to whatever happens.

As a separate point, I could see that it might be interesting to have a "no specific role" group option. I wonder how that would play out.

Edit: for clarity

Your role doesn´t matter in normal dungeons. You can take on any role and do whatever you want in normal. The roles you sign for only applies for vet content. There is no need to hold aggro in normal dungeons.

Roles are important in vet DLC dungeons and to a certain degree in non-DLC vet dungeons. There is still a lot of vet dungeons you can push through fast with 4 DDs since there is no tank-required mechanic

Trying to move fakes to normal dungeons to get rid of them in vet have never worked. What you see in norm, you will see the same in vet a month or so later - it have never failed.

Many fakes end up in pug situations because not many wanna group with them in the first place - that´s what I see in chat.

Non fakes end up in pugs because it´s faster than vet. I do vet because I need a helmet and will do those, with guild mates, not pug. I do norm on my tanks and healers, because I don´t have to rush.. I can balance it so I don´t have to miss or rush through content.

To use norm dungeons as a dumpster for all kind of griefing is selfish and arrogant - it simply don´t have a place in ESO and ends up in vet as well.

If you want a stable and non toxic community, you need to keep the rols, because it´s the fastes way for people to get an idea of, what your role is about.

You don´t need to keep to the roles if the content doesn´t require you to fulfill your role, which normal dungeons doesn´t require. There´s nothing toxic with quene as a tank with a DD in a normal dungeon. As long as you clear the content it doesn´t matter.

For veteran dungeon I have the opposite opinion. It´s important to fulfill the role you quened for there

Ive cleared nearly all of the vet dungeons solo, that can be done solo. So it would be fair for me to queue as a fake tank there?

As long as you are able to clear the content I don´t have any issues with you quene as a faketank

oscarovegren

preevious wrote: »

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oscarovegren wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

I am going to be very blunt here. You can over DPS all nonDLC and most DLC dungeons. .

Next one is me:

newtinmpls wrote: »

I can't.

I can usually do most of the non-vet, but some of the newer ones are not easy. Plus, if I'm doing DPS, I want the boss to be kept in one spot. That's a tank job.

So I want a tank that actually tanks.

Let me clarify. I can successfully participate in a group and survive most dungeons on normal, and some of the DLC's on vet. I've been playing since a month after PC release, and I'm NOT an "MMO'er" so it took me literally 2 years of play to get to the point where I kite without thinking about it.

I enjoy overland, do not do trials, do not do PvP so there is a LOT of fancy gear I don't use/have. I mostly play with a few particular friends, and semi-regularly do random runs, usually as a healer or tank, as I find those are more about skill and paying attention rather than straight out massive DPS, so they are easier for me to achieve.

That being said I have multiple characters kitted out as DPSs and two in particular very kick-ass to do vet stuff.

oscarovegren wrote: »

Play veteran then. Tanks is not required for any normal dungeons. If you can´t stay alive on normal without a tank you are a very bad player tbh

You make two separate points here:

1-tanking is not required for dungeons.

Possibly true, but it is required by the dungeon finder, so when you sign up to participate in a "random group" you are saying "I can and will perform this role in this party". As others have pointed out in this thread, that is fraud and untrue.

2-If someone can't stay alive without a tank you are a bad player

If there is no "tank" then guess who gets the aggro? The healer. So when the non-armoured-to-heck healer gets aggro-ed, then folks start dying (possibly starting with the healer).

And back to the first point (and the main topic of the thread).

If someone signs on "as a tank" and then promptly tells the team (or demonstrates to the team, by totally NOT tanking) that they are NOT doing the job they agreed to do, then the proper response would be to kick and/or report them.

Personally I start by saying "will you please load up a taunt of some kind" because that's my minimum. Some folks will say "sure, no problem" and do it. Some will get verbally abusive.

Then, I respond to whatever happens.

As a separate point, I could see that it might be interesting to have a "no specific role" group option. I wonder how that would play out.

Edit: for clarity

Your role doesn´t matter in normal dungeons. You can take on any role and do whatever you want in normal. The roles you sign for only applies for vet content. There is no need to hold aggro in normal dungeons.

Roles are important in vet DLC dungeons and to a certain degree in non-DLC vet dungeons. There is still a lot of vet dungeons you can push through fast with 4 DDs since there is no tank-required mechanic

Trying to move fakes to normal dungeons to get rid of them in vet have never worked. What you see in norm, you will see the same in vet a month or so later - it have never failed.

Many fakes end up in pug situations because not many wanna group with them in the first place - that´s what I see in chat.

Non fakes end up in pugs because it´s faster than vet. I do vet because I need a helmet and will do those, with guild mates, not pug. I do norm on my tanks and healers, because I don´t have to rush.. I can balance it so I don´t have to miss or rush through content.

To use norm dungeons as a dumpster for all kind of griefing is selfish and arrogant - it simply don´t have a place in ESO and ends up in vet as well.

If you want a stable and non toxic community, you need to keep the rols, because it´s the fastes way for people to get an idea of, what your role is about.

You don´t need to keep to the roles if the content doesn´t require you to fulfill your role, which normal dungeons doesn´t require. There´s nothing toxic with quene as a tank with a DD in a normal dungeon. As long as you clear the content it doesn´t matter.

For veteran dungeon I have the opposite opinion. It´s important to fulfill the role you quened for there

You almost got it, but I'll rephrase it for you :

"you don't have to keep the role if everyone involved agrees in advance."

A new player will be rightly pissed if his first experience in a dungeon is miserable because every players/ennemies/boss runs around like headless chickens for want of a tank.

Queueing as a tank when you are a DD is toxic, even in normal fungal grotto 1.

Then we have different opinions. Quene as tank with a DD in vet FG1 is perfectly fine! I would say it´s prefered

I can get we have different opinions, sure.

But queuing as tank when DD in vFG1 actually lowers the whole group's damage.
Not only you lie about your role, but you are actually a detriment to your group.

If being in a group where the DDs have a dps around 10k and you enter with your 50k dps selfbuffed DD you will increase the damage by A LOT

AyaDark

Kurat wrote: »

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f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I was playing on my alt that is my daughters account yesteday and got booted from a dungeon finder group just before we started the last boss. I'm thinking, that's strange, I was pulling my weight, what gives. So I ask one of the dudes.

His response.

We just booted you because our buddy wanted to come in and get the loot.

Yea, apparently they were a 3 man pre-form and all the time had the idea of just making me do all the work and then booting me before the last boss to bring in their buddy.

ZOS response.... What do you think?

Form letter blada blada we do not discuss, we protect all bullies, cheater, and miscreants...... no sorry for your bad time, no, loot, not even a word or two written by a human. Felt like getting a beating on the street, going to a cop to report, and getting another beating.

Just so you know what we think ZOS. We think you never ban anybody for cheating, bullying, or treating players poorly. We think you never take any action of any kind whatsoever. But if I put a screenshot here of my conversation with those jerks that had their name in it you would ban me so fast my head would spin for "naming and shaming". The shame is on you ZOS.

And no, ZOS did not sent me the keys and loot for the ARX pledge I was denied the complete on. They could have, but a person would have had to look at my complaint to do that. No medusa inferno or keys for my little girl. Sorry little one, it might have been your birthday this week but ZOS gift is a big ol turd.

Wow, I've never heard this happen in dungeons before, esp non dlc ones. But it seems to be common thing in places like vDSA. 3 friends/guildys form a group and then kick the 4th pug person at last boss. Then they will either sell "carry " with all weps to someone or bring in some other friend.

What is the point to look 1 more man do vDSA to kick him ? If it is more simple just do 3 people run untill last ? And take 1 man, then find some one to kick him ?

You just spend more time lookingfor that man ... is it not ?

preevious

oscarovegren wrote: »

show previous quotes

preevious wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

I am going to be very blunt here. You can over DPS all nonDLC and most DLC dungeons. .

Next one is me:

newtinmpls wrote: »

I can't.

I can usually do most of the non-vet, but some of the newer ones are not easy. Plus, if I'm doing DPS, I want the boss to be kept in one spot. That's a tank job.

So I want a tank that actually tanks.

Let me clarify. I can successfully participate in a group and survive most dungeons on normal, and some of the DLC's on vet. I've been playing since a month after PC release, and I'm NOT an "MMO'er" so it took me literally 2 years of play to get to the point where I kite without thinking about it.

I enjoy overland, do not do trials, do not do PvP so there is a LOT of fancy gear I don't use/have. I mostly play with a few particular friends, and semi-regularly do random runs, usually as a healer or tank, as I find those are more about skill and paying attention rather than straight out massive DPS, so they are easier for me to achieve.

That being said I have multiple characters kitted out as DPSs and two in particular very kick-ass to do vet stuff.

oscarovegren wrote: »

Play veteran then. Tanks is not required for any normal dungeons. If you can´t stay alive on normal without a tank you are a very bad player tbh

You make two separate points here:

1-tanking is not required for dungeons.

Possibly true, but it is required by the dungeon finder, so when you sign up to participate in a "random group" you are saying "I can and will perform this role in this party". As others have pointed out in this thread, that is fraud and untrue.

2-If someone can't stay alive without a tank you are a bad player

If there is no "tank" then guess who gets the aggro? The healer. So when the non-armoured-to-heck healer gets aggro-ed, then folks start dying (possibly starting with the healer).

And back to the first point (and the main topic of the thread).

If someone signs on "as a tank" and then promptly tells the team (or demonstrates to the team, by totally NOT tanking) that they are NOT doing the job they agreed to do, then the proper response would be to kick and/or report them.

Personally I start by saying "will you please load up a taunt of some kind" because that's my minimum. Some folks will say "sure, no problem" and do it. Some will get verbally abusive.

Then, I respond to whatever happens.

As a separate point, I could see that it might be interesting to have a "no specific role" group option. I wonder how that would play out.

Edit: for clarity

Your role doesn´t matter in normal dungeons. You can take on any role and do whatever you want in normal. The roles you sign for only applies for vet content. There is no need to hold aggro in normal dungeons.

Roles are important in vet DLC dungeons and to a certain degree in non-DLC vet dungeons. There is still a lot of vet dungeons you can push through fast with 4 DDs since there is no tank-required mechanic

Trying to move fakes to normal dungeons to get rid of them in vet have never worked. What you see in norm, you will see the same in vet a month or so later - it have never failed.

Many fakes end up in pug situations because not many wanna group with them in the first place - that´s what I see in chat.

Non fakes end up in pugs because it´s faster than vet. I do vet because I need a helmet and will do those, with guild mates, not pug. I do norm on my tanks and healers, because I don´t have to rush.. I can balance it so I don´t have to miss or rush through content.

To use norm dungeons as a dumpster for all kind of griefing is selfish and arrogant - it simply don´t have a place in ESO and ends up in vet as well.

If you want a stable and non toxic community, you need to keep the rols, because it´s the fastes way for people to get an idea of, what your role is about.

You don´t need to keep to the roles if the content doesn´t require you to fulfill your role, which normal dungeons doesn´t require. There´s nothing toxic with quene as a tank with a DD in a normal dungeon. As long as you clear the content it doesn´t matter.

For veteran dungeon I have the opposite opinion. It´s important to fulfill the role you quened for there

You almost got it, but I'll rephrase it for you :

"you don't have to keep the role if everyone involved agrees in advance."

A new player will be rightly pissed if his first experience in a dungeon is miserable because every players/ennemies/boss runs around like headless chickens for want of a tank.

Queueing as a tank when you are a DD is toxic, even in normal fungal grotto 1.

Then we have different opinions. Quene as tank with a DD in vet FG1 is perfectly fine! I would say it´s prefered

I can get we have different opinions, sure.

But queuing as tank when DD in vFG1 actually lowers the whole group's damage.
Not only you lie about your role, but you are actually a detriment to your group.

If being in a group where the DDs have a dps around 10k and you enter with your 50k dps selfbuffed DD you will increase the damage by A LOT

Anecdata is not data.
I don't know in what universe youn play, but most DDs I end up with certainly do more than 10k.

So, yes .. in the unlikely combination of cosmic event you spoke about, you might, possibly, bring a small modicum of actual help.
In all of the overwhelming, crushing majority of cases, you'll be a detriment.

A taunt is not enough, even. Tanks don't kite the bosses. Tanks hold them in place.
If you don't hold the boss, your 50k DPS (wich is nice, I don't deny it) is unhelpfull, because the boss will be runing around like a moron, annoying everyone ever. You'll not be an hero, you'll be that guy who made the dungeon annoying.
.

AvalonRanger

ZOS rebuild CP system again. I'm VERY afraid of that.
What kind of disaster will happen for my character.

ZOS should make decent tutorial quest.

How to become tank, dps healer....etc.
There're too many of option in this game, and too much complex.
Without youtube video, I couldn't understand any of that.

oscarovegren

preevious wrote: »

show previous quotes

oscarovegren wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

I am going to be very blunt here. You can over DPS all nonDLC and most DLC dungeons. .

Next one is me:

newtinmpls wrote: »

I can't.

I can usually do most of the non-vet, but some of the newer ones are not easy. Plus, if I'm doing DPS, I want the boss to be kept in one spot. That's a tank job.

So I want a tank that actually tanks.

Let me clarify. I can successfully participate in a group and survive most dungeons on normal, and some of the DLC's on vet. I've been playing since a month after PC release, and I'm NOT an "MMO'er" so it took me literally 2 years of play to get to the point where I kite without thinking about it.

I enjoy overland, do not do trials, do not do PvP so there is a LOT of fancy gear I don't use/have. I mostly play with a few particular friends, and semi-regularly do random runs, usually as a healer or tank, as I find those are more about skill and paying attention rather than straight out massive DPS, so they are easier for me to achieve.

That being said I have multiple characters kitted out as DPSs and two in particular very kick-ass to do vet stuff.

oscarovegren wrote: »

Play veteran then. Tanks is not required for any normal dungeons. If you can´t stay alive on normal without a tank you are a very bad player tbh

You make two separate points here:

1-tanking is not required for dungeons.

Possibly true, but it is required by the dungeon finder, so when you sign up to participate in a "random group" you are saying "I can and will perform this role in this party". As others have pointed out in this thread, that is fraud and untrue.

2-If someone can't stay alive without a tank you are a bad player

If there is no "tank" then guess who gets the aggro? The healer. So when the non-armoured-to-heck healer gets aggro-ed, then folks start dying (possibly starting with the healer).

And back to the first point (and the main topic of the thread).

If someone signs on "as a tank" and then promptly tells the team (or demonstrates to the team, by totally NOT tanking) that they are NOT doing the job they agreed to do, then the proper response would be to kick and/or report them.

Personally I start by saying "will you please load up a taunt of some kind" because that's my minimum. Some folks will say "sure, no problem" and do it. Some will get verbally abusive.

Then, I respond to whatever happens.

As a separate point, I could see that it might be interesting to have a "no specific role" group option. I wonder how that would play out.

Edit: for clarity

Your role doesn´t matter in normal dungeons. You can take on any role and do whatever you want in normal. The roles you sign for only applies for vet content. There is no need to hold aggro in normal dungeons.

Roles are important in vet DLC dungeons and to a certain degree in non-DLC vet dungeons. There is still a lot of vet dungeons you can push through fast with 4 DDs since there is no tank-required mechanic

Trying to move fakes to normal dungeons to get rid of them in vet have never worked. What you see in norm, you will see the same in vet a month or so later - it have never failed.

Many fakes end up in pug situations because not many wanna group with them in the first place - that´s what I see in chat.

Non fakes end up in pugs because it´s faster than vet. I do vet because I need a helmet and will do those, with guild mates, not pug. I do norm on my tanks and healers, because I don´t have to rush.. I can balance it so I don´t have to miss or rush through content.

To use norm dungeons as a dumpster for all kind of griefing is selfish and arrogant - it simply don´t have a place in ESO and ends up in vet as well.

If you want a stable and non toxic community, you need to keep the rols, because it´s the fastes way for people to get an idea of, what your role is about.

You don´t need to keep to the roles if the content doesn´t require you to fulfill your role, which normal dungeons doesn´t require. There´s nothing toxic with quene as a tank with a DD in a normal dungeon. As long as you clear the content it doesn´t matter.

For veteran dungeon I have the opposite opinion. It´s important to fulfill the role you quened for there

You almost got it, but I'll rephrase it for you :

"you don't have to keep the role if everyone involved agrees in advance."

A new player will be rightly pissed if his first experience in a dungeon is miserable because every players/ennemies/boss runs around like headless chickens for want of a tank.

Queueing as a tank when you are a DD is toxic, even in normal fungal grotto 1.

Then we have different opinions. Quene as tank with a DD in vet FG1 is perfectly fine! I would say it´s prefered

I can get we have different opinions, sure.

But queuing as tank when DD in vFG1 actually lowers the whole group's damage.
Not only you lie about your role, but you are actually a detriment to your group.

If being in a group where the DDs have a dps around 10k and you enter with your 50k dps selfbuffed DD you will increase the damage by A LOT

Anecdata is not data.
I don't know in what universe youn play, but most DDs I end up with certainly do more than 10k.

So, yes .. in the unlikely combination of cosmic event you spoke about, you might, possibly, bring a small modicum of actual help.
In all of the overwhelming, crushing majority of cases, you'll be a detriment.

A taunt is not enough, even. Tanks don't kite the bosses. Tanks hold them in place.
If you don't hold the boss, your 50k DPS (wich is nice, I don't deny it) is unhelpfull, because the boss will be runing around like a moron, annoying everyone ever. You'll not be an hero, you'll be that guy who made the dungeon annoying.
.

It´s pretty common with really bad DPS from DDs from time to time so yeah, 10k DPS isn´t rare with dizzy/brawler/snipe spamming DDs without dots

Luckylancer

Agenericname wrote: »

show previous quotes

Luckylancer wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

The invisible elephant in the room: people can ruin your gaming experience and your 20 minute DD que time dungeons in ESO and they can get away with it

Your gaming experience gets ruined and queue time wasted? What about mine when I queue as real tank and get 10k dps for vet dlc and they also don't know mechs? I can waste 2 hours in there or bail and take the penalty. And then get hate whispers. Everyone's experience can get ruined if you decide to pug. You just have to be ready for it. If you don't like to take a chance then form your own group.
Also no one stops you from making a tank, real or fake. In my experience the ones who mostly complain and judge others are not that great players themselves.

As a tank you have short que times and you can punish that group by leaving. It is hard to find tanks. But my groups can find a DD easly.

I will blame and judge others if they que as tank while they are dd AND we wipe several times in a row. I wont blame them if they are failed real tank.

Solution to fake tanks is not making my own tank or fake tank. The solution is not "make your group". The solution is removal of unsuccesfull fake tanks one way or another from game. If queing pugs as tank have 30k hp requirement, fake tank numbers will diminish.

You're proposing to impose a restriction on real tanks because of DDs posing as tanks? Should tanks then be allowed to set restrictions on DDs? Like maybe combat data? Parses? Certain gear?

That isnt going to solve your issue either way. Youll just have longer queue times.

Why is it hard to find a real tank? That should be the real question. Fake tanks fill a vacuum.

Yes, restrict real tanks because of DD fake tanks. But the restriction for real tanks should being a real tank. Mind blowing I know. 30k hp or even 25k hp minimum limit will be enough.

I dont care what tanks wear or use most of the time. I just want tank to not die and keep boss in one place. Thats all.

I will want tank to be actually usefull in very hard content, they expect my DPS to be high. This is normal.

JB_den

After tanking and playing DPS for several months, I can say DPS is more fun to play. Tanks did not get any love this up coming big patch we have a few days away and they're not that fun to play, they don't do any real damage, the only threat is a single target active taunt that is short duration that you have to weave in. Can they make the role fun to play? why are the devs against 'fun'.

The biggest draw to tanking is the no-wait instant queue which gives you easy access to gear for you collection book and basically farming for materials overall. You can only farm for so long.

Agenericname

Luckylancer wrote: »

show previous quotes

Agenericname wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

The invisible elephant in the room: people can ruin your gaming experience and your 20 minute DD que time dungeons in ESO and they can get away with it

Your gaming experience gets ruined and queue time wasted? What about mine when I queue as real tank and get 10k dps for vet dlc and they also don't know mechs? I can waste 2 hours in there or bail and take the penalty. And then get hate whispers. Everyone's experience can get ruined if you decide to pug. You just have to be ready for it. If you don't like to take a chance then form your own group.
Also no one stops you from making a tank, real or fake. In my experience the ones who mostly complain and judge others are not that great players themselves.

As a tank you have short que times and you can punish that group by leaving. It is hard to find tanks. But my groups can find a DD easly.

I will blame and judge others if they que as tank while they are dd AND we wipe several times in a row. I wont blame them if they are failed real tank.

Solution to fake tanks is not making my own tank or fake tank. The solution is not "make your group". The solution is removal of unsuccesfull fake tanks one way or another from game. If queing pugs as tank have 30k hp requirement, fake tank numbers will diminish.

You're proposing to impose a restriction on real tanks because of DDs posing as tanks? Should tanks then be allowed to set restrictions on DDs? Like maybe combat data? Parses? Certain gear?

That isnt going to solve your issue either way. Youll just have longer queue times.

Why is it hard to find a real tank? That should be the real question. Fake tanks fill a vacuum.

Yes, restrict real tanks because of DD fake tanks. But the restriction for real tanks should being a real tank. Mind blowing I know. 30k hp or even 25k hp minimum limit will be enough.

I dont care what tanks wear or use most of the time. I just want tank to not die and keep boss in one place. Thats all.

I will want tank to be actually usefull in very hard content, they expect my DPS to be high. This is normal.

It isnt going to solve your problem. At best it will make your queue longer. We will all have higher health soon enough and what youll have with health restrictions will be DDs with higher health.

Placing restrictions on real tanks wont do anything. Real tanks, with a few exceptions, already have larger health pools anyway and the folks circumventing it will continue to do so. It wont magically make more tanks. If you want to see fewer fanks tanks in the queue then you need to increase the amount of real tanks in the queue.

While is disagree with the rationalization, @oscarovegren is correct about low DPS being an issue at times. Its not as uncommon as some think. Even if it were a relatively small, percentage, it makes the choice to run with guildies/friends that much more attractive. As a tank you have very little control over of the groups damage aside from buffs, debuffs, and grouping. The most control over the DPS that a tank has is the choice of who they run with.

I ran vBRF twice last night. Once as a tank in a PUG. The group damage was 26k, of which the healer and I made up 35%. The group was nice enough and we stayed, but a bit of a slog. The 2nd run was friends and we cleared HM in less than half an hour (with a healer BTW).

PUGs are PUGs, you get what you get. Im not complaining, simply pointing out why some tanks dont want to roll the dice. If they want to ever see a healthy solution to this problem, then they need to figure out how to get tanks in the queue.

preevious

I'm always astonished by the pug horror stories I read on the forum.

In vet content, it almost never happens to me. The other DD is almost always at least correct.

In normal, it's a bit different, sure, it's not rare for me to do 75-80% of the goup's damage, there .. but they are low level and play normal. It's normal and expected, there, no issue at all.

If you want DDs in nFG1 to do 40k Dps both, the problem is with you, to be honnest, not with them.
It's no reason to fake tank. If you want a group that does DPS, go play in vet, don't try to "correct" your pug's DPS by fake tanking in normal dungeons.

amm7sb14_ESO

preevious wrote: »

I'm always astonished by the pug horror stories I read on the forum.

In vet content, it almost never happens to me.

I could probably count on both hands the number of PUG horror stories I've had on vet, but they are still outside the norm.

I had one time where I was tanking vet Spindle 2, and we couldn't get past Bloodspawn boss because the DPS were just light / heavy attacking with no skills. I just dipped out.

I DPS'd a vet Selene's Web last night where the tank was whining about the 2nd DPS not being CP160 yet. Said "You shouldn't queue for vet if you're not 160". I replied back "It's Selene's Web. It will be fine." That tank later died to the bear attack in the final boss. I noticed after the fight that he was using dual wield. If you're gonna whine about someone else, make sure your own business is handled correctly. The damage was a little bit low, and I was definitely carrying the weight, but it wasn't too bad.

I also had a run in Arx Corinium the other night where the tank wasn't purposefully fake tanking. He just wasn't good at it. He had about 17k health and was using a 2h. Couldn't withstand the boss, so we ended up kicking him. Low level guy, learning the ropes, I felt kinda bad, but we weren't gonna clear with him tanking.

QuebraRegra

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I was playing on my alt that is my daughters account yesteday and got booted from a dungeon finder group just before we started the last boss. I'm thinking, that's strange, I was pulling my weight, what gives. So I ask one of the dudes.

His response.

We just booted you because our buddy wanted to come in and get the loot.

Yea, apparently they were a 3 man pre-form and all the time had the idea of just making me do all the work and then booting me before the last boss to bring in their buddy.

ZOS response.... What do you think?

Form letter blada blada we do not discuss, we protect all bullies, cheater, and miscreants...... no sorry for your bad time, no, loot, not even a word or two written by a human. Felt like getting a beating on the street, going to a cop to report, and getting another beating.

Just so you know what we think ZOS. We think you never ban anybody for cheating, bullying, or treating players poorly. We think you never take any action of any kind whatsoever. But if I put a screenshot here of my conversation with those jerks that had their name in it you would ban me so fast my head would spin for "naming and shaming". The shame is on you ZOS.

And no, ZOS did not sent me the keys and loot for the ARX pledge I was denied the complete on. They could have, but a person would have had to look at my complaint to do that. No medusa inferno or keys for my little girl. Sorry little one, it might have been your birthday this week but ZOS gift is a big ol turd.

the way you were treated was just plain wrong... I'd be on the lookout for those players...

QuebraRegra

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

preevious wrote: »

I'm always astonished by the pug horror stories I read on the forum.

In vet content, it almost never happens to me.

I could probably count on both hands the number of PUG horror stories I've had on vet, but they are still outside the norm.

I had one time where I was tanking vet Spindle 2, and we couldn't get past Bloodspawn boss because the DPS were just light / heavy attacking with no skills. I just dipped out.

I DPS'd a vet Selene's Web last night where the tank was whining about the 2nd DPS not being CP160 yet. Said "You shouldn't queue for vet if you're not 160". I replied back "It's Selene's Web. It will be fine." That tank later died to the bear attack in the final boss. I noticed after the fight that he was using dual wield. If you're gonna whine about someone else, make sure your own business is handled correctly. The damage was a little bit low, and I was definitely carrying the weight, but it wasn't too bad.

I also had a run in Arx Corinium the other night where the tank wasn't purposefully fake tanking. He just wasn't good at it. He had about 17k health and was using a 2h. Couldn't withstand the boss, so we ended up kicking him. Low level guy, learning the ropes, I felt kinda bad, but we weren't gonna clear with him tanking.

AS healer, I sooo wanted to kick the tank in VET ARX that kept taunting the last boos and keeping her on the land... he also wasn't maintaining well and I had to burn my heals on him. i asked many times on mic for him to move her to the water, but all ignored (DPS underperforming), and about 7 minutes was wasted with barely a scratch on her. Instead of kicking, I ended up just letting them all die, then took her in the water and proceeded to finish her solo. I'm not that great, so that should tell you everything you need to know about the group.

That was VERY frustrating.

Grandchamp1989

Next patch everyone will be between 20-25k hp, everyone will think they're the tank XD

Florial

My PUG experiences have been mostly positive. People may not say much but we get the job done. However, lately I've gotten a few fake tanks in my dailies. If they can pull their weight and contribute to the group, I mostly don't care. One guy we got ran ahead of the group while a few folks were trying to do quests. He must of died on each boss. I was spending more time rezzing than healing. It was awful. My other groupmates tried to kick him but I was too nice to pass the vote to kick. Mistake on my part. After being dead most of the run, he left without a word after the run was over. He was worthless as a tank and DPS.

Kurat

I agree that people who cant fake tank shouldn't do it. But if you have taunt slotted and pull at least 1/3 of the group dps without dying then I see no problem.

QuebraRegra

Florial wrote: »

My PUG experiences have been mostly positive. People may not say much but we get the job done. However, lately I've gotten a few fake tanks in my dailies. If they can pull their weight and contribute to the group, I mostly don't care. One guy we got ran ahead of the group while a few folks were trying to do quests. He must of died on each boss. I was spending more time rezzing than healing. It was awful. My other groupmates tried to kick him but I was too nice to pass the vote to kick. Mistake on my part. After being dead most of the run, he left without a word after the run was over. He was worthless as a tank and DPS.

agreed. I don't mind a fake tank in normal dungeons, as long as the overall DPS compensates. I don't like it when I queue as DPS(usually healer), and I see a low level character getting a beat down, and a fake healer does nothing (I usually try and help with echoing vigor). Nobody wants the lowbee to have a terrible time and quit because somebody fake queued for healer.

I have stopped for a sack or chest as a healer and had the foot racing fools run and wipe... I blame their situational awareness... Which is obviously poor. No doubt they were like "F that healer guy, he's trash".. LOL PUGs.