Fake tanks and toxic players

DarkKnight

If we apparently can't stop people from moonlighting for roles they aren't suited for, can we please at least do something about their toxicity? CP150 player admits he isn't a real tank at the start of DLC dungeon, but then also can't DPS. After wiping several times, I asked him why he even queued at all. This was his colorful response to being called out:
[snip]
[snip]

That's just not an okay way to behave in group.

Zos, if you are going to do basically nothing to stop people from queuing in bad faith, at least manage their otherwise toxic attitudes. I pay to have fun, not to put up with this kind of non-sense.

[Edit to remove images for Profanity and Naming and Shamnig.]

VaranisArano

First off, your image is naming and shaming on the forums. Might want to block out the other player's name.

Second, reporting toxic comments that break the TOS is going to be a lot more effective than posting hatewhispers on the forums for the peanut gallery. If you haven't reported them, I suggest you do so.

When you report a player, ZOS can not only review their behavior during your incident, but also note if there have been past incidents that warrant further discipline. And if you happen to be the first one to report, then your report helps build the case when they get reported the next time. As we know, toxic behavior is often repeated - at CP 150, this player seems to be getting an early start on a rap sheet. So even though you won't hear about the results of ZOS' discipline, reporting toxic behavior does help other players.

renne

Why didn't you kick him at the start of the dungeon when he admitted he was a fake tank then?

GreenHere

Yep, @VaranisArano beat me to it. You'd do well to take down this post entirely, @DarkKnight

Also, you kind of set the tone with "Seriously, if you can't tank and you can't dps..."

I get where you're coming from, but.. ya know. Don't start conversations like that, especially with people who feel it's okay to jump the queue like that; it never ends well. : P

DarkKnight

GreenHere wrote: »

Yep, @VaranisArano beat me to it. You'd do well to take down this post entirely, @DarkKnight

Also, you kind of set the tone with "Seriously, if you can't tank and you can't dps..."

I get where you're coming from, but.. ya know. Don't start conversations like that, especially with people who feel it's okay to jump the queue like that; it never ends well. : P

We shouldn't have to put up with the fake queuing. This behavior should be called out, period. It should not be on me to always turn the other cheek as it were when I get 3 random normals in a row that can't be completed due to fake queues.

Why are you victim blaming and trying to get me to hide the problem, instead of joining me in calling attention to the problem?

If you intentionally join a queue as the wrong role, can't even come close to performing the role, then respond like this when you are called out on it, then you are the problem, not me. I don't have an unlimited amount of time to play, and this is ruining the time I do have.

renne wrote: »

Why didn't you kick him at the start of the dungeon when he admitted he was a fake tank then?

One of the group dropped before we even started over this. I just wanted the skill point for finishing.

VaranisArano wrote: »

First off, your image is naming and shaming on the forums. Might want to block out the other player's name.

Second, reporting toxic comments that break the TOS is going to be a lot more effective than posting hatewhispers on the forums for the peanut gallery. If you haven't reported them, I suggest you do so.

I will edit the images to remove the names.

Edit: I've covered up his name, though I believe he should be held accountable publicly for acting like this. Protecting the identity of someone who behaves this way is just rewarding the crap behavior.

I disagree that it does nothing. It brings visibility to the root of the problem, which is fake queues in the first place, and the kind of players that are doing it.

ThorianB

Instead of berating people for not being up to what you think they should be, just vote kick. You basically attacked him for not playing to your standards and then when he got defensive, you named and shamed him on this forum. Ask yourself which one of you is being the toxic one here. Him for not being very good or you for making him feel like dirt for not being very good?

This right here is why i can't wait for companions.

DarkKnight

ThorianB wrote: »

Instead of berating people for not being up to what you think they should be, just vote kick. You basically attacked him for not playing to your standards and then when he got defensive, you named and shamed him on this forum. Ask yourself which one of you is being the toxic one here. Him for not being very good or you for making him feel like dirt for not being very good?

This right here is why i can't wait for companions.

When the dungeon started, and it's a DLC, he already comes in saying 'Aggro is going to be weird because I have my gear for soloing dungeons equipped', so this wasn't an accident on his part.

I attacked him? Really dude? I asked him, legitimately, why he queued for tank if he knew can't tank and can't burn down bosses fast enough for it not to matter. That's not an attack, that's a reflex to having my time wasted repeatedly by people who come in knowing in advance that they are completely unsuited. I still want to know what makes people think it's okay to keep doing this to the other 3 players just to get a faster queue? Maybe you can answer since you are coming to his defense.

My only 'standard' is joining queues in good faith and not coming in expecting everyone else to carry you. That's not unreasonable. If you need a carry, join a guild or go get some friends. At least ASK the people in your group if they mind or are even able to carry you. Don't simply ambush a bunch of strangers just trying to get through a daily, and expect that they can just adjust so you can get an easy clear.

The net result of this was my friend logging off for the night in disgust before we even got started, and it taking 45 minutes to finish a dungeon that should have been done in 20, along with all the repairs. None of that was my fault.

PaddyVu

When i queue as fake tank in vet dlc dungeon and say fake tank, they immediately kick me, but they dont know i'm the one who can solo entire hm, well from now on, they wont see me anymore, i will do it myself
The only thing that can prevent me from soloing dungeon is high ping, sometimes server act weird and i got 999+ ping, that mean even nFG1 i still die, everything is freezing and blinking ^^ maybe give him a few time to try as fake tank, 11 people already waste their time on me in vHRC when i try to tank with 9-10k hp at last boss and now i'm master at tanking it ! I love those patient people in our guild.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After a quick review, we would like to remind everyone that Cursing and Profanity, as well as Naming and Shaming, are both violations of the Community Guidelines, and are stated as follows:

• Cursing and Profanity: Purposefully circumventing our forum profanity filter or otherwise cursing or using profanity is not permitted on our forums. Our forums have a profanity filter in place for the purpose of keeping profanity off our forums — please help us keep the ESO community constructive and profanity-free by respecting that filter.
• Naming-and-Shaming: We do not allow posts or threads that are created for the purpose of “naming-and-shaming” other community member(s). “Naming-and-shaming” is the act of creating a post to call out an individual or group by name, and making them the subject of public accusation, ridicule and/or shaming. Generally, naming-and-shaming involves an in-game situation and/or Terms of Service violation, which the ESO Community Team is unable to assist with. A certain amount of rivalry and competitive razzing is healthy for any game community, especially one with PVP elements, but naming-and-shaming goes well beyond that. It typically elevates to a point where the subject feels legitimately harassed. We believe that naming-and-shaming posts and threads can be abused and are very harmful to the community. We also don't feel that publicly calling out or accusing others by name on our forums is in spirit of the game or our community. If you genuinely believe someone has violated our Terms of Service, you should report them in-game via the support interface — do not bring the situation onto the official ESO community forums.

In the future, if anyone feels a player should be reported, we ask that they be reported properly, using the in-game report feature. If you are on PC, please follow the instruction found here. If you are on console, please follow the instruction found here.

Moving forward, we ask that all posts be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the rules. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

GreenHere

@DarkKnight , I'm not against you or victim blaming. I agree with you in principle, just not the way you approached this.

What I was saying was that Varanis was right; your post was in violation of the forum's rules in at least two separate ways at once, and you should have edited them to avoid being censored or having the thread deleted entirely. You're fortunate @ZOS_GregoryV didn't do that right off the bat (thank you for allowing the discussion to continue, Gregory!). We just were trying to warn you to get your images suitable for being allowed to stay up, but now they're outright removed. You can't have images that include prohibited language, nor can you have player / character names visible. Those are the rules.

Secondly, I'm on your side; fake tanks that won't do the job they signed up for are a blight on the community. Not only are their actions disruptive for other players (as you found out), but too often their attitudes are also ranging from poor to atrocious (as you also found out). I bugs me pretty badly when I am confronted with this too. I'm all for calling them out collectively and I'd love for a solution to eliminate this problem to be found.

But you can't call out individuals. ZOS's rules won't allow it, but more importantly it's just an exceptionally bad idea to incite "internet (mob) justice" upon people. Even if no one takes it too far (and someone almost always takes it too far!) the sheer amount of people dogpiling "justice" onto said offender can get wildly disproportionate scarily quick. It's not safe, it's not fair, and it's just plain not wise. Which is mainly why that rule exists.


All that said? The way you talked to this person put them on the offensive. You weren't wrong to call them out, but the way you did it made it a lot more likely that they'd get nasty in return. That's not victim blaming, that's pointing out your share of the accountability in how the exchange went. You're not wrong in feeling like that guy screwed up your dungeon run, but approaching it the way you did is essentially asking for an argument. You were mildly rude (which is pretty understandable, given the ordeal), but people like that dude are pretty much always going to kick it up four notches at once and go way over the top toxic when engaged. It was fairly predictable; I knew more or less what he wrote in reply to your opening sentence in the chat before I even got past what you said.

I was simply trying to give you the helpful advice that someone once (okay, more than once) had to give me -- You have nothing to gain by engaging these people that way. (Or in any way, more often than not...)

I could've worded my original post better, but I wrongfully assumed my meaning was clear without really going into it. I hope this helps more.

oscarovegren

Was it a vet or normal dungeon? If it was a normal dungeon then whatever. You can use 4 DDs in every normal DLC dungeon

Valagash

oscarovegren wrote: »

Was it a vet or normal dungeon? If it was a normal dungeon then whatever. You can use 4 DDs in every normal DLC dungeon

Yes you can do, but than go to your zone chat and look for another 3 DD and than join your random queue.

There are a lot of people out there which try a MMO or there role for the first time and want to play a normal group composition and enjoy the dungeon. Or in general just enjoy dungeon designs and encounter.

If you want to rush or don´t play as a group because you are in a rush, than as above. Look for 3 other DDs and than queue for your random

DarkKnight

I did edit the names out of the images well before it was taken down. I can only assume then that it was done as a response to the profanity in them.

That being said, he put me on the offensive the moment he popped in as a tank and said he wasn't a real tank. It's an overtly offensive act. I do not accept any share of 'the blame' for asking a legitimate question responding to his choice to queue knowing his inability to participate in the group in any meaningful context. The burden shouldn't be on me to pretend like it isn't frustrating to deal with a not insignificant portion of the player base doing this.

No, asking someone WHY they chose to 'do a bad thing' does not shift blame on to me for them responding with hostility, vulgarity, then harrassment with the follow whisper he sent. Something needed to be said to him. The default shouldn't be regular players doing the right thing having to smile while being fed a turd sandwich repeatedly in randoms because some people can't be bothered to wait 10 minutes.

The DPS queue isn't that long, there's no reason people need to be moonlighting except for selfishness and impatience. The issue is the risk/reward for fake tanks/queues favors this behavior instead of punishing it. MMO's are literally just layers of game mechanics designed to shape player behavior. If Zos is doing absolutely nothing to mitigate this problem, the failure is on them. There needs to be a system that allows players to specify fake queuing as a reason when kicking a player that will dramatically increase queue wait times for players that do this.

zaria

oscarovegren wrote: »

Was it a vet or normal dungeon? If it was a normal dungeon then whatever. You can use 4 DDs in every normal DLC dungeon

CP 150 so obvious normal. The idea of fake tanking an vet dlc is pretty stupid anyway.

And yes 4 decent DD can do normal DLC. Most CP 150 is not decent and he probably had horrible gear.
Some who fake will become toxic then called out.
Solution is just to vote kick.

LashanW

Vote kick.
If they start hate messaging you, report them (via in-game report) for harassment and put them on ignore list.

Grandchamp1989

DarkKnight wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Instead of berating people for not being up to what you think they should be, just vote kick. You basically attacked him for not playing to your standards and then when he got defensive, you named and shamed him on this forum. Ask yourself which one of you is being the toxic one here. Him for not being very good or you for making him feel like dirt for not being very good?

This right here is why i can't wait for companions.

When the dungeon started, and it's a DLC, he already comes in saying 'Aggro is going to be weird because I have my gear for soloing dungeons equipped', so this wasn't an accident on his part.

I attacked him? Really dude? I asked him, legitimately, why he queued for tank if he knew can't tank and can't burn down bosses fast enough for it not to matter. That's not an attack, that's a reflex to having my time wasted repeatedly by people who come in knowing in advance that they are completely unsuited. I still want to know what makes people think it's okay to keep doing this to the other 3 players just to get a faster queue? Maybe you can answer since you are coming to his defense.

My only 'standard' is joining queues in good faith and not coming in expecting everyone else to carry you. That's not unreasonable. If you need a carry, join a guild or go get some friends. At least ASK the people in your group if they mind or are even able to carry you. Don't simply ambush a bunch of strangers just trying to get through a daily, and expect that they can just adjust so you can get an easy clear.

The net result of this was my friend logging off for the night in disgust before we even got started, and it taking 45 minutes to finish a dungeon that should have been done in 20, along with all the repairs. None of that was my fault.

That's the responses you get on this wonderful forum.

People are screwing you over left, right and center and if you point it out then you're the aggressor XD

I remember my GF making a thread in here about the toxicity of being told to go get *insert disease*.

She choose to leave the dungeon so she was apparently at fault.

I swear you could make a thread about someone walking up to you and, unprovocingly, kicking your dog only to have someone be like:
"But.. Did you look at him funny?"

I have completely given up.
The Community defends bad behavior, and Zos doesn't seem to recognize the problem.

Zer0_CooL

DarkKnight wrote: »

...After wiping several times, I asked him why he even queued at all. ...

To imply that a player with low CP and experience shouldn't queue for a dungeon at all, instead of giving him advise, can be regarded as toxic behaviour. Maybe you try to get off your high horse and offer help next time.

jle30303

Somebody claims that they're in their gear for "soloing" dungeons... BUT... if you can't tank AND you can't dps... then you ain't going to solo a dungeon.

stewhead2ub17_ESO

@VaranisArano gave you some sound advice. You're frustrated. I get it. But to continue to stamp your feet because you feel people are not rallying to your cause detracts from your point. After all, you continued to try the dungeon after he informed you at the start. You should have kicked him or left. I get that's a pain but sometimes it happens.

Viewsfrom6ix

How many of threads are we gonna get about fake roles?

ZOS already placed solutions for it. Vote kick or make your own group.

Since we know this is a normal dungeon. As long as there is one decent dps, it can be easily completed. Work your way to be that one decent dps and carry your groups XD

oscarovegren

Valagash wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

Was it a vet or normal dungeon? If it was a normal dungeon then whatever. You can use 4 DDs in every normal DLC dungeon

Yes you can do, but than go to your zone chat and look for another 3 DD and than join your random queue.

There are a lot of people out there which try a MMO or there role for the first time and want to play a normal group composition and enjoy the dungeon. Or in general just enjoy dungeon designs and encounter.

If you want to rush or don´t play as a group because you are in a rush, than as above. Look for 3 other DDs and than queue for your random

Then do veteran mode. In normal mode there is no need of either tank or heal. I cant blame any DD for quene as tank/healer on normal

Ringing_Nirnroot

Maybe find a guild and some friends to do these dungeons with to not experience this? You can’t control what other people do, I don’t support it but still, whatever happens, happens. Vote to kick and move on

ThorianB

DarkKnight wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Instead of berating people for not being up to what you think they should be, just vote kick. You basically attacked him for not playing to your standards and then when he got defensive, you named and shamed him on this forum. Ask yourself which one of you is being the toxic one here. Him for not being very good or you for making him feel like dirt for not being very good?

This right here is why i can't wait for companions.

When the dungeon started, and it's a DLC, he already comes in saying 'Aggro is going to be weird because I have my gear for soloing dungeons equipped', so this wasn't an accident on his part.

I attacked him? Really dude? I asked him, legitimately, why he queued for tank if he knew can't tank and can't burn down bosses fast enough for it not to matter. That's not an attack, that's a reflex to having my time wasted repeatedly by people who come in knowing in advance that they are completely unsuited. I still want to know what makes people think it's okay to keep doing this to the other 3 players just to get a faster queue? Maybe you can answer since you are coming to his defense.

My only 'standard' is joining queues in good faith and not coming in expecting everyone else to carry you. That's not unreasonable. If you need a carry, join a guild or go get some friends. At least ASK the people in your group if they mind or are even able to carry you. Don't simply ambush a bunch of strangers just trying to get through a daily, and expect that they can just adjust so you can get an easy clear.

The net result of this was my friend logging off for the night in disgust before we even got started, and it taking 45 minutes to finish a dungeon that should have been done in 20, along with all the repairs. None of that was my fault.

1. Your OP didn't show 'Aggro is going to be weird because I have my gear for soloing dungeons equipped'
2. If you knew this at the beginning and it wasn't acceptable, you should have vote kicked.
3. If you decided later on it wasn't acceptable you should of just told him it's not working out and vote kicked or just vote kicked.
4. He warned you at the beginning of the dungeon. WARNED you! But you berated him anyway.

As far as his tanking and DPS, i don't know how good they were but i do know people tend to get ridiculously high requirements for both. I mostly play heals in a dungeon and know that a bad or fake tank makes healing multiples worse than a good tank, but i would never berate someone half way through the dungeon for being terrible when they admitted they would probably be below expectations in the beginning.

He might have been wrong for queuing as tank with a build that was built for solo, but imo, you were wrong for berating him for it after he gave you fair warning. But the truth is you didn't want to wait for a replacement tank, so you choose to let him tank anyway and then attacked him for it when he didn't meet your standards.

Do you not see how you took a less than ideal situation and made it much much worse for everyone?

MalEducado

its call "CARRY TIME"¡¡¡ game base on make carrys constantly... thats why zos keeping nerfing the dificulty of the game since 1 year ago

Sarannah

There have been many threads about toxic players, but the problem is... toxic players on the forums defend the toxicity. And as long as ZOS does nothing to keep toxicity in check, they can do what they want.

ZOS does not realize those toxic players are costing them more money from new players, than it would cost them if they would have simply banned that one toxic player. As one toxic player affects three people at one time, every time they queue for dungeons!

And like some suggest, you could have have kicked him... well, that does not work. They would just be put in the queue for a new tank again. So they get double DPS long queues, because one person was being toxic/fake roled. And the toxic fake role player, simply gets an instant tank queue again.

Make sure to report toxic players!

BlueRaven

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

DarkKnight wrote: »

...After wiping several times, I asked him why he even queued at all. ...

To imply that a player with low CP and experience shouldn't queue for a dungeon at all, instead of giving him advise, can be regarded as toxic behaviour. Maybe you try to get off your high horse and offer help next time.

Here is how I would help. Tell them not to sign up to be a tank if they are not prepared to actually tank. Then boot them.

This person who signed up to tank appears to have known EXCTLY what they were doing. They signed up as a tank in the hopes they would group with some people that could carry them. If a player is new to a role, fine wiping a few times is no biggie. But purposely sabotaging the group is unacceptable behavior.

BlueRaven

“Make your own group” is not a solution to the fake tank issue. It feels a bit like the old vaudeville joke;

Patient: “Doctor, it hurts when I talk.”

Doctor: “Then stop talking.”

It’s not actually fixing the problem.

mobicera

So you failed a normal dungeon and just blamed a low cp because they weren't a true tank?
It's normal if the dungeon failed don't think for a second it's just the "toxic" persons fault.
There isn't a single normal dungeon that doesn't have mechanics preventing soloing that can't be soloed by a reasonably prepared character.
So what this tells me is that you failed and got mad at another and dumped all the blame on them without even looking at yourself.
I mean it looks to me like no one in the group was actually any good and just wanted a scapegoat so the "fake tank" took the spot.

Mythreindeer

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

DarkKnight wrote: »

...After wiping several times, I asked him why he even queued at all. ...

To imply that a player with low CP and experience shouldn't queue for a dungeon at all, instead of giving him advise, can be regarded as toxic behaviour. Maybe you try to get off your high horse and offer help next time.

I think the OPs response to the low CP player was appropriate. The guy knowingly queued for a role he was not suited for, likely hoping for a freebie carry, and wasted everyone’s time. I don’t get why these peeps should be given a pass on their juvenile behavior. Accountability for one’s actions and respect for others are important concepts for people of any age.

Viewsfrom6ix

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Make your own group” is not a solution to the fake tank issue. It feels a bit like the old vaudeville joke;

Patient: “Doctor, it hurts when I talk.”

Doctor: “Then stop talking.”

It’s not actually fixing the problem.

Not a valid comparison. It is more like stop talking in a way it hurts and talk in a way it doesn't hurt.

The problem exists because of DPS queue takes too long. This is because there are more DPS players in the game and the large amount of low DPS in random groups thus forcing real tanks to not participate in group finders.

It is hard to solve that without increasing the queue time even longer. The system that we have right now allows people to play any role they want and be successful. And pre-made groups allow players that don't want a random group/can't carry fake roles.

SpiritofESO

As I just posted moments ago, the only time you hear from ZOS on a topic is when you violate the "Terms of Service."

The ISSUE was about FAKE TANKS -- and, since I have a REAL TANK (and Healer and Damage Dealer), I agree that this is a real issue.

Nevertheless, instead of opining about the subject of the thread, we get yet another lecture about "Terms of Service" and being "polite."

*sigh* Okay. Thanks.



Would love to see the following response someday:

"We are aware of this issue and are taking steps to rectify it as soon as possible. Thanks for your comments."