Heavy Armor Is Dead, Long Live Medium Armor

relentless_turnip

BlueRaven wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

... we are talking about balancing an mmo 😂 we are not talking about what is physically possible. Otherwise we may as well delete all magicka classes as magic isn't real...

Reading this baffles me 😂

What players are saying is that heavy over performs in PvP as you don't have to give up much damage to gain a lot of defence. PVE players are saying don't make it harder to tank by reducing heavy armor mitigation.

The solution is simple make heavy armor mitigate more from both types of damage with a damage penalty per piece so you greatly reduce your damage by equipping it. This is again not because you would in real life do less damage in heavy armor, but because we are talking about balance in a fantasy game. If you want to continue to do damage, but look like a knight that is what the outfit station is for👍

Why do pve tanks need to be punished for what is happening in cyrodiil? Just put a battle spirit penalty on it and call it a day.
We already have a tanking shortage in pve, making tanks do less damage just will make it worse.
Heavy armor dps needs a buff not a nerf.

So you are one of the few tanks who are happy to receive more damage next patch from magic based attacks? I was suggesting heavy has more mitigation and less damage. Taking more damage was the pve complaint with the armor changes. Heavy armor doing too much damage whilst having high mitigation was the PvP complaint... The solution seems pretty clear to me...

No it is all awful. All of it. Tanks don’t need to take more damage, nor do they need to do less dps.
Tanks in pve are hurting. Few want to play one, and making life more difficult for them will not spawn more of them.

Here is a tip for pvp. If heavy armor is so great for pvp, then WEAR HEAVY ARMOR. Tanks in pve don’t have a choice, you have to wear heavy. Pvp can do anything they want, so wear heavy armor already if it’s so great.

Heavy armor is better then light and medium in pvp? So what?
Is arming a weapon better then having no weapon in pvp? Do we need to nerf all weapons for pve because unarmed is underperforming in pvp? Just adjust your build and go.

Apparently it’s ok to suggest to tanks that they need to carry around 2-4 types of gear to do things in pve. But asking pvpers to adapt the one armor they wear is out of bounds.

PvP has a variety of playstyles that are viable and the potential to be equally viable to heavy. Saying just wear heavy isn't anymore of a solution to a PvP player than me saying just play a DD if you don't like the heavy changes. As it is essentially the same thing.

It's not an issue with adapting we all have to do that every 3 months. It's a discussion about balance across the spectrum of the game. I am suggesting a compromise and you're suggestion is play a tank in PvP, even though in the same breath you are saying that notion is so undesirable in PVE.

I have pve builds for pve content and PvP builds for PvP. You can't expect the Devs to balance a game around being able to do all content and all roles without changing any aspect of your build. Carrying multiple sets to achieve this is an accepted standard... If you can mitigate the damage for your group, I don't think a drop in your own DPS is an issue.

honey_badger82

With the new system adding 1000 damage to both physical and magicka there would be no reason for me to wear more than 1pc of medium armor if not for the roll dodge penalty. Before my tank most affected by these changes wore 5 medium for the 15% damage boost as there are no proc sets that would enable me to play as wanted to offset that damage loss in PvE.

The penalties to light and heavy armor needs to go away, the nerf to Resolve needs to go away (it should be buffed by the amount it is currently nerfed). Buff crit and pen that light gives and buff crit and damage boost that medium gives (I would suggest the buff to these be an increase for each piece over 5, i.e. 6th and 7th piece of med armor each add 3% instead of 2%). Bring the offensive pen in CP 2.0 back in line with CP 1.0, we are literally losing more than half the pen we got with nothing being given back. Stop malcaths band from buffing proc sets, just wpn and skill damage and have it kill crit healing too.

These changes IMO would make it easier to negate the mitigation heavy gives you in PvP plus increase the gap in damage output for the other two weights to make them more appealing. This would also improve the QoL in PvE not just for tanks but for all roles.

xaraan

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I've tanked all the content in the game in vet HMs and no, you can't survive every situation in medium.

I meant less about wearing Medium when tanking, and just wearing Alkosh, i.e. not wearing a set which gives defensive buffs. Now if you want to run Alkosh on a tank, you have to run 3x Infused Damage glyphs (or 3x Bloodthirsty with whatever glyphs if that works?), losing the ability to run Mag Regen glyphs, or Bracing glyphs, etc., which will be even more desired with the increased roll-dodge costs, etc.

That's great if beginner tanks are no longer commanded to go farm Alkosh before they can even think about calling themselves a tank, and it's great you can reach the Pen Cap easily without it now, I assume on account of Minor Breach on Pierce Armor and the now unique Breach potions? I had thought they should really change Tremorscale to also give Spell Pen.

I've wondered what the devs thought about the long-standing idea that there were only 2 tanking sets, Ebon and Alkosh, all of the rest aren't even worth looking at and if you bring them to a group we'll kick you, and whether this was related to the low popularity of tanking, because if you wanted to just play a PvE Tank, you didn't get to participate in any of the theorycrafting, testing, experimentation, none of that, it was just go farm Alkosh and Ebon and then wait for us to be ready once we're done with all our cool theorycrafting and testing.

I agree about the tremorscale change, it would make more sense. Unless you have a heavy stam group (rare in end game trials) it's kind of a bum set now.

As for building up damage to make alkosh useful. As miserable a job as tanking is these days, I wouldn't even bother with the job anymore for a group that wanted me to stack all that damage to make it useful on a tank and give up all that you mentioned. I'm sure someone does it or tries it, but the change was meant to shift it from tanks to dps in my opinion. At best in some trials you could turn the off tank into a quasi dps/tank to use it, which has been a thing even before the change.

And a side-note, if medium became a norm for tanking and it went to dodge rolling over blocking I'd lose what little desire I have left for tanking in PvE. 1. I hate the idea of being a rolly polly on principle. I don't mind occasional mechanics you have to dodge roll for tanking, but having it be the main defense would be stupid IMO. Even the last boss of vKA-hm, you have to dodge roll every major attack in execute and it's nothing but annoying - mostly b/c of the biggest issue: server stability. Blocking already has some iffy moments after they made changes to it a few patches ago where it just doesn't work, but I've seen too many successful dodges fail in trials b/c server says no. It would just make the job more annoying and grueling than it already is and they don't need that in PvE tanking.

But as for sets, yea, we don't even need our tanks in alkosh for trials anymore. In fact if we wore a medium set it would be powerful assault. But for heavy, beside alkosh, Yoln. is a go-to and also galenwe is actually useful now and a few other heavy sets can be useful in comparison to what you get over what Alkosh would do on a tank. The dungeon set coming out that buffs the group ult could be useful as well. They've definitely done a lot to move away from the Ebon/Alkosh only meta which is nice as a tank to see. But the changes to heavy, when we know they will not make adjustments to old mechanics to fix things in trials and dungeons, do not look anything except annoying to deal with.

There are much better ways they could have balanced the armor and they've failed to use any of the better ideas mentioned in various places in forums. If you know the game, you can read all the input and figure out what is best to try IMO. But it's not the first time. When they balanced racials, everyone lavished praise about how well balanced they were except a few of us that kept pointing out the shortcomings. And it was drowned out by "better than it was at least" chorus. But it was 3 passives on 10 races, shouldn't have been that hard to truly balance. Much like the armor changes. And guess what? Patches later, they have made some of the changes to racials. As with many changes they fight in the past, they didn't want to admit they are wrong with their ideas, but down the road end up seeing the need to actually improve the game instead of hang onto their concept. Personally, I'd rather than happen during PTS cycle instead of us having to wait a year or two for them to start fixing the armor changes they are currently messing up.

DreadDaedroth

Simply don't add any silly penalties like the stealth or magic damage one.

Elvenheart

Daemonai wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Anyone that PVP's at a high level knows that almost anyone that's not a ganker or mag sorc is probably wearing heavy armor if they are serious about PVP. There are some exceptions to this, but in general heavy armor dominates the highest level of pvp.

In my view, as long as the principal objective in Cyro is knocking down walls and doors and flipping flags, Heavy will always be the most popular choice there. This is one reason why I'm very much opposed to nerfing damage output in Heavy. It's just going to slow things down.

Another view is, so what? Only 2/12 players in "high level" PvE groups wear Heavy, so there's the balance.

Yeah thats the reason I dont want to see a damage reduction either. 3% move speed reduction per piece of heavy would be enough IMO. Youre a juggernaut but slow as hell.

I can already imagine everyone in the group having to wait for the tank as he slowly inches his way to the objective.

Just imagining this in my head made me both giggle and wince at the same time 😂

“Wait, where’s the tank?”

“Back near the starting point. We all ran off and left him!”

remosito

there are pve tanks running around while questing in heavy?

mind blown...

I have 6 tanks and 4 healers. They all have an extra set for that.

tomofhyrule

remosito wrote: »

there are pve tanks running around while questing in heavy?

mind blown...

I have 6 tanks and 4 healers. They all have an extra set for that.

I quest in heavy. But then again I kinda like taking my time to enjoy the environment and not flatten everything by looking at it. I don't mind that I need to hit a wolf three times before it dies. Maybe that's why I don't feel the need to complain about overland difficulty. If I wanted to min max my deeps, I wouldn't be in heavy. I'd rather take my time, so I'm not. Actually, I'm trying to max my survival so I can stand there holding block and have time to line up pictures with the UI off instead of fighting back. My screenshots folder is screaming under the weight of my questing... I can easily fill in 500+ pictures in a few hours.

I was scared of the armor changes at first, but after looking on PTS it doesn't look like too bad of a thing yet. I'll need to see how I handle dungeons when the update lands, but at least it doesn't feel like the sky is falling anymore.

And about the speed thing? If the people in the dungeon want a tank, they can wait for me, not the other way around. It's already obnoxious enough to sprint all the way there and then have 0 stam for blocking.

remosito

tomofhyrule wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

there are pve tanks running around while questing in heavy?

mind blown...

I have 6 tanks and 4 healers. They all have an extra set for that.

I quest in heavy. But then again I kinda like taking my time to enjoy the environment and not flatten everything by looking at it. I don't mind that I need to hit a wolf three times before it dies. Maybe that's why I don't feel the need to complain about overland difficulty. If I wanted to min max my deeps, I wouldn't be in heavy. I'd rather take my time, so I'm not. Actually, I'm trying to max my survival so I can stand there holding block and have time to line up pictures with the UI off instead of fighting back. My screenshots folder is screaming under the weight of my questing... I can easily fill in 500+ pictures in a few hours.

I was scared of the armor changes at first, but after looking on PTS it doesn't look like too bad of a thing yet. I'll need to see how I handle dungeons when the update lands, but at least it doesn't feel like the sky is falling anymore.

And about the speed thing? If the people in the dungeon want a tank, they can wait for me, not the other way around. It's already obnoxious enough to sprint all the way there and then have 0 stam for blocking.

Awesome! I salute your Zen monk level patience :-)

I do like taking my time too when questing for looking at things (loved getting Master Angler for really appreciating the scenery) and listening to the quest givers. It's just that not taking three times as long to actually kill stuff (which is trivial in most cases wearing heavy or medium. and rather repetitive and dull in the end) frees up more time for the enjoyable things.

Kinda what I dig most about my e-mountainbike. I get up the hills not only easier but as well a lot faster and get farther. Giving me more time to stop at the nice view places and just chill.

Hear you on the dungeon tank sprint and sta issues. Which is why I really dig my templar tank with repentance. I usually am full sta after fights and sprinting a bit is a non-issue...on all others it's annoying....

katorga

Elvenheart wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Anyone that PVP's at a high level knows that almost anyone that's not a ganker or mag sorc is probably wearing heavy armor if they are serious about PVP. There are some exceptions to this, but in general heavy armor dominates the highest level of pvp.

In my view, as long as the principal objective in Cyro is knocking down walls and doors and flipping flags, Heavy will always be the most popular choice there. This is one reason why I'm very much opposed to nerfing damage output in Heavy. It's just going to slow things down.

Another view is, so what? Only 2/12 players in "high level" PvE groups wear Heavy, so there's the balance.

Yeah thats the reason I dont want to see a damage reduction either. 3% move speed reduction per piece of heavy would be enough IMO. Youre a juggernaut but slow as hell.

I can already imagine everyone in the group having to wait for the tank as he slowly inches his way to the objective.

Just imagining this in my head made me both giggle and wince at the same time 😂

“Wait, where’s the tank?”

“Back near the starting point. We all ran off and left him!”

Well the forums were complaining about the "speed run" mania after the transmute cap was changed.

This solves that.

Opalblade

DPS: Tanks should be unviable for questing/overland content/soloing things/anything that doesn't revolve around giving me buffs!

Also DPS: Ugh, these dungeon queues are too long. Why are there so few tanks in this game?

BlueRaven

Opalblade wrote: »

DPS: Tanks should be unviable for questing/overland content/soloing things/anything that doesn't revolve around giving me buffs!

Also DPS: Ugh, these dungeon queues are too long. Why are there so few tanks in this game?

Yup, the community is great at thinking up ways to make tanking as painful as possible. Then they complain about “fake tanks” and long queues.

Maybe someone needs to start a thread about how to increase the amount of players playing tanks.

honey_badger82

I ran castle thorn on normal as a dps and our tank was a 2h/2h melee setup with 0 taunts. The boss fights were so chaotic as there was no control of agro and our healer and other dps were pretty squishy so I spent half my time rezzing one or the other in boss fights over dps because alone our "tank" needed all his resources to stay alive and even then was a rapidly losing task without the healer.

I texted in the group chat that the dungeon wasnt a "fake tank" type of dungeon (the guy qued specifically for the dungeon to farm crimson). The dude replies with "now you complain" (this was after talfyg) and then after finishing the dungeon with the same chaos on final boss as all others he goes "fake tank that!". He completely thought because he could survive and we could finish the dungeon he wasn't doing anything wrong. No one likes dying 3-5 times each boss fight because a fake tank doesnt even have the courtesy of at least running a taunt.

Fake tanking is really only ok in a preformed group who knows what they are getting into whether they can actually handle the dungeon or not. These heavy armor nerfs and cons are just going to increase the fake tanks in random que by who knows how many fold.

Firstmep

BlueRaven wrote: »

Opalblade wrote: »

DPS: Tanks should be unviable for questing/overland content/soloing things/anything that doesn't revolve around giving me buffs!

Also DPS: Ugh, these dungeon queues are too long. Why are there so few tanks in this game?

Yup, the community is great at thinking up ways to make tanking as painful as possible. Then they complain about “fake tanks” and long queues.

Maybe someone needs to start a thread about how to increase the amount of players playing tanks.

Well I still see people run multiple self defensive setson tanks in easy 4 player dungeons, when it's really not needed.

Also overland content is so brain dead easy you can literally swap out a single 5 pc set and just faceroll everything.
It's not like tanks are forced to play with 50k resistances and 0 damage when they're by themselves.

I have both necro and warden tanks for pve(4 man and trials), and just chuck on vo if I want to do some quests on that specific character, and frankly even that is unneeded.

Integral1900

All this business about heavy armour wearing characters not being allowed to do damage I would like to politely say no way in hell!

Historically, and in any plausible fantasy realm, you give your best armour to your best troops.

If movement and agility are impeded by said armour, then either your warrior need to start their training earlier or the armourer is incompetent.

These are the only two possible answers to that situation.

If you find yourself on the battlefield in the real world or in any remotely logical fantasy world while wearing nothing but leather armour, it’s probably because somebody considers you to be disposable

I like my heavy armour and my two-handed weapon, if these changes mean that me and my friends cannot do veteran content anymore then so be it, I will change to doing normal. I enjoy my play style and I have no intention of changing it just because of some preposterous Hollywood style concept of armour

Also, the changes do not agree with established lore. Heavy armour has routinely been described as more resistant to magic because of its mass, the materials used to make it, and their association with the bones of the world. Heavy armour should be more resilient to magic not less

remosito

l

BlueRaven wrote: »

Opalblade wrote: »

DPS: Tanks should be unviable for questing/overland content/soloing things/anything that doesn't revolve around giving me buffs!

Also DPS: Ugh, these dungeon queues are too long. Why are there so few tanks in this game?

Yup, the community is great at thinking up ways to make tanking as painful as possible. Then they complain about “fake tanks” and long queues.

Maybe someone needs to start a thread about how to increase the amount of players playing tanks.

scaling cp in new system based on xp gained so far would help. instead. of ignoring/throwing out 60% of it.

more players solidly in horizontal, multirole specc territory.

Sangwyne

relentless_turnip wrote: »

So you are one of the few tanks who are happy to receive more damage next patch from magic based attacks? I was suggesting heavy has more mitigation and less damage. Taking more damage was the pve complaint with the armor changes. Heavy armor doing too much damage whilst having high mitigation was the PvP complaint... The solution seems pretty clear to me...

Heavy armor doesn't even give damage. It has exactly zero damage related passives compared to Medium or Light as an opportunity cost that it pays in exchange for its durability, and now its mitigation is being nerfed next patch - maybe Heavy should grant damage if Medium is going to provide more damage reduction against Magic while still providing its damage and mobility passives, neither of which Heavy ever had access to.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So @relentless_turnip , would you say Heavy Armor is overperforming?

@Urzigurumash On live yes, partly due to malacath.

So you recognize that Malacath is where the damage is coming from and rather than address the issue directly, you want tanks to be caught in the crossfire? Nerfing Heavy without making the nerfs through Battle Spirit hurts tanks in PvE who are not overperforming at all, nerfing Malacath only affects these specific Heavy armor builds in PvP that you mention are using Malacath to gain free damage without paying an opportunity cost for durability.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Here is a tip for pvp. If heavy armor is so great for pvp, then WEAR HEAVY ARMOR. Tanks in pve don’t have a choice, you have to wear heavy. Pvp can do anything they want, so wear heavy armor already if it’s so great.

Apparently it’s ok to suggest to tanks that they need to carry around 2-4 types of gear to do things in pve. But asking pvpers to adapt the one armor they wear is out of bounds.

I don't know how many times I've heard the argument that in order to do overland content I would have to switch to either Medium or Light armor, as if Heavy armor was only something I was allowed to wear in Vet DLC dungeons and trials. Now we are hearing that rather than take their own advice and swap to what they claim to be the meta choice for PvP, players there want Heavy nerfed so that Medium and Light armor can once again be the default option. Why is Heavy not allowed to be a viable pick in either PvE or PvP?

manny254 wrote: »

If you are trying to do PVE dps in heavy, you are in the wrong build.

There's that argument I was referencing. Maybe we should start saying that if you are trying to tank through other player's damage in Medium/Light, you are in the wrong build. Medium and Light have mobility passives allowing them to flee from engagements far more easily than players in Heavy, that should be how they avoid damage, by positioning themselves.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Yup, the community is great at thinking up ways to make tanking as painful as possible. Then they complain about “fake tanks” and long queues.

Maybe someone needs to start a thread about how to increase the amount of players playing tanks.

I have no doubt that when these changes go through, there will be more fake tanks and longer queues than ever before due to Heavy armor simply not being a viable choice. What's the point in having multiple different penalties just to be best in slot only for tanking physical damage, when we could swap to Medium armor, take less magic damage, get more block cost reduction of all things, have better damage and mobility and stealth AND sustain, and pay zero cost in doing so?

Heavy wasn't the only victim of these changes, either; Light armor users now take increased physical damage when their armor already gives the least physical damage reduction and Stamina builds are already the default choice in PvP. Somehow Medium escaped completely unscathed with zero penalties whatsoever, and is now the best in slot for permablocking, stealth, mobility, damage, and sustain, while taking the same magic damage as Light due to higher base resistances. Where are the drawbacks, where is the opportunity cost that other armor users have to pay?

relentless_turnip

Heavy armor meta was an issue before malacath, it is now a bigger issue because of it. I do recognise that yes.

My point about heavy armor was made clear in the context of what it was responding to. It is that the penalties, instead of addressing the complaints of PvP players actually just gave tanks something to complain about as well. It's actually objectively better in PvP than it was before.

There are no bonuses to damage by wearing heavy, but there no penalties either and certainly not a enough damage in medium or light to justify making the choice to wear them over heavy. My suggestion was made in the context of complaints from pve and PvP. Simply put IMO heavy should mitigate a lot more damage from all sources, but do a lot less damage in return.

Alternatively medium and light could do more damage. Realistically if this is going to be per piece then each piece of heavy would need to nullify damage bonuses gained through the other armor types in some way.

Sangwyne

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Heavy armor meta was an issue before malacath, it is now a bigger issue because of it. I do recognise that yes.

Many things have changed in this game since Malacath was introduced, I doubt that Heavy would remain an issue if Malacath was adjusted to be more reasonable. And even if so, Medium/Light are already the default choice in PvE, what is the issue with Heavy being the default in PvP? We are constantly fed this idea that Heavy needs to only be viable for one thing and restricted to such a small percentage of the population, why? I do appreciate you acknowledging Malacath as a concern, though I wish you would see that it is the primary issue at stake here.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

My point about heavy armor was made clear in the context of what it was responding to. It is that the penalties, instead of addressing the complaints of PvP players actually just gave tanks something to complain about as well. It's actually objectively better in PvP than it was before.

Exactly, the penalties didn't work the way people thought they would and now tanks in PvE have a stake in this fight because of PvP players. Surely you can see how this will now impose more complaints on PvP and lead ZOS to scrutinize issues there more closely? By involving tanks, you're arbitrarily declared war on players that just wanted to be left alone and will now be completely unsympathetic to any issues you may face in the future. PvP is now less balanced than it was before (somehow), and Procs have been completely removed from Cyrodiil for the next 6 months despite ZOS finding they didn't actually impact performance. None of these changes have addressed the issues they intended to and have actually just made things worse, why not simply listen to us for a change?

relentless_turnip wrote: »

There are no bonuses to damage by wearing heavy, but there no penalties either and certainly not a enough damage in medium or light to justify making the choice to wear them over heavy. My suggestion was made in the context of complaints from pve and PvP. Simply put IMO heavy should mitigate a lot more damage from all sources, but do a lot less damage in return.

Alternatively medium and light could do more damage. Realistically if this is going to be per piece then each piece of heavy would need to nullify damage bonuses gained through the other armor types in some way.

This is my favorite gif, let me share it with you.

Please stop arbitrarily nerfing things, this is how we got into this mess in the first place.

techprince

Rock Paper Scissors isnt implemented properly.

relentless_turnip

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Heavy armor meta was an issue before malacath, it is now a bigger issue because of it. I do recognise that yes.

Many things have changed in this game since Malacath was introduced, I doubt that Heavy would remain an issue if Malacath was adjusted to be more reasonable. And even if so, Medium/Light are already the default choice in PvE, what is the issue with Heavy being the default in PvP? We are constantly fed this idea that Heavy needs to only be viable for one thing and restricted to such a small percentage of the population, why? I do appreciate you acknowledging Malacath as a concern, though I wish you would see that it is the primary issue at stake here.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

My point about heavy armor was made clear in the context of what it was responding to. It is that the penalties, instead of addressing the complaints of PvP players actually just gave tanks something to complain about as well. It's actually objectively better in PvP than it was before.

Exactly, the penalties didn't work the way people thought they would and now tanks in PvE have a stake in this fight because of PvP players. Surely you can see how this will now impose more complaints on PvP and lead ZOS to scrutinize issues there more closely? By involving tanks, you're arbitrarily declared war on players that just wanted to be left alone and will now be completely unsympathetic to any issues you may face in the future. PvP is now less balanced than it was before (somehow), and Procs have been completely removed from Cyrodiil for the next 6 months despite ZOS finding they didn't actually impact performance. None of these changes have addressed the issues they intended to and have actually just made things worse, why not simply listen to us for a change?

relentless_turnip wrote: »

There are no bonuses to damage by wearing heavy, but there no penalties either and certainly not a enough damage in medium or light to justify making the choice to wear them over heavy. My suggestion was made in the context of complaints from pve and PvP. Simply put IMO heavy should mitigate a lot more damage from all sources, but do a lot less damage in return.

Alternatively medium and light could do more damage. Realistically if this is going to be per piece then each piece of heavy would need to nullify damage bonuses gained through the other armor types in some way.

This is my favorite gif, let me share it with you.

Please stop arbitrarily nerfing things, this is how we got into this mess in the first place.

Pve heavy is the meta for tanking, medium and light are the meta for damage. I am only suggesting that they bring PvP into a similar mentality and doing so benefits PVE. Rather than doing as you are suggesting and saying "no need to balance, everyone just wear heavy".

Why do you keep suggesting PvP players had anything to do with the armor changes? As I said it addresses none of their complaints. It has in fact been a detriment to pve and PvP(at least early experiences suggest so). I am trying to be reasonable in terms of compromises for general balance and you just keep making posts and comments blaming PvP for everything that gets adjusted, despite many people pointing out that it happens for reasons arising from all content.

The fact is if you are tanking you don't need damage and many tanks made the same suggestion before I did. You do however need to be able to mitigate it. Obviously from a balance perspective you cannot do both in a near equal measure.

I run all armor types in PvP and you'll have to appreciate that I don't really care the outcome. I am merely suggesting a compromise, based on reading the feedback of tanks and my own experience on the PTS and live. I am confused where you stand tbh, you want heavy to be able to mitigate more damage than they are suggesting and yet still do equal damage to live? Doesn't seem particularly balanced to me, but I would interested to hear how you would balance it.

Sangwyne

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Why do you keep suggesting PvP players had anything to do with the armor changes?

You can't be serious.

Daemonai wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Heavy Armor Is Too Strong
Heavy armour buffs taking in from meta to only viable option
Screw this heavy armor tank 5 minute 1v1 PvP meta
Heavy Combined With Malacath Seems Too Strong With The Upcoming Armor Changes
Surely ZOS can’t think people want another heavy armour, Malacath, proc set, health based heal meta?
Heavy Armor, 1H/Shield, High Health meta builds in PvP

There are hundreds of posts like that, the sheer amount of salt generated on a daily basis by a vocal minority of PvP players puts even the League community to shame.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The fact is if you are tanking you don't need damage and many tanks made the same suggestion before I did. You do however need to be able to mitigate it. Obviously from a balance perspective you cannot do both in a near equal measure.

You seem to be under the impression that damage and mitigation are the only strengths that exist in PvP. I already mentioned that nerfing Malacath would address the only source of damage Heavy has, and Heavy was just nerfed with regards to incoming Magic damage, so even its mitigation has been gutted. Stealth, damage, mobility, sustain, these are all also important aspects in PvP, and Heavy has none of them, while Medium has all of them and doesn't suffer any penalties to its defining features like Heavy has. And tanks should at least have sufficient damage to complete content; you don't seem to be making these changes with any consideration for the other half of the picture. All of these complaints have only made the issue worse in both PvP and PvE; that at least seems to be something we agree upon. So how about splitting up those aspects of the game and balancing them separately with regard to concerns that the players who actually participate in those modes have? I am tired of seeing PvE "balanced" to accommodate PvP players at everyone else's expense, and I'm sure you don't want to see PvP adjusted due to complaints stemming from PvE either, which most likely will happen now that we've been unwillingly dragged into this conflict.

relentless_turnip

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Why do you keep suggesting PvP players had anything to do with the armor changes?

You can't be serious.

Daemonai wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Heavy Armor Is Too Strong
Heavy armour buffs taking in from meta to only viable option
Screw this heavy armor tank 5 minute 1v1 PvP meta
Heavy Combined With Malacath Seems Too Strong With The Upcoming Armor Changes
Surely ZOS can’t think people want another heavy armour, Malacath, proc set, health based heal meta?
Heavy Armor, 1H/Shield, High Health meta builds in PvP

There are hundreds of posts like that, the sheer amount of salt generated on a daily basis by a vocal minority of PvP players puts even the League community to shame.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The fact is if you are tanking you don't need damage and many tanks made the same suggestion before I did. You do however need to be able to mitigate it. Obviously from a balance perspective you cannot do both in a near equal measure.

You seem to be under the impression that damage and mitigation are the only strengths that exist in PvP. I already mentioned that nerfing Malacath would address the only source of damage Heavy has, and Heavy was just nerfed with regards to incoming Magic damage, so even its mitigation has been gutted. Stealth, damage, mobility, sustain, these are all also important aspects in PvP, and Heavy has none of them, while Medium has all of them and doesn't suffer any penalties to its defining features like Heavy has. And tanks should at least have sufficient damage to complete content; you don't seem to be making these changes with any consideration for the other half of the picture. All of these complaints have only made the issue worse in both PvP and PvE; that at least seems to be something we agree upon. So how about splitting up those aspects of the game and balancing them separately with regard to concerns that the players who actually participate in those modes have? I am tired of seeing PvE "balanced" to accommodate PvP players at everyone else's expense, and I'm sure you don't want to see PvP adjusted due to complaints stemming from PvE either, which most likely will happen now that we've been unwillingly dragged into this conflict.

Those threads only express negativity about heavy armor and the changes don't address the issues within them. If you search proc sets or malacath you will also find numerous threads and neither have been addressed in a meaningful way. Apart from disabling them completely, which not many people are happy about😂

The changes were made to all armor types, making heavy arguably better in PvP. I don't see people complaining light armor was too tanky for instance or even that it lacked damage. Certainly the ability to roll dodge and break free were complaints raised by the PvP community. The rest no one asked for, so I'd say it was a stretch to point the finger in this instance to the PvP community.

Edit: essentially damage, mitigation and resource management are at core the only considerations in PvP. Damage can be dealt in numerous ways and essentially creating a combination that kills people is the aim. This can be achieved through burst, attrition, proc or a combination of all or some of them. Mitigation can also be achieved in a multitude of ways too i.e. roll dodge, block, heal, mist form, Streak, cloak etc.. this too is essentially working out how you will survive. So yeah I do believe that is basically all it comes down to.

Malacath would reduce heavy armor damage quite a bit, but then the only difference between base damage of 7 heavy and 7 medium is 14% WD. The crit passive grants you what 10% more crit chance?

BlueRaven

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Why do you keep suggesting PvP players had anything to do with the armor changes?

You can't be serious.

Daemonai wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

When did pvp ever ask for a heavy armour nerf? The last few months people have asked for a nerf to some procc sets. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Heavy Armor Is Too Strong
Heavy armour buffs taking in from meta to only viable option
Screw this heavy armor tank 5 minute 1v1 PvP meta
Heavy Combined With Malacath Seems Too Strong With The Upcoming Armor Changes
Surely ZOS can’t think people want another heavy armour, Malacath, proc set, health based heal meta?
Heavy Armor, 1H/Shield, High Health meta builds in PvP

There are hundreds of posts like that, the sheer amount of salt generated on a daily basis by a vocal minority of PvP players puts even the League community to shame.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The fact is if you are tanking you don't need damage and many tanks made the same suggestion before I did. You do however need to be able to mitigate it. Obviously from a balance perspective you cannot do both in a near equal measure.

You seem to be under the impression that damage and mitigation are the only strengths that exist in PvP. I already mentioned that nerfing Malacath would address the only source of damage Heavy has, and Heavy was just nerfed with regards to incoming Magic damage, so even its mitigation has been gutted. Stealth, damage, mobility, sustain, these are all also important aspects in PvP, and Heavy has none of them, while Medium has all of them and doesn't suffer any penalties to its defining features like Heavy has. And tanks should at least have sufficient damage to complete content; you don't seem to be making these changes with any consideration for the other half of the picture. All of these complaints have only made the issue worse in both PvP and PvE; that at least seems to be something we agree upon. So how about splitting up those aspects of the game and balancing them separately with regard to concerns that the players who actually participate in those modes have? I am tired of seeing PvE "balanced" to accommodate PvP players at everyone else's expense, and I'm sure you don't want to see PvP adjusted due to complaints stemming from PvE either, which most likely will happen now that we've been unwillingly dragged into this conflict.

Those threads only express negativity about heavy armor and the changes don't address the issues within them. If you search proc sets or malacath you will also find numerous threads and neither have been addressed in a meaningful way. Apart from disabling them completely, which not many people are happy about😂

The changes were made to all armor types, making heavy arguably better in PvP. I don't see people complaining light armor was too tanky for instance or even that it lacked damage. Certainly the ability to roll dodge and break free were complaints raised by the PvP community. The rest no one asked for, so I'd say it was a stretch to point the finger in this instance to the PvP community.

Edit: essentially damage, mitigation and resource management are at core the only considerations in PvP. Damage can be dealt in numerous ways and essentially creating a combination that kills people is the aim. This can be achieved through burst, attrition, proc or a combination of all or some of them. Mitigation can also be achieved in a multitude of ways too i.e. roll dodge, block, heal, mist form, Streak, cloak etc.. this too is essentially working out how you will survive. So yeah I do believe that is basically all it comes down to.

Malacath would reduce heavy armor damage quite a bit, but then the only difference between base damage of 7 heavy and 7 medium is 14% WD. The crit passive grants you what 10% more crit chance?

Show us the posts where pve people were complaining about heavy armor.

Also with the nerfs to heavy, two of my guilds (which in terms of progression are strictly of the Friday Night “Beer League” level) are even wondering if trials are even possible for them now.

In Hel ra there is a shield throw that has to be soaked by the group. If that shield is physical, can light armor survive it?

In multiple trials there are (what we believe to be) magic attacks that tanks have to soak, can tanks now survive it?

And as far as I can tell, no one has tested them under “real” (ie. not bis) conditions.

honey_badger82

As a PvE tank... should heavy gain a penalty to damage done per piece worn "for balance" I am done tanking, period.
There are players in the game who refuse to listen to being told how to handle dungeon boss mechanics and I have found myself many times having to both tank and do dps just to ensure we could finish the dungeon.
Let's use Unhallowed Grave for example, even on normal there are mechanics that absolutely cannot be ignored. I have been last alive in the kiln, had to break the bosses shield myself to stop the flames then rez other players just to stop a 50th wipe because no one wanted to listen to how it's done. This has been the case probably 7 out of 10 times I have done that particular dungeon. The boss with the poison and the grapple mechanics to outer platforms... at least 9 out of 10 times I have had to kill all the adds on the platforms myself as the tank, come back to the center and rez the others. On my templar tank who is built to tank and do damage this is a non issue. On my DK tank who is built as a proper tank should be... who already cant fight his way out of a wet paper bag... doing the same thing takes easily 5x as long. What you propose would mean the only option left for me in countless dungeon situations when last up against a mechanic I cant just go rez someone until the mechanic is dealt with is to let myself die and party wipe over and over until people rage quit the group and someone else who knows what's up or how to listen joins.