With the addition of companions now more than ever a veteran overland is needed

robertthebard

AlienMagi wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

AlienMagi wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Once again I'm really stumped with that kind of request. What do you mean by higher difficulty? More hp on enemies? More damage on them so you die? Maybe some dungeon boss mechanics?

Come on, ESO combat is hardly engaging, it's not Dark Souls or Prince of Persia Warrior Within. All the dodges, blocks and interruptions are really clunky and boring really. The longer fights might be fine in a dungeon where you have some mates to help you out and also it's not that long, hour tops in some dlc ones. In overland solo setting longer fights just get tedious after a while, so I don't really get what you want from them. People level up to the max, get all the cp, some meta gear and then they complain they have it easy. No ***, it's an rpg game, part of rpg games is levelling up so everything's easier. But yeah, if you want higher difficulty right now and that really floats your boat for enjoying overland questing try removing your cp, go in unmached gear/ naked or even better, roll a new character and don't speed level it, don't use boosts or food buffs. Take it slow. I finished Cadwell's Gold recently, going through both Gold and Silver took me over a year because I like taking things slow and I have limited time to play. Anyway I've seen a lot of people who just sprint through the quests, not listening to dialogues, not reading books, simply not playing attention. Not saying that you necessarily play that way, but yeah, imho enjoying overland is not really about the challenge, but rather about stories, lore and exploration.

Sorry for rambling, it's hard to properly convey thoughts in written form sometimes.
TL;DR ESO combat is not Dark Souls. Slow down and try to enjoy the content for what it is.

How are you stumped at this request. Do you really enjoy one shotting everything while doing the main story and quests? I dont know about you but for me that completely takes away the immersion and fun of actually doing the quest.

If you dont like using end game gear and dont wanna use vet overland thats your choice but some of us like to get good and keep the challenge so why are you against having the option?

Because "having the option" means dev time spent on something that isn't going to be appealing to a majority of the population? Maybe because it's going to be a never ending cycle of either "it's not hard enough yet" or "but it's stupid hard and needs to be nerfed"? I've seen the latter. Talked about what happened when I did too. I got banned from those forums for telling the players complaining about "stupid hard" to play a lower difficulty. Lesson not learned, however, if they ever implement here, and the "but it's stupid hard" posts get going, I'll be right there telling them to play a lower difficulty.

"But Rob, what made it 'stupid hard'" you may be asking? They did exactly what the players asked for. Applied healing nerfs, damage nerfs, and added mobs that debuffed players. All of a sudden, that wasn't what they wanted... Which translates to even more dev time spent tweaking, so they didn't have to have canoes to navigate the forums.

Sorry but you are wrong. The majority of players have already reached well over level 50 and for most of these people, overland difficulty is nonexistent, since they can spam 1 skill to kill a "super strong and immortal" boss with zero effort. It makes no sense and the content gets boring.


And why would anyone complain about it being "stupid hard", like, just disable vet mode and youre back to normal? Its up to the individual. Do you see people complaining about vet dungeons like this?

Of course improving the game takes developer time, thats just a non-point.

But from your point of view i can assume that you find veteran dungeons and trials were also a waste of developers time?

For the same reason players want solo dungeons? I'm not going to pretend to know the motivations, but I can assure you, it's going to happen. I can assure you, because I've already seen it happen.

[snip]

I have compared this idea to DDO, and there's a very specific reason I use that game; All of the questing zones, including wilderness areas, are private instances. All of the quests/raids have a difficulty option at the door. When you go to enter it, you select the difficulty you want to play. It's been that way since it launched. Here? Every zone is open to everyone that can get to it, and the only limitation on "that can get to it" is if you can actually walk to it, or have some means of fast travel to get there. You can run into other players in a Public Dungeon, or a Delve, or while wandering around picking flowers, or whatever. In DDO, once you leave the public areas, you're not seeing anyone but the people in your party, if any. This means that they have to completely rebuild the entire game for vet overland. It's not just that it's going to take time, it's going to take money, and lots of it, and whether it "improves" the game remains to be seen. It certainly didn't improve DDO when they added Reaper Mode. Although I do have to admit that Reaper Mode did expose some of those "elite" players.

A further point to your "closing hyperbole argument", The Trials and dungeons were built this way from the ground up, with this system in mind. This means, [snip] that I'm perfectly fine with it. I'm even glad to see it, because it puts the challenge in the game where it needs to be, at end game. There is, of course, another means to challenge one's self in this game, once you can go, and that's PvP, right? Maybe it's too laggy for you now? Maybe it's too challenging?

[Edited to remove Baiting]

robertthebard

Magdalina wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

So I was running around Stonefalls this morning, trying to find a quest that I missed on the map, and saw a player die to three scamps. CP level on the player? 0. Nope.

Well that's an odd argument. Just because it's possible to die in overland zones, doesn't mean they aren't too easy. I've seen people die to a single skeever in a dungeon (Wayrest 2, can't remember if vet or normal) before - they ran off away from the group and heroically fought that skeever with light attacks away from heals and taunts as everyone else proceeded to kill the boss 30m away from them. Does this mean there should be no harder dungeons because you can die to a skeever in vanilla ones?

The point of combat is to get better at it. Of course you might die figuring it out at first, but then you learn things, unlock skills, find out about food and potions, figure your own strats etc. Current ESO open world actually does many new players a great disservie - it convinces them that the level of skill where they can light attack a mob to death without dying is all you ever need in the game, without even hinting at wider possibilities. Then they come into dungeons and they get carried and get even more convinced they're ready for everything. Then they come into dlc, or better yet, vet dlc and there comes the rude awakening and the point that turns a lot of them away from that content forever - despite being able to do open world with their eyes closed, they cannot do harder content as they're wearing absolutely mismatched gear, have 30k health on dps, all the wrong skills, and, worst of all, don't have any idea what following mechanics means. But in reality, it's not that they cannot do this content - it's that they need a completely different approach to this content than anything they've seen in this game before, and that leaves them totally baffled.

Yeah, that's what the starter dungeons are supposed to be for, learning that there are other mechanics, and learning how to deal with them.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Starlight_Whisper

I don't think it would help... remember hardmode in beginning was just extra health on bosses

wolfbone

you just sound like you want everything to be made harder just cos you find it too easy.

what you forget is that if things are made difficult, it'll put off a lot of people.
it's why alot of dlc dungeons end up dead. they're too difficult even on normal, and puts off a lot of the player base, because of the elitists who populate them who'll kick you out just cos they dont like your choices.

Iccotak

Sevn wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Regardless, proponents of this proposal need to first and foremost come up with a plan for Zos to monetize this content. It's dead in the water otherwise. If you don't have a significant amount of players that are willing to PAY for this, all arguments for it are moot.

They aren't going to spend time and resources maintaining new servers on content that will most certainly be drastically less populated for absolutely zero profits. Not happening.

A handful of players saying, "well I'd buy a companion if I had more challenging overland content" isn't enough when in reality they probably still wouldn't bother buying them and just use the empty zones to corner the markets on various saleable items.

Well that is not necessarily true

ZOS does implement quality of life features for the good of the game as is evident with the new tutorial which lets players choose their beginning destination which has been a major request for some time now. Or the Dungeon Finder and CP rework.

While I do think Overland could be harder and be a better learning curve and to encourage trying content like dungeons - I think that could be done through other means and not just a "veteran instance" and I do not think it has to be monetized to accomplish this.

We know that ZOS have talked about it and acknowledged that people have requested harder difficulties specifically for the Boss as well as overland.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwrb9x/

ZOS_MattF
Hello! We have no plans on implementing spears, but we have talked off and on about cool ways to do the one hand magic/one hand weapon thing. That's not on our roadmap anywhere, but we have been brainstorming.

There are so many cool things we could do! Seriously, we love these ideas too, but it all comes down to a matter of time and priorities.

EDIT: to respond to your edit. Yes, we've talked about this, in fact we tried to get that into the game as part of One Tamriel, but we just couldn't get it done. So we have ideas on how to have difficulty settings for overland content, but it's not currently planned. It's a great idea.

Adding a separate Vet mode and having to maintain it for free for a small amount of players isn't something I'd classify as "for the good of the game", whereas the 3 examples you present obviously benefit the majority if not the entirety of the population. Not even close to being on the same level.

If it's not going to improve the quality of life for a majority or isn't something players are willing to pay for it makes zero sense to spend time and resources on it when that can go elsewhere. That's just the bottom line for any business.

Plus it looks like they've already come up with a MONETIZED solution to encourage players to try harder content (companions) without infringing other playstyles on all players.

This idea that overland needs to be harder to train everyone for harder content is assuming everyone or even half is interested in running such content. They could just implement 2 or 3 training dungeons for that even if so and sell them for profit. Much cheaper, faster, easier.

Probably one free one while the rest would be sold in the crown store for those who truly are interested in improving their combat performance. Just like they sell training dummies in the store for those interested in improving their combat prowess *hint hint*.

I want to make sure my position is clear, I'm all for it, I have big plans to abuse it to my own benefits if implemented, but unless you guys can accept something like this will have to have a price tag it's just pissing in the wind again and again and again and again and again and again....

Overland should be leading players to content that teaches them how to play- you don’t need “training dungeons” because that’s what the early level dungeons are for.

Problem is that
1) the group finder does not group players of similar levels - which often leads to rushing and burning.
2) The developers do not integrate dungeons or trials into the general questing experience. This leads to a separation

Sure it sounds nice for people who don’t want to do that content but it also can be discouraging to those just stepping their foot into the pool - hence companions.

Oh I think I understood you, this is the part of your narrative that I have an issue with insisting overland should be leading every player to endgame combat other than what it is currently used for, background atmosphere.

Who has the right to tell all players they should be focusing on endgame? Whose endgame? Pvp? Trials? Flower picking? Though I'm pretty good at all aspects of the game my endgame has little to do with combat.

I have so many characters that are simply not built for combat but rather a theme and I rather enjoy not having to worry about tedious combat while sightseeing in Tameriel.

No, while I'm with you on buffing story bosses and other instanced content, the enemies in overland are currently just background scenery as intended and should remain so and players that want to learn how to "play" can do so with companions in the lower level dungeons or the training dungeons you dismissed.

Just because overland leads you or encourages you to try end game doesn’t mean you have to.

Iccotak

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

lemonizzle wrote: »

Overland quests currently: "Brace yourself Champion, 'Gilgamesh, Consumer of Reality" is awaiting behind this door! He destroyed continents in one snap."
You enter, the boss has 400k hp tops, and dies in 3 second. You can't even finish one rotation. This is also the giga fight that was hyped for a whole chapter.

This just in: For some players, Gilgamesh sent them to a shrine. I call all the way back to my first post in this thread, where a player died to three scamps...

Hey, it's great that we're roflstomping all this stuff now. I mean, it's not like we can just equip blank gear, assign our CP, and faceroll everything based solely on that, right?

I think it is fair that people ask for a Hard Setting for the "Gilgamesh" of the Chapter, DLC, and Year.

While Overland is a starting point and it makes sense that it prioritizes accessibility - I think when it concerns the Main Story ZOS should prioritize engagement as that is being marketed to all players and is a big selling point.

Sure let new players do the story and beat an easy version of the Boss - but give end game players an engaging boss fight that pays off all the build up of the story. Especially the Boss fight that caps the end of the year.

Here's the thing I see though, how does that optional mode that they may not use train them for harder content. This is one of the "selling points" for this proposal, after all. It's one of those "looks good on paper" arguments that doesn't hold up when we consider that one caveat, if they're not using it, it's not training them for anything.

While I would hope that, if it were something that already existed, there would be some that did try it, I'm familiar with people that aren't "good" at the game because they don't have the motor skills to be "good" at it. I know players that are, at the end of the day, fairly decent at their classes, but that get flustered in a group setting, or overwhelmed by things that happen, and fall apart. They won't be in a queue for group content, because they can't handle a group setting, even where some of them could actually do well in that setting. These aren't hypotheticals, these are people that I have gamed with, some of them for years.

I never said that the harder difficulty setting for Main Story Bosses was for training new players.
Nor did I endorse “Veteran Overland”.

I said it the mode was for those who may or may not do endgame content who want a Main Story Boss who is actually challenging and lives up to all the hype and build-up.

You can still have a normal solo instance for players who just do casually and want to complete the zone.
You would not be forced to play the harder setting or play with a group. Never said that.

Fata1moose

wolfbone wrote: »

you just sound like you want everything to be made harder just cos you find it too easy.

what you forget is that if things are made difficult, it'll put off a lot of people.
it's why alot of dlc dungeons end up dead. they're too difficult even on normal, and puts off a lot of the player base, because of the elitists who populate them who'll kick you out just cos they dont like your choices.

That's clearly not what I said. Veteran toggle would mean there's still vanilla overland difficulty. Ideally in the same instance if possible.

Iccotak

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

lemonizzle wrote: »

Overland quests currently: "Brace yourself Champion, 'Gilgamesh, Consumer of Reality" is awaiting behind this door! He destroyed continents in one snap."
You enter, the boss has 400k hp tops, and dies in 3 second. You can't even finish one rotation. This is also the giga fight that was hyped for a whole chapter.

But the main character also defeated a daedric prince in his own domain, another three daedric princes in summerset, lets see if Gilgamesh is more powerful than that. I'd say we should be able to destroy anything in one snap, thats just how powerful we are lore wise.

1) that is not the case for all players, like those who start in the chapter rather than the base game
2) the DLC should present the "New" Challenge not just make all new bad guys mind numbingly easy
3) The Dungeons have harder bosses than the Main Story - it does not make sense to make someone who is canonically more powerful than the henchmen to be weaker in the gameplay, even with a Power Boost.

The Main Boss should be treated the same as dungeons & trials AND they should have an optional instance so then it satisfies more than just one demographic.

Iccotak

robertthebard wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

So I was running around Stonefalls this morning, trying to find a quest that I missed on the map, and saw a player die to three scamps. CP level on the player? 0. Nope.

Well that's an odd argument. Just because it's possible to die in overland zones, doesn't mean they aren't too easy. I've seen people die to a single skeever in a dungeon (Wayrest 2, can't remember if vet or normal) before - they ran off away from the group and heroically fought that skeever with light attacks away from heals and taunts as everyone else proceeded to kill the boss 30m away from them. Does this mean there should be no harder dungeons because you can die to a skeever in vanilla ones?

The point of combat is to get better at it. Of course you might die figuring it out at first, but then you learn things, unlock skills, find out about food and potions, figure your own strats etc. Current ESO open world actually does many new players a great disservie - it convinces them that the level of skill where they can light attack a mob to death without dying is all you ever need in the game, without even hinting at wider possibilities. Then they come into dungeons and they get carried and get even more convinced they're ready for everything. Then they come into dlc, or better yet, vet dlc and there comes the rude awakening and the point that turns a lot of them away from that content forever - despite being able to do open world with their eyes closed, they cannot do harder content as they're wearing absolutely mismatched gear, have 30k health on dps, all the wrong skills, and, worst of all, don't have any idea what following mechanics means. But in reality, it's not that they cannot do this content - it's that they need a completely different approach to this content than anything they've seen in this game before, and that leaves them totally baffled.

Yeah, that's what the starter dungeons are supposed to be for, learning that there are other mechanics, and learning how to deal with them.

Do spare me the hyperbole about how people play though. It does a disservice to the whole discussion.

tbf carrying early players in early dungeons is a problem that I think ZOS should look into with grouping players of similar levels - for random grouping that is.

xericdx

This has been asked over and over in past years and the discussion always stirs towards old VS new players. Why can't we have a system that allows for options?

I made a proposal here. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/560107/overland-boring-content-proposal-so-everyone-is-happy/p1?new=1

Faulgor

One thing I'd like to point out is that we aren't asking for something novel or unheard of.
The overland content used to be harder than it currently is, and only after years of nerfing content and power creep have we ended up where we are. No, I'm not talking about Craglorn, bog standard base game zones.
People who were there at release still talk tales about how they defeated Doshia, because the challenge made these fights more memorable. Whereas I can't even recall last chapter's boss fights.

robertthebard wrote: »

AlienMagi wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Once again I'm really stumped with that kind of request. What do you mean by higher difficulty? More hp on enemies? More damage on them so you die? Maybe some dungeon boss mechanics?

Come on, ESO combat is hardly engaging, it's not Dark Souls or Prince of Persia Warrior Within. All the dodges, blocks and interruptions are really clunky and boring really. The longer fights might be fine in a dungeon where you have some mates to help you out and also it's not that long, hour tops in some dlc ones. In overland solo setting longer fights just get tedious after a while, so I don't really get what you want from them. People level up to the max, get all the cp, some meta gear and then they complain they have it easy. No ***, it's an rpg game, part of rpg games is levelling up so everything's easier. But yeah, if you want higher difficulty right now and that really floats your boat for enjoying overland questing try removing your cp, go in unmached gear/ naked or even better, roll a new character and don't speed level it, don't use boosts or food buffs. Take it slow. I finished Cadwell's Gold recently, going through both Gold and Silver took me over a year because I like taking things slow and I have limited time to play. Anyway I've seen a lot of people who just sprint through the quests, not listening to dialogues, not reading books, simply not playing attention. Not saying that you necessarily play that way, but yeah, imho enjoying overland is not really about the challenge, but rather about stories, lore and exploration.

Sorry for rambling, it's hard to properly convey thoughts in written form sometimes.
TL;DR ESO combat is not Dark Souls. Slow down and try to enjoy the content for what it is.

How are you stumped at this request. Do you really enjoy one shotting everything while doing the main story and quests? I dont know about you but for me that completely takes away the immersion and fun of actually doing the quest.

If you dont like using end game gear and dont wanna use vet overland thats your choice but some of us like to get good and keep the challenge so why are you against having the option?

Because "having the option" means dev time spent on something that isn't going to be appealing to a majority of the population? Maybe because it's going to be a never ending cycle of either "it's not hard enough yet" or "but it's stupid hard and needs to be nerfed"? I've seen the latter. Talked about what happened when I did too. [snip] Lesson not learned, however, if they ever implement here, and the "but it's stupid hard" posts get going, I'll be right there telling them to play a lower difficulty.

"But Rob, what made it 'stupid hard'" you may be asking? They did exactly what the players asked for. Applied healing nerfs, damage nerfs, and added mobs that debuffed players. All of a sudden, that wasn't what they wanted... Which translates to even more dev time spent tweaking, so they didn't have to have canoes to navigate the forums.

The technology to make this happen is already in the game. Everyone below CP160 is scaled anyway. Everyone in PvP has the Battle Spirit debuff applied to them. This not an enigma that the devs need to spent years to solve, it is solved.
Not to mention that they spend a lot of dev time every year to create veteran hardmode dungeons and trials, which only a negligible amount of people actually play. And would you know it, that also requires tweaking settings so it isn't too easy or too hard, which they do continuously. Compared to that, applying already existing mechanics to already existing content is trivial.

Being so trivial might actually be to its detriment, because it doesn't appear to be substantial enough for a chapter feature (especially when it's limited to a specific game mode, in this case overland), and they rarely do new game systems outside of that.

AlienMagi

robertthebard wrote: »

AlienMagi wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

AlienMagi wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Once again I'm really stumped with that kind of request. What do you mean by higher difficulty? More hp on enemies? More damage on them so you die? Maybe some dungeon boss mechanics?

Come on, ESO combat is hardly engaging, it's not Dark Souls or Prince of Persia Warrior Within. All the dodges, blocks and interruptions are really clunky and boring really. The longer fights might be fine in a dungeon where you have some mates to help you out and also it's not that long, hour tops in some dlc ones. In overland solo setting longer fights just get tedious after a while, so I don't really get what you want from them. People level up to the max, get all the cp, some meta gear and then they complain they have it easy. No ***, it's an rpg game, part of rpg games is levelling up so everything's easier. But yeah, if you want higher difficulty right now and that really floats your boat for enjoying overland questing try removing your cp, go in unmached gear/ naked or even better, roll a new character and don't speed level it, don't use boosts or food buffs. Take it slow. I finished Cadwell's Gold recently, going through both Gold and Silver took me over a year because I like taking things slow and I have limited time to play. Anyway I've seen a lot of people who just sprint through the quests, not listening to dialogues, not reading books, simply not playing attention. Not saying that you necessarily play that way, but yeah, imho enjoying overland is not really about the challenge, but rather about stories, lore and exploration.

Sorry for rambling, it's hard to properly convey thoughts in written form sometimes.
TL;DR ESO combat is not Dark Souls. Slow down and try to enjoy the content for what it is.

How are you stumped at this request. Do you really enjoy one shotting everything while doing the main story and quests? I dont know about you but for me that completely takes away the immersion and fun of actually doing the quest.

If you dont like using end game gear and dont wanna use vet overland thats your choice but some of us like to get good and keep the challenge so why are you against having the option?

Because "having the option" means dev time spent on something that isn't going to be appealing to a majority of the population? Maybe because it's going to be a never ending cycle of either "it's not hard enough yet" or "but it's stupid hard and needs to be nerfed"? I've seen the latter. Talked about what happened when I did too. [snip] Lesson not learned, however, if they ever implement here, and the "but it's stupid hard" posts get going, I'll be right there telling them to play a lower difficulty.

"But Rob, what made it 'stupid hard'" you may be asking? They did exactly what the players asked for. Applied healing nerfs, damage nerfs, and added mobs that debuffed players. All of a sudden, that wasn't what they wanted... Which translates to even more dev time spent tweaking, so they didn't have to have canoes to navigate the forums.

Sorry but you are wrong. The majority of players have already reached well over level 50 and for most of these people, overland difficulty is nonexistent, since they can spam 1 skill to kill a "super strong and immortal" boss with zero effort. It makes no sense and the content gets boring.


And why would anyone complain about it being "stupid hard", like, just disable vet mode and youre back to normal? Its up to the individual. Do you see people complaining about vet dungeons like this?

Of course improving the game takes developer time, thats just a non-point.

But from your point of view i can assume that you find veteran dungeons and trials were also a waste of developers time?

[snip]

The Trials and dungeons were built this way from the ground up, with this system in mind. This means, [snip] that I'm perfectly fine with it. I'm even glad to see it, because it puts the challenge in the game where it needs to be, at end game.

[snip]

And yes story and quests are also done in ESO's endgame whether you like it or not.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Iccotak

AlienMagi wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

AlienMagi wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

AlienMagi wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Once again I'm really stumped with that kind of request. What do you mean by higher difficulty? More hp on enemies? More damage on them so you die? Maybe some dungeon boss mechanics?

Come on, ESO combat is hardly engaging, it's not Dark Souls or Prince of Persia Warrior Within. All the dodges, blocks and interruptions are really clunky and boring really. The longer fights might be fine in a dungeon where you have some mates to help you out and also it's not that long, hour tops in some dlc ones. In overland solo setting longer fights just get tedious after a while, so I don't really get what you want from them. People level up to the max, get all the cp, some meta gear and then they complain they have it easy. No ***, it's an rpg game, part of rpg games is levelling up so everything's easier. But yeah, if you want higher difficulty right now and that really floats your boat for enjoying overland questing try removing your cp, go in unmached gear/ naked or even better, roll a new character and don't speed level it, don't use boosts or food buffs. Take it slow. I finished Cadwell's Gold recently, going through both Gold and Silver took me over a year because I like taking things slow and I have limited time to play. Anyway I've seen a lot of people who just sprint through the quests, not listening to dialogues, not reading books, simply not playing attention. Not saying that you necessarily play that way, but yeah, imho enjoying overland is not really about the challenge, but rather about stories, lore and exploration.

Sorry for rambling, it's hard to properly convey thoughts in written form sometimes.
TL;DR ESO combat is not Dark Souls. Slow down and try to enjoy the content for what it is.

How are you stumped at this request. Do you really enjoy one shotting everything while doing the main story and quests? I dont know about you but for me that completely takes away the immersion and fun of actually doing the quest.

If you dont like using end game gear and dont wanna use vet overland thats your choice but some of us like to get good and keep the challenge so why are you against having the option?

Because "having the option" means dev time spent on something that isn't going to be appealing to a majority of the population? Maybe because it's going to be a never ending cycle of either "it's not hard enough yet" or "but it's stupid hard and needs to be nerfed"? I've seen the latter. Talked about what happened when I did too. [snip] Lesson not learned, however, if they ever implement here, and the "but it's stupid hard" posts get going, I'll be right there telling them to play a lower difficulty.

"But Rob, what made it 'stupid hard'" you may be asking? They did exactly what the players asked for. Applied healing nerfs, damage nerfs, and added mobs that debuffed players. All of a sudden, that wasn't what they wanted... Which translates to even more dev time spent tweaking, so they didn't have to have canoes to navigate the forums.

Sorry but you are wrong. The majority of players have already reached well over level 50 and for most of these people, overland difficulty is nonexistent, since they can spam 1 skill to kill a "super strong and immortal" boss with zero effort. It makes no sense and the content gets boring.


And why would anyone complain about it being "stupid hard", like, just disable vet mode and youre back to normal? Its up to the individual. Do you see people complaining about vet dungeons like this?

Of course improving the game takes developer time, thats just a non-point.

But from your point of view i can assume that you find veteran dungeons and trials were also a waste of developers time?

[snip]

The Trials and dungeons were built this way from the ground up, with this system in mind. This means, [snip] that I'm perfectly fine with it. I'm even glad to see it, because it puts the challenge in the game where it needs to be, at end game.

[snip]

And yes story and quests are also done in ESO's endgame whether you like it or not.

Yeah I don’t get this idea that story content and end game should be completely separate.

I don’t think the story (especially the main story) should only appeal to one gameplay demographic - doesn’t make any sense.
If we really wanted to appeal to the lowest common denominator then all zones would be made as hard as Bleakrock and I don't think anyone really wants that.

Also NO One is asking for ESO to be Dark Souls - especially when discussing the Main Story Bosses.
For me, I’m saying that ZOS should put the same effort and treatment they do for dungeons and apply it to the Main Story Boss encounters.
It’s basically saying; “Hey I love this kind of content and I’d love for the big bads to get the treatment.”

When the story builds up an antagonist over the course of the dlc, or even the year, then actually make that experience worthwhile to more than one type of player.

Otherwise not only do you create a gameplay experience that is inconsistent with the story but also an unmemorable experience which is not something you want people to say about your game.

---

robertthebard

Fata1moose wrote: »

wolfbone wrote: »

you just sound like you want everything to be made harder just cos you find it too easy.

what you forget is that if things are made difficult, it'll put off a lot of people.
it's why alot of dlc dungeons end up dead. they're too difficult even on normal, and puts off a lot of the player base, because of the elitists who populate them who'll kick you out just cos they dont like your choices.

That's clearly not what I said. Veteran toggle would mean there's still vanilla overland difficulty. Ideally in the same instance if possible.

It's going to be really hard to do that. Scenario: Vet player running with a toggle on in a mixed environment tags a bunch of mobs to pull them together for some AoE action. Regular player gets caught up in the swarm, and dies. Hey, it was an accident. What about when it isn't an accident? What about when that regular player is farming a spot that the vet player wants to farm, and so they train them with the vet level mobs?

"But Rob, surely that won't happen"? I can see someone thinking that. It's a pretty common tactic, where OW PvP isn't a thing. I have seen that happen, even though it wasn't a regular vs vet mode situation, just a situation where they could overwhelm the player they want removed from a spot.

ZOS_ConnorG

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poodlemasterb16_ESO

I don't care. I can avoid, at high speed, everything I don't want to fight with. If I'm really lazy I can just run through the content, chain it up and pop the front of the chain, and it goes home. If you want to make Overland hard change the positioning so I can't just drive through it. How tough the content is, has less to do with how hard it is.

I solo this game and its a bit easy there is no doubt, but I only fight with what I want to. In a Delve I will take the shard and kill the boss. Depending on the layout, I may not kill anyone else. I kill what I need to, and little else.

Its how I roll and a Companion will not help me at all.

Iccotak

simox wrote: »

theres no way they are gonna adjust behaviour/mechanics of the already thousands placed npcs troughout all the zones

realistically what we might see is a simple difficulty slider similar to the single player TES games, just buffing hp/dmg of mobs

doesnt sound very exciting no?


perhaps what might be possible is a veteran version for delves and public dungeons, would be abit easier to implement

Except that is exactly what they did in One Tamriel, as laid out by this post

For those who weren't here at launch, I should perhaps explain exactly how overland was made so laughably easy. It's not just a matter of the "normal" player-dealt DPS increasing five-fold or more since launch, and it's not just the fact that they made the mobs have less HP and hit less hard. The nerf goes much deeper than that, and no simple debuffs or voluntary crippling of your build can fix it properly.

The problem is that they both dumbed down and slowed down the AI for all PvE enemies. Regular trash mobs used to employ jumps and dodges, they blocked your blows, they snared you, and they used combinations of abilities which you needed to counter properly to defeat them reliably. Combat with even a single trash mob could be engaging. Two was busy, three was a challenge. Telegraphs were shorter and easier to miss.

This game used to be quite hard for a solo player. I am not saying it was better, because people rage quit over, say, not being able to progress in the main quest or kill the wretched Doshia in the Fighters' Guild quest. The changes they made to the game have very obviously made it survive.

In my personal opinion, I'm sad to see this challenge gone, but there is nothing that could bring back that for individual players without changing the experience for everyone else, except splitting the world into different instances depending on some "difficulty" toggle.

A separate instance would not be like Pre-One Tamriel because in those days the player base were split 9 different ways by zones, factions, and by levels.

putting Players in just two separate instances would not be the same case as how things were before.

exeeter702

robertthebard wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

So I was running around Stonefalls this morning, trying to find a quest that I missed on the map, and saw a player die to three scamps. CP level on the player? 0. Nope.

Then they could keep the overland toggled on Normal that changes nothing.

It changes everything. I've seen this discussion before. Here, and in DDO. When they finally got it in DDO, and started complaining that it was too hard, I picked up a nice little year ban from the forums for suggesting exactly what you suggest here, "Play a lower difficulty".

[snip]

If difficulty was determined entirely on people complaining then we wouldn't have vet trials, dungeons or HMs either. But the great thing is we can have both a normal overland and a veteran overland just like group content has scalable difficulty. It just has to be done in such a way that a player is made aware through the UI if they switch to veteran.

Nope, it was exactly that. The reason for the report was probably closer to "but he hurt my feelings by telling me what I've been telling players that want Elite quests toned down so they can solo it. Nobody's supposed to use our argument against us", and a snowflake mod that agreed with them.

The truly great thing is we have content for everyone right now, to one extent or another, that doesn't require any additional time spent redoing stuff for a minority of the playerbase that may actually take advantage of it. All of this was discussed the last time this came up though. It costs money to do this, and there's no way to monetize it that won't be considered "P2W", or that may actually be P2W... So it's money out of pocket, for no return.

Funny how it is perfectly fine for casual solo players to ask for a solo option for dungeons trials ic cyrodil etc yet when people ask for an option to make overland more difficult aka a vet toggle it quickly gets shut down as not needed or eltist being greedy or whatever the reason..... just saying tho

Quote me asking for any of this? I don't care what other players ask for, if I think it's a good idea, I'll say so, if not, I'll say so. This isn't a good idea. If it was made like DDO, it would be a better idea, where all the quest zones are already instanced, but it's not. So how do they recoup the loss of money doing the development on these maps? How many threads are we going to get with something along the lines of "but this is stupid hard" if it were ever to be implemented? I mean, seriously, the last thread about this I could have cut game names out, and copied a thread from the DDO forums, and nobody would know the difference, other than user names.

But it doesn't just stop there, does it? Because if it's ever hinted that they're considering it, what's the next topic of discussion going to be? "Well, we'll need better rewards, or it's just not worth it". This even came up in the last thread about this here. What's that sound like to you? So it's not "We need more challenge", or, more accurately, it's not all it is, it's also, "but we need better stuff to go with it, because just getting that "more challenge" isn't enough for us, we need to be compensated for that too".

Better to leave it as is.

You are grossly over estimating the development cost of implementing a higher level scaled zone. The mega server already handles multiple instances of zones when need be. Creating the ability to produce instances that are scaled to the highest tower level a player character can be is a non factor outside of zos not wanting to segregate players. The irony there is that they are perfectly fine creating handholding systems like the companion feature that further promotes playing solo.

Improve the AI to how it used to be back in year 1. Provide overland content for players that have commited the crime of making their characters as strong as they could be.


DnD online is an absolute terrible example for more reasons than I cam even begin to elaborate on here.

Iccotak

exeeter702 wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

So I was running around Stonefalls this morning, trying to find a quest that I missed on the map, and saw a player die to three scamps. CP level on the player? 0. Nope.

Then they could keep the overland toggled on Normal that changes nothing.

It changes everything. I've seen this discussion before. Here, and in DDO. When they finally got it in DDO, and started complaining that it was too hard, I picked up a nice little year ban from the forums for suggesting exactly what you suggest here, "Play a lower difficulty".

[snip]

If difficulty was determined entirely on people complaining then we wouldn't have vet trials, dungeons or HMs either. But the great thing is we can have both a normal overland and a veteran overland just like group content has scalable difficulty. It just has to be done in such a way that a player is made aware through the UI if they switch to veteran.

Nope, it was exactly that. The reason for the report was probably closer to "but he hurt my feelings by telling me what I've been telling players that want Elite quests toned down so they can solo it. Nobody's supposed to use our argument against us", and a snowflake mod that agreed with them.

The truly great thing is we have content for everyone right now, to one extent or another, that doesn't require any additional time spent redoing stuff for a minority of the playerbase that may actually take advantage of it. All of this was discussed the last time this came up though. It costs money to do this, and there's no way to monetize it that won't be considered "P2W", or that may actually be P2W... So it's money out of pocket, for no return.

Funny how it is perfectly fine for casual solo players to ask for a solo option for dungeons trials ic cyrodil etc yet when people ask for an option to make overland more difficult aka a vet toggle it quickly gets shut down as not needed or eltist being greedy or whatever the reason..... just saying tho

Quote me asking for any of this? I don't care what other players ask for, if I think it's a good idea, I'll say so, if not, I'll say so. This isn't a good idea. If it was made like DDO, it would be a better idea, where all the quest zones are already instanced, but it's not. So how do they recoup the loss of money doing the development on these maps? How many threads are we going to get with something along the lines of "but this is stupid hard" if it were ever to be implemented? I mean, seriously, the last thread about this I could have cut game names out, and copied a thread from the DDO forums, and nobody would know the difference, other than user names.

But it doesn't just stop there, does it? Because if it's ever hinted that they're considering it, what's the next topic of discussion going to be? "Well, we'll need better rewards, or it's just not worth it". This even came up in the last thread about this here. What's that sound like to you? So it's not "We need more challenge", or, more accurately, it's not all it is, it's also, "but we need better stuff to go with it, because just getting that "more challenge" isn't enough for us, we need to be compensated for that too".

Better to leave it as is.

You are grossly over estimating the development cost of implementing a higher level scaled zone. The mega server already handles multiple instances of zones when need be. Creating the ability to produce instances that are scaled to the highest tower level a player character can be is a non factor outside of zos not wanting to segregate players. The irony there is that they are perfectly fine creating handholding systems like the companion feature that further promotes playing solo.

Improve the AI to how it used to be back in year 1. Provide overland content for players that have commited the crime of making their characters as strong as they could be.


DnD online is an absolute terrible example for more reasons than I cam even begin to elaborate on here.

Especially for Main Story Bosses

exeeter702

I also want to add to the point regarding those saying overland casual content is for story and end game challenge is appropriately focused elsewhere.

Video game narratives are not books, they are not films, they are not tv shows. I cannot stress it enough how uniquely positioned video games as a storytelling medium are. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING that will take the wind out of a video game story's sails, more than a completely limp climax with zero pushback on the player in terms of achieving a win condition. You can set up a great final encounter to a well written quest line and it will completely fail if there is no danger of failure.

People really need to stop separating story and "endgame" here. They are not mutually exclusive. I have personally been unable to really enjoy all 4 of the chapters main queatline and zone experience because of how comically easy they are and how they lack any sense of agency.

Iccotak

exeeter702 wrote: »

I also want to add to the point regarding those saying overland casual content is for story and end game challenge is appropriately focused elsewhere.

Video game narratives are not books, they are not films, they are not tv shows. I cannot stress it enough how uniquely positioned video games as a storytelling medium are. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING that will take the wind out of a video game story's sails, more than a completely limp climax with zero pushback on the player in terms of achieving a win condition. You can set up a great final encounter to a well written quest line and it will completely fail if there is no danger of failure.

People really need to stop separating story and "endgame" here. They are not mutually exclusive. I have personally been unable to really enjoy all 4 of the chapters main queatline and zone experience because of how comically easy they are and how they lack any sense of agency.

^^THIS THIS^^

I cannot stress enough how my engagement in narratives have been killed by this separation of Story and Endgame. It also doesn’t make sense when pushing for the inclusion of Dungeons in the year long story or for the lackeys to be more of a gameplay threat in comparison to the Main Story Boss they built up.

Something I give WoW points for is that they appropriately intertwine narrative and end game in their own way.

ZOS should to. Especially with the inclusion Set Collection Feature and new Companion System.
This gets both solo casual and endgame players excited for the new expansion.

Iccotak

Faulgor wrote: »

One thing I'd like to point out is that we aren't asking for something novel or unheard of.
The overland content used to be harder than it currently is, and only after years of nerfing content and power creep have we ended up where we are. No, I'm not talking about Craglorn, bog standard base game zones.
People who were there at release still talk tales about how they defeated Doshia, because the challenge made these fights more memorable. Whereas I can't even recall last chapter's boss fights.

robertthebard wrote: »

AlienMagi wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Once again I'm really stumped with that kind of request. What do you mean by higher difficulty? More hp on enemies? More damage on them so you die? Maybe some dungeon boss mechanics?

Come on, ESO combat is hardly engaging, it's not Dark Souls or Prince of Persia Warrior Within. All the dodges, blocks and interruptions are really clunky and boring really. The longer fights might be fine in a dungeon where you have some mates to help you out and also it's not that long, hour tops in some dlc ones. In overland solo setting longer fights just get tedious after a while, so I don't really get what you want from them. People level up to the max, get all the cp, some meta gear and then they complain they have it easy. No ***, it's an rpg game, part of rpg games is levelling up so everything's easier. But yeah, if you want higher difficulty right now and that really floats your boat for enjoying overland questing try removing your cp, go in unmached gear/ naked or even better, roll a new character and don't speed level it, don't use boosts or food buffs. Take it slow. I finished Cadwell's Gold recently, going through both Gold and Silver took me over a year because I like taking things slow and I have limited time to play. Anyway I've seen a lot of people who just sprint through the quests, not listening to dialogues, not reading books, simply not playing attention. Not saying that you necessarily play that way, but yeah, imho enjoying overland is not really about the challenge, but rather about stories, lore and exploration.

Sorry for rambling, it's hard to properly convey thoughts in written form sometimes.
TL;DR ESO combat is not Dark Souls. Slow down and try to enjoy the content for what it is.

How are you stumped at this request. Do you really enjoy one shotting everything while doing the main story and quests? I dont know about you but for me that completely takes away the immersion and fun of actually doing the quest.

If you dont like using end game gear and dont wanna use vet overland thats your choice but some of us like to get good and keep the challenge so why are you against having the option?

Because "having the option" means dev time spent on something that isn't going to be appealing to a majority of the population? Maybe because it's going to be a never ending cycle of either "it's not hard enough yet" or "but it's stupid hard and needs to be nerfed"? I've seen the latter. Talked about what happened when I did too. [snip] Lesson not learned, however, if they ever implement here, and the "but it's stupid hard" posts get going, I'll be right there telling them to play a lower difficulty.

"But Rob, what made it 'stupid hard'" you may be asking? They did exactly what the players asked for. Applied healing nerfs, damage nerfs, and added mobs that debuffed players. All of a sudden, that wasn't what they wanted... Which translates to even more dev time spent tweaking, so they didn't have to have canoes to navigate the forums.

The technology to make this happen is already in the game. Everyone below CP160 is scaled anyway. Everyone in PvP has the Battle Spirit debuff applied to them. This not an enigma that the devs need to spent years to solve, it is solved.
Not to mention that they spend a lot of dev time every year to create veteran hardmode dungeons and trials, which only a negligible amount of people actually play. And would you know it, that also requires tweaking settings so it isn't too easy or too hard, which they do continuously. Compared to that, applying already existing mechanics to already existing content is trivial.

Being so trivial might actually be to its detriment, because it doesn't appear to be substantial enough for a chapter feature (especially when it's limited to a specific game mode, in this case overland), and they rarely do new game systems outside of that.

Yeah my mind is changed

make a separate Veteran instance, We know ZOS can make ESO overland and story bosses hard because they used to be. Many of the improvements I listed were what ESO used to have.

(though I still want Arena/Dungeon/Trial Treatment for the Big Bads)

also I don't care for the ideas like;
1) something should be made only for the lowest common denominator - in that case they shouldn't bother to make end game content at all and should make everything as easy as Bleakrock. Sounds Boring and Unmemorable.

2) that Story and Endgame are separate or mutually exclusive - I think that this concept floating around the forums is alienating too many people like myself and overall is really undercutting the well written quests ESO has.

Honestly the comparisons to Craglorn and how bad things used to be are not an accurate framing because that time of the game split up players WAY more than what is proposed.

It honestly would not surprise me if ZOS is working on a Difficulty Setting but wanted the Champion Point revision first - seeing as how they acknowledged it in the past as something they wanted out with One Tamriel but needed more work on.

robertthebard

exeeter702 wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Quote me asking for any of this? I don't care what other players ask for, if I think it's a good idea, I'll say so, if not, I'll say so. This isn't a good idea. If it was made like DDO, it would be a better idea, where all the quest zones are already instanced, but it's not. So how do they recoup the loss of money doing the development on these maps? How many threads are we going to get with something along the lines of "but this is stupid hard" if it were ever to be implemented? I mean, seriously, the last thread about this I could have cut game names out, and copied a thread from the DDO forums, and nobody would know the difference, other than user names.

But it doesn't just stop there, does it? Because if it's ever hinted that they're considering it, what's the next topic of discussion going to be? "Well, we'll need better rewards, or it's just not worth it". This even came up in the last thread about this here. What's that sound like to you? So it's not "We need more challenge", or, more accurately, it's not all it is, it's also, "but we need better stuff to go with it, because just getting that "more challenge" isn't enough for us, we need to be compensated for that too".

Better to leave it as is.

You are grossly over estimating the development cost of implementing a higher level scaled zone. The mega server already handles multiple instances of zones when need be. Creating the ability to produce instances that are scaled to the highest tower level a player character can be is a non factor outside of zos not wanting to segregate players. The irony there is that they are perfectly fine creating handholding systems like the companion feature that further promotes playing solo.

Improve the AI to how it used to be back in year 1. Provide overland content for players that have commited the crime of making their characters as strong as they could be.


DnD online is an absolute terrible example for more reasons than I cam even begin to elaborate on here.

Actually, DDO is the best example, because every quest is an instance unto itself. There is no overland content, the wilderness zones have a minimum level requirement, and are instanced as well, they just don't have a difficulty option. All of the quests, however, do. They have Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite and Reaper 1 through 10. Since this is inline with what's being asked for here, it's a perfect example.

As to "grossly overestimating"? No. What you meant to say is that it already supports multiple instance of identical content, and if not, that's what you should have meant to say, because that's the reality as it stands right now. How well it supports this currently, I guess we can check all the lag threads, yes?

But let's look at what they have to do. They have to improve the AI, or revert it, but only for specific zones. Then they have to insure that these zones don't overlap, because Joe Casual really won't appreciate having to deal with mobs in the vet zone, and heavens help the devs if a vet player winds up in the normal zone. All of this will have to be accessible in the log in screen, it's an open world for each zone, after all, you don't have to area transition to leave a town to begin questing. So essentially, they have to remake the entire game, barring assets, since the assets can remain the same. Assets meaning maps, non-combat NPCs, etc.

...and this came out in the last thread, but they're going to have to completely rework the loot system, because if not "it's not worth it". Despite "but we need more challenge", you'll be amazed at how fast it changes to "we need better loot for this". You might even be thinking "well, of course it's going to have better loot", to which I have to ask "Why? Isn't about how much you need to have more challenge, not how bad the loot is on the regular server?".

Sevn

It's not a matter of "can" they do it, it's a matter of why. Reducing the overall difficulty for free in order to save your game is entirely different than spending time and resources to implement a feature that will net ZERO profits.

Unless you are willing to pay for this feature it doesn't matter what ideas you all keep coming up with time after time with these pointless threads. I say pointless because none of the people who keep pushing this answers the most basic question, why?

They just jump past it because they have zero interest in paying for this. Stop thinking like a gamer and more like a business because I assure you if it doesn't make a profit it will not happen. 95% of what has been requested that would be QoL features has ended up in the crown store.

I'm sitting here reading these and wondering just how you think it's going to go when they approach their bosses, suits who only care about the bottomline" hey we want to do a solid for a small portion of the population for free that's going to take time and resources from other projects we can profit from."

Yeah, that sounds like a winning proposal.

volkeswagon

I would be for two tiers of servers. They can make everything harder on the vet server and make WB'S, harrowstorms and dragons easier on normal as well as reducing the frequency of npc's everywhere. There have been times when I called it a night because i just got fed up with having to constantly kill npc's every 5 seconds. Not that it's difficult but really annoying. It's like trying to take a walk to the store with flys and mosquitoes constantly buzzing around your head. After awhile you'll go nuts.

Rudrani

really should have separate vet and normal instances overland. rewards should also be scalled to that.

ThorianB

I am not against a harder version of overland as long as it is optional. I think the biggest reason why it would never happen is that it would probably require a lot more hardware and expense to do properly. Sure they could just debuff you like they buff newbies up to CP 160 but what is the point in that? You could just run around in green mismatch gear or remove CP or both and get a similar effect.

You would want it done properly where maybe all normal mobs are "elite" and elite mobs are public dungeon boss level. World bosses are more like normal trial bosses, etc. That would be fun but it would require them to create a whole new mirror that would require as much hardware as the current version.

A good compromise would be to make the Chapters as they currently are and make the DLCs vet overland. Maybe have a NPC near the first wayshrine in the zone that will give you a 2 hour buff to make the zone more normal level but reduce the non quest rewards or something like that.

robertthebard

ThorianB wrote: »

I am not against a harder version of overland as long as it is optional. I think the biggest reason why it would never happen is that it would probably require a lot more hardware and expense to do properly. Sure they could just debuff you like they buff newbies up to CP 160 but what is the point in that? You could just run around in green mismatch gear or remove CP or both and get a similar effect.

You would want it done properly where maybe all normal mobs are "elite" and elite mobs are public dungeon boss level. World bosses are more like normal trial bosses, etc. That would be fun but it would require them to create a whole new mirror that would require as much hardware as the current version.

A good compromise would be to make the Chapters as they currently are and make the DLCs vet overland. Maybe have a NPC near the first wayshrine in the zone that will give you a 2 hour buff to make the zone more normal level but reduce the non quest rewards or something like that.

I was all ready to throw an agree on here, until I read the last paragraph. So only Vet players would buy DLC?

GreenhaloX

How about a new area that is yet to be unlocked to be the same group zone and harder contents as Craglorn was before One Tamriel? We can also have one geyser in Summerset, a dragon in each northern and southern Elsweyr, and one harrowstorm in Western Skyrim and the Reach to be a solo only area. Perhaps, a dolmen in each of the non-DLC map zones where the boss is a vet DLC dungeon level boss, and you can only go into that particular dolmen sololy (and your trusty ole companion sidekick, of course.) There you go, you all hardcore game warriors. Until then, go and tackle a dragon or harrowstorm by yourself or with just 1 other hardcore ESO player (no more.) Enjoy that, and don't get eaten by the dragon!

ThorianB

robertthebard wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

I am not against a harder version of overland as long as it is optional. I think the biggest reason why it would never happen is that it would probably require a lot more hardware and expense to do properly. Sure they could just debuff you like they buff newbies up to CP 160 but what is the point in that? You could just run around in green mismatch gear or remove CP or both and get a similar effect.

You would want it done properly where maybe all normal mobs are "elite" and elite mobs are public dungeon boss level. World bosses are more like normal trial bosses, etc. That would be fun but it would require them to create a whole new mirror that would require as much hardware as the current version.

A good compromise would be to make the Chapters as they currently are and make the DLCs vet overland. Maybe have a NPC near the first wayshrine in the zone that will give you a 2 hour buff to make the zone more normal level but reduce the non quest rewards or something like that.

I was all ready to throw an agree on here, until I read the last paragraph. So only Vet players would buy DLC?

You should read the ENTIRE last paragraph. Bolded the important part to counter the reservation you had because i knew some people would be like " i don't want to be forced to do hard content to enjoy the game!"