With the addition of companions now more than ever a veteran overland is needed

AyaDark

If you just want that mobs be harder - more hp, more attack:

Just to ask to make button or potion , that will let you get 3 times more damage, and strike 3 times less as example.

It is ease to do.

Or you want something different ?

TX12001rwb17_ESO

And how do you propose they add a "Veteran" overland mode? unlike Dungeons the Overland holds many more players, hundreds more infact, the only way I could see it are by two options...

1. Create a duplicate instance of every zone kind of like what ESO had before "Tamriel Unlimited" however most people likely will not care about such things so the "Veteran" zone may be a Ghost Town with only a small handful of players and we saw how well that worked with the original implementation.

2. A much more simple option is when a player decides to use "Veteran" overland, instead of the enemies becoming stronger they instead become weaker.

Come to think of it you can make yourself weaker simply by removing your CP or your gear from your character so option two is kind of pointless.

Katahdin

There is no way to relevel a zone to one character when you can have a level 3 and a CP810 in the same place.

They arent going to make a complete separate veteran version of the game.

The only way is a self toggle that nerfs the character, turns off CP, removes all armor and gives you a white generic weapon instead of a golded out set weapon

AyaDark

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bisses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

mocap

robertthebard wrote: »

"Build the game to suit me everyone, and then add more rewards, because if not, it's not worth my time"..

fixed

robertthebard

Eedat wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

So I was running around Stonefalls this morning, trying to find a quest that I missed on the map, and saw a player die to three scamps. CP level on the player? 0. Nope.

CP 0? You literally can't be CP 0. A new account that hits level 50 goes directly to CP 10 lol

So you literally can be CP 0 then? I mean, all that's required is not having a level 50 on your account, right?

barney2525

robertthebard wrote: »

So I was running around Stonefalls this morning, trying to find a quest that I missed on the map, and saw a player die to three scamps. CP level on the player? 0. Nope.

Observation doesn't help explain much in this game. Yesterday my toon died to a delve boss because I didn't realize my fat fingers had hit the ESC. While I'm trying to figure out what the heck I'm looking at and why aren't my buttons working, my toon is actually just standing there, saying ' hit me please'. It happens.

I've also been killed while standing in a spot I thought was safe while I went to make some coffee.

robertthebard

barney2525 wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

So I was running around Stonefalls this morning, trying to find a quest that I missed on the map, and saw a player die to three scamps. CP level on the player? 0. Nope.

Observation doesn't help explain much in this game. Yesterday my toon died to a delve boss because I didn't realize my fat fingers had hit the ESC. While I'm trying to figure out what the heck I'm looking at and why aren't my buttons working, my toon is actually just standing there, saying ' hit me please'. It happens.

I've also been killed while standing in a spot I thought was safe while I went to make some coffee.

Indeed, I died yesterday to a WB, because my food ran out right when I didn't dodge far enough. However, observation is the only metric we have available to assess the general community in game, instead of on the forums. I mean, if we use the forums as a frame of reference, nobody dodges anything, ever. I've seen that posted both here, and on the GW 2 forums. On the GW 2 forums, the guy was so convinced he was right about that that he wanted to revamp the entire tutorial system to last all the way to cap, so that people learned to play the "right" way. Or, a situation as with the last poster that quoted this post, where he claimed it was impossible to have 0 CP.

Iccotak

For me it is less general overland and more so that the Story Bosses are a Joke.

Let's be honest mobs don't matter, nobody wants to waste too much time fighting them - even in harder content players will often skip them.
It's the Bosses that make the experience memorable and memorable is good. If they revamped the bosses and went forward with optional difficulty for the Main Villain then I'd be more excited getting into a storyline.
Sure I like the writing but again if the Villain is not a threat in gameplay then it undercuts the story.

What others have said about why "Just NERF Yourself" does NOT work.

suggestions regarding "why not do x y z to make it harder" defeats the entire purpose for asking for an optional hard mode and doesn't help anything. As if I have to gimp myself to make the BIG BAD EVIL guy of the entire year hard, then doesn't that mean there is a design flaw somewhere? Imagine if Lich King from WoW's wrath of the lich king was as easy as a story boss in ESO.

With that logic, why should vet dungeons exist? Or vet arenas? Just take off your gear or not level champ points duh.

To clarify im not directing this all at you; this is towards anyone who thinks "in order to make **IMPORTANT** story bosses hard just nerf yourself duhhhhh" is a valid argument. It isn't. Want to know why bosses exist in MMOs and what makes them memorable? Difficulty. Having to learn mechanics that tie in with their character/story, all of that. The story too! But a story can crumble under a lackluster boss fight. Where as a boss fight can't really crumble under a crappy story. Because even if the story is bad, the boss fight was fun/cool and thus memorable.

The problem is not that my characters are too strong. The problem is that I have learned a lot about how to play the game over the years, and for that I feel punished when it comes to enjoying the story of new chapters. I don't expect a reward, but providing experienced players with a less enjoyable ride than beginners seems bad for player retention.

Even if I start a new character and refrain from assigning any CP points on it, by now I know at least some things about how to play all classes in a reasonably efficient manner. The main story quests are balanced for beginners who are still mildly clueless about how the game works, and as a result they are not really enjoyable for experienced players who already know more or less what to do.

The Greymoor chapter was not exactly my favourite, with its entirely predictable story and its mostly anonymous and forgettable characters, but this has been a real problem for me in all recent chapters. For Morrowind I started a new character of the then-new Warden class to quest in Vvardenfell, and for Elsweyr I started a baby necromancer, and that sort of worked out, but I would still like to have a meaningful experience of a new chapter story on my main character.

Not just for the skill points and the achievements -- I like questing in new zones with the character I designed in 2014 and which is still one of the characters I play regularly, but all fights, and the boss fights in particular, are anticlimactic.

I'm not sure what could be done about this, but I am definitely not happy with deliberately stopping a fight for the dialog to have time to finish before the supposedly tough arch-villain of the chapter lies dead on the ground. In situations like this I reach for the difficulty slider in single player games and move it up a notch or two. No rewards expected there, and usually none given. Challenge, and the sense of accomplishment that comes from beating it, is its own reward.

And one of my big concerns definitely is player retention. It just doesn’t seem to make any sense to have the new story focus on accessibility for new players but not also being engaging for long-term players.

In fact I had almost zero interest in this new chapter, despite all the awesome features that were added, because I could not be invested in a story with a lackluster ending.

In my opinion; If your campaign "Big Bad Villain" isn’t even remotely end game content, then they’re a wasted main villain who's ultimately forgotten about because no one will take them seriously. Period.

it kills immersion in the story when the "big bad" isn't really a threat in gameplay. Let players match the gameplay to the lore and hype

story bosses like the Dragons in Elweyr we’re just pure time gates.
They were seriously extremely anti-climatic.

That issue would not be resolved by “self nerfing“.
Speaking as somebody that was using less than ideal gear & stats, it was still a boring fight - in fact even more so because it just took longer.

In order to ACTUALLY make it Hard, this would require the separate veteran instance to have different mechanics.

Because Mechanics are what makes or breaks a good boss fight. End of story.

Iccotak

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

robertthebard

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

This bolded is the primary issue I have with this whole scenario, other than some other stuff I've touched on in this thread, and others like it. We're all in the same instance. If every overland zone was a unique instance, as quests/wilderness areas are handled in DDO, it would be easier to adjust. They're not. So, the developers have to essentially rebuild the entire game to provide something that can't be monetized, and so will never recoup the development cost, and will only be used by a fraction of the player base. Game forums tend to represent about 15% of a game's population, give or take a few points, and even with that, we're still not getting a high percentage of agreement on whether it's needed or not.

Of those that want it, I wonder how many actually want it to attempt to leverage better overland drops? It will be a point of contention if something like this is ever done.

Iccotak

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

This bolded is the primary issue I have with this whole scenario, other than some other stuff I've touched on in this thread, and others like it. We're all in the same instance. If every overland zone was a unique instance, as quests/wilderness areas are handled in DDO, it would be easier to adjust. They're not. So, the developers have to essentially rebuild the entire game to provide something that can't be monetized, and so will never recoup the development cost, and will only be used by a fraction of the player base. Game forums tend to represent about 15% of a game's population, give or take a few points, and even with that, we're still not getting a high percentage of agreement on whether it's needed or not.

Of those that want it, I wonder how many actually want it to attempt to leverage better overland drops? It will be a point of contention if something like this is ever done.

I think that people forget that Overland is what you do to build-up to Dungeons and Trials. (The new Companions feature was made to ease and encourage people into Dungeon content)

I am currently playing a fresh nightblade and dragonknight and some overland content can still be difficult, in that I have been killed (or almost) when attacked by 4-6 enemies rather than the standard 3.

So my advice to ZOS would be to review standard overland enemy design. Maybe increase the radius in which enemies pay attention to you. Take the single player games for example, if you killed a guy there was a likely chance you had a team of 5-8 people coming for you. This is certainly the case for ESO public dungeons. This upped the stakes way more in comparison to the measly three we usually fight.

IMO I think a good portion of the "Easy Overland" complaint stems more from the Story Bosses being too easy. All too often we do a quest that builds up its Antagonist like they're biggest baddest dude on the block but it always leads to disappointment.

While I agree with ZOS on overland accessibility - the story is being marketed to both casual and endgame players and should work to engage both in gameplay and story. Especially when the Dungeons are being further integrated into the story experience. It would just make sense to make an optional difficulty for Main Story Bosses.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about how rewards would work for this mode because it's annoying tbh - I just want the bosses to have the same effort that dungeons and trials get.

EDIT: Make the Main Story Bosses HARD. Give them a Veteran Option for player seeking a challenge.
Especially If you are going to make Dungeons more part of the Main Story - otherwise you have this incredibly inconsistent story experience where the lackeys are more powerful than your Main Villain who You Hyped and Built Up over the course of the Story for a Year!
Also make them a solo or group instance because having someone else come in and kill them when the fight starts just kills the mood (Looking at you Kaalgrontiid)

Fata1moose

Ryuvain wrote: »

Dankulakhan wrote: »

I don't get why ppl want veteran overland. The TTK would be awful and add to this the fact that there are packs of mobs every two meters everywhere it's going to be a hellscape. The current TTK with decent gear and high CP is a blessing imo.
Do you all really enjoy cluncky slow and broken eso combat so much?

Exactly. I really don't see the reasoning considering overworld is mostly for travel. Dungeons or world bosses are for difficulty.

Because I want to go through quests at a slower pace, I actually want to have to pay attention to my own health and move out of AOEs, etc. I want an experience where I'm engaged with what's happening instead of just killing things far too quickly for anything to matter. I don't have to toggle vet overland when I'm just traveling or collecting resources so it would only make travel more tedious if that's what you wanted.

Kwoung wrote: »

Imagine all the poor citizens, they already struggle with the monsters how they are! It would be a devoid wasteland of dead bodies littering the roads and towns everywhere if they were made more powerful!

It's called not toggling on Veteran Overland or taking a debuff scroll/food if that was the implementation

robertthebard wrote: »

Of those that want it, I wonder how many actually want it to attempt to leverage better overland drops? It will be a point of contention if something like this is ever done.

Personally I don't care about greater rewards, there are probably some that would like to collect more purple items, but the CP 2.0 Crafting tree has a slottable to increase chances so anyone will likely have that option they can tailor to the overland if they want it (in normal or a proposed vet).

Eedat wrote: »

Isn't it hilarious how fast the "I should be able to play the game as I want" crowd (Edit: alright, obviously not all of them) does a complete 180 when people ask for the option of more difficulty? Weird how it's actually "the game should be tailored to my exact preferences only and everyone else's should be diminished". But please, tell us more about these "CP 0" new players you see dying to overworld mobs even though it's literally impossible to be CP 0. Weird how the most upvoted comment in the thread is literally factually impossible. Guess it doesn't matter when your sole intention is to spite others kappa

To be fair I don't think the players who wanted story dungeons are the same one's that are trying to gatekeep the way other's play. It's likely it's actually the same party in both cases.

robertthebard

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

This bolded is the primary issue I have with this whole scenario, other than some other stuff I've touched on in this thread, and others like it. We're all in the same instance. If every overland zone was a unique instance, as quests/wilderness areas are handled in DDO, it would be easier to adjust. They're not. So, the developers have to essentially rebuild the entire game to provide something that can't be monetized, and so will never recoup the development cost, and will only be used by a fraction of the player base. Game forums tend to represent about 15% of a game's population, give or take a few points, and even with that, we're still not getting a high percentage of agreement on whether it's needed or not.

Of those that want it, I wonder how many actually want it to attempt to leverage better overland drops? It will be a point of contention if something like this is ever done.

I think that people forget that Overland is what you do to build-up to Dungeons and Trials. (The new Companions feature was made to ease and encourage people into Dungeon content)

I am currently playing a fresh nightblade and dragonknight and some overland content can still be difficult, in that I have been killed (or almost) when attacked by 4-6 enemies rather than the standard 3.

So my advice to ZOS would be to review standard overland enemy design. Maybe increase the radius in which enemies pay attention to you. Take the single player games for example, if you killed a guy there was a likely chance you had a team of 5-8 people coming for you. This is certainly the case for ESO public dungeons. This upped the stakes way more in comparison to the measly three we usually fight.

IMO I think a good portion of the "Easy Overland" complaint stems more from the Story Bosses being too easy. All too often we do a quest that builds up its Antagonist like they're biggest baddest dude on the block but it always leads to disappointment.

While I agree with ZOS on overland accessibility - the story is being marketed to both casual and endgame players and should work to engage both in gameplay and story. Especially when the Dungeons are being further integrated into the story experience. It would just make sense to make an optional difficulty for Main Story Bosses.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about how rewards would work for this mode because it's annoying tbh - I just want the bosses to have the same effort that dungeons and trials get.

That would be great for me. I mean, I've done progression raiding across several MMOs, and I've been soloing Dolmens on a Stam NB since before CP. But then there's the player I mentioned in my initial post. So they play the first chapter of their story, and get to the boss, and can't get a group to finish it. What's the reaction going to be? Are they going to sit in a queue for how ever long, or are they just going to get frustrated, and log out, and find something else to play?

Again, where they're instanced, sure, they could make an option, but it's still going to have a cost, and how much of that cost is actually going to be rewarded in either financial ways, or lots of players using it? It's not like they can sell it in the store to those that want it. Some would buy it, I'm sure, some people will buy anything. But others will be here raging about having to buy it.

Jacozilla

Fata1moose wrote: »

As the title says, overland questing has been far too easy for those of us that hit certain CP thresholds and have decent equipment. Even while purposely nerfing our characters through deallocation of CP and unequipping gear there's no forgetting proper rotations that also make the overland trivial. Trash dies in a couple of abilities and bosses die while they are still monologuing. Companions will see little use as support for experienced players outside of dungeons. A veteran overland would help questing feel more engaging and the zone updates more appealing. Companions could then be a valuable addition to even veteran players-- but their use in a veteran overland shouldn't then make even veteran content trivial.

With the new CP system and companions on the way now would be a good time to finally add a more difficult overland that provides a tough but fair challenge regardless of a companion being summoned or not.

In short, no.

With details why, to be constructive and polite --
a) there are plenty of content that provides full rotation time and challenge - buffing overland trash to need a full rotation parse may be what you personally desire, but there is no way the majority of the user base would want the challenge scale to start at a point where overland trash = same level as currently soloing a base vet dungeon

b) there already IS overland content you can parse full rotation with - world bosses. Yes some WBs are easier than others, but even the 'easy' ones require multiple rotations through. There isn't a single WB, not even in easiest base zones, that you can insta nuke without at least a few rotation swaps.

Iccotak

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

This bolded is the primary issue I have with this whole scenario, other than some other stuff I've touched on in this thread, and others like it. We're all in the same instance. If every overland zone was a unique instance, as quests/wilderness areas are handled in DDO, it would be easier to adjust. They're not. So, the developers have to essentially rebuild the entire game to provide something that can't be monetized, and so will never recoup the development cost, and will only be used by a fraction of the player base. Game forums tend to represent about 15% of a game's population, give or take a few points, and even with that, we're still not getting a high percentage of agreement on whether it's needed or not.

Of those that want it, I wonder how many actually want it to attempt to leverage better overland drops? It will be a point of contention if something like this is ever done.

I think that people forget that Overland is what you do to build-up to Dungeons and Trials. (The new Companions feature was made to ease and encourage people into Dungeon content)

I am currently playing a fresh nightblade and dragonknight and some overland content can still be difficult, in that I have been killed (or almost) when attacked by 4-6 enemies rather than the standard 3.

So my advice to ZOS would be to review standard overland enemy design. Maybe increase the radius in which enemies pay attention to you. Take the single player games for example, if you killed a guy there was a likely chance you had a team of 5-8 people coming for you. This is certainly the case for ESO public dungeons. This upped the stakes way more in comparison to the measly three we usually fight.

IMO I think a good portion of the "Easy Overland" complaint stems more from the Story Bosses being too easy. All too often we do a quest that builds up its Antagonist like they're biggest baddest dude on the block but it always leads to disappointment.

While I agree with ZOS on overland accessibility - the story is being marketed to both casual and endgame players and should work to engage both in gameplay and story. Especially when the Dungeons are being further integrated into the story experience. It would just make sense to make an optional difficulty for Main Story Bosses.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about how rewards would work for this mode because it's annoying tbh - I just want the bosses to have the same effort that dungeons and trials get.

That would be great for me. I mean, I've done progression raiding across several MMOs, and I've been soloing Dolmens on a Stam NB since before CP. But then there's the player I mentioned in my initial post. So they play the first chapter of their story, and get to the boss, and can't get a group to finish it. What's the reaction going to be? Are they going to sit in a queue for how ever long, or are they just going to get frustrated, and log out, and find something else to play?

Again, where they're instanced, sure, they could make an option, but it's still going to have a cost, and how much of that cost is actually going to be rewarded in either financial ways, or lots of players using it? It's not like they can sell it in the store to those that want it. Some would buy it, I'm sure, some people will buy anything. But others will be here raging about having to buy it.

I think as long as it is optional while still applauding a solo player doing the normal version on their own and rewarding them for their accomplishment (normal would be designed to be completed by fresh or casual players)

Having a harder difficulty to come back to later if or if you just want to experience the fight again provides more re-playability and value to zones.
Beating it on Hard is not a requirement just as you don't have to beat a dungeon on hard to complete its story

Faulgor

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

How is this a problem? Even today, a level 3 newbie can play together with a max CP comrade. That was the whole point of One Tamriel.
How would this not work in the long run when it has worked for years?

Xebov

Fata1moose wrote: »

With the new CP system and companions on the way now would be a good time to finally add a more difficult overland that provides a tough but fair challenge regardless of a companion being summoned or not.

The first issue you have is what you want to use as a base line for difficulty? The DPS range on DD players is realy big already so having one additional difficulty could create a situation where normal is to easy but vet is to hard for some and where even vet is to easy due to the high differences.

The second problem is what reason would players have to play it? This idea is frequently coupled with better rewards. This however would be unfair for support players (Tank/Healer) as they usually dont make for good DDs (even with DD gear) to deal with higher difficulty and would be left behind.

SeaGtGruff

Fata1moose wrote: »

As the title says, overland questing has been far too easy for those of us that hit certain CP thresholds and have decent equipment. Even while purposely nerfing our characters through deallocation of CP and unequipping gear there's no forgetting proper rotations that also make the overland trivial.

As your second sentence suggests-- although I'm not sure whether you "got it"-- the perceived difficulty of overland content is more about your skills than your CP and gear. The spread of your Attribute Points is also a factor, since your Stamina and/or Magicka points matter, too.

Even if you remove all of your gear-- armor, jewelry, weapons, and shields-- and deallocate all of your CP, you're still going to find overland content "trivial" if you're using powerful skills and have all or most of your AP allocated to Stamina or Magicka.

Conversely, you could be CP810 and have awesome equipment, but if your AP is heavily into Health and you don't have a lot of powerful skills slotted, then you might find overland content to be more challenging.

Personally, I would love to see some sort of difficulty slider, if only to put an end to these sorts of threads.

Fata1moose

Faulgor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

How is this a problem? Even today, a level 3 newbie can play together with a max CP comrade. That was the whole point of One Tamriel.
How would this not work in the long run when it has worked for years?

The only place this would be a 'problem' in overland is world bosses and group events and I guarantee that a vet player with debuffs is still more effective than the many players that just use the one spammable. Someone pulling a Harrowstorm before there's enough people and causing three shrikes to spawn will have much more of a negative effect on your experience as compared to an experienced player with a debuff.

Iccotak

Faulgor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

How is this a problem? Even today, a level 3 newbie can play together with a max CP comrade. That was the whole point of One Tamriel.
How would this not work in the long run when it has worked for years?

There is clearly a gameplay difference between a buff which is designed to scale content for everyone in comparison to opting into a de-buff that makes a good build worse off than a fresh player who is playing it normally within the same instance.

That is backwards progression. If it was a separate instance it would still maintain a sense of linear progression.

But Again - this goes back to my point that Overland is the starting point. It’s not the end point. The starting point is supposed to be easier than the end point - as is the case for Dungeons.

Like I said, I think that most issues of “overland difficulty“ would be solved or largely rectified with increased enemies per fight (increased to 4-6 from the standard 3) and an overhaul of the story bosses with an optional veteran difficulty setting.

For general overland, Take a note from Skyrim and have “ranks” for bad guys. Highwayman and Chiefs had more health and did more damage than the standard Bandit. While Bears and Tigers were often more dangerous than the chiefs.

The problem is NOT the scaling of all players, the problem is that too many of the enemies are equal in terms of health and damage output.

Make “Mini-Bosses” more frequent.

robertthebard

Fata1moose wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

How is this a problem? Even today, a level 3 newbie can play together with a max CP comrade. That was the whole point of One Tamriel.
How would this not work in the long run when it has worked for years?

The only place this would be a 'problem' in overland is world bosses and group events and I guarantee that a vet player with debuffs is still more effective than the many players that just use the one spammable. Someone pulling a Harrowstorm before there's enough people and causing three shrikes to spawn will have much more of a negative effect on your experience as compared to an experienced player with a debuff.

Even when that experienced player is the one that pulls too soon? I don't think so. I think player experience plays a larger role in this discussion as well. Someone that "got gud" at Dark Souls, for example, will have an easy time with any of the content here. Where do we cap this difficulty spike at?

Iccotak

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

How is this a problem? Even today, a level 3 newbie can play together with a max CP comrade. That was the whole point of One Tamriel.
How would this not work in the long run when it has worked for years?

The only place this would be a 'problem' in overland is world bosses and group events and I guarantee that a vet player with debuffs is still more effective than the many players that just use the one spammable. Someone pulling a Harrowstorm before there's enough people and causing three shrikes to spawn will have much more of a negative effect on your experience as compared to an experienced player with a debuff.

Even when that experienced player is the one that pulls too soon? I don't think so. I think player experience plays a larger role in this discussion as well. Someone that "got gud" at Dark Souls, for example, will have an easy time with any of the content here. Where do we cap this difficulty spike at?

Exactly, also this “De buff“ doesn’t actually solve the problem - it’s at best a Band-Aid solution and at worst just highlights the problem even more.

robertthebard

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

How is this a problem? Even today, a level 3 newbie can play together with a max CP comrade. That was the whole point of One Tamriel.
How would this not work in the long run when it has worked for years?

The only place this would be a 'problem' in overland is world bosses and group events and I guarantee that a vet player with debuffs is still more effective than the many players that just use the one spammable. Someone pulling a Harrowstorm before there's enough people and causing three shrikes to spawn will have much more of a negative effect on your experience as compared to an experienced player with a debuff.

Even when that experienced player is the one that pulls too soon? I don't think so. I think player experience plays a larger role in this discussion as well. Someone that "got gud" at Dark Souls, for example, will have an easy time with any of the content here. Where do we cap this difficulty spike at?

Exactly, also this “De buff“ doesn’t actually solve the problem - it’s at best a Band-Aid solution and at worst just highlights the problem even more.

Yeah, but I think they could crank the difficulty up to 11, and it still wouldn't be enough for some of us. That's why I asked about where we should realistically cap it. I mean, I solo'd a few dolmens before I hit 50 on my main NB, because I had the radiant mission for them from the Fighter's Guild, and there weren't any players doing them, or interested in doing them. I think I died once on the first one, while I figured it out, but after that, I knew I could do it, but got to the point of "Do I really want to". This on my first toon here.

Do they build the game to make it impossible for me to do that? How would it affect Joe Casual? Even more interesting, how would it affect players thinking it needs to be ramped up now?

Hallothiel

Lordy people do forget.

Craglorn used to be hellish difficult. Groups of wasps would kill you just by looking at you.

And it was a dead zone. Hardly anyone went there. Which is why it was changed.

A few people on here may want overland HM but not the majority of players. That’s the reality.

Iccotak

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

How is this a problem? Even today, a level 3 newbie can play together with a max CP comrade. That was the whole point of One Tamriel.
How would this not work in the long run when it has worked for years?

The only place this would be a 'problem' in overland is world bosses and group events and I guarantee that a vet player with debuffs is still more effective than the many players that just use the one spammable. Someone pulling a Harrowstorm before there's enough people and causing three shrikes to spawn will have much more of a negative effect on your experience as compared to an experienced player with a debuff.

Even when that experienced player is the one that pulls too soon? I don't think so. I think player experience plays a larger role in this discussion as well. Someone that "got gud" at Dark Souls, for example, will have an easy time with any of the content here. Where do we cap this difficulty spike at?

Exactly, also this “De buff“ doesn’t actually solve the problem - it’s at best a Band-Aid solution and at worst just highlights the problem even more.

Yeah, but I think they could crank the difficulty up to 11, and it still wouldn't be enough for some of us. That's why I asked about where we should realistically cap it. I mean, I solo'd a few dolmens before I hit 50 on my main NB, because I had the radiant mission for them from the Fighter's Guild, and there weren't any players doing them, or interested in doing them. I think I died once on the first one, while I figured it out, but after that, I knew I could do it, but got to the point of "Do I really want to". This on my first toon here.

Do they build the game to make it impossible for me to do that? How would it affect Joe Casual? Even more interesting, how would it affect players thinking it needs to be ramped up now?

this goes back to my point that people forget that overland is the starting point - not the end point. Overland is the content that gets you to the Dungeons, Trials, and PvP - not the other way around

there are reasonable things ZOS could do to increase general difficulty and provide a better learning curve for joe casual from overland to dungeons but a whole "Veteran" instance is not one of them.

This is my feedback from playing fresh characters recently
1) increase general mob size from 3 to 4-6
2) add "Ranks" among the general mobs, like bandit "chiefs" and "highwaymen", who have more health, more damage, and more abilities
3) increase visibility among enemies: if I get in a fight with someone then that should be visible to their friend(s) who are several yards away.
4) increase scaling for dolmens (meaning that dolmens could scale to more players)

IMO this is a more specific fix that adds a reasonable level of increased difficulty, would better prepares players for public and group dungeons, and would make scenarios where the Companion is more useful and would not make things TOO easy for new players.

SshadowSscale

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

How is this a problem? Even today, a level 3 newbie can play together with a max CP comrade. That was the whole point of One Tamriel.
How would this not work in the long run when it has worked for years?

The only place this would be a 'problem' in overland is world bosses and group events and I guarantee that a vet player with debuffs is still more effective than the many players that just use the one spammable. Someone pulling a Harrowstorm before there's enough people and causing three shrikes to spawn will have much more of a negative effect on your experience as compared to an experienced player with a debuff.

Even when that experienced player is the one that pulls too soon? I don't think so. I think player experience plays a larger role in this discussion as well. Someone that "got gud" at Dark Souls, for example, will have an easy time with any of the content here. Where do we cap this difficulty spike at?

Exactly, also this “De buff“ doesn’t actually solve the problem - it’s at best a Band-Aid solution and at worst just highlights the problem even more.

Yeah, but I think they could crank the difficulty up to 11, and it still wouldn't be enough for some of us. That's why I asked about where we should realistically cap it. I mean, I solo'd a few dolmens before I hit 50 on my main NB, because I had the radiant mission for them from the Fighter's Guild, and there weren't any players doing them, or interested in doing them. I think I died once on the first one, while I figured it out, but after that, I knew I could do it, but got to the point of "Do I really want to". This on my first toon here.

Do they build the game to make it impossible for me to do that? How would it affect Joe Casual? Even more interesting, how would it affect players thinking it needs to be ramped up now?

this goes back to my point that people forget that overland is the starting point - not the end point. Overland is the content that gets you to the Dungeons, Trials, and PvP - not the other way around

there are reasonable things ZOS could do to increase general difficulty and provide a better learning curve for joe casual from overland to dungeons but a whole "Veteran" instance is not one of them.

This is my feedback from playing fresh characters recently
1) increase general mob size from 3 to 4-6
2) add "Ranks" among the general mobs, like bandit "chiefs" and "highwaymen", who have more health, more damage, and more abilities
3) increase visibility among enemies: if I get in a fight with someone then that should be visible to their friend(s) who are several yards away.
4) increase scaling for dolmens (meaning that dolmens could scale to more players)

IMO this is a more specific fix that adds a reasonable level of increased difficulty, would better prepares players for public and group dungeons, and would make scenarios where the Companion is more useful and would not make things TOO easy for new players.

why is it fine for solo players to ask for solo dungeons but we cannot ask for and optional.... note the word optional meaning its up to the players choice.... vet overland?

Iccotak

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Self toggle debuff and to make new zones harder only is an option.

Or it will take too much resources and other players will not like it.

This 2 thingth are possible i think.

If new zones will be harder it is OK too.

May be more some bosses on it like dragons and etc. It was fun.

the problem with this is that you are opting to make yourself less useful in comparison to your comrades

a de-buff would only work in a separate instance - putting everyone in the same instance with different difficulty settings just would not work in the long run

How is this a problem? Even today, a level 3 newbie can play together with a max CP comrade. That was the whole point of One Tamriel.
How would this not work in the long run when it has worked for years?

The only place this would be a 'problem' in overland is world bosses and group events and I guarantee that a vet player with debuffs is still more effective than the many players that just use the one spammable. Someone pulling a Harrowstorm before there's enough people and causing three shrikes to spawn will have much more of a negative effect on your experience as compared to an experienced player with a debuff.

Even when that experienced player is the one that pulls too soon? I don't think so. I think player experience plays a larger role in this discussion as well. Someone that "got gud" at Dark Souls, for example, will have an easy time with any of the content here. Where do we cap this difficulty spike at?

Exactly, also this “De buff“ doesn’t actually solve the problem - it’s at best a Band-Aid solution and at worst just highlights the problem even more.

Yeah, but I think they could crank the difficulty up to 11, and it still wouldn't be enough for some of us. That's why I asked about where we should realistically cap it. I mean, I solo'd a few dolmens before I hit 50 on my main NB, because I had the radiant mission for them from the Fighter's Guild, and there weren't any players doing them, or interested in doing them. I think I died once on the first one, while I figured it out, but after that, I knew I could do it, but got to the point of "Do I really want to". This on my first toon here.

Do they build the game to make it impossible for me to do that? How would it affect Joe Casual? Even more interesting, how would it affect players thinking it needs to be ramped up now?

this goes back to my point that people forget that overland is the starting point - not the end point. Overland is the content that gets you to the Dungeons, Trials, and PvP - not the other way around

there are reasonable things ZOS could do to increase general difficulty and provide a better learning curve for joe casual from overland to dungeons but a whole "Veteran" instance is not one of them.

This is my feedback from playing fresh characters recently
1) increase general mob size from 3 to 4-6
2) add "Ranks" among the general mobs, like bandit "chiefs" and "highwaymen", who have more health, more damage, and more abilities
3) increase visibility among enemies: if I get in a fight with someone then that should be visible to their friend(s) who are several yards away.
4) increase scaling for dolmens (meaning that dolmens could scale to more players)

IMO this is a more specific fix that adds a reasonable level of increased difficulty, would better prepares players for public and group dungeons, and would make scenarios where the Companion is more useful and would not make things TOO easy for new players.

why is it fine for solo players to ask for solo dungeons but we cannot ask for and optional.... note the word optional meaning its up to the players choice.... vet overland?

Solo dungeons aren't happening - that's part of the point for Companions

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7094639

Lambert says the idea behind Companions is to allow solo players and small groups to take on dungeons without worrying about becoming overwhelmed. As a solo player myself, I bluntly asked Lambert what took so long for something like that to be added.

"I think we've learned a lot over the years. And one of the main, recurring themes that we've heard from players, especially our more hardcore Elder Scrolls people, is people are scary. And there's some content that they aren't necessarily comfortable within a large group, but they would do with a couple of close, trusted friends. And so the beauty of this system and one of my hopes is, you know, you and a buddy could go and do four-player dungeons because you have two companions to help you out."

Another benefit to the upcoming Companion system, Lambert hopes, is that it'll give folks the confidence to take on tougher dungeons, thereby getting the chance to mingle and engage more with the ESO community.

"It will help players, A: develop stronger social ties in-game with their companions, but also, B: help them kind-of edge a little bit more into some of the group content and meeting other players potentially, which is really exciting to me, because that's where the magic of MMO happens, you know, meeting other people and talking with them and developing those really close social ties."

that said I think a Veteran Main Story Boss Instance (whether solo or group mode) would also be a great addition to better include endgame players in the story content. It has been a long requested feature from me and others

Cireous

I would be excited for any means by which Overland questing mobs might present a danger to my life and the life of my companion.

LapisLazuli99

I agree with the letting players never feel locked out of a zone due to level and think its true to Elder Scrolls as a series. That said Craglorn is my favorite region for a reason XD

As someone who wants harder zones I still think that overall their current method is the better choice. I'd love a way to get both though lol.