With the addition of companions now more than ever a veteran overland is needed

lemonizzle

Overland quests currently: "Brace yourself Champion, 'Gilgamesh, Consumer of Reality" is awaiting behind this door! He destroyed continents in one snap."
You enter, the boss has 400k hp tops, and dies in 3 second. You can't even finish one rotation. This is also the giga fight that was hyped for a whole chapter.

Iccotak

LapisLazuli99 wrote: »

I agree with the letting players never feel locked out of a zone due to level and think its true to Elder Scrolls as a series. That said Craglorn is my favorite region for a reason XD

As someone who wants harder zones I still think that overall their current method is the better choice. I'd love a way to get both though lol.

I think part of that is that the shift in Craglorn was treating it like a Public Dungeon Zone rather than a Group Dungeon Zone

which is why I think increasing mob size in general overland is the first step, 2-3 enemies are Not a threat. 4-6 enemies (or more) are a threat. Also increasing enemy visibility actually adds more consequences in combat as you are more likely to get the attention of others and bring more down on you - putting you in a position to use your resources wisely more frequently.

Then add ranked enemies and you are likely to have more of a challenge.

Now in this scenario: if you get the attention of one guy, there are now 5 more on their way and you have big one who has more health and deals more damage. All of them at once.
That is a tougher scenario than killing them 2 at a time in isolated fights

Iccotak

lemonizzle wrote: »

Overland quests currently: "Brace yourself Champion, 'Gilgamesh, Consumer of Reality" is awaiting behind this door! He destroyed continents in one snap."
You enter, the boss has 400k hp tops, and dies in 3 second. You can't even finish one rotation. This is also the giga fight that was hyped for a whole chapter.

This I think is more of a core issue of the difficulty rather than general mobs

Fata1moose

Hallothiel wrote: »

Lordy people do forget.

Craglorn used to be hellish difficult. Groups of wasps would kill you just by looking at you.

And it was a dead zone. Hardly anyone went there. Which is why it was changed.

A few people on here may want overland HM but not the majority of players. That’s the reality.

That's not a good example at all because Craglorn barely has any story to it it's just repeatable quests plus there are group zones which is entirely different from a vet zone that's balanced around one person.

Jacozilla wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

As the title says, overland questing has been far too easy for those of us that hit certain CP thresholds and have decent equipment. Even while purposely nerfing our characters through deallocation of CP and unequipping gear there's no forgetting proper rotations that also make the overland trivial. Trash dies in a couple of abilities and bosses die while they are still monologuing. Companions will see little use as support for experienced players outside of dungeons. A veteran overland would help questing feel more engaging and the zone updates more appealing. Companions could then be a valuable addition to even veteran players-- but their use in a veteran overland shouldn't then make even veteran content trivial.

With the new CP system and companions on the way now would be a good time to finally add a more difficult overland that provides a tough but fair challenge regardless of a companion being summoned or not.

In short, no.

With details why, to be constructive and polite --
a) there are plenty of content that provides full rotation time and challenge - buffing overland trash to need a full rotation parse may be what you personally desire, but there is no way the majority of the user base would want the challenge scale to start at a point where overland trash = same level as currently soloing a base vet dungeon

b) there already IS overland content you can parse full rotation with - world bosses. Yes some WBs are easier than others, but even the 'easy' ones require multiple rotations through. There isn't a single WB, not even in easiest base zones, that you can insta nuke without at least a few rotation swaps.

Again saying "Why don't you do this content instead?" Is not the point at all. I already do that stuff I want more difficult quests. Gatekeeping how others want to play the game by telling them to do something else is weird. It also doesn't matter if it's a majority of players that want it. Law of large numbers, 25% of 17,000,000 is 4,250,000 not an insignificant amount. Not to mention there are people who dropped the game or won't play the game because they find overland too easy. It's about growing the game as much as sustaining.

simox

theres no way they are gonna adjust behaviour/mechanics of the already thousands placed npcs troughout all the zones

realistically what we might see is a simple difficulty slider similar to the single player TES games, just buffing hp/dmg of mobs

doesnt sound very exciting no?


perhaps what might be possible is a veteran version for delves and public dungeons, would be abit easier to implement

MeltyLotus

Wouldn't it thin out the player base even more. Sucks to not be able to take on a boss cause no one else is around. That will be vet overland. few players around to do the stuff.

Companions are being added for that alone. Unless the map is popular atm or new, there could next to no one else around making WB and HS impossible for the average player.

If anything they to add more mobs to the overland, there's so much empty space. More trash mobs but maybe add a new "elite" class of mobs to the game to sprinkle around and keep you on your toes?

Fata1moose

MeltyLotus wrote: »

Wouldn't it thin out the player base even more. Sucks to not be able to take on a boss cause no one else is around. That will be vet overland. few players around to do the stuff.

Companions are being added for that alone. Unless the map is popular atm or new, there could next to no one else around making WB and HS impossible for the average player.

If anything they to add more mobs to the overland, there's so much empty space. More trash mobs but maybe add a new "elite" class of mobs to the game to sprinkle around and keep you on your toes?

It depends how they do it, SWTOR has different difficulties and I don't think that it changes instances. It could also only apply in personal instances not sure. But if that's the case where it has to be a different instance than they could just do the debuff food/scroll idea.

I don't like the idea of adding more mobs to the overland that's actually an improvement with newer zones where they look more realistic instead of having bears every two feet from one another. Biomes are more convincing. Increasing the density of placed mobs (such as say 4 vampires in a group instead of 2) would be OK in places but increasing mob sizes would affect players that are perfectly content with the overland difficulty. The point is not to change the difficulty for everyone, just the players that want it.

itsfatbass

I agree. Needs to be a toggle for overland.

Prof_Bawbag

Nah, Craglorn was garbage and other than nirn farmers and the main town hub, 99% of the zone was dead. There's a reason it was nerf'd no one went there. There are already zones where next to no one goes. Make stuff more difficult, it will be like playing vet gold all over again. See no one for days in some zones.

I agree it's easy, but the zones are populated to some extent and that's what ultimately matters.

These boards aren't representative of the reality most folk see in the game. I'm glad ZoS realise that too.

Sevn

Ryuvain wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Well,

If the change is easy to implement : sure, do it. It makes people happy without forcing anyone to do anything.
If it's hard to implement : there might be better use of resources . I can't judge that.

Theres 3 ways I see:
Overhauling all overland zones. (Lol)

Create a separate phase for it that would end up ghost towns. Basically doubles server load.

Lower the players own stats. Which honestly could already be done by themselves.

This right here. Might I add maybe a fourth option where they add a debuff toggle, but that essentially is what your number 3 does without them wasting time and resources on such an addition.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

People said to try to nerf yourself for overland content if you find it too easy.


The hardest challenge was running dry all the time with a 10k ressource pool. Every other attack had to be a heavy attack to get ressources back. So it basicly became skill-skill-heavy attack. It didn't add much of a challenge but just made things.. boring.

But resource management is what plays one of the crucial factors in challenge, the very thing you are asking for. Challenge isn't just about damage output. Take a Souls game for instance, if I had the resources to dodge every attack or continually pop off powerful attacks those games wouldn't be nearly as challenging as they are.

Regardless, proponents of this proposal need to first and foremost come up with a plan for Zos to monetize this content. It's dead in the water otherwise. If you don't have a significant amount of players that are willing to PAY for this, all arguments for it are moot.

They aren't going to spend time and resources maintaining new servers on content that will most certainly be drastically less populated for absolutely zero profits. Not happening.

A handful of players saying, "well I'd buy a companion if I had more challenging overland content" isn't enough when in reality they probably still wouldn't bother buying them and just use the empty zones to corner the markets on various saleable items.

Edit- For the record I'm not accusing anyone of having nefarious agendas for this request, I'm saying what I plan on doing if this content is ever implemented lol. Within a week anything they release will no longer be challenging for the vast majority of players requesting this as well I'm sure.

kargen27

SshadowSscale wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

So I was running around Stonefalls this morning, trying to find a quest that I missed on the map, and saw a player die to three scamps. CP level on the player? 0. Nope.

Then they could keep the overland toggled on Normal that changes nothing.

It changes everything. I've seen this discussion before. Here, and in DDO. When they finally got it in DDO, and started complaining that it was too hard, I picked up a nice little year ban from the forums for suggesting exactly what you suggest here, "Play a lower difficulty".

[snip]

If difficulty was determined entirely on people complaining then we wouldn't have vet trials, dungeons or HMs either. But the great thing is we can have both a normal overland and a veteran overland just like group content has scalable difficulty. It just has to be done in such a way that a player is made aware through the UI if they switch to veteran.

Nope, it was exactly that. The reason for the report was probably closer to "but he hurt my feelings by telling me what I've been telling players that want Elite quests toned down so they can solo it. Nobody's supposed to use our argument against us", and a snowflake mod that agreed with them.

The truly great thing is we have content for everyone right now, to one extent or another, that doesn't require any additional time spent redoing stuff for a minority of the playerbase that may actually take advantage of it. All of this was discussed the last time this came up though. It costs money to do this, and there's no way to monetize it that won't be considered "P2W", or that may actually be P2W... So it's money out of pocket, for no return.

Funny how it is perfectly fine for casual solo players to ask for a solo option for dungeons trials ic cyrodil etc yet when people ask for an option to make overland more difficult aka a vet toggle it quickly gets shut down as not needed or eltist being greedy or whatever the reason..... just saying tho

It isn't as easy as a toggle though. A story mode dungeon would presumably be available to only that player. That is why I think we don't have story mode. Would create a need for to many individual instances.

With overland who gets priority when two players end up at the same boss and one is in vet mode? If the answer is create a separate instance then you create the problem of a possible lack of population in some instances. Going into vet mode in Glenumbra to harvest flowers might give a player all kinds of advantage as there could be less players competing for the same resources.

robertthebard

lemonizzle wrote: »

Overland quests currently: "Brace yourself Champion, 'Gilgamesh, Consumer of Reality" is awaiting behind this door! He destroyed continents in one snap."
You enter, the boss has 400k hp tops, and dies in 3 second. You can't even finish one rotation. This is also the giga fight that was hyped for a whole chapter.

This just in: For some players, Gilgamesh sent them to a shrine. I call all the way back to my first post in this thread, where a player died to three scamps...

Hey, it's great that we're roflstomping all this stuff now. I mean, it's not like we can just equip blank gear, assign our CP, and faceroll everything based solely on that, right?

Iccotak

Sevn wrote: »

Regardless, proponents of this proposal need to first and foremost come up with a plan for Zos to monetize this content. It's dead in the water otherwise. If you don't have a significant amount of players that are willing to PAY for this, all arguments for it are moot.

They aren't going to spend time and resources maintaining new servers on content that will most certainly be drastically less populated for absolutely zero profits. Not happening.

A handful of players saying, "well I'd buy a companion if I had more challenging overland content" isn't enough when in reality they probably still wouldn't bother buying them and just use the empty zones to corner the markets on various saleable items.

Well that is not necessarily true

ZOS does implement quality of life features for the good of the game as is evident with the new tutorial which lets players choose their beginning destination which has been a major request for some time now. Or the Dungeon Finder and CP rework.

While I do think Overland could be harder and be a better learning curve and to encourage trying content like dungeons - I think that could be done through other means and not just a "veteran instance" and I do not think it has to be monetized to accomplish this.

We know that ZOS have talked about it and acknowledged that people have requested harder difficulties specifically for the Boss as well as overland.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwrb9x/

ZOS_MattF
Hello! We have no plans on implementing spears, but we have talked off and on about cool ways to do the one hand magic/one hand weapon thing. That's not on our roadmap anywhere, but we have been brainstorming.

There are so many cool things we could do! Seriously, we love these ideas too, but it all comes down to a matter of time and priorities.

EDIT: to respond to your edit. Yes, we've talked about this, in fact we tried to get that into the game as part of One Tamriel, but we just couldn't get it done. So we have ideas on how to have difficulty settings for overland content, but it's not currently planned. It's a great idea.

Iccotak

robertthebard wrote: »

lemonizzle wrote: »

Overland quests currently: "Brace yourself Champion, 'Gilgamesh, Consumer of Reality" is awaiting behind this door! He destroyed continents in one snap."
You enter, the boss has 400k hp tops, and dies in 3 second. You can't even finish one rotation. This is also the giga fight that was hyped for a whole chapter.

This just in: For some players, Gilgamesh sent them to a shrine. I call all the way back to my first post in this thread, where a player died to three scamps...

Hey, it's great that we're roflstomping all this stuff now. I mean, it's not like we can just equip blank gear, assign our CP, and faceroll everything based solely on that, right?

I think it is fair that people ask for a Hard Setting for the "Gilgamesh" of the Chapter, DLC, and Year.

While Overland is a starting point and it makes sense that it prioritizes accessibility - I think when it concerns the Main Story ZOS should prioritize engagement as that is being marketed to all players and is a big selling point.

Sure let new players do the story and beat an easy version of the Boss - but give end game players an engaging boss fight that pays off all the build up of the story. Especially the Boss fight that caps the end of the year.

XomRhoK

There were many similar threads, so i just repost my suggestion from another thread:

First of all players, the ones who choose Hard mode and who don't, must play together at same instance, to not divide player population, and experienced players still could help new ones.
Secondly, taking into account, previously voiced, concerns about AOE damage to players who don't chose Hard mode and simplicity of calculations and implementation, best solution, in my opinion, will be to place debuff on players who chose Hard mode, which decrease their damage done and increase damage recieved. But no one want to be weaker, so important part is right wording in description and rewards.
For example, two options in menu:
- Overland Veteran: Rumors about your adventures are widely known, all enemies will fight against you with additional fervor, they will deal double damage against you and resist against your attacks twice as good (+100% damage done and +50% more resist to overland NPCs. Dungeons, trials, duels and PvP excluded). While this option is active you will recieve special frame around your Health bar:

and can set special title Menace of Tamriel or Hero of Tamriel. Option can't be changed while in combat.
- Overland Veteran Hard Mode: Every citizen of Tamriel know your name and deeds, all enemies will fight for their lives against you, they will deal quadruple damage against you and resist against your attacks four times better (+300% damage done and +75% more resist to overland NPCs. Dungeons, trials, duels and PvP excluded). While this option is active you will recieve special frame around your Health bar:

and can set special title Terror of Tamriel or Champion of Tamriel. Option can't be changed while in combat.

Technicaly it's a debuff, but presented like achievment. The only doubtful moment is that Orc in pink towel, who didn't turn on Veteran mode, still can run and kill your boss in two hits, but at least he has no frame
Option purely for those who want additional challenge in overland and questing, no additional loot, gold or achievements, because this option easy to abuse.

And returning to quest and delve bosses, their health must be buffed anyway even for new players, becase it's too low, and players often even do not have time to see their mechanics and skills, there are some interesting ones. Recently i started do nothing in combat with quest/delve bosses just to see what they capable off.

Sevn

Iccotak wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Regardless, proponents of this proposal need to first and foremost come up with a plan for Zos to monetize this content. It's dead in the water otherwise. If you don't have a significant amount of players that are willing to PAY for this, all arguments for it are moot.

They aren't going to spend time and resources maintaining new servers on content that will most certainly be drastically less populated for absolutely zero profits. Not happening.

A handful of players saying, "well I'd buy a companion if I had more challenging overland content" isn't enough when in reality they probably still wouldn't bother buying them and just use the empty zones to corner the markets on various saleable items.

Well that is not necessarily true

ZOS does implement quality of life features for the good of the game as is evident with the new tutorial which lets players choose their beginning destination which has been a major request for some time now. Or the Dungeon Finder and CP rework.

While I do think Overland could be harder and be a better learning curve and to encourage trying content like dungeons - I think that could be done through other means and not just a "veteran instance" and I do not think it has to be monetized to accomplish this.

We know that ZOS have talked about it and acknowledged that people have requested harder difficulties specifically for the Boss as well as overland.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwrb9x/

ZOS_MattF
Hello! We have no plans on implementing spears, but we have talked off and on about cool ways to do the one hand magic/one hand weapon thing. That's not on our roadmap anywhere, but we have been brainstorming.

There are so many cool things we could do! Seriously, we love these ideas too, but it all comes down to a matter of time and priorities.

EDIT: to respond to your edit. Yes, we've talked about this, in fact we tried to get that into the game as part of One Tamriel, but we just couldn't get it done. So we have ideas on how to have difficulty settings for overland content, but it's not currently planned. It's a great idea.

Adding a separate Vet mode and having to maintain it for free for a small amount of players isn't something I'd classify as "for the good of the game", whereas the 3 examples you present obviously benefit the majority if not the entirety of the population. Not even close to being on the same level.

If it's not going to improve the quality of life for a majority or isn't something players are willing to pay for it makes zero sense to spend time and resources on it when that can go elsewhere. That's just the bottom line for any business.

Plus it looks like they've already come up with a MONETIZED solution to encourage players to try harder content (companions) without infringing other playstyles on all players.

This idea that overland needs to be harder to train everyone for harder content is assuming everyone or even half is interested in running such content. They could just implement 2 or 3 training dungeons for that even if so and sell them for profit. Much cheaper, faster, easier.

Probably one free one while the rest would be sold in the crown store for those who truly are interested in improving their combat performance. Just like they sell training dummies in the store for those interested in improving their combat prowess *hint hint*.

I want to make sure my position is clear, I'm all for it, I have big plans to abuse it to my own benefits if implemented, but unless you guys can accept something like this will have to have a price tag it's just pissing in the wind again and again and again and again and again and again....

Iccotak

Sevn wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Regardless, proponents of this proposal need to first and foremost come up with a plan for Zos to monetize this content. It's dead in the water otherwise. If you don't have a significant amount of players that are willing to PAY for this, all arguments for it are moot.

They aren't going to spend time and resources maintaining new servers on content that will most certainly be drastically less populated for absolutely zero profits. Not happening.

A handful of players saying, "well I'd buy a companion if I had more challenging overland content" isn't enough when in reality they probably still wouldn't bother buying them and just use the empty zones to corner the markets on various saleable items.

Well that is not necessarily true

ZOS does implement quality of life features for the good of the game as is evident with the new tutorial which lets players choose their beginning destination which has been a major request for some time now. Or the Dungeon Finder and CP rework.

While I do think Overland could be harder and be a better learning curve and to encourage trying content like dungeons - I think that could be done through other means and not just a "veteran instance" and I do not think it has to be monetized to accomplish this.

We know that ZOS have talked about it and acknowledged that people have requested harder difficulties specifically for the Boss as well as overland.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwrb9x/

ZOS_MattF
Hello! We have no plans on implementing spears, but we have talked off and on about cool ways to do the one hand magic/one hand weapon thing. That's not on our roadmap anywhere, but we have been brainstorming.

There are so many cool things we could do! Seriously, we love these ideas too, but it all comes down to a matter of time and priorities.

EDIT: to respond to your edit. Yes, we've talked about this, in fact we tried to get that into the game as part of One Tamriel, but we just couldn't get it done. So we have ideas on how to have difficulty settings for overland content, but it's not currently planned. It's a great idea.

Adding a separate Vet mode and having to maintain it for free for a small amount of players isn't something I'd classify as "for the good of the game", whereas the 3 examples you present obviously benefit the majority if not the entirety of the population. Not even close to being on the same level.

If it's not going to improve the quality of life for a majority or isn't something players are willing to pay for it makes zero sense to spend time and resources on it when that can go elsewhere. That's just the bottom line for any business.

Plus it looks like they've already come up with a MONETIZED solution to encourage players to try harder content (companions) without infringing other playstyles on all players.

This idea that overland needs to be harder to train everyone for harder content is assuming everyone or even half is interested in running such content. They could just implement 2 or 3 training dungeons for that even if so and sell them for profit. Much cheaper, faster, easier.

Probably one free one while the rest would be sold in the crown store for those who truly are interested in improving their combat performance. Just like they sell training dummies in the store for those interested in improving their combat prowess *hint hint*.

I want to make sure my position is clear, I'm all for it, I have big plans to abuse it to my own benefits if implemented, but unless you guys can accept something like this will have to have a price tag it's just pissing in the wind again and again and again and again and again and again....

I think you must’ve read misread me.

I am in no way advocating for a difficulty setting for Overland content (especially when it puts you in the same instance as everyone else, because that is immediately extremely unappealing on so many levels )

Rather I think overland in general needs a review with a buff in some areas and new enemy units to mix things up AND that the Main Story Bosses specifically should get a Veteran Option and in general get the Dungeons & Trial treatment because they are very disappointing as they are now to such a degree that it often kills all interest in the story. (If you need a financial incentive, give Vet mode sets and cosmetics that will make people want to get it)

As for my point in “dungeon prepping” - that’s a big reason as to why companions were made. To encourage and ease players to get into dungeons and group content. In general the goal of the design in overland is to lead players to end game.

Overland should be leading players to content that teaches them how to play- you don’t need “training dungeons” because that’s what the early level dungeons are for.

Problem is that
1) the group finder does not group players of similar levels - which often leads to rushing and burning.
2) The developers do not integrate dungeons or trials into the general questing experience. This leads to a separation

Sure it sounds nice for people who don’t want to do that content but it also can be discouraging to those just stepping their foot into the pool - hence companions.

Netheniel

At the end of the day, ZoS has the player metrics that we don't. They know how long people play, how many people abandon the game or stick around, who spends money on what and why, what players are most engaged in, etc. While the overworld content is braindead easy and boring IMO, as far as ZoS and the majority of the playerbase is concerned, it's successful.

When it comes to openworld content, IMO GW2 gets it mostly right. Dynamically scaled difficulty, relatively challenging content for both new and veteran players, varied enemies, world bosses, and most importantly, highly sociable meta events. While most of their meta events are zerg fests, as a PvE player it's nice to socialize with others while zerging or engaging in some fun openworld content. ESO openworld content is a very lonely and barren place. Quite a shame really when you consider the potential they have.

Sevn

Iccotak wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Regardless, proponents of this proposal need to first and foremost come up with a plan for Zos to monetize this content. It's dead in the water otherwise. If you don't have a significant amount of players that are willing to PAY for this, all arguments for it are moot.

They aren't going to spend time and resources maintaining new servers on content that will most certainly be drastically less populated for absolutely zero profits. Not happening.

A handful of players saying, "well I'd buy a companion if I had more challenging overland content" isn't enough when in reality they probably still wouldn't bother buying them and just use the empty zones to corner the markets on various saleable items.

Well that is not necessarily true

ZOS does implement quality of life features for the good of the game as is evident with the new tutorial which lets players choose their beginning destination which has been a major request for some time now. Or the Dungeon Finder and CP rework.

While I do think Overland could be harder and be a better learning curve and to encourage trying content like dungeons - I think that could be done through other means and not just a "veteran instance" and I do not think it has to be monetized to accomplish this.

We know that ZOS have talked about it and acknowledged that people have requested harder difficulties specifically for the Boss as well as overland.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwrb9x/

ZOS_MattF
Hello! We have no plans on implementing spears, but we have talked off and on about cool ways to do the one hand magic/one hand weapon thing. That's not on our roadmap anywhere, but we have been brainstorming.

There are so many cool things we could do! Seriously, we love these ideas too, but it all comes down to a matter of time and priorities.

EDIT: to respond to your edit. Yes, we've talked about this, in fact we tried to get that into the game as part of One Tamriel, but we just couldn't get it done. So we have ideas on how to have difficulty settings for overland content, but it's not currently planned. It's a great idea.

Adding a separate Vet mode and having to maintain it for free for a small amount of players isn't something I'd classify as "for the good of the game", whereas the 3 examples you present obviously benefit the majority if not the entirety of the population. Not even close to being on the same level.

If it's not going to improve the quality of life for a majority or isn't something players are willing to pay for it makes zero sense to spend time and resources on it when that can go elsewhere. That's just the bottom line for any business.

Plus it looks like they've already come up with a MONETIZED solution to encourage players to try harder content (companions) without infringing other playstyles on all players.

This idea that overland needs to be harder to train everyone for harder content is assuming everyone or even half is interested in running such content. They could just implement 2 or 3 training dungeons for that even if so and sell them for profit. Much cheaper, faster, easier.

Probably one free one while the rest would be sold in the crown store for those who truly are interested in improving their combat performance. Just like they sell training dummies in the store for those interested in improving their combat prowess *hint hint*.

I want to make sure my position is clear, I'm all for it, I have big plans to abuse it to my own benefits if implemented, but unless you guys can accept something like this will have to have a price tag it's just pissing in the wind again and again and again and again and again and again....

Overland should be leading players to content that teaches them how to play- you don’t need “training dungeons” because that’s what the early level dungeons are for.

Problem is that
1) the group finder does not group players of similar levels - which often leads to rushing and burning.
2) The developers do not integrate dungeons or trials into the general questing experience. This leads to a separation

Sure it sounds nice for people who don’t want to do that content but it also can be discouraging to those just stepping their foot into the pool - hence companions.

Oh I think I understood you, this is the part of your narrative that I have an issue with insisting overland should be leading every player to endgame combat other than what it is currently used for, background atmosphere.

Who has the right to tell all players they should be focusing on endgame? Whose endgame? Pvp? Trials? Flower picking? Though I'm pretty good at all aspects of the game my endgame has little to do with combat.

I have so many characters that are simply not built for combat but rather a theme and I rather enjoy not having to worry about tedious combat while sightseeing in Tameriel.

No, while I'm with you on buffing story bosses and other instanced content, the enemies in overland are currently just background scenery as intended and should remain so and players that want to learn how to "play" can do so with companions in the lower level dungeons or the training dungeons you dismissed.

Uvi_AUT

OMG YES, PLEASE!

Look at SW-ToR. Veterandifficulty is so much more fun.

robertthebard

Iccotak wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

lemonizzle wrote: »

Overland quests currently: "Brace yourself Champion, 'Gilgamesh, Consumer of Reality" is awaiting behind this door! He destroyed continents in one snap."
You enter, the boss has 400k hp tops, and dies in 3 second. You can't even finish one rotation. This is also the giga fight that was hyped for a whole chapter.

This just in: For some players, Gilgamesh sent them to a shrine. I call all the way back to my first post in this thread, where a player died to three scamps...

Hey, it's great that we're roflstomping all this stuff now. I mean, it's not like we can just equip blank gear, assign our CP, and faceroll everything based solely on that, right?

I think it is fair that people ask for a Hard Setting for the "Gilgamesh" of the Chapter, DLC, and Year.

While Overland is a starting point and it makes sense that it prioritizes accessibility - I think when it concerns the Main Story ZOS should prioritize engagement as that is being marketed to all players and is a big selling point.

Sure let new players do the story and beat an easy version of the Boss - but give end game players an engaging boss fight that pays off all the build up of the story. Especially the Boss fight that caps the end of the year.

Here's the thing I see though, how does that optional mode that they may not use train them for harder content. This is one of the "selling points" for this proposal, after all. It's one of those "looks good on paper" arguments that doesn't hold up when we consider that one caveat, if they're not using it, it's not training them for anything.

While I would hope that, if it were something that already existed, there would be some that did try it, I'm familiar with people that aren't "good" at the game because they don't have the motor skills to be "good" at it. I know players that are, at the end of the day, fairly decent at their classes, but that get flustered in a group setting, or overwhelmed by things that happen, and fall apart. They won't be in a queue for group content, because they can't handle a group setting, even where some of them could actually do well in that setting. These aren't hypotheticals, these are people that I have gamed with, some of them for years.

Cireous

From the latest German/English Rich and Fin interview, I'm not lovin' Fins take on not needing to even look at Overland from a balance perspective in terms of Champion Points since it's "meant to be where players level to 50 and that's it". God, that's so short sighted. Especially considering how many years we've been complaining about this on the forums. I've personally been playing this game since Beta, and I spend 90% of my time in Overland. The majority of the content created in this game IS the OVERLAND. For it to never be considered by the balance team is absolutely ridiculous.

Just give us Overland losers some way to debuff our characters, already, and be done with it.

And let us give that [snip] to our Companions as well.

[Edited to remove Profanity]

Sarannah

ZOS should not make a veteran overland mode. This would require a new servershard specifically for those players. Which means the population is spread out, less players to help with world bosses and other events, etc. Not to mention the massive advantage for farming materialnodes on the emptiest servershard, either regular or veteran.

Any different overland mode leaves too much room for abuse, and leaves new players out in the cold, as they won't encounter veteranplayers to help them. Even incidental.

The world would look more empty as well.

Besides, why would veteran players even want more difficult overland content?.... most of you guys run past everything without engaging it anyways. Same as in delves and public dungeons.

PS: The reason why a veteran overland mode requires a new servershard is because ZOS cannot raise monsters to veteran status after a veteran encounters them. As this would mean any regular player jumping in, would be completely outmatched versus that monster. Both damage wise, as dieing wise.

spartaxoxo

SshadowSscale wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Fata1moose wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

So I was running around Stonefalls this morning, trying to find a quest that I missed on the map, and saw a player die to three scamps. CP level on the player? 0. Nope.

Then they could keep the overland toggled on Normal that changes nothing.

It changes everything. I've seen this discussion before. Here, and in DDO. When they finally got it in DDO, and started complaining that it was too hard, I picked up a nice little year ban from the forums for suggesting exactly what you suggest here, "Play a lower difficulty".

[snip]

If difficulty was determined entirely on people complaining then we wouldn't have vet trials, dungeons or HMs either. But the great thing is we can have both a normal overland and a veteran overland just like group content has scalable difficulty. It just has to be done in such a way that a player is made aware through the UI if they switch to veteran.

Nope, it was exactly that. The reason for the report was probably closer to "but he hurt my feelings by telling me what I've been telling players that want Elite quests toned down so they can solo it. Nobody's supposed to use our argument against us", and a snowflake mod that agreed with them.

The truly great thing is we have content for everyone right now, to one extent or another, that doesn't require any additional time spent redoing stuff for a minority of the playerbase that may actually take advantage of it. All of this was discussed the last time this came up though. It costs money to do this, and there's no way to monetize it that won't be considered "P2W", or that may actually be P2W... So it's money out of pocket, for no return.

Funny how it is perfectly fine for casual solo players to ask for a solo option for dungeons trials ic cyrodil etc yet when people ask for an option to make overland more difficult aka a vet toggle it quickly gets shut down as not needed or eltist being greedy or whatever the reason..... just saying tho

Usually because the "solo" dungeons suggestion comes with the caveat of not having drops, exclusive achievements, etc to ensure it's truly optional. While vet stuff usually comes with folks wanting exclusive rewards.

I'm not sure if that's the case here, but that's certainly one of the reasons.

The other reason is that a newbie player not being able to help a vet player creates no negative impact. Whereas new players unable to find help from vet players does create a situation where new players are more likely to get frustrated and quit. So it's inherently not a 1 to 1 comparison.

AlienMagi

robertthebard wrote: »

So I was running around Stonefalls this morning, trying to find a quest that I missed on the map, and saw a player die to three scamps. CP level on the player? 0. Nope.

It would obviously be an option to enable the vet overland, not forced on the new players.

We really need overland vet for endgame, its just boring to 1-2 shot every enemy and kill delve & story bosses in under 5 seconds.

AlienMagi

Michae wrote: »

Once again I'm really stumped with that kind of request. What do you mean by higher difficulty? More hp on enemies? More damage on them so you die? Maybe some dungeon boss mechanics?

Come on, ESO combat is hardly engaging, it's not Dark Souls or Prince of Persia Warrior Within. All the dodges, blocks and interruptions are really clunky and boring really. The longer fights might be fine in a dungeon where you have some mates to help you out and also it's not that long, hour tops in some dlc ones. In overland solo setting longer fights just get tedious after a while, so I don't really get what you want from them. People level up to the max, get all the cp, some meta gear and then they complain they have it easy. No ***, it's an rpg game, part of rpg games is levelling up so everything's easier. But yeah, if you want higher difficulty right now and that really floats your boat for enjoying overland questing try removing your cp, go in unmached gear/ naked or even better, roll a new character and don't speed level it, don't use boosts or food buffs. Take it slow. I finished Cadwell's Gold recently, going through both Gold and Silver took me over a year because I like taking things slow and I have limited time to play. Anyway I've seen a lot of people who just sprint through the quests, not listening to dialogues, not reading books, simply not playing attention. Not saying that you necessarily play that way, but yeah, imho enjoying overland is not really about the challenge, but rather about stories, lore and exploration.

Sorry for rambling, it's hard to properly convey thoughts in written form sometimes.
TL;DR ESO combat is not Dark Souls. Slow down and try to enjoy the content for what it is.

How are you stumped at this request. Do you really enjoy one shotting everything while doing the main story and quests? I dont know about you but for me that completely takes away the immersion and fun of actually doing the quest.

If you dont like using end game gear and dont wanna use vet overland thats your choice but some of us like to get good and keep the challenge so why are you against having the option?

robertthebard

AlienMagi wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Once again I'm really stumped with that kind of request. What do you mean by higher difficulty? More hp on enemies? More damage on them so you die? Maybe some dungeon boss mechanics?

Come on, ESO combat is hardly engaging, it's not Dark Souls or Prince of Persia Warrior Within. All the dodges, blocks and interruptions are really clunky and boring really. The longer fights might be fine in a dungeon where you have some mates to help you out and also it's not that long, hour tops in some dlc ones. In overland solo setting longer fights just get tedious after a while, so I don't really get what you want from them. People level up to the max, get all the cp, some meta gear and then they complain they have it easy. No ***, it's an rpg game, part of rpg games is levelling up so everything's easier. But yeah, if you want higher difficulty right now and that really floats your boat for enjoying overland questing try removing your cp, go in unmached gear/ naked or even better, roll a new character and don't speed level it, don't use boosts or food buffs. Take it slow. I finished Cadwell's Gold recently, going through both Gold and Silver took me over a year because I like taking things slow and I have limited time to play. Anyway I've seen a lot of people who just sprint through the quests, not listening to dialogues, not reading books, simply not playing attention. Not saying that you necessarily play that way, but yeah, imho enjoying overland is not really about the challenge, but rather about stories, lore and exploration.

Sorry for rambling, it's hard to properly convey thoughts in written form sometimes.
TL;DR ESO combat is not Dark Souls. Slow down and try to enjoy the content for what it is.

How are you stumped at this request. Do you really enjoy one shotting everything while doing the main story and quests? I dont know about you but for me that completely takes away the immersion and fun of actually doing the quest.

If you dont like using end game gear and dont wanna use vet overland thats your choice but some of us like to get good and keep the challenge so why are you against having the option?

Because "having the option" means dev time spent on something that isn't going to be appealing to a majority of the population? Maybe because it's going to be a never ending cycle of either "it's not hard enough yet" or "but it's stupid hard and needs to be nerfed"? I've seen the latter. Talked about what happened when I did too. [snip] Lesson not learned, however, if they ever implement here, and the "but it's stupid hard" posts get going, I'll be right there telling them to play a lower difficulty.

"But Rob, what made it 'stupid hard'" you may be asking? They did exactly what the players asked for. Applied healing nerfs, damage nerfs, and added mobs that debuffed players. All of a sudden, that wasn't what they wanted... Which translates to even more dev time spent tweaking, so they didn't have to have canoes to navigate the forums.

[Edited to remove Discussing Disciplinary Actions]

AlienMagi

robertthebard wrote: »

AlienMagi wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Once again I'm really stumped with that kind of request. What do you mean by higher difficulty? More hp on enemies? More damage on them so you die? Maybe some dungeon boss mechanics?

Come on, ESO combat is hardly engaging, it's not Dark Souls or Prince of Persia Warrior Within. All the dodges, blocks and interruptions are really clunky and boring really. The longer fights might be fine in a dungeon where you have some mates to help you out and also it's not that long, hour tops in some dlc ones. In overland solo setting longer fights just get tedious after a while, so I don't really get what you want from them. People level up to the max, get all the cp, some meta gear and then they complain they have it easy. No ***, it's an rpg game, part of rpg games is levelling up so everything's easier. But yeah, if you want higher difficulty right now and that really floats your boat for enjoying overland questing try removing your cp, go in unmached gear/ naked or even better, roll a new character and don't speed level it, don't use boosts or food buffs. Take it slow. I finished Cadwell's Gold recently, going through both Gold and Silver took me over a year because I like taking things slow and I have limited time to play. Anyway I've seen a lot of people who just sprint through the quests, not listening to dialogues, not reading books, simply not playing attention. Not saying that you necessarily play that way, but yeah, imho enjoying overland is not really about the challenge, but rather about stories, lore and exploration.

Sorry for rambling, it's hard to properly convey thoughts in written form sometimes.
TL;DR ESO combat is not Dark Souls. Slow down and try to enjoy the content for what it is.

How are you stumped at this request. Do you really enjoy one shotting everything while doing the main story and quests? I dont know about you but for me that completely takes away the immersion and fun of actually doing the quest.

If you dont like using end game gear and dont wanna use vet overland thats your choice but some of us like to get good and keep the challenge so why are you against having the option?

Because "having the option" means dev time spent on something that isn't going to be appealing to a majority of the population? Maybe because it's going to be a never ending cycle of either "it's not hard enough yet" or "but it's stupid hard and needs to be nerfed"? I've seen the latter. Talked about what happened when I did too. [snip] Lesson not learned, however, if they ever implement here, and the "but it's stupid hard" posts get going, I'll be right there telling them to play a lower difficulty.

"But Rob, what made it 'stupid hard'" you may be asking? They did exactly what the players asked for. Applied healing nerfs, damage nerfs, and added mobs that debuffed players. All of a sudden, that wasn't what they wanted... Which translates to even more dev time spent tweaking, so they didn't have to have canoes to navigate the forums.

Sorry but you are wrong. The majority of players have already reached well over level 50 and for most of these people, overland difficulty is nonexistent, since they can spam 1 skill to kill a "super strong and immortal" boss with zero effort. It makes no sense and the content gets boring.


And why would anyone complain about it being "stupid hard", like, just disable vet mode and youre back to normal? Its up to the individual. Do you see people complaining about vet dungeons like this?

Of course improving the game takes developer time, thats just a non-point.

But from your point of view i can assume that you find veteran dungeons and trials were also a waste of developers time?

Magdalina

robertthebard wrote: »

So I was running around Stonefalls this morning, trying to find a quest that I missed on the map, and saw a player die to three scamps. CP level on the player? 0. Nope.

Well that's an odd argument. Just because it's possible to die in overland zones, doesn't mean they aren't too easy. I've seen people die to a single skeever in a dungeon (Wayrest 2, can't remember if vet or normal) before - they ran off away from the group and heroically fought that skeever with light attacks away from heals and taunts as everyone else proceeded to kill the boss 30m away from them. Does this mean there should be no harder dungeons because you can die to a skeever in vanilla ones?

The point of combat is to get better at it. Of course you might die figuring it out at first, but then you learn things, unlock skills, find out about food and potions, figure your own strats etc. Current ESO open world actually does many new players a great disservie - it convinces them that the level of skill where they can light attack a mob to death without dying is all you ever need in the game, without even hinting at wider possibilities. Then they come into dungeons and they get carried and get even more convinced they're ready for everything. Then they come into dlc, or better yet, vet dlc and there comes the rude awakening and the point that turns a lot of them away from that content forever - despite being able to do open world with their eyes closed, they cannot do harder content as they're wearing absolutely mismatched gear, have 30k health on dps, all the wrong skills, and, worst of all, don't have any idea what following mechanics means. But in reality, it's not that they cannot do this content - it's that they need a completely different approach to this content than anything they've seen in this game before, and that leaves them totally baffled.

Jeffrey530

lemonizzle wrote: »

Overland quests currently: "Brace yourself Champion, 'Gilgamesh, Consumer of Reality" is awaiting behind this door! He destroyed continents in one snap."
You enter, the boss has 400k hp tops, and dies in 3 second. You can't even finish one rotation. This is also the giga fight that was hyped for a whole chapter.

But the main character also defeated a daedric prince in his own domain, another three daedric princes in summerset, lets see if Gilgamesh is more powerful than that. I'd say we should be able to destroy anything in one snap, thats just how powerful we are lore wise.