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PSA: "Loot Spying" is NOT a Malicious Feature

  • Sanguinor2
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    Nairinhe wrote: »

    1. I officially agreed to ZOS tracking me, buy accepting EULA (I think, I must admit I didn't read that).
    2. ZOS or someone assigned by ZOS tracking my actions within ZOS own product in no way justifies someone else spying on me.
    3. ESO logs let you opt-in, AFAIK. Means, ZOS is capable of providing you a way to control what you share. And if you cannot opt out of sharing loot, that function shouldn't be in API at all.

    Again: absolutely no one among other players is entitled to information about my loot. Heck, when I'm playing with my BF I can literally look at his screen and see what he got. Instead, I ask if he has something to share. I wonder, why?


    Logs dont let you opt in/opt out, you can appear as anonymus but all information is still available and it is very easy to see which anonymus is which, so no Zos doesnt give you control of what you share with logs (well besides your character name but that one is kinda useless since everyone sees it anyway).

    I wonder about that too tbh.

    But w/e we can agree to disagree on this topic.

    For OP: Easiest workaround I found without triggering anyone is to just ask if someone got that specific item in group chat after you see that it drops.
    Politeness is respecting others.
    Courage is doing what is fair.
    Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
    Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
    Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
    Honor is keeping ones word.
  • Kaartinen
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    I really wouldn't mind, but it is up to others if they want to give you their items.

    Simply asking "If anyone has X item, I am looking for it" is the best approach.
  • VoidCommander
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    If someone asked for that weapon in chat and I had already collected it then I would have no problem sharing it

    However if someone is using and an addon like that and simply makes the request out of the blue then I would feel disrespected, would immediately put that player on the ignore list and then drop out of the group. I wouldn’t engage in conversation or communication in any way shape or form

    I avoid social media and I go to great efforts to protect my data, it never fails to amaze me how casual some people can be with their personal information given how much it’s worth. Or in my case a little.

    One thing you have to remember is that using an addon like this will inevitably feel invasive to a large percentage of the player base, unless you are extremely gentle and diplomatic the likelihood is they will get angry and lash out. If you insist on using it then you must bear that in mind that it is going to come across as provocative

    Same goes to you. I hope I never have to experience a player like you in a dungeon. It is a loot log, not your browser history. This is the equivalent of adding someone to your ignore list because they play a high elf and you just don't trust them. It is a harmless addon, not the devil incarnate.
  • redspecter23
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    If someone asked for that weapon in chat and I had already collected it then I would have no problem sharing it

    However if someone is using and an addon like that and simply makes the request out of the blue then I would feel disrespected, would immediately put that player on the ignore list and then drop out of the group. I wouldn’t engage in conversation or communication in any way shape or form

    It's an interesting perspective and I respect your choice. I feel the complete opposite. I can't track all the items that people ask for in a group. 4 or more players at the start of a trial all asking for various things. I will not remember that and I won't be taking notes. However, I want others to see the loot I'm pulling so they can target their request. I don't want to hear "LF all relequin" from 3 people. I do want someone to whisper me at the end and ask for the relequin bracers that I pulled. For me, that's faster and more efficient. I will often link the weapons or divines armor pieces I pull at the end of a run for those not using a loot addon, but in my ideal situation, I'd love if everyone used it and nobody had to specifically link anything.

    It's good to see both perspectives.

    I will continue to politely whisper and request items from people I run with. If they choose to see that in a negative way, that is their choice, even if it's not my intention. I only want to ask the question directly. If they answer yes or no, either way is fine by me.

  • code65536
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    I appreciate when people run these addons, saves me the trouble of linking gear I don’t need.

    @WrathOfInnos You really should try the /linktrade feature in Loot Log. :tongue:
    Nightfighters
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  • WrathOfInnos
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    code65536 wrote: »
    I appreciate when people run these addons, saves me the trouble of linking gear I don’t need.

    @WrathOfInnos You really should try the /linktrade feature in Loot Log. :tongue:
    @code65536 you're right. I need to install Loot Log again, I deleted all but 5 addons when the crashing issues were at their worst, and game stability hasn't improved enough for me to bring back most of them and risk any more strain on the system. I think that one is probably safe though :D
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on January 24, 2021 2:38AM
  • hexnotic
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    hexnotic wrote: »
    oof.. this is why gear farming gives me anxiety. i have to worry about offending people for asking privately in a polite manner if they need the piece that i’m looking for. sometimes rng is cruel and we’ve been through a lot of salt in the group finder to see that one desirable piece drop.

    if you need the set piece, say: sorry i need the piece, good luck on future runs tho!

    if you don’t need the piece, just be a bro and say: yes you can have the drop fam

    i give up desirable pieces to pugs if i don’t need them for any of my builds. even if i have to carry in the dungeon, i give up the piece they are asking for in hopes that the set piece will help them improve their skill level. just be a helpful human being, if you don’t need it please be understanding that the person could have possibly been farming for hours to get the last piece to complete their build.

    if you help gear a pug out, they may help you in the future. one of the things that i love about this genre is that players progress by helping each other!

    sometimes pugging a gear farm is necessary, and if you feel like someone is breaching your privacy by using a convenience tool that is allowed in the game then consider moving to console. i’m sorry but someone seeing your drops in a game is not the same as someone digging through your physical back pack with your wallet and keys inside. it’s simply not the same, and a terrible comparison to make.

    still, at the end of the day it’s your drop. if you want to keep it, and someone is desperately asking for it because they have been trying to get the drop for hours please remember the player spying on your loot is a human being just like you.

    Oh, I'm all too aware that we're both humans who want the same gear drop.

    Why do you think I'm worried about whether the other player is going to argue or turn toxic when I tell them "No"? "Human" encompasses a wide range of good and bad behaviors.

    We're all human. I can't read your mind to see your good intentions and willingness to accept "no" for an answer. You can't read my mind to see that I'm judging whether keeping the gear is worth the risk of starting a conversation that might be gracious acceptance or if it'll turn into a player whose been farming for hours unleashing that pent up frustration on me for refusing them.


    And no, I'm won't be giving up my gaming PC, PC ESO account, and buying a console instead. That was not a very gracious suggestion on your part in a post where you ask us to consider addon users with empathy. I shall just have to continue dealing with the jerks and frustrated players who lash out when told "No" as they come.

    My goal isn't to convince you to stop using a loot spy addon - if you use one and you directly contact players to ask for gear, obviously you've decided that your convenience is more important than any of the reasons players here gave you why they don't like to be directly contacted.

    My hope is that when you do meet someone who tells you "No, and I don't like Loot Spy addons" maybe you'll:
    A) Be a little more understanding of some of the reasons why.
    B.) Have the good sense to graciously accept their "No" instead of confirming their impression that Loot Spy Addon Users get frustrated when they aren't given what they want.

    my apologies, i was a bit annoyed when writing my post last night. both perspectives are important, but yeah if someone doesn’t respect your decline to them asking for the loot then they are 100% in the wrong. i guess i’m just tired of people blaming the add on when in reality plenty of people use loot log respectfully, and once again toxic players ruins it for everyone.

    personally for me, i don’t worry about declining someone their loot or their following reaction. that’s easy to ignore! what isn’t easy to ignore is my need for said loot. :lol:

    my suggestion to consider having a console account did come off as rude, once again my apologies. it is expensive to switch, and that sucks. but it’s the only place where loot log doesn’t exist, and that was my point, i just delivered that in not the best way.

    the perspective that i so hastily decided to share on this thread was albeit a frustrated one, but one that also knows how to be respectful to other players when going for a gear farm.
    Edited by hexnotic on January 24, 2021 4:19PM
    I stream The Elder Scrolls Online & Skyrim tues-fri @ 1pm est on Twitch TV! Come chill. twitch.tv/hexnotic
  • VaranisArano
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    hexnotic wrote: »
    hexnotic wrote: »
    oof.. this is why gear farming gives me anxiety. i have to worry about offending people for asking privately in a polite manner if they need the piece that i’m looking for. sometimes rng is cruel and we’ve been through a lot of salt in the group finder to see that one desirable piece drop.

    if you need the set piece, say: sorry i need the piece, good luck on future runs tho!

    if you don’t need the piece, just be a bro and say: yes you can have the drop fam

    i give up desirable pieces to pugs if i don’t need them for any of my builds. even if i have to carry in the dungeon, i give up the piece they are asking for in hopes that the set piece will help them improve their skill level. just be a helpful human being, if you don’t need it please be understanding that the person could have possibly been farming for hours to get the last piece to complete their build.

    if you help gear a pug out, they may help you in the future. one of the things that i love about this genre is that players progress by helping each other!

    sometimes pugging a gear farm is necessary, and if you feel like someone is breaching your privacy by using a convenience tool that is allowed in the game then consider moving to console. i’m sorry but someone seeing your drops in a game is not the same as someone digging through your physical back pack with your wallet and keys inside. it’s simply not the same, and a terrible comparison to make.

    still, at the end of the day it’s your drop. if you want to keep it, and someone is desperately asking for it because they have been trying to get the drop for hours please remember the player spying on your loot is a human being just like you.

    Oh, I'm all too aware that we're both humans who want the same gear drop.

    Why do you think I'm worried about whether the other player is going to argue or turn toxic when I tell them "No"? "Human" encompasses a wide range of good and bad behaviors.

    We're all human. I can't read your mind to see your good intentions and willingness to accept "no" for an answer. You can't read my mind to see that I'm judging whether keeping the gear is worth the risk of starting a conversation that might be gracious acceptance or if it'll turn into a player whose been farming for hours unleashing that pent up frustration on me for refusing them.


    And no, I'm won't be giving up my gaming PC, PC ESO account, and buying a console instead. That was not a very gracious suggestion on your part in a post where you ask us to consider addon users with empathy. I shall just have to continue dealing with the jerks and frustrated players who lash out when told "No" as they come.

    My goal isn't to convince you to stop using a loot spy addon - if you use one and you directly contact players to ask for gear, obviously you've decided that your convenience is more important than any of the reasons players here gave you why they don't like to be directly contacted.

    My hope is that when you do meet someone who tells you "No, and I don't like Loot Spy addons" maybe you'll:
    A) Be a little more understanding of some of the reasons why.
    B.) Have the good sense to graciously accept their "No" instead of confirming their impression that Loot Spy Addon Users get frustrated when they aren't given what they want.

    my apologies, i was a bit annoyed when writing my post last night. both perspectives are important, but yeah if someone doesn’t respect your decline to them asking for the loot then they are 100% in the wrong. i guess i’m just tired of people blaming the add on when in reality plenty of people use loot log respectfully, and once again toxic players ruins it for everyone.

    personally for me, i don’t worry about declining someone their loot or their following reaction. that’s easy to ignore! what isn’t easy to ignore is my need for said loot. :lol:

    my suggestion to consider having a console account did come off as rude, once again my apologies. it is expensive to switch, and that sucks. but it’s the only place where loot log doesn’t exist, and that was my point, i just delivered that in not the best way.

    the perspective that i so hastily decided to share on this thread was albeit a frustrated one, but one that also knows how to be respectful to other players when going for a gear farm.

    Thanks! And yeah, like so many tools, its not the tool that's inherently bad. Its toxic players ruining it for everyone who uses it responsibly.
  • hexnotic
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    moral of the story is that you can’t tell another player that they should not use a specific add on, but it is understandable that people feel like the add on causes toxicity from certain players to take place. chances are those same players would be toxic about other things in game, and the same can be said about using dps sharing add ons, etc.
    Edited by hexnotic on January 24, 2021 5:41PM
    I stream The Elder Scrolls Online & Skyrim tues-fri @ 1pm est on Twitch TV! Come chill. twitch.tv/hexnotic
  • Hanokihs
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    Hanokihs wrote: »
    IDK, I personally hate the thought of someone knowing what I have and asking me for it. It may seem irrational, but it feels the same as if they started digging through my backpack to see if I have a pen, then going "Oh you don't mind if I take this, do you?" Actually I do mind, ya rude skeever; get out of my stuff. You probably would've had better luck about it if you'd just asked generally. Then it wouldn't feel like you're just rudely pressuring someone to give you something you know they have.

    Alternatively, maybe look for people who are just openly willing to help you grind; join and/or ask some guild members. That way you don't have to rely on randos who may not wanna share, and you always have four shots at whatever you need.

    Ok. @hanokihs, I am asking YOU for help farming out a 2 handed sword. The dungeon is long, difficult, and annoying as all hell. With nothing to gain for yourself, please help me farm for this weapon for hours and hours out of your own good heart, because people being willing to trade the gear they do not intend to use is too great a burden.

    Do you see where the whole "find some people to farm with you" argument kind of falls flat? I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend my time farming for someone else's gear, not when I can get a full team of randos who are just as capable of getting drops.

    I mean... Yeah, sure, I would. If you were in my guild asking for runners to help you grind, and I knew the mechanics of the dungeon (so as not to slow you down by dying and being in the way), I would have no problem. That's a third of what guilds in this game do, I'm not sure why you're so incredulous about the idea that other players might help you by... IDK, playing the game.
    "I haven't really played much yet, but lemme tell you all about how the game should include X and be a lot more like Y!" - Half the posters on this forum.
    "I've been here for years, and lemme tell you all about how they should never change or evolve Z, because then the game would be ruined forever." - The other half of posters on this forum.
  • FantasticFreddie
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    Ha, I used to play with a guy who would loose his mind if other people dared to ask him for drops and spitefully refuse to give them away. I always took issue with that behavior, we argued a lot about loot snoop, I always use it.
    A couple of times I pretended I needed the drop in question and passed it on to the person who needed it.
    Then in a trial he asked me via whisper if I could see if anyone had gotten a specific drop.
    I refused to tell him, told him to ask. (It had dropped)
    We don't play together anymore.
  • Kwoung
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    IMHO, unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot and there is nothing wrong with asking for something that randomly went to another players bag instead of yours, especially if it is a specific item you have been working hard to get. That is why those items are marked tradeable for 2 hours.

    People having issues with this are basically just stingy, don't want to share, and use the whole "spying" argument to cover up the fact they are being jerks.

    I will also bet that 99% of those people don't have issues with using Lazy Writ Crafter or any of the hundred other addons that make the game more playable that the devs didn't include, but made available for use through an API.
    Edited by Kwoung on February 19, 2021 12:39AM
  • Kwoung
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    Kwoung wrote: »
    IMHO, unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot and there is nothing wrong with asking for something that randomly went to another players bag instead of yours, especially if it is a specific item you have been working hard to get. That is why those items are marked tradeable for 2 hours.

    People having issues with this are basically just stingy, don't want to share, and use the whole "spying" argument to cover up the fact they are being jerks.

    I will also bet that 99% of those people don't have issues with using Lazy Writ Crafter or any of the hundred other addons that make the game more playable that the devs didn't include, but made available for use through an API.

    Your definition of "group loot" is really strange due to addon usage. You say: "unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot."

    By ESO's design, all loot is individual. We don't see each other's loot. My rewards for group content are individual rewards for performing my role in the group, which I can keep or share with the other members of the group as I see fit. Guild runs may be different as per guild rules and premade groups can set their own expectations for loot sharing, but if we're in a random group, there's no expectation that this is "group loot."

    If ZOS wanted to make it all "group loot," they'd have put loot in a grab bag or made a "group loot log" part of the base game. They did not. They merely allowed it in the API for PC players.

    Therefore, just because you have a "group loot log" due to an addon does not actually mean that you are entitled to treat your groupmates' individual loot rewards as your personal grab bag. ZOS' API allows you to look, but if you want something, you have to ask and it is up to the other player to give it away or keep it as they see fit. (Again, if your group agrees to loot sharing, awesome! But if a random DD that the group could've replaced quickly with Groupfinder thinks they're entitled to take my loot merely because I didn't solo the dungeon on my tank, well, that's ridiculous. They may ask politely and I will consider it.)

    You may ask!
    Ask politely!
    Accept "No" answers graciously!

    Well, that's what you should do if you want players to have a positive experience with a loot log addon user.


    I've got to be honest. I read phrases like:
    "Unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot"
    "something that randomly went to another players bag instead of yours"
    "a specific item you have been working hard to get"
    "basically just stingy"
    "don't want to share"

    And I think: "That's a litany of entitled, badgering, and insulting phrases designed to pressure me into giving up my gear reward...that you only know about because of your loot log addon."

    Let's just say that if we had that conversation in a random dungeon after you asked me for my gear and I said "No," you would NOT get my gear and I'd walk away with another negative impression that loot log addon users don't accept "No" graciously. To me, that seems counterproductive, both with getting you the gear and to your larger point.

    If you want players to have a better impression of loot log addon users...
    By all means, Ask!
    Ask politely!
    Always, always accept "No" graciously!

    (The "But you use other addons" argument is a bit of a sideshow here. I've never had a negative experience with a Lazy Writ Crafter, but maybe that's just me. Most addons that don't give info about other players don't often seem to give toxic players an excuse to be toxic. Addons that do give info about other players, like Combat Metrics, are often super useful but do have a certain minority who use it to be toxic to others. Loot Log addons are no different. Useful in the main, but the users don't always behave well.)

    I actually agree with most of what you said here. People should always ask nicely and take no for an answer if the person who had it drop decides they need it more. By group loot, I meant you were part of a team that the loot dropped for.

    And ZOS did build the feature into the game that shows what loot others had, as did they put in a feature to show what others DPS, healing, sets they are wearing, if it is green/gold, what skills are on their bar and which they used during the fight. All public info accessed through their API and logs that ZOS provides.

    Thinking that info is not publicly available to other members of your group and getting upset that it is, doesn't really make sense to me. Which is why I mentioned the widely used Lazy Writ Crafter, because it uses the exact same systems provided by ZOS as the addons some people have issues with do.

    Quite honestly, I would think more people would be upset about their group mates being able to see their Gear/DPS/Rotation/Etc.. rather than what loot dropped, but apparently many players don't even know that's a thing.
  • VaranisArano
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    Kwoung wrote: »
    Kwoung wrote: »
    IMHO, unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot and there is nothing wrong with asking for something that randomly went to another players bag instead of yours, especially if it is a specific item you have been working hard to get. That is why those items are marked tradeable for 2 hours.

    People having issues with this are basically just stingy, don't want to share, and use the whole "spying" argument to cover up the fact they are being jerks.

    I will also bet that 99% of those people don't have issues with using Lazy Writ Crafter or any of the hundred other addons that make the game more playable that the devs didn't include, but made available for use through an API.

    Your definition of "group loot" is really strange due to addon usage. You say: "unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot."

    By ESO's design, all loot is individual. We don't see each other's loot. My rewards for group content are individual rewards for performing my role in the group, which I can keep or share with the other members of the group as I see fit. Guild runs may be different as per guild rules and premade groups can set their own expectations for loot sharing, but if we're in a random group, there's no expectation that this is "group loot."

    If ZOS wanted to make it all "group loot," they'd have put loot in a grab bag or made a "group loot log" part of the base game. They did not. They merely allowed it in the API for PC players.

    Therefore, just because you have a "group loot log" due to an addon does not actually mean that you are entitled to treat your groupmates' individual loot rewards as your personal grab bag. ZOS' API allows you to look, but if you want something, you have to ask and it is up to the other player to give it away or keep it as they see fit. (Again, if your group agrees to loot sharing, awesome! But if a random DD that the group could've replaced quickly with Groupfinder thinks they're entitled to take my loot merely because I didn't solo the dungeon on my tank, well, that's ridiculous. They may ask politely and I will consider it.)

    You may ask!
    Ask politely!
    Accept "No" answers graciously!

    Well, that's what you should do if you want players to have a positive experience with a loot log addon user.


    I've got to be honest. I read phrases like:
    "Unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot"
    "something that randomly went to another players bag instead of yours"
    "a specific item you have been working hard to get"
    "basically just stingy"
    "don't want to share"

    And I think: "That's a litany of entitled, badgering, and insulting phrases designed to pressure me into giving up my gear reward...that you only know about because of your loot log addon."

    Let's just say that if we had that conversation in a random dungeon after you asked me for my gear and I said "No," you would NOT get my gear and I'd walk away with another negative impression that loot log addon users don't accept "No" graciously. To me, that seems counterproductive, both with getting you the gear and to your larger point.

    If you want players to have a better impression of loot log addon users...
    By all means, Ask!
    Ask politely!
    Always, always accept "No" graciously!

    (The "But you use other addons" argument is a bit of a sideshow here. I've never had a negative experience with a Lazy Writ Crafter, but maybe that's just me. Most addons that don't give info about other players don't often seem to give toxic players an excuse to be toxic. Addons that do give info about other players, like Combat Metrics, are often super useful but do have a certain minority who use it to be toxic to others. Loot Log addons are no different. Useful in the main, but the users don't always behave well.)

    I actually agree with most of what you said here. People should always ask nicely and take no for an answer if the person who had it drop decides they need it more. By group loot, I meant you were part of a team that the loot dropped for.

    And ZOS did build the feature into the game that shows what loot others had, as did they put in a feature to show what others DPS, healing, sets they are wearing, if it is green/gold, what skills are on their bar and which they used during the fight. All public info accessed through their API and logs that ZOS provides.

    Thinking that info is not publicly available to other members of your group and getting upset that it is, doesn't really make sense to me. Which is why I mentioned the widely used Lazy Writ Crafter, because it uses the exact same systems provided by ZOS as the addons some people have issues with do.

    Quite honestly, I would think more people would be upset about their group mates being able to see their Gear/DPS/Rotation/Etc.. rather than what loot dropped, but apparently many players don't even know that's a thing.

    Thanks for clarifying what you mean by "group loot"!

    There's a difference between "ZOS left this portion of the API accessible" (they did) vs "ZOS designed ESO so players could view each other's loot" (they did not).

    In fact, that's the very definition of the difference between addons and the vanilla game. We wouldn't say that the Devs designed Crafting Writs to be done in a handful of clicks with Lazy Writ Crafter, nonetheless they allow PC players to do so.


    I think you are referring to ESO's Encounter Log? One of the the things ZOS very specifically did with that was to make it not "real time" info. In fact, earlier they'd removed an addon that did give "real time" info on individual players' DPS because they worried about players using it to judge and kick teammates. (Combat Metrics is real time, but limited info and indentifiability.)

    Between the delay and the requirement that players opt-in to be identified with their log info, Encounter Logs is pretty helpful! ZoS did a lot to remove the aspects that create the most issues from toxic users.

    Notably, the real time indentifiability of players with their loot is the major issue that's misused by toxic players here. If ZOS altered their API similarly to Encounter Logs or Combat Metrics so loot was listed without the individual player or required an opt-in to identify the player, we'd get a good compromise: players could see and ask for loot they are interested in while the player with the loot can remain anonymous if they don't want to give up their loot.
  • VoidCommander
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    Kwoung wrote: »
    Kwoung wrote: »
    IMHO, unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot and there is nothing wrong with asking for something that randomly went to another players bag instead of yours, especially if it is a specific item you have been working hard to get. That is why those items are marked tradeable for 2 hours.

    People having issues with this are basically just stingy, don't want to share, and use the whole "spying" argument to cover up the fact they are being jerks.

    I will also bet that 99% of those people don't have issues with using Lazy Writ Crafter or any of the hundred other addons that make the game more playable that the devs didn't include, but made available for use through an API.

    Your definition of "group loot" is really strange due to addon usage. You say: "unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot."

    By ESO's design, all loot is individual. We don't see each other's loot. My rewards for group content are individual rewards for performing my role in the group, which I can keep or share with the other members of the group as I see fit. Guild runs may be different as per guild rules and premade groups can set their own expectations for loot sharing, but if we're in a random group, there's no expectation that this is "group loot."

    If ZOS wanted to make it all "group loot," they'd have put loot in a grab bag or made a "group loot log" part of the base game. They did not. They merely allowed it in the API for PC players.

    Therefore, just because you have a "group loot log" due to an addon does not actually mean that you are entitled to treat your groupmates' individual loot rewards as your personal grab bag. ZOS' API allows you to look, but if you want something, you have to ask and it is up to the other player to give it away or keep it as they see fit. (Again, if your group agrees to loot sharing, awesome! But if a random DD that the group could've replaced quickly with Groupfinder thinks they're entitled to take my loot merely because I didn't solo the dungeon on my tank, well, that's ridiculous. They may ask politely and I will consider it.)

    You may ask!
    Ask politely!
    Accept "No" answers graciously!

    Well, that's what you should do if you want players to have a positive experience with a loot log addon user.


    I've got to be honest. I read phrases like:
    "Unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot"
    "something that randomly went to another players bag instead of yours"
    "a specific item you have been working hard to get"
    "basically just stingy"
    "don't want to share"

    And I think: "That's a litany of entitled, badgering, and insulting phrases designed to pressure me into giving up my gear reward...that you only know about because of your loot log addon."

    Let's just say that if we had that conversation in a random dungeon after you asked me for my gear and I said "No," you would NOT get my gear and I'd walk away with another negative impression that loot log addon users don't accept "No" graciously. To me, that seems counterproductive, both with getting you the gear and to your larger point.

    If you want players to have a better impression of loot log addon users...
    By all means, Ask!
    Ask politely!
    Always, always accept "No" graciously!

    (The "But you use other addons" argument is a bit of a sideshow here. I've never had a negative experience with a Lazy Writ Crafter, but maybe that's just me. Most addons that don't give info about other players don't often seem to give toxic players an excuse to be toxic. Addons that do give info about other players, like Combat Metrics, are often super useful but do have a certain minority who use it to be toxic to others. Loot Log addons are no different. Useful in the main, but the users don't always behave well.)

    I actually agree with most of what you said here. People should always ask nicely and take no for an answer if the person who had it drop decides they need it more. By group loot, I meant you were part of a team that the loot dropped for.

    And ZOS did build the feature into the game that shows what loot others had, as did they put in a feature to show what others DPS, healing, sets they are wearing, if it is green/gold, what skills are on their bar and which they used during the fight. All public info accessed through their API and logs that ZOS provides.

    Thinking that info is not publicly available to other members of your group and getting upset that it is, doesn't really make sense to me. Which is why I mentioned the widely used Lazy Writ Crafter, because it uses the exact same systems provided by ZOS as the addons some people have issues with do.

    Quite honestly, I would think more people would be upset about their group mates being able to see their Gear/DPS/Rotation/Etc.. rather than what loot dropped, but apparently many players don't even know that's a thing.

    Thanks for clarifying what you mean by "group loot"!

    There's a difference between "ZOS left this portion of the API accessible" (they did) vs "ZOS designed ESO so players could view each other's loot" (they did not).

    In fact, that's the very definition of the difference between addons and the vanilla game. We wouldn't say that the Devs designed Crafting Writs to be done in a handful of clicks with Lazy Writ Crafter, nonetheless they allow PC players to do so.


    I think you are referring to ESO's Encounter Log? One of the the things ZOS very specifically did with that was to make it not "real time" info. In fact, earlier they'd removed an addon that did give "real time" info on individual players' DPS because they worried about players using it to judge and kick teammates. (Combat Metrics is real time, but limited info and indentifiability.)

    Between the delay and the requirement that players opt-in to be identified with their log info, Encounter Logs is pretty helpful! ZoS did a lot to remove the aspects that create the most issues from toxic users.

    Notably, the real time indentifiability of players with their loot is the major issue that's misused by toxic players here. If ZOS altered their API similarly to Encounter Logs or Combat Metrics so loot was listed without the individual player or required an opt-in to identify the player, we'd get a good compromise: players could see and ask for loot they are interested in while the player with the loot can remain anonymous if they don't want to give up their loot.

    Problem with making it completely unknown who gets what drop, is that this would make it SO much more difficult for the vast majority of players who Don’t have an issue with loot log. If we are using my own experience as a metric, I have been asking for gear with loot log for over 3 years, and the example I stated above was the first and only time someone has had a problem with it. Forcing all the farmers in trials and dungeons to individually call out each item they need for the set they are farming to appease the <10% (conservative estimate) that have a problem with the addon.
  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    Kwoung wrote: »
    Kwoung wrote: »
    IMHO, unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot and there is nothing wrong with asking for something that randomly went to another players bag instead of yours, especially if it is a specific item you have been working hard to get. That is why those items are marked tradeable for 2 hours.

    People having issues with this are basically just stingy, don't want to share, and use the whole "spying" argument to cover up the fact they are being jerks.

    I will also bet that 99% of those people don't have issues with using Lazy Writ Crafter or any of the hundred other addons that make the game more playable that the devs didn't include, but made available for use through an API.

    Your definition of "group loot" is really strange due to addon usage. You say: "unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot."

    By ESO's design, all loot is individual. We don't see each other's loot. My rewards for group content are individual rewards for performing my role in the group, which I can keep or share with the other members of the group as I see fit. Guild runs may be different as per guild rules and premade groups can set their own expectations for loot sharing, but if we're in a random group, there's no expectation that this is "group loot."

    If ZOS wanted to make it all "group loot," they'd have put loot in a grab bag or made a "group loot log" part of the base game. They did not. They merely allowed it in the API for PC players.

    Therefore, just because you have a "group loot log" due to an addon does not actually mean that you are entitled to treat your groupmates' individual loot rewards as your personal grab bag. ZOS' API allows you to look, but if you want something, you have to ask and it is up to the other player to give it away or keep it as they see fit. (Again, if your group agrees to loot sharing, awesome! But if a random DD that the group could've replaced quickly with Groupfinder thinks they're entitled to take my loot merely because I didn't solo the dungeon on my tank, well, that's ridiculous. They may ask politely and I will consider it.)

    You may ask!
    Ask politely!
    Accept "No" answers graciously!

    Well, that's what you should do if you want players to have a positive experience with a loot log addon user.


    I've got to be honest. I read phrases like:
    "Unless you soloed that dungeon, it is group loot"
    "something that randomly went to another players bag instead of yours"
    "a specific item you have been working hard to get"
    "basically just stingy"
    "don't want to share"

    And I think: "That's a litany of entitled, badgering, and insulting phrases designed to pressure me into giving up my gear reward...that you only know about because of your loot log addon."

    Let's just say that if we had that conversation in a random dungeon after you asked me for my gear and I said "No," you would NOT get my gear and I'd walk away with another negative impression that loot log addon users don't accept "No" graciously. To me, that seems counterproductive, both with getting you the gear and to your larger point.

    If you want players to have a better impression of loot log addon users...
    By all means, Ask!
    Ask politely!
    Always, always accept "No" graciously!

    (The "But you use other addons" argument is a bit of a sideshow here. I've never had a negative experience with a Lazy Writ Crafter, but maybe that's just me. Most addons that don't give info about other players don't often seem to give toxic players an excuse to be toxic. Addons that do give info about other players, like Combat Metrics, are often super useful but do have a certain minority who use it to be toxic to others. Loot Log addons are no different. Useful in the main, but the users don't always behave well.)

    I actually agree with most of what you said here. People should always ask nicely and take no for an answer if the person who had it drop decides they need it more. By group loot, I meant you were part of a team that the loot dropped for.

    And ZOS did build the feature into the game that shows what loot others had, as did they put in a feature to show what others DPS, healing, sets they are wearing, if it is green/gold, what skills are on their bar and which they used during the fight. All public info accessed through their API and logs that ZOS provides.

    Thinking that info is not publicly available to other members of your group and getting upset that it is, doesn't really make sense to me. Which is why I mentioned the widely used Lazy Writ Crafter, because it uses the exact same systems provided by ZOS as the addons some people have issues with do.

    Quite honestly, I would think more people would be upset about their group mates being able to see their Gear/DPS/Rotation/Etc.. rather than what loot dropped, but apparently many players don't even know that's a thing.

    Thanks for clarifying what you mean by "group loot"!

    There's a difference between "ZOS left this portion of the API accessible" (they did) vs "ZOS designed ESO so players could view each other's loot" (they did not).

    In fact, that's the very definition of the difference between addons and the vanilla game. We wouldn't say that the Devs designed Crafting Writs to be done in a handful of clicks with Lazy Writ Crafter, nonetheless they allow PC players to do so.


    I think you are referring to ESO's Encounter Log? One of the the things ZOS very specifically did with that was to make it not "real time" info. In fact, earlier they'd removed an addon that did give "real time" info on individual players' DPS because they worried about players using it to judge and kick teammates. (Combat Metrics is real time, but limited info and indentifiability.)

    Between the delay and the requirement that players opt-in to be identified with their log info, Encounter Logs is pretty helpful! ZoS did a lot to remove the aspects that create the most issues from toxic users.

    Notably, the real time indentifiability of players with their loot is the major issue that's misused by toxic players here. If ZOS altered their API similarly to Encounter Logs or Combat Metrics so loot was listed without the individual player or required an opt-in to identify the player, we'd get a good compromise: players could see and ask for loot they are interested in while the player with the loot can remain anonymous if they don't want to give up their loot.

    Problem with making it completely unknown who gets what drop, is that this would make it SO much more difficult for the vast majority of players who Don’t have an issue with loot log. If we are using my own experience as a metric, I have been asking for gear with loot log for over 3 years, and the example I stated above was the first and only time someone has had a problem with it. Forcing all the farmers in trials and dungeons to individually call out each item they need for the set they are farming to appease the <10% (conservative estimate) that have a problem with the addon.

    Or just do what we do on console and link the gear you don't need in chat at the end of the run. It's really simple.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Has anyone else had this experience? I’ve seen it multiple times.

    Go into a dungeon, state what item you’re looking for, others state what whey need. There’s no overlap in loot desired, and you all say things like “it’s yours if I find it”. Then at the end someone gets the item you’ve been looking for, doesn’t link it it chat, drops group and won’t reply to whispers.

    I’m guessing they just lie at the beginning to try to scam you into sharing what they need with no intention of helping you. Those are the players that fear group loot addons, the dishonest ones with something to hide. Anyone else could politely say at the beginning, “I’m also looking for that item, and I’ll need to keep it if I get one”.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on February 19, 2021 8:23PM
  • VoidCommander
    VoidCommander
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    @jaws343 people on PC don’t have a convenient voice chat to ask people to link gear. While linking unneeded gear would be a nice practice, even on console I guarantee that not everyone does it. With the loot log, you can see all the loot, and maximize your chances for finding what you need.
  • VoidCommander
    VoidCommander
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    Has anyone else had this experience? I’ve seen it multiple times.

    Go into a dungeon, state what item you’re looking for, others state what whey need. There’s no overlap in loot desired, and you all say things like “it’s yours if I find it”. Then at the end someone gets the item you’ve been looking for, doesn’t link it it chat, drops group and won’t reply to whispers.

    I’m guessing they just lie at the beginning to try to scam you into sharing what they need with no intention of helping you. Those are the players that fear group loot addons, the dishonest ones with something to hide. Anyone else could politely say at the beginning, “I’m also looking for that item, and I’ll need to keep it if I get one”.

    Yes I have experienced this before. I suspect the inability to whisper them might be because they are set to offline for other reasons. If they were deliberately farming the same gear as you, they would be just as disadvantaged farming for it.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Has anyone else had this experience? I’ve seen it multiple times.

    Go into a dungeon, state what item you’re looking for, others state what whey need. There’s no overlap in loot desired, and you all say things like “it’s yours if I find it”. Then at the end someone gets the item you’ve been looking for, doesn’t link it it chat, drops group and won’t reply to whispers.

    I’m guessing they just lie at the beginning to try to scam you into sharing what they need with no intention of helping you. Those are the players that fear group loot addons, the dishonest ones with something to hide. Anyone else could politely say at the beginning, “I’m also looking for that item, and I’ll need to keep it if I get one”.

    Yes I have experienced this before. I suspect the inability to whisper them might be because they are set to offline for other reasons. If they were deliberately farming the same gear as you, they would be just as disadvantaged farming for it.

    Sure, there’s nothing wrong with farming for the same gear, or choosing to keep your own drops. I find it mildly annoying when someone lies to your face to try to get your loot without sharing theirs. Maybe group loot addons will make them think twice about trying this.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on February 19, 2021 8:46PM
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