PSA: "Loot Spying" is NOT a Malicious Feature

VoidCommander

After spending over 4 hours today running normal Castle Thorn, a member of my party got the much desired "Unleashed Terror Greatsword," a weapon I greatly desired. Seeing they got the drop with the loot log addon, I asked them if they needed it and if not, if I could have it. They replied that they would have given it to me if I wasn't a "Loot Spy." They proceeded to immediately add me to their ignore list and refused further communication.

Unless you have spent dozens of hours farming for gear yourself, you really have no right to criticize other people for trying to make a painful grind much less time consuming. If you have ever denied someone else loot because they used an addon to track the dozens of item drops in a dungeon to make sure that YOU don't have to scan for the stuff they asked for at the beginning, then you are truly the lowest kind of player.

Calm_Fury

While that was kind of extreme and we don't know how you asked, that is understandable.

I use Group Loot but never directly ask because I know it can be polarizing.

Instead of just messaging the person directly, if I see someone gets what I want I just ask in general chat again: "Did someone get X?". If they don't say anything I'll leave it be.

It is a complicated issue. I don't mind receiving those requests if people just ask once, but I do if they insist. I only asked like that once myself and it didn't go well.

We don't have any rights to what other people looted, specially if we don't know them. The fact that we spent hours farming doesn't really change any of that.

Again, if what you said happened exactly like that, that is clearly an overreaction, but just the fact that you know you were blocked gives a hint that you insisted. I feel the pain of farming something for hours, seeing someone getting it and not sharing, but they are 100% within their reason not to give it to us.

If I'm running with friends, then I have no problem asking directly.

redspecter23

While I myself use a loot tracker addon and also request items from others, it's completely up to someone how they choose to react to others doing it. If they want to deny you an item and ignore you because of the request, that is their choice and they aren't wrong for doing it, even if you or I would behave very differently.

hafgood

I am so glad we don't have that kind of spyware on consoles, my loot is my lookout, if I want to share it I will, if I don't I won't, and what I get is nobody else's business.

Dojohoda

I understand the pain of trying to get one particular item but there are nice people who dislike that addon.

Sanguinor2

It is incredibly silly that people dont have any problems with giving data to companies but have an issue with someone seeing their virtual item drops. 99% that those people that are so against it are on like 4 or 5 social media platforms happily sharing stuff.

Sanctum74

hafgood wrote: »

I am so glad we don't have that kind of spyware on consoles, my loot is my lookout, if I want to share it I will, if I don't I won't, and what I get is nobody else's business.

I agree, I’d gladly give away gear for free, but if you’re spying I wouldn’t even waste a soul gem on ya.

Belegnole

Allowed or not, using an add on that uses the api to look at what someone got is spying. Many consider that rude enough. Then asking for what they got is going even further. If someone chooses to be offended by that I don't particularly blame them. Personally I don't give a hoot, but others do.

Of course how you talk to someone can greatly effect what type of response you're going to get. The written word can be horrible in that regard as business emails have proved over and over again that people often misunderstand the intent behind a message.

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

It is incredibly silly that people dont have any problems with giving data to companies but have an issue with someone seeing their virtual item drops. 99% that those people that are so against it are on like 4 or 5 social media platforms happily sharing stuff.

Oh, I'd say that many don't realize how much information they are giving away. On top of which they don't have much of a choice since the governments are allowing it. So, most sort of pretend it's not happening.

VaranisArano

"Loot Spying" addons are not inherently malicious, no.

But I've had bad experiences with people who use them and then won't take "no" for an answer, enough that I understand why some players take a knee-jerk response of "No, absolutely not," when anyone uses an addon to request specific gear drops from them.

Its not you. Its that other guy who was toxic. Unfortunately, their bad behavior left a mark. It makes me and others unwilling to give addon users the benefit of the doubt that they'll take a "no" answer graciously. People: we're why we can't have nice things.


You know what I do appreciate? People who just ask in group chat, "Anyone got X piece of Y set?" There's no pressure in that and I don't have to worry about a toxic player nagging me if I say "No."

VoidCommander

For those seeking clarification, I only asked them ONCE for the item. They immediately went straight to "if you are spying, I won't give it to you out of principle." They blocked me because I tried explaining to them that loot addons are very common and help people farm gear without asking everyone to check their entire loot for the 8 different things you might need. The reason I posted this is because this is the first time I've ever seen someone react this way to a loot request in my 6 years of playing and it seems like there are plenty of other people who don't understand the value of the loot addon. For those who are against using this addon, I implore you to farm out a zen's inferno staff, see how long it takes for you to get it by yourself. Then try it again with the loot addon where there is no question of "was the person just lazy and didn't want to check their inventory to see if they got something I needed." Being able to whisper someone for a specific item is SO MUCH more efficient for all parties. This thread isn't about being entitled to other people's drops. If the person wanted to keep that greatsword for their own use, that's inconsiderate because I always start with "I'm looking for x gear" so that way if there are other farmers, I can leave group to maximize all our chances. Keeping it for yourself just means that you didn't speak up at the beginning about needing the same gear.

hexnotic

recently i ran a bunch of castle thorn... the unleashed 2 h dropped once after 2 straight days of farming, and it wasn't even for myself lol. you can always try asking in group chat first to see if the person will give up the drop? i usually whisper people politely, and I don't think anyone's gotten salty yet but it does happen.

Sephyr

VoidCommander wrote: »

For those seeking clarification, I only asked them ONCE for the item. They immediately went straight to "if you are spying, I won't give it to you out of principle." They blocked me because I tried explaining to them that loot addons are very common and help people farm gear without asking everyone to check their entire loot for the 8 different things you might need. The reason I posted this is because this is the first time I've ever seen someone react this way to a loot request in my 6 years of playing and it seems like there are plenty of other people who don't understand the value of the loot addon. For those who are against using this addon, I implore you to farm out a zen's inferno staff, see how long it takes for you to get it by yourself. Then try it again with the loot addon where there is no question of "was the person just lazy and didn't want to check their inventory to see if they got something I needed." Being able to whisper someone for a specific item is SO MUCH more efficient for all parties. This thread isn't about being entitled to other people's drops. If the person wanted to keep that greatsword for their own use, that's inconsiderate because I always start with "I'm looking for x gear" so that way if there are other farmers, I can leave group to maximize all our chances. Keeping it for yourself just means that you didn't speak up at the beginning about needing the same gear.

The bolded is exactly why I don't mind if someone is running this addon because I often don't have my chats open when farming content. It's a distraction. Because of that, I'm not going to see it.

If people think that it's so rude to be like "Hey, are you going to use that?", that's just not cool. People should respect the answer of no if they aren't willing to give it out, but to be that kind of person to block out of principle for just asking is pretty irrational.

Hanokihs

IDK, I personally hate the thought of someone knowing what I have and asking me for it. It may seem irrational, but it feels the same as if they started digging through my backpack to see if I have a pen, then going "Oh you don't mind if I take this, do you?" Actually I do mind, ya rude skeever; get out of my stuff. You probably would've had better luck about it if you'd just asked generally. Then it wouldn't feel like you're just rudely pressuring someone to give you something you know they have.

Alternatively, maybe look for people who are just openly willing to help you grind; join and/or ask some guild members. That way you don't have to rely on randos who may not wanna share, and you always have four shots at whatever you need.

Nord_Raseri

So happy things like this are not available on ps4.

WrathOfInnos

I appreciate when people run these addons, saves me the trouble of linking gear I don’t need. 99% of the time I’ll give it to whoever asks, but that other 1% it’s easy to just say “sorry, I need that piece”. I’ve never understood why people get so offended by a convenience tool. It’s your loot, no obligation to share, but denying it out of spite is far more toxic than a polite request for an item.

If you’re on the fence about whether you want to keep something for yourself, consider setting a price for it. Usually you’ll have the person over a barrel and walk away with a lot of gold. I know when I’m 50 runs into a gear farm I would gladly overpay just to be done.

Araneae6537

Add-ons that show others’ loot bother me too, although I would not react like the person in your group, so long as the request was respectful and not pushy.

What do you do when you run a dungeon and someone announces that they’re searching for a piece of gear that you’re also looking for? I would probably say nothing because I wouldn’t want to seem rude or like I’m trying to compete with them for others’ drops, and I don’t assume that anyone else will see my loot. I tried to convey this to someone in one of my guilds who was venting their frustration in guild chat that if someone wasn’t going to give them such-and-such staff, they should have said so at the beginning of the dungeon. No, you shouldn’t have to call dibs on your own loot, that’s not how this game works.

CrashTest

Just ask in chat next time and not directly to the person who has the gear you want. That way, you don't put pressure on them. Say something like, "LF x please."

If the person who got what you're after doesn't respond, then just assume they want it and move on.

Personally, if I'm after something that drops in content I don't enjoy, or if I get farming burnout, I say, "Paying x for y pls." Sometimes, the person who has it will just give it to me for free.

JobooAGS

I welcome people to use loot spying addons. I may have missed a piece of gear or considered it decon trash that is useful to someone else. Bring it on!

VoidCommander

Hanokihs wrote: »

IDK, I personally hate the thought of someone knowing what I have and asking me for it. It may seem irrational, but it feels the same as if they started digging through my backpack to see if I have a pen, then going "Oh you don't mind if I take this, do you?" Actually I do mind, ya rude skeever; get out of my stuff. You probably would've had better luck about it if you'd just asked generally. Then it wouldn't feel like you're just rudely pressuring someone to give you something you know they have.

Alternatively, maybe look for people who are just openly willing to help you grind; join and/or ask some guild members. That way you don't have to rely on randos who may not wanna share, and you always have four shots at whatever you need.

Ok. @hanokihs, I am asking YOU for help farming out a 2 handed sword. The dungeon is long, difficult, and annoying as all hell. With nothing to gain for yourself, please help me farm for this weapon for hours and hours out of your own good heart, because people being willing to trade the gear they do not intend to use is too great a burden.

Do you see where the whole "find some people to farm with you" argument kind of falls flat? I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend my time farming for someone else's gear, not when I can get a full team of randos who are just as capable of getting drops.

Nairinhe

When I give my private info to corporations, that's my conscious choice when I continue to use their services.
If ESO showed everyone's loot to everyone without addon and I'd be agreeing to that by playing the game, fine.
But it doesn't. So no one is entitled to knowing what my loot is and I'm under no obligation to share it. And I consider sticking one's nose in my pockets simply rude.
Would you try to go to someone on the street and take a look in their bag? I think not. Real or virtual, my stuff is, well, mine.

That said, adding to ignore is a bit extreme. I just don't answer to such requests.

Minyassa

Loot "spying"? Seriously? Why is it a secret? What do you lose from someone else knowing what random gumball color just dropped out of the gumball machine you all just used together?

Nairinhe

Minyassa wrote: »

Why is it a secret?

Because it's designed to be so?

Minyassa wrote: »

What do you lose from someone else knowing what random gumball color just dropped out of the gumball machine you all just used together?

Privacy?

I have an option not to tell anyone about my loot.
I enjoy that option.
But someone still gets to see it, despite me not wanting to, and not giving them permission, and (that's most important) not being able to consent or not, and that's unpleasant. See? That's just saying "don't look" and someone still looks.

Generally speaking, not only my loot itself is none of anyone's business, but also reasons why I don't want them to see it. I just don't want to.

Sanguinor2

Nairinhe wrote: »

When I give my private info to corporations, that's my conscious choice when I continue to use their services.
If ESO showed everyone's loot to everyone without addon and I'd be agreeing to that by playing the game, fine.
But it doesn't. So no one is entitled to knowing what my loot is and I'm under no obligation to share it. And I consider sticking one's nose in my pockets simply rude.
Would you try to go to someone on the street and take a look in their bag? I think not. Real or virtual, my stuff is, well, mine.

That said, adding to ignore is a bit extreme. I just don't answer to such requests.

Actually the virtual stuff isnt yours. You agree to not owning anything when agreeing to TOS. You dont even own your account let alone whats on it.
It also is your concious choice to tolerate it tbh since Zos officially endorses loot addons by allowing them through their API, having these addons is only possible because Zos deems them worthy of being added to the game. Zos has already disabled addons that they deemed harmful through their API so if they thought loot addons are bad they would´ve disabled them already.
And I think we both know that your example does not really apply. While it would be really creepy to walk up and look into someone´s bag in Eso you are looking at 3 lines of words(assuming 3 people pick up their loot) in your own chat box for which no one is inconvenienced or even affected at all. You dont even notice that it is a thing until someone actively talks to you.
Obviously you are under no obligation to share your loot with anyone but tbh I find it more rude to simply ignore someone than someone reading addon generated lines in their own chat and asking a polite question to someone but thats just me.

Nairinhe

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

When I give my private info to corporations, that's my conscious choice when I continue to use their services.
If ESO showed everyone's loot to everyone without addon and I'd be agreeing to that by playing the game, fine.
But it doesn't. So no one is entitled to knowing what my loot is and I'm under no obligation to share it. And I consider sticking one's nose in my pockets simply rude.
Would you try to go to someone on the street and take a look in their bag? I think not. Real or virtual, my stuff is, well, mine.

That said, adding to ignore is a bit extreme. I just don't answer to such requests.

Actually the virtual stuff isnt yours. You agree to not owning anything when agreeing to TOS. You dont even own your account let alone whats on it.
It also is your concious choice to tolerate it tbh since Zos officially endorses loot addons by allowing them through their API, having these addons is only possible because Zos deems them worthy of being added to the game. Zos has already disabled addons that they deemed harmful through their API so if they thought loot addons are bad they would´ve disabled them already.
And I think we both know that your example does not really apply. While it would be really creepy to walk up and look into someone´s bag in Eso you are looking at 3 lines of words(assuming 3 people pick up their loot) in your own chat box for which no one is inconvenienced or even affected at all. You dont even notice that it is a thing until someone actively talks to you.
Obviously you are under no obligation to share your loot with anyone but tbh I find it more rude to simply ignore someone than someone reading addon generated lines in their own chat and asking a polite question to someone but thats just me.

I find looking into someone's loot equally creepy and rude. And looks like that's not just me.

Also I wouldn't count not bothering to close part of an API as "endorsing". More like it just doesn't cause enough trouble for them to spend resources on it.

I think that would be great if addon only showed loot from people who also have that addon, or had some other way to opt-in. It's the fact that I don't have a say in that that bothers me the most.

Sanguinor2

Nairinhe wrote: »

I find looking into someone's loot equally creepy and rude. And looks like that's not just me.

Also I wouldn't count not bothering to close part of an API as "endorsing". More like it just doesn't cause enough trouble for them to spend resources on it.

You are free to consider it that way. And Im free to consider it perplexing that loot is what you take issue with but apparently dont seem to mind Zos tracking what you are doing, when, with whom and how often, what you look at in the store, what you buy in the store, in which patterns you log in to play, when you take a short break ingame among many many other things Zos tracks as soon as you log in. Zos also knows what loot you are getting btw. Oh and they also can use all that and more for their "commercial interests". I wonder what that might entail.... Another fun fact: This isnt even limited to the Eso team, whenever any team from Zos wants any of this information about your Eso habits they can get it no problem and no questions asked. Aka your data can be used by marketing teams which arent even involved with Eso in a single way besides being paid by Zos and is likely being used as we speak for the new title Zos is currently developing.

The thing with API is you either allow it or you dont. But not anything in between. Since Zos has, at one point, allowed it and apparently not changed their stance on that matter we can assume it is officially allowed by Zos until they say otherwise.

goldenarcher1

Offer 100k in group chat for the piece of gear you want at the start of the dungeon or trial.

This tends to concentrate peoples minds.

RedMuse

VoidCommander wrote: »

After spending over 4 hours today running normal Castle Thorn, a member of my party got the much desired "Unleashed Terror Greatsword," a weapon I greatly desired. Seeing they got the drop with the loot log addon, I asked them if they needed it and if not, if I could have it. They replied that they would have given it to me if I wasn't a "Loot Spy." They proceeded to immediately add me to their ignore list and refused further communication.

Unless you have spent dozens of hours farming for gear yourself, you really have no right to criticize other people for trying to make a painful grind much less time consuming. If you have ever denied someone else loot because they used an addon to track the dozens of item drops in a dungeon to make sure that YOU don't have to scan for the stuff they asked for at the beginning, then you are truly the lowest kind of player.

Nah. I have spent dozens of hours farming for certain item and I also block people who use loot spy addons because I tired of being harassed by people who won't take no for an answer. I don't say anything, I just slap an ignore on them and move. If you can't just ask like a normal person I'm going to assume the worst of you for my own peace of gaming and black and move along.

Nairinhe

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

I find looking into someone's loot equally creepy and rude. And looks like that's not just me.

Also I wouldn't count not bothering to close part of an API as "endorsing". More like it just doesn't cause enough trouble for them to spend resources on it.

You are free to consider it that way. And Im free to consider it perplexing that loot is what you take issue with but apparently dont seem to mind Zos tracking what you are doing, when, with whom and how often, what you look at in the store, what you buy in the store, in which patterns you log in to play, when you take a short break ingame among many many other things Zos tracks as soon as you log in. Zos also knows what loot you are getting btw. Oh and they also can use all that and more for their "commercial interests". I wonder what that might entail.... Another fun fact: This isnt even limited to the Eso team, whenever any team from Zos wants any of this information about your Eso habits they can get it no problem and no questions asked. Aka your data can be used by marketing teams which arent even involved with Eso in a single way besides being paid by Zos and is likely being used as we speak for the new title Zos is currently developing.

The thing with API is you either allow it or you dont. But not anything in between. Since Zos has, at one point, allowed it and apparently not changed their stance on that matter we can assume it is officially allowed by Zos until they say otherwise.

1. I officially agreed to ZOS tracking me, by accepting EULA (I think, I must admit I didn't read that).
2. ZOS or someone assigned by ZOS tracking my actions within ZOS own product in no way justifies someone else spying on me.
3. ESO logs let you opt-in, AFAIK. Means, ZOS is capable of providing you a way to control what you share. And if you cannot opt out of sharing loot, that function shouldn't be in API at all.

Again: absolutely no one among other players is entitled to information about my loot. Heck, when I'm playing with my BF I can literally look at his screen and see what he got. Instead, I ask if he has something to share. I wonder, why?

wheresbes

We are all different, with different viewpoints and different reactions, there's no way around it.

I can't comment on the OP specific issue as I play on console, but even when I was on PC, I rarely used addons or mods because I liked the extra challenge (I'm looking at you Oblivion levelling system), unless something was really deal-breaking.

VoidCommander wrote: »

(...) For those who are against using this addon, I implore you to farm out a zen's inferno staff, see how long it takes for you to get it by yourself. (...)

See, I've run VoM an awful amount of times to get the fire and healing staves to the point that I don't know if they actually exist. The positive thing is that now I know that dungeon as the back of my hand so when people actually wait for the tank to lead the way, I don't embarrass myself (I'm planning on getting to know EVERY dungeon that well). But most of all, I decided to embrace the disappointing DR and buy/craft when possible or simply using other set combinations.

BTW, I stopped bothering to link in chat what I can give away as I rarely get a response. If someone asks for something and I already have it in the sticker book, I'll gladly give it for free. I also seem to never find the time to type what I'm looking for as either people start rushing ahead or they leave the group ASAP (I PUG a lot), so really, I just embrace the DR and amen.

Katheriah

I hate this thing and anyone that whispers me with 'can I have that' will not get it. In contrary to people that ask in group if a certain item dropped, or tell there that they're looking for something specific.

VaranisArano

VoidCommander wrote: »

For those seeking clarification, I only asked them ONCE for the item. They immediately went straight to "if you are spying, I won't give it to you out of principle." They blocked me because I tried explaining to them that loot addons are very common and help people farm gear without asking everyone to check their entire loot for the 8 different things you might need. The reason I posted this is because this is the first time I've ever seen someone react this way to a loot request in my 6 years of playing and it seems like there are plenty of other people who don't understand the value of the loot addon. For those who are against using this addon, I implore you to farm out a zen's inferno staff, see how long it takes for you to get it by yourself. Then try it again with the loot addon where there is no question of "was the person just lazy and didn't want to check their inventory to see if they got something I needed." Being able to whisper someone for a specific item is SO MUCH more efficient for all parties. This thread isn't about being entitled to other people's drops. If the person wanted to keep that greatsword for their own use, that's inconsiderate because I always start with "I'm looking for x gear" so that way if there are other farmers, I can leave group to maximize all our chances. Keeping it for yourself just means that you didn't speak up at the beginning about needing the same gear.

Here's the thing.

Its not your fault. You asked once and they leaped immediately to "No" and Ignore.

Now, you, bewildered and frustrated, ask, "Why?"

Its because to that other person, you are Scroedinger's Loot Spying Addon User.

Maybe you are a perfectly reasonable player who, despite having run the content for hours trying to get a much desired drop, will graciously accept "No" for an answer.

Maybe you are a mostly reasonable player who, having run the content for hours trying to get a much desired drop, will try to bargain or ask for an explanation why not, but eventually accept "No" for an answer.

Maybe you are a very frustrated player who, having run the content for hours with no sign of a much desired drop, will turn toxic upon being told "No".

I have met all three types of Loot Spying Addon Users, and I have no way of knowing which they are until I tell them "No." Since I have no desire to deal with the third, or spend my time debate with the second over my "No" answer, I understand why some players take the approach of "No" and Ignore.


If you sincerely don't understand why they reacted the way they did, its not you, specifically. Its because they don't know you, and they don't want to risk this turning into a drama-fest where you don't take a "No" answer graciously and let them get on with their night.

"But its more efficient!"

Well, its more efficient at letting Schroedinger's Loot Addon User see who to ask politely/beg/demand/insist/bargain or swear at in order to get the loot item they want. (And yes, I've had all those reactions from different players using loot addons.)

Its not more effective at getting your MY loot. After dealing with Schroedinger's Loot Spying Addon User, I respond much better to a polite, no pressure, group chat request for particular sets/items. I will happily look at gear in no pressure situations. Using an addon puts me into the "Is this a polite, bargaining, or toxic Schroedinger's Loot Spy?" mode. (Others have talked about the creepy factor of others looking through private loot. For me, its that sudden direct interaction as someone asks ME for MY loot, and my only choice is to hand it over or risk a potentially very toxic interaction.)


And I have to be frank, while you might not have ever been toxic in your initial request, you aren't respecting the very firm "No" you were given. Admittedly, you dislike the given reason of "I don't like players who use loot addons" but you also said as much about a more common reason of "No, turns out I need that that gear myself."

You said, "If the person wanted to keep that greatsword for their own use, that's inconsiderate because I always start with "I'm looking for x gear" so that way if there are other farmers, I can leave group to maximize all our chances. Keeping it for yourself just means that you didn't speak up at the beginning about needing the same gear."

That does not inspire confidence in me that, had the player said "No" with any other explanation, you would have taken that graciously. Maybe you would have? But in any case, the player who you asked doesn't know that.