PvP Tierlist for Markarth

Zer0oo

I think the proc class is missing:
3 proc sets+malacath
class after that is mainly irrelevant and is only there to buff the procs

caperb

wheem_ESO wrote: »

First of all, if the OP is referring solely to premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds games when mentioning BGs, he should make that more clear. Secondly, I don't consider Magicka Necromancer in an S or A tier even under those circumstances, for a variety of reasons. As I said before, perhaps there are some super secret builds permeating EU and/or consoles that make things drastically different than they are on PC-NA, and I'm more than willing to change my mind if shown actual hard evidence.

I can count the number of Magicka Necromancers that I regularly see in PC-NA BGs on one hand. At least one of them has a DOT build that's quite similar to one of the builds that I use off-and-on, and yes, the overall damage done is quite high. However, it's still less deadly than what can be achieved by many other builds, especially Stamina, while simultaneously being less mobile and easier to kill. The off-healing also isn't that strong when you're running multiple proc sets and have weak spell damage.

Magcro is simply a must have in your BG group right now because it effectively counters the current meta the best of all classes and also is a burst enabler for the rest of the group.

I mean, magcro has a purge on their AoE burst heal, which makes all DoT proc builds pretty useless. And we see DoT proc builds a lot in BG´s.

At the same time their AoE breach allows the rest of the group to make full use of their damaging proc sets. By the way, assuming you play together.

I do not see how magcro cannot be on top of the list because at the same time it uses and defends against the current meta. With a good magcro in your group the only way to die is to get caught in a coordinated burst window or lose your magcro.

Volckodav

caperb wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I mean, magcro has a purge on their AoE burst heal, which makes all DoT proc builds pretty useless. And we see DoT proc builds a lot in BG´s.

complety agree on magcro, but I think the majority of people just dont know yet magcro skills, ie that purge. like last time even my team mate role doge of the heal zone when I proc it )))

Waffennacht

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caperb wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

First of all, if the OP is referring solely to premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds games when mentioning BGs, he should make that more clear. Secondly, I don't consider Magicka Necromancer in an S or A tier even under those circumstances, for a variety of reasons. As I said before, perhaps there are some super secret builds permeating EU and/or consoles that make things drastically different than they are on PC-NA, and I'm more than willing to change my mind if shown actual hard evidence.

I can count the number of Magicka Necromancers that I regularly see in PC-NA BGs on one hand. At least one of them has a DOT build that's quite similar to one of the builds that I use off-and-on, and yes, the overall damage done is quite high. However, it's still less deadly than what can be achieved by many other builds, especially Stamina, while simultaneously being less mobile and easier to kill. The off-healing also isn't that strong when you're running multiple proc sets and have weak spell damage.

Magcro is simply a must have in your BG group right now because it effectively counters the current meta the best of all classes and also is a burst enabler for the rest of the group.

I mean, magcro has a purge on their AoE burst heal, which makes all DoT proc builds pretty useless. And we see DoT proc builds a lot in BG´s.

At the same time their AoE breach allows the rest of the group to make full use of their damaging proc sets. By the way, assuming you play together.

I do not see how magcro cannot be on top of the list because at the same time it uses and defends against the current meta. With a good magcro in your group the only way to die is to get caught in a coordinated burst window or lose your magcro.

But in solo queue, mag necro drops considerably yes?

katorga

caperb wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

First of all, if the OP is referring solely to premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds games when mentioning BGs, he should make that more clear. Secondly, I don't consider Magicka Necromancer in an S or A tier even under those circumstances, for a variety of reasons. As I said before, perhaps there are some super secret builds permeating EU and/or consoles that make things drastically different than they are on PC-NA, and I'm more than willing to change my mind if shown actual hard evidence.

I can count the number of Magicka Necromancers that I regularly see in PC-NA BGs on one hand. At least one of them has a DOT build that's quite similar to one of the builds that I use off-and-on, and yes, the overall damage done is quite high. However, it's still less deadly than what can be achieved by many other builds, especially Stamina, while simultaneously being less mobile and easier to kill. The off-healing also isn't that strong when you're running multiple proc sets and have weak spell damage.

Magcro is simply a must have in your BG group right now because it effectively counters the current meta the best of all classes and also is a burst enabler for the rest of the group.

I mean, magcro has a purge on their AoE burst heal, which makes all DoT proc builds pretty useless. And we see DoT proc builds a lot in BG´s.

At the same time their AoE breach allows the rest of the group to make full use of their damaging proc sets. By the way, assuming you play together.

I do not see how magcro cannot be on top of the list because at the same time it uses and defends against the current meta. With a good magcro in your group the only way to die is to get caught in a coordinated burst window or lose your magcro.

Now I get it. I was only thinking damage builds, not support.

Not a bad spot to be in being a "must have" for pve as well.

Volckodav

Waffennacht wrote: »

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caperb wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

First of all, if the OP is referring solely to premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds games when mentioning BGs, he should make that more clear. Secondly, I don't consider Magicka Necromancer in an S or A tier even under those circumstances, for a variety of reasons. As I said before, perhaps there are some super secret builds permeating EU and/or consoles that make things drastically different than they are on PC-NA, and I'm more than willing to change my mind if shown actual hard evidence.

I can count the number of Magicka Necromancers that I regularly see in PC-NA BGs on one hand. At least one of them has a DOT build that's quite similar to one of the builds that I use off-and-on, and yes, the overall damage done is quite high. However, it's still less deadly than what can be achieved by many other builds, especially Stamina, while simultaneously being less mobile and easier to kill. The off-healing also isn't that strong when you're running multiple proc sets and have weak spell damage.

Magcro is simply a must have in your BG group right now because it effectively counters the current meta the best of all classes and also is a burst enabler for the rest of the group.

I mean, magcro has a purge on their AoE burst heal, which makes all DoT proc builds pretty useless. And we see DoT proc builds a lot in BG´s.

At the same time their AoE breach allows the rest of the group to make full use of their damaging proc sets. By the way, assuming you play together.

I do not see how magcro cannot be on top of the list because at the same time it uses and defends against the current meta. With a good magcro in your group the only way to die is to get caught in a coordinated burst window or lose your magcro.

But in solo queue, mag necro drops considerably yes?

yes, like as usual coordinated/group content, like group BG, ball group etc.. mag > stam, all other case stam dominate, especially in solo. as it is since some time already

caperb

Waffennacht wrote: »

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caperb wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

First of all, if the OP is referring solely to premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds games when mentioning BGs, he should make that more clear. Secondly, I don't consider Magicka Necromancer in an S or A tier even under those circumstances, for a variety of reasons. As I said before, perhaps there are some super secret builds permeating EU and/or consoles that make things drastically different than they are on PC-NA, and I'm more than willing to change my mind if shown actual hard evidence.

I can count the number of Magicka Necromancers that I regularly see in PC-NA BGs on one hand. At least one of them has a DOT build that's quite similar to one of the builds that I use off-and-on, and yes, the overall damage done is quite high. However, it's still less deadly than what can be achieved by many other builds, especially Stamina, while simultaneously being less mobile and easier to kill. The off-healing also isn't that strong when you're running multiple proc sets and have weak spell damage.

Magcro is simply a must have in your BG group right now because it effectively counters the current meta the best of all classes and also is a burst enabler for the rest of the group.

I mean, magcro has a purge on their AoE burst heal, which makes all DoT proc builds pretty useless. And we see DoT proc builds a lot in BG´s.

At the same time their AoE breach allows the rest of the group to make full use of their damaging proc sets. By the way, assuming you play together.

I do not see how magcro cannot be on top of the list because at the same time it uses and defends against the current meta. With a good magcro in your group the only way to die is to get caught in a coordinated burst window or lose your magcro.

But in solo queue, mag necro drops considerably yes?

When your groups runs into all directions? In that case the class is just a simple proc carrier, which necro has nice passive for but I would rather go stamina then. So yes, in solo queue magcro drops on the list.

BohnT2

Waffennacht wrote: »

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caperb wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

First of all, if the OP is referring solely to premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds games when mentioning BGs, he should make that more clear. Secondly, I don't consider Magicka Necromancer in an S or A tier even under those circumstances, for a variety of reasons. As I said before, perhaps there are some super secret builds permeating EU and/or consoles that make things drastically different than they are on PC-NA, and I'm more than willing to change my mind if shown actual hard evidence.

I can count the number of Magicka Necromancers that I regularly see in PC-NA BGs on one hand. At least one of them has a DOT build that's quite similar to one of the builds that I use off-and-on, and yes, the overall damage done is quite high. However, it's still less deadly than what can be achieved by many other builds, especially Stamina, while simultaneously being less mobile and easier to kill. The off-healing also isn't that strong when you're running multiple proc sets and have weak spell damage.

Magcro is simply a must have in your BG group right now because it effectively counters the current meta the best of all classes and also is a burst enabler for the rest of the group.

I mean, magcro has a purge on their AoE burst heal, which makes all DoT proc builds pretty useless. And we see DoT proc builds a lot in BG´s.

At the same time their AoE breach allows the rest of the group to make full use of their damaging proc sets. By the way, assuming you play together.

I do not see how magcro cannot be on top of the list because at the same time it uses and defends against the current meta. With a good magcro in your group the only way to die is to get caught in a coordinated burst window or lose your magcro.

But in solo queue, mag necro drops considerably yes?

Solo queue wasn't taken into consideration as the individual teams have a huge effect on how the matches will go and how this affects viability of specs.

Waffennacht

Curious, do WWs get a consideration?

BohnT2

Waffennacht wrote: »

Curious, do WWs get a consideration?

They do but we have agreed on not having them separately listed as we'd have to make a separate icon for each class abusing WW and we haven't put them into the older lists, anyways they're still extremely powerful/overtuned.

Dracane

Waffennacht wrote: »

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caperb wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

First of all, if the OP is referring solely to premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds games when mentioning BGs, he should make that more clear. Secondly, I don't consider Magicka Necromancer in an S or A tier even under those circumstances, for a variety of reasons. As I said before, perhaps there are some super secret builds permeating EU and/or consoles that make things drastically different than they are on PC-NA, and I'm more than willing to change my mind if shown actual hard evidence.

I can count the number of Magicka Necromancers that I regularly see in PC-NA BGs on one hand. At least one of them has a DOT build that's quite similar to one of the builds that I use off-and-on, and yes, the overall damage done is quite high. However, it's still less deadly than what can be achieved by many other builds, especially Stamina, while simultaneously being less mobile and easier to kill. The off-healing also isn't that strong when you're running multiple proc sets and have weak spell damage.

Magcro is simply a must have in your BG group right now because it effectively counters the current meta the best of all classes and also is a burst enabler for the rest of the group.

I mean, magcro has a purge on their AoE burst heal, which makes all DoT proc builds pretty useless. And we see DoT proc builds a lot in BG´s.

At the same time their AoE breach allows the rest of the group to make full use of their damaging proc sets. By the way, assuming you play together.

I do not see how magcro cannot be on top of the list because at the same time it uses and defends against the current meta. With a good magcro in your group the only way to die is to get caught in a coordinated burst window or lose your magcro.

But in solo queue, mag necro drops considerably yes?

Here lies the problem with everyone saying Magcro is so bad.

If a class is not top terror solo, it is deemed trash. While in reality, the fewest of us even play solo most of the time or ever.
Eso is not a duelling simulator and Zenimax has went through efforts to make groups stronger and solo players weaker. It is not intended to play solo in pvp like this and hence, a class being good solo, means nothing. Nothing at all. It's a very much useless category unless you feel the urge to prove something.

Necromancer is a star in groupplay and that is what matters. This is the majority of encounters. Who cares if a class is good solo? You will not solo good or decent players. Only plebs. It's meaingless, superfluous. So in conclusion: Magcro is great where it matters.

Waffennacht

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wheem_ESO

caperb wrote: »

Magcro is simply a must have in your BG group right now because it effectively counters the current meta the best of all classes and also is a burst enabler for the rest of the group.

I mean, magcro has a purge on their AoE burst heal, which makes all DoT proc builds pretty useless. And we see DoT proc builds a lot in BG´s.

At the same time their AoE breach allows the rest of the group to make full use of their damaging proc sets. By the way, assuming you play together.

I do not see how magcro cannot be on top of the list because at the same time it uses and defends against the current meta. With a good magcro in your group the only way to die is to get caught in a coordinated burst window or lose your magcro.

If it's a class that only achieves a certain tier as a healer or support role, then that's something else that should have been noted on the list. But since I don't see any mention whatsoever of team support for any of the classes, I'm not sure that your assumption matches what the OP was alluding to.

Even in the case of dedicated support roles, I think you might be overvaluing Renewing Undeath somewhat. Back before the big healing nerf to Battlespirit, I often said that Renewing Undeath was an underappreciated spell. The healing was pretty good, and the cleanse was really nice when the number of DOTs and debuffs tended to be more limited, and not applied/reapplied nearly as quickly and easily as they are now. It's very possible for a single player to apply more status effects in a single GCD than Renewing Undeath will cleanse, and some of those things can be automatically reapplied with no additional input from the attacker.

As an example, one light attack + Soul Trap cast can potentially apply 2x poison DOTs, Syvarra's Scales DOT, Poisoned status effect, Soul Trap DOT, and Oblivion's Foe DOT. There's no real way, so far as I know, to predict which of those 3 effects Renewing Undeath will remove, but if it gets Oblivion's Foe and not Soul Trap, the former will automatically be reapplied on the next tick. Syvarra's Scales can also automatically reapply after its 7 second cooldown is over, should one of the other DOTs still be left on the target. That doesn't mean that Renewing Undeath is trash or anything, since I suppose the partial un-nerf of Battlespirit helped out a bit, but it's not some kind of hard-counter to the current meta (especially against groups with multiple people running proc DOTs), or something that makes healers on other classes obsolete.

I haven't been running very many premade games at all lately, but it still seems to be the case that almost all deaths are due to either coordinated burst windows or environmental damage. Many DOT builds can wrack up giant damage numbers, but still not actually get very many kills against teams with healers. And considering the fact that I've only seen one Magicka Necromancer healer lately, and even then it was only 1 or 2 BGs in a single evening, I think the other classes are managing OK without Renewing Undeath.

Dracane wrote: »

While in reality, the fewest of us even play solo most of the time or ever.

Maybe that's true on your platform, but full premade-vs-premade-vs-premade BGs on PC-NA are the exception, not the rule. And premade-vs-random stomps don't really matter much when it comes to class makeup. Unless there's a Mag Sorc stealing the premade's kills, their coordination, dedicated healing, and tryharding will generally out-compete everyone else. Especially since MMR seems a lot more relaxed than it used to be, and you can't rely on having the "usual suspects" on your team every game.

katorga

Whether magcro is good, bad or in between I'm finding the thread hugely educational.

The_Lex

I’ve always wanted to run a Magcro in pvp, but always hesitated to grind one up. I’m following this discussion closely and have found it very enlightening.

BohnT2

katorga wrote: »

Whether magcro is good, bad or in between I'm finding the thread hugely educational.

Magnecro in a vacuum has great survivability and sustain but utterly mindbooglingly bad offence.

However with procs being the defining aspect of your offence this patch magnecro performs great, the second procs leave the picture it's going back down again

Hesperax79

I miss the Werewolf from the "S" tier - regardless of the original cast.

katorga

BohnT2 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Whether magcro is good, bad or in between I'm finding the thread hugely educational.

Magnecro in a vacuum has great survivability and sustain but utterly mindbooglingly bad offence.

However with procs being the defining aspect of your offence this patch magnecro performs great, the second procs leave the picture it's going back down again

Makes sense. I've definitely struggled with the class, and have noticed the impact on stamcro of recent changes. Magcro just doesn't "flow", even in pve, the rotations are nightmarish. I've been playing my sorc more and more.

Listening to the discussion has given me lots of ideas, pointed out things I never thought of, and it is always fun to see what interesting things others come up with.

The_Lex

The_Lex wrote: »

I’ve always wanted to run a Magcro in pvp, but always hesitated to grind one up. I’m following this discussion closely and have found it very enlightening.

Following up with this, I may roll a Necro but make it a Dunmer so I can swap between Stam or mag...or Nord.

L_Nici

Not much to say against it, I just would personally put Magsorc in solo a solid A, while Stamsorc goes down to a solid B to the Stamblade. I always felt like Stamsorc and Stamblade are very similar in many points, while Magsorc is considerably stronger than Stamsorc.

Waffennacht

L_Nici wrote: »

Not much to say against it, I just would personally put Magsorc in solo a solid A, while Stamsorc goes down to a solid B to the Stamblade. I always felt like Stamsorc and Stamblade are very similar in many points, while Magsorc is considerably stronger than Stamsorc.

Stamsorc probably gets a higher rating due to the current Hurricane + Unfathomable bug

Urvoth

It's hard to take this tierlist seriously with mag necro so highly rated on there. Mag necro is viable right now SOLELY because of proc dots and even so, there's no execute power. The offensive kit basically just consists of buggy blastbones and everything else is proc damage. Even the proc damage is worse than stam, though, hence why you see tons of stam necros at high mmr but not as many mag ones. The class is on the tankier end, but has no mobility, offensive cc, etc. For bgs at least, there's less than a handful of actual high mmr, skilled mag necro mains on PC NA, and that's for a reason.

For premades, it definitely adds a bit of utility but nothing really better than what a magden, magdk, or magplar would add.

BohnT2

Urvoth wrote: »

It's hard to take this tierlist seriously with mag necro so highly rated on there. Mag necro is viable right now SOLELY because of proc dots and even so, there's no execute power. The offensive kit basically just consists of buggy blastbones and everything else is proc damage. Even the proc damage is worse than stam, though, hence why you see tons of stam necros at high mmr but not as many mag ones. The class is on the tankier end, but has no mobility, offensive cc, etc. For bgs at least, there's less than a handful of actual high mmr, skilled mag necro mains on PC NA, and that's for a reason.

For premades, it definitely adds a bit of utility but nothing really better than what a magden, magdk, or magplar would add.

Urvoth

BohnT2 wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

It's hard to take this tierlist seriously with mag necro so highly rated on there. Mag necro is viable right now SOLELY because of proc dots and even so, there's no execute power. The offensive kit basically just consists of buggy blastbones and everything else is proc damage. Even the proc damage is worse than stam, though, hence why you see tons of stam necros at high mmr but not as many mag ones. The class is on the tankier end, but has no mobility, offensive cc, etc. For bgs at least, there's less than a handful of actual high mmr, skilled mag necro mains on PC NA, and that's for a reason.

For premades, it definitely adds a bit of utility but nothing really better than what a magden, magdk, or magplar would add.

The 15% extra dot dmg passive in no way completely makes up for what the class lacks in other areas. Yes, it helps buff dot procs, but that's it.

Waffennacht

Urvoth wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

It's hard to take this tierlist seriously with mag necro so highly rated on there. Mag necro is viable right now SOLELY because of proc dots and even so, there's no execute power. The offensive kit basically just consists of buggy blastbones and everything else is proc damage. Even the proc damage is worse than stam, though, hence why you see tons of stam necros at high mmr but not as many mag ones. The class is on the tankier end, but has no mobility, offensive cc, etc. For bgs at least, there's less than a handful of actual high mmr, skilled mag necro mains on PC NA, and that's for a reason.

For premades, it definitely adds a bit of utility but nothing really better than what a magden, magdk, or magplar would add.

The 15% extra dot dmg passive in no way completely makes up for what the class lacks in other areas. Yes, it helps buff dot procs, but that's it.

Rwmember, this list is completely pre made group qualifiers. The added utility given to the group (a group that's capable of utilizing such utility) is what elevates Necro. The ability to hamper the opposing team's procs is also taken into consideration (the purges as an example) the Breach effects, the NPC snare (hamstrung), off healing, and ult support.

When you factor that, and not a PuG team, the line up makes more sense

BohnT2

Urvoth wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

It's hard to take this tierlist seriously with mag necro so highly rated on there. Mag necro is viable right now SOLELY because of proc dots and even so, there's no execute power. The offensive kit basically just consists of buggy blastbones and everything else is proc damage. Even the proc damage is worse than stam, though, hence why you see tons of stam necros at high mmr but not as many mag ones. The class is on the tankier end, but has no mobility, offensive cc, etc. For bgs at least, there's less than a handful of actual high mmr, skilled mag necro mains on PC NA, and that's for a reason.

For premades, it definitely adds a bit of utility but nothing really better than what a magden, magdk, or magplar would add.

The 15% extra dot dmg passive in no way completely makes up for what the class lacks in other areas. Yes, it helps buff dot procs, but that's it.

For Solo play Magnecro benefits a lot from having access to Goliath ult which increases your pressure a lot while keeping you alive for the duration.

In a meta that is highly focused on pressure this is a big advantage.
Additionally the 15% reduced dot damage taken means that meta builds are instantly at an disadvantage.

Defensive wise Magnecro has always been great, it was just horribly bad when it comes to offence with procs being the main source of damage for almost everyone right now magnecro can ignore all its shortcomings in this area.

Adenoma

I’m curious for theorycrafters on here, what do you think of being ideal BG team comp?

Sergykid

how big of a contributor are the disgusting mythics? especially the band which is severely out of their set bonus efficiency. Also talked about it here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/555980/is-it-that-difficult-to-get-explanations-from-the-combat-balance-team

BohnT2

Sergykid wrote: »

how big of a contributor are the disgusting mythics? especially the band which is severely out of their set bonus efficiency. Also talked about it here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/555980/is-it-that-difficult-to-get-explanations-from-the-combat-balance-team

There's 2 specs not using malacath at most, the rest better be running malacath.

Waffennacht

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