PvP Tierlist for Markarth

Dracane

Does not everyone say that magicka Warden is one of the worst classes in existence?
I personally do not, yet I am surprised to see it solidified here.

I very much agree with all the rankings. Very little I would object to.

Waffennacht

.

Dracane wrote: »

Does not everyone say that magicka Warden is one of the worst classes in existence?
I personally do not, yet I am surprised to see it solidified here.

I very much agree with all the rankings. Very little I would object to.

Not since a lot of gaps got filled by sets.

Also % based mods are all the rage and warden has that by the droves.

I havent read magden being low ranked since my hiatus

Dracane

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Dracane wrote: »

Does not everyone say that magicka Warden is one of the worst classes in existence?
I personally do not, yet I am surprised to see it solidified here.

I very much agree with all the rankings. Very little I would object to.

Not since a lot of gaps got filled by sets.

Also % based mods are all the rage and warden has that by the droves.

I havent read magden being low ranked since my hiatus

That is true. I think people are beginning to see, that classes they always deemed so weak, are in fact not.
Magicka Templar is crazy and people learn this right now, as this very infamous godmode build spreads like a disease. And they see how good magicka warden is too.

It seems many builds pop up right now, that make some classes very strong. Proc sets. Seriously though, I hope january puts an end to this meta.

katorga

Dracane wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Dracane wrote: »

Does not everyone say that magicka Warden is one of the worst classes in existence?
I personally do not, yet I am surprised to see it solidified here.

I very much agree with all the rankings. Very little I would object to.

Not since a lot of gaps got filled by sets.

Also % based mods are all the rage and warden has that by the droves.

I havent read magden being low ranked since my hiatus

That is true. I think people are beginning to see, that classes they always deemed so weak, are in fact not.
Magicka Templar is crazy and people learn this right now, as this very infamous godmode build spreads like a disease. And they see how good magicka warden is too.

It seems many builds pop up right now, that make some classes very strong. Proc sets. Seriously though, I hope january puts an end to this meta.

Class doesn't really matter, the build is the same. Warden has the best kit to leverage it. But if it makes a garbage class like Magcro top tier, it will work with anything. Could say that is "balance",

Dracane

katorga wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Dracane wrote: »

Does not everyone say that magicka Warden is one of the worst classes in existence?
I personally do not, yet I am surprised to see it solidified here.

I very much agree with all the rankings. Very little I would object to.

Not since a lot of gaps got filled by sets.

Also % based mods are all the rage and warden has that by the droves.

I havent read magden being low ranked since my hiatus

That is true. I think people are beginning to see, that classes they always deemed so weak, are in fact not.
Magicka Templar is crazy and people learn this right now, as this very infamous godmode build spreads like a disease. And they see how good magicka warden is too.

It seems many builds pop up right now, that make some classes very strong. Proc sets. Seriously though, I hope january puts an end to this meta.

Class doesn't really matter, the build is the same. Warden has the best kit to leverage it. But if it makes a garbage class like Magcro top tier, it will work with anything. Could say that is "balance",

People seem to look mostly at passives when choosing which husk to use for a proc build. Since most notorious procs are all damage over time, necromancer is the next best choice for this. Offensively speaking.

Joy_Division

HankTwo wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Who are those mysterious A-Tier magicka necromancers solo roaming PC EU no cp cyro with more success than nightblades and magsorcs? I certainly havent met any, but maybe im just out of touch with the 1vX meta?

The rating of nocp solo magplar is also quite funny...

That list seems weird.

Two players you might know are Strepsels or Heresyall who both play Magnecro incredibly well in no cp, 1vX has seen some big changes with the high useage of procs and HP pools steadily going up.

The magplar rating is based on a "new" build that has started to spread which makes Magplar really strong in no cp

Can you tell me more about this "new" magplar build? I was looking for a reason to respec into magicka again after a long time

2 piece zaan + vate destro frontbar + 1 piece malacath + your health regen set of choice (orgnums, alessia, beekeeper, eternal vigor, ... a set like orgnum you can also easily backbar) + whatever combination of trainee, endurance and willpower you prefer (for max defense 3 piece endurance + 1 piece trainee).

Be a low stage vamp with infused cost reduction on the jewelry and maybe steed mundus for some extra mobility and even more health regen. Potion with health effect and maybe repentance on the backbar for high health regen multipliers.

Results in a build with around 3k - 5k health regen in no CP and a mistform that costs less than 100 mag per second (with rune focus, heavy armor passives and magicka steal such a build can generate much more mag in mistform than what it costs). Only real counters are negate and oblivion damage, other than that a build like this is pretty much unkillable in a 1v1 since well rounded PvP builds cant sustain the damage required to outdamage the health regen in mistform (as the attacker you can try to damage through the mistform but this will just result in you spending a *** ton of resources while the mistform build regains mag + stam and potentially even health, which opens you up for counter attacks).

Gameplay is pretty much apply zaan and vateshran and go full ham while zaan is connected, if that fails to kill your opponent camp in mistform (while ideally always keeping vate destro up) until zaan cd is down, then try again (if outnumbered you can even kill weaker opponents with just zaan + vate while facehugging them in mistform).

Tbh I hope ZOS nerfs this next patch (including all other forms of proc tanks).

Gross.

JayKwellen

Joy_Division wrote: »

The thing is, even if they share their build, you're more playing a combination of proc sets than a magplar. I'm not sure if that will make you feel better about the class, but speaking for myself, it doesn't.

@Joy_Division The fact that we've even reached a point in which a classes relevance and viability is measured solely in its ability to synergize with proc sets, and that there's even any discussion at all of doing proc set tier lists instead of or alongside class lists, is sad. Or as you more succinctly said, gross.

Thank god Xbox NA isn't quite as malignant as EU seems to be, but our time is likely limited as the metastasis are still spreading and likely inevitable. I've run into the perma mist form builds, the 5k+ regen builds, and now that I'm playing more BGs on my new low CP account, the health stacking proc stamdens. Fighting most of them isn't even fun, it's just feels like a chore.

No matter the disadvantage it puts me all I'll play my F tier StamDK without procs until zos either makes them mandatory or has to shut the servers down after successfully killing their own game.

At least there's a (very) small comfort in knowing that when I win its because I actually did so by playing my character and not just having my armor play the game for me. Well not really, but I tell myself there is at least.

HalvarIronfist

Stamdk main here.

PCNA, speaking. I RARELY see any other stamdks in high mmr. But that could just be me and the times I play. In Nocp, I wholeheartedly agree stamdk is a lower ranking. maybe B or C tier. Not ideal, but can be made to work fairly well.

CP, No difference to me as any other time. My SDK still rips and tears without issue.

erio

Seems off imo, maybe thats because im PC NA though.

PhoenixGrey

How did any magicka classes even make a PVP tier list.

I am yet to die to one and its been almost a year now. Maybe I m just that good or the list is bogus. Guess which one ?

Joinovikova

HankTwo wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Who are those mysterious A-Tier magicka necromancers solo roaming PC EU no cp cyro with more success than nightblades and magsorcs? I certainly havent met any, but maybe im just out of touch with the 1vX meta?

The rating of nocp solo magplar is also quite funny...

That list seems weird.

Two players you might know are Strepsels or Heresyall who both play Magnecro incredibly well in no cp, 1vX has seen some big changes with the high useage of procs and HP pools steadily going up.

The magplar rating is based on a "new" build that has started to spread which makes Magplar really strong in no cp

Can you tell me more about this "new" magplar build? I was looking for a reason to respec into magicka again after a long time

2 piece zaan + vate destro frontbar + 1 piece malacath + your health regen set of choice (orgnums, alessia, beekeeper, eternal vigor, ... a set like orgnum you can also easily backbar) + whatever combination of trainee, endurance and willpower you prefer (for max defense 3 piece endurance + 1 piece trainee).

Be a low stage vamp with infused cost reduction on the jewelry and maybe steed mundus for some extra mobility and even more health regen. Potion with health effect and maybe repentance on the backbar for high health regen multipliers.

Results in a build with around 3k - 5k health regen in no CP and a mistform that costs less than 100 mag per second (with rune focus, heavy armor passives and magicka steal such a build can generate much more mag in mistform than what it costs). Only real counters are negate and oblivion damage, other than that a build like this is pretty much unkillable in a 1v1 since well rounded PvP builds cant sustain the damage required to outdamage the health regen in mistform (as the attacker you can try to damage through the mistform but this will just result in you spending a *** ton of resources while the mistform build regains mag + stam and potentially even health, which opens you up for counter attacks).

Gameplay is pretty much apply zaan and vateshran and go full ham while zaan is connected, if that fails to kill your opponent camp in mistform (while ideally always keeping vate destro up) until zaan cd is down, then try again (if outnumbered you can even kill weaker opponents with just zaan + vate while facehugging them in mistform).

Tbh I hope ZOS nerfs this next patch (including all other forms of proc tanks).

there is no counterplay negate is super costly and have limited effect u can put noob out of mist form but one dodge roll and mist form is back.. source of oblivion damage are quite limited and even with them mist noob spammer can oiutheal... i am still curious why they destroy and remove any fun from the game with change mist form to super cheap toggle it was okay before... Some DEVS is probalby fan of twilgiht becaue they destroy pvp with overboosted WW and unkilable proc set malacath mist form spam...

wheem_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

I think people are beginning to see, that classes they always deemed so weak, are in fact not.

Setting aside the healer role, Magicka Warden was the overall worst PvP class in the game for quite some time, but Magicka Necromancer took that crown when Elsweyr came out. Since that time, Magicka Warden has also received some actual improvements, and was at least an "OK" class prior to the current meta really taking off. But once they could stack health with an HP-based heal and proc sets for damage, Magicka Warden became a potent class. I'd say it's still generally inferior to Stamina Warden, but it's quite strong nonetheless.

Dracane wrote: »

People seem to look mostly at passives when choosing which husk to use for a proc build. Since most notorious procs are all damage over time, necromancer is the next best choice for this. Offensively speaking.

If that's true, then I definitely have to scoff at the tier ranking. Is Magicka Necromancer really supposed to be "S Tier" in BGs, tied with 1 Stamina class and ahead of all the rest, just due to +15% DOT damage and one obviously broken, nerf-bait build? Seems like nonsense to me.

When it comes to builds that are "abusing" Mist Form, I've seen a grand total of 1 player in PC-NA Battlegrounds do that while actually having damage, and he was on a Mag DK. Frankly, I think that Mag DK was probably a better choice for what he was doing as well, since that class is hands down superior to Magicka Necromancer when not chilling in Mist Form.

If this build is being more abused on EU and/or consoles than it is on PC-NA, then I'm sure it can make Magicka Necromancer look a bit better than the class really is. But it should be pretty obvious that, as I said above, the build is total nerf-bait. Take that setup away and Magicka Necromancer should drop down the list quite a lot. Get rid of the proc meta itself, without other class changes happening at the same time, and they'll probably need to add a new tier down below "D" so that Magicka Necromancer has a place to fit in. Maybe label it the, "LOL" tier.

And if ZOS ruins Mist Form in the process of trying to do something about this cheese build, rather than just changing the interaction between the spell and cost reduction jewelry glyphs, many Magicka builds are going to fall even farther behind Stamina than they already are.

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

Stamdk main here.

PCNA, speaking. I RARELY see any other stamdks in high mmr. But that could just be me and the times I play. In Nocp, I wholeheartedly agree stamdk is a lower ranking. maybe B or C tier. Not ideal, but can be made to work fairly well.

CP, No difference to me as any other time. My SDK still rips and tears without issue.

I see an OK number Stamina DKs in BGs on PC-NA, and I think it's still a pretty strong class. It should also be in a really solid spot should the proc meta ever go away (which might also be why you have no trouble in CP-enabled PvP).

nqvarihs

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

People seem to look mostly at passives when choosing which husk to use for a proc build. Since most notorious procs are all damage over time, necromancer is the next best choice for this. Offensively speaking.

If that's true, then I definitely have to scoff at the tier ranking. Is Magicka Necromancer really supposed to be "S Tier" in BGs, tied with 1 Stamina class and ahead of all the rest, just due to +15% DOT damage and one obviously broken, nerf-bait build? Seems like nonsense to me.

"Offensively speaking.", if you could read. yes thats pretty much the reason, the 15% dot passive lets it abuses vate/brp destro and other fun & cool sets, giving it the offensive power it lacked until now. combine that with blastbones that still hits hard af even with 3k spell damage (same tooltip as dawnbreaker btw) and og clown form ultimate, and its anything but bad in terms of offense. and since you dont seem to know, its 'bg/smallscale' meaning you're with a group, and offense isn't the only thing that matters. since magcro has some decent group utility (cross heals and can also play around with boneyard and colossus), it has no reason to be anything lower than A or S on the list.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

If this build is being more abused on EU and/or consoles than it is on PC-NA, then I'm sure it can make Magicka Necromancer look a bit better than the class really is. But it should be pretty obvious that, as I said above, the build is total nerf-bait. Take that setup away and Magicka Necromancer should drop down the list quite a lot. Get rid of the proc meta itself, without other class changes happening at the same time, and they'll probably need to add a new tier down below "D" so that Magicka Necromancer has a place to fit in. Maybe label it the, "LOL" tier.

And if ZOS ruins Mist Form in the process of trying to do something about this cheese build, rather than just changing the interaction between the spell and cost reduction jewelry glyphs, many Magicka builds are going to fall even farther behind Stamina than they already are.

this is a 'meta' tier list. and whats the meta now? 22k hp with nma, clever alch, balorgh in medium but without malacath because nonono you cannot afford to waste this precious 20% critrate (that hits for at most +30%)? or tanky with procs?

its obviously the latter and trying to rank the classes as if 'tHe PrOc MeTa WaSnT a ThInG' is nonsense and a waste of everyone's time. just read again the OP, it has all the answers to your post:

The current patch is a perfect fit for how the year 2020 went, many things have been thrown around and trusted state of affairs got lost, magicka necromancer finds itself right below the top of a list that it has always finished last since it has been introduced.
Magicka Warden which has been seen as a mediocre spec is now on the same level as its stamina counterparts.
Knowledgeable players have stated how every single magicka class is better than their stamina brethren.

How could this happen with almost no direct class changes and a big rework that should have affected both sides more or less the same?
Well the answer has been plaguing PvP since Greymoor: Proc sets.
More notably the vateshran destruction staff along with some nerfs and bug fixes for stamina proc sets.

This has lead to the situation that the offensive toolkit of a class has way less effect on where it'll find itself on the list, what matters this patch is how your defensive toolkit looks like and how good you can stack HP and preferably benefit from that, like warden does with Arctic blast.
The effects on the meta are so powerful that we have actually considered making a proc set tier list rather than a class tier list, because procs are what define your viability this patch, your class is just the hollow envelope you fit onto them.

Dracane

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I think people are beginning to see, that classes they always deemed so weak, are in fact not.

Setting aside the healer role, Magicka Warden was the overall worst PvP class in the game for quite some time, but Magicka Necromancer took that crown when Elsweyr came out. Since that time, Magicka Warden has also received some actual improvements, and was at least an "OK" class prior to the current meta really taking off. But once they could stack health with an HP-based heal and proc sets for damage, Magicka Warden became a potent class. I'd say it's still generally inferior to Stamina Warden, but it's quite strong nonetheless.

Dracane wrote: »

People seem to look mostly at passives when choosing which husk to use for a proc build. Since most notorious procs are all damage over time, necromancer is the next best choice for this. Offensively speaking.

If that's true, then I definitely have to scoff at the tier ranking. Is Magicka Necromancer really supposed to be "S Tier" in BGs, tied with 1 Stamina class and ahead of all the rest, just due to +15% DOT damage and one obviously broken, nerf-bait build? Seems like nonsense to me.

When it comes to builds that are "abusing" Mist Form, I've seen a grand total of 1 player in PC-NA Battlegrounds do that while actually having damage, and he was on a Mag DK. Frankly, I think that Mag DK was probably a better choice for what he was doing as well, since that class is hands down superior to Magicka Necromancer when not chilling in Mist Form.

If this build is being more abused on EU and/or consoles than it is on PC-NA, then I'm sure it can make Magicka Necromancer look a bit better than the class really is. But it should be pretty obvious that, as I said above, the build is total nerf-bait. Take that setup away and Magicka Necromancer should drop down the list quite a lot. Get rid of the proc meta itself, without other class changes happening at the same time, and they'll probably need to add a new tier down below "D" so that Magicka Necromancer has a place to fit in. Maybe label it the, "LOL" tier.

And if ZOS ruins Mist Form in the process of trying to do something about this cheese build, rather than just changing the interaction between the spell and cost reduction jewelry glyphs, many Magicka builds are going to fall even farther behind Stamina than they already are.

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

Stamdk main here.

PCNA, speaking. I RARELY see any other stamdks in high mmr. But that could just be me and the times I play. In Nocp, I wholeheartedly agree stamdk is a lower ranking. maybe B or C tier. Not ideal, but can be made to work fairly well.

CP, No difference to me as any other time. My SDK still rips and tears without issue.

I see an OK number Stamina DKs in BGs on PC-NA, and I think it's still a pretty strong class. It should also be in a really solid spot should the proc meta ever go away (which might also be why you have no trouble in CP-enabled PvP).

I think I confused you a little. When I said that Necromancer is formidable and a good second choice for the current meta, then I mean this in combination with proc sets only. Both, stamina and magicka necromancer. I did not mean that mist form build templar does. Necromancer would not execute this nearly as well, for your sustain is worse.

Templar does it best because of rune focus and their cost reduction passive. Warden would be okay. Necromancer not so much, because the shock tether is not reliable enough.

Thraben

The list is already obsolete, at least on EU Ravenwatch, as I've seen the usual suspects starting to do the Vateshraan-Zaan-Mist-Vamplord - stuff on STAMINA classes. When even Stemplars use it, MagickaNecromancers are trash Tier again, relatively speaking, as 15% more DoT damage means nothing compared to what other classes can do with that setup.

techyeshic

I wonder if in stead of a proc tier listing; maybe do a health based of each class? Seems to be some of the proc builds have health as their highest stat

Joy_Division

JayKwellen wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The thing is, even if they share their build, you're more playing a combination of proc sets than a magplar. I'm not sure if that will make you feel better about the class, but speaking for myself, it doesn't.

@Joy_Division The fact that we've even reached a point in which a classes relevance and viability is measured solely in its ability to synergize with proc sets, and that there's even any discussion at all of doing proc set tier lists instead of or alongside class lists, is sad. Or as you more succinctly said, gross.

Thank god Xbox NA isn't quite as malignant as EU seems to be, but our time is likely limited as the metastasis are still spreading and likely inevitable. I've run into the perma mist form builds, the 5k+ regen builds, and now that I'm playing more BGs on my new low CP account, the health stacking proc stamdens. Fighting most of them isn't even fun, it's just feels like a chore.

No matter the disadvantage it puts me all I'll play my F tier StamDK without procs until zos either makes them mandatory or has to shut the servers down after successfully killing their own game.

At least there's a (very) small comfort in knowing that when I win its because I actually did so by playing my character and not just having my armor play the game for me. Well not really, but I tell myself there is at least.

I hear you. I remember way back when ZOS first introduced Monster proc sets I defended them because at that point in the game, I felt the concept of a proc set was done correctly: a player could only have a single good one (there weren't many 5 piece proc sets then and the ones that did exist were garbage), it was a reward for running content, they always took up the same gear spots so players had to choose one or the other rather than using multiple, and that one proc set allowed players to round out builds beyond what their class was capable of doing (back then, the classes weren't as homogenized). In short, there was some thought put into them and they made an interesting addition to the game.

I'd imagine the game is probably confusing as heck for someone who took a break and came back because so many proc sets are so strong and just pour out thousands of damage without ever communicating to players how or why they are getting hit. Whenever the thews of the harbinger was released, I wasn't playing ESO or paying attention to the forums. When I first came back to cyrodiil there was this huge fight in front of Nickel and I set up a combo on this Warden by the front porch on my sorc. Within 3 seconds I was dead without ever seeing any visual information from the game aside from my hit point bar rapidly declining. And not being able to cast a shield because of terrible lag. Saw 5 Thews on my death recap.

I had to do a google search to see what this was. And then I thought to myself, wait, wasn't the reason ZOS took away blinding flashes because the game did not communicate to players what the skill was actually doing? At least with blinding flashes, the animation was very unmistakable, it did not effect people 30 meters away, and was not some obscure addition in a DLC. But ZOS has allowed proc sets to break the very standards they have admitted to trying to balance PvP around (multiple hits on same global cooldown, trivial resource management, commitment to "class identity," etc).

wheem_ESO

nqvarihs wrote: »

"Offensively speaking.", if you could read. yes thats pretty much the reason, the 15% dot passive lets it abuses vate/brp destro and other fun & cool sets, giving it the offensive power it lacked until now. combine that with blastbones that still hits hard af even with 3k spell damage (same tooltip as dawnbreaker btw) and og clown form ultimate, and its anything but bad in terms of offense. and since you dont seem to know, its 'bg/smallscale' meaning you're with a group, and offense isn't the only thing that matters. since magcro has some decent group utility (cross heals and can also play around with boneyard and colossus), it has no reason to be anything lower than A or S on the list.

First of all, if the OP is referring solely to premade-vs-premade-vs-premade Battlegrounds games when mentioning BGs, he should make that more clear. Secondly, I don't consider Magicka Necromancer in an S or A tier even under those circumstances, for a variety of reasons. As I said before, perhaps there are some super secret builds permeating EU and/or consoles that make things drastically different than they are on PC-NA, and I'm more than willing to change my mind if shown actual hard evidence.

I can count the number of Magicka Necromancers that I regularly see in PC-NA BGs on one hand. At least one of them has a DOT build that's quite similar to one of the builds that I use off-and-on, and yes, the overall damage done is quite high. However, it's still less deadly than what can be achieved by many other builds, especially Stamina, while simultaneously being less mobile and easier to kill. The off-healing also isn't that strong when you're running multiple proc sets and have weak spell damage.

The +15% DOT damage passive is also less meaningful than some people seem to think it is. It's not nothing, of course, but Vateshran/BRP Destruction Staves aren't being carried by one class passive, nor do the final damage numbers really change all that much when you're eating that damage from say...a Mag DK or Mag Warden instead of a Mag Necro. And those other classes have much better toolkits outside of the proc sets.

nqvarihs wrote: »

this is a 'meta' tier list. and whats the meta now? 22k hp with nma, clever alch, balorgh in medium but without malacath because nonono you cannot afford to waste this precious 20% critrate (that hits for at most +30%)? or tanky with procs?

its obviously the latter and trying to rank the classes as if 'tHe PrOc MeTa WaSnT a ThInG' is nonsense and a waste of everyone's time. just read again the OP, it has all the answers to your post:

Some classes are better suited to a "tanky with procs" meta than others are, and Magicka Necromancers are nothing special in this regard. The self/group healing isn't nearly as good as it is on some other classes, and +15% DOT damage, a fairly unreliable Blastbones, and lack of good ultimates (other than Goliath Form in certain situations) don't really make up for the differences in class toolkits. There are numerous classes that should be ranked ahead of it, for varying reasons. As a rule, what kills people in all-premade games is catching them out of position + burst, not spamming DOTs with a +15% damage modifier.

It's also wrong to talk about the Vateshran Destruction Staff as though it's a Magicka-only thing; I've seen nearly as many Stamina builds running it as I have Magicka ones. The ability is free to cast, and debuffs physical resistance just as much as it does magic resist. That said, if we're to assume that the OP is speaking strictly of premade-vs-premade-vs-premade games in BGs, I'm not sure that the Vateshran Destruction Staff really deserves very much attention at all. It's hard to use effectively when you're spending so much time out of range, near LOS, and in need of heavy burst in what typically amount to hit-and-run fights. The Vateshran 2h is far better for Stam builds under these circumstances than the Destruction Staff is for anyone.

Proper comboing of a Vateshran 2h "medium attack" with Dawnbreaker and off-GCD damage abilities (especially ones with more reliable timing than Blastbones, like Shalks or Crystal Weapon) is much more likely to actually score kills.

Weesacs

Joy_Division wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The thing is, even if they share their build, you're more playing a combination of proc sets than a magplar. I'm not sure if that will make you feel better about the class, but speaking for myself, it doesn't.

@Joy_Division The fact that we've even reached a point in which a classes relevance and viability is measured solely in its ability to synergize with proc sets, and that there's even any discussion at all of doing proc set tier lists instead of or alongside class lists, is sad. Or as you more succinctly said, gross.

Thank god Xbox NA isn't quite as malignant as EU seems to be, but our time is likely limited as the metastasis are still spreading and likely inevitable. I've run into the perma mist form builds, the 5k+ regen builds, and now that I'm playing more BGs on my new low CP account, the health stacking proc stamdens. Fighting most of them isn't even fun, it's just feels like a chore.

No matter the disadvantage it puts me all I'll play my F tier StamDK without procs until zos either makes them mandatory or has to shut the servers down after successfully killing their own game.

At least there's a (very) small comfort in knowing that when I win its because I actually did so by playing my character and not just having my armor play the game for me. Well not really, but I tell myself there is at least.

I hear you. I remember way back when ZOS first introduced Monster proc sets I defended them because at that point in the game, I felt the concept of a proc set was done correctly: a player could only have a single good one (there weren't many 5 piece proc sets then and the ones that did exist were garbage), it was a reward for running content, they always took up the same gear spots so players had to choose one or the other rather than using multiple, and that one proc set allowed players to round out builds beyond what their class was capable of doing (back then, the classes weren't as homogenized). In short, there was some thought put into them and they made an interesting addition to the game.

I'd imagine the game is probably confusing as heck for someone who took a break and came back because so many proc sets are so strong and just pour out thousands of damage without ever communicating to players how or why they are getting hit. Whenever the thews of the harbinger was released, I wasn't playing ESO or paying attention to the forums. When I first came back to cyrodiil there was this huge fight in front of Nickel and I set up a combo on this Warden by the front porch on my sorc. Within 3 seconds I was dead without ever seeing any visual information from the game aside from my hit point bar rapidly declining. And not being able to cast a shield because of terrible lag. Saw 5 Thews on my death recap.

I had to do a google search to see what this was. And then I thought to myself, wait, wasn't the reason ZOS took away blinding flashes because the game did not communicate to players what the skill was actually doing? At least with blinding flashes, the animation was very unmistakable, it did not effect people 30 meters away, and was not some obscure addition in a DLC. But ZOS has allowed proc sets to break the very standards they have admitted to trying to balance PvP around (multiple hits on same global cooldown, trivial resource management, commitment to "class identity," etc).

I agree. Without actually removing proc sets from the game, one way I can see there being any control over this proc set meta is to have actual skills for each proc set on your skill bar. This would mean that to activate the set skill, instead if it being a proc, you would need to activate it as a skill on your skill bar. This would obviously mean removing a skill for the proc set skill ... would that be worth it? Well that's up to the player. If you want a proc set, then you'll have to remove a skill on your bar and then actively press it on your skill bar.

Not sure how this would work in reality but would maybe add more skill play to PvP and would most definitely remove the proc meta.

Essentially if you want to run three proc sets then you would need to replace three skills from your bar for each proc set skill.

HankTwo

Joinovikova wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Who are those mysterious A-Tier magicka necromancers solo roaming PC EU no cp cyro with more success than nightblades and magsorcs? I certainly havent met any, but maybe im just out of touch with the 1vX meta?

The rating of nocp solo magplar is also quite funny...

That list seems weird.

Two players you might know are Strepsels or Heresyall who both play Magnecro incredibly well in no cp, 1vX has seen some big changes with the high useage of procs and HP pools steadily going up.

The magplar rating is based on a "new" build that has started to spread which makes Magplar really strong in no cp

Can you tell me more about this "new" magplar build? I was looking for a reason to respec into magicka again after a long time

2 piece zaan + vate destro frontbar + 1 piece malacath + your health regen set of choice (orgnums, alessia, beekeeper, eternal vigor, ... a set like orgnum you can also easily backbar) + whatever combination of trainee, endurance and willpower you prefer (for max defense 3 piece endurance + 1 piece trainee).

Be a low stage vamp with infused cost reduction on the jewelry and maybe steed mundus for some extra mobility and even more health regen. Potion with health effect and maybe repentance on the backbar for high health regen multipliers.

Results in a build with around 3k - 5k health regen in no CP and a mistform that costs less than 100 mag per second (with rune focus, heavy armor passives and magicka steal such a build can generate much more mag in mistform than what it costs). Only real counters are negate and oblivion damage, other than that a build like this is pretty much unkillable in a 1v1 since well rounded PvP builds cant sustain the damage required to outdamage the health regen in mistform (as the attacker you can try to damage through the mistform but this will just result in you spending a *** ton of resources while the mistform build regains mag + stam and potentially even health, which opens you up for counter attacks).

Gameplay is pretty much apply zaan and vateshran and go full ham while zaan is connected, if that fails to kill your opponent camp in mistform (while ideally always keeping vate destro up) until zaan cd is down, then try again (if outnumbered you can even kill weaker opponents with just zaan + vate while facehugging them in mistform).

Tbh I hope ZOS nerfs this next patch (including all other forms of proc tanks).

there is no counterplay negate is super costly and have limited effect u can put noob out of mist form but one dodge roll and mist form is back.. source of oblivion damage are quite limited and even with them mist noob spammer can oiutheal... i am still curious why they destroy and remove any fun from the game with change mist form to super cheap toggle it was okay before... Some DEVS is probalby fan of twilgiht becaue they destroy pvp with overboosted WW and unkilable proc set malacath mist form spam...

Negate is more of a counter in group vs group fights like bgs, since your team mates can follow up the negate with strong ults themselves. But yeah, in a 1v1 you would need to get really lucky with a curse + fury + negate + frag combo to finish such a mistform build off. If they pay attention or know that their opponent has negate slotted they can as you said just counter the negate by an immediate dodge roll and then mistform again.

katorga

Proc's are not goin anywhere. The majority must love them, and ZOS has been doubling and tripling down on them for several releases now. I would not get your hopes up they get nerfed.

I would expect to see more "action-based" proc sets like Vateshran 2H or Destro....player has to perform an action like block or target and use ability to get the proc. I don't expect them to go back and nerf the old "on damage done" or "on damage taken" proc sets, but they may slow the introduction of new ones.

They might to a meaningless token nerf to Crimson or something like they did with Sheer Venom.

Man, it was a terrible idea to replace % RNG procs with on demand procs.

x48rph

It's pretty telling that the two 'pay to play' classes continue to dominate the top of the rankings patch after patch even after so many changes, tweaks, 'balance' passes, ect... All they manage to do over the past two years is suck all the uniqueness out of the other classes without really ever fixing or balancing anything.

Waffennacht

As for proc sets; I almost guarantee that they'll be changed piece meal style.
Like sheer; a few sets at a time will be changed as they get older.

To the subject at hand; if it's purely based on Proc sets - then all classes are just about equal.

Templar has above mentioned sustain etc combined with mist form
Warden, Sorc, and DK all have health based heals; each with other individual forms of survival.
Necro has good synergy (but so does warden)

NB cant take the proc setup advantage as well - however it does have a solid hard counter to Zaan and Vate, cut those from proc set builds they have a hell of a time killing (varying by build of course)

It should be closer to a straight line if talking procs.


Remove the proc builds and the list changes dramatically.
Also, if a successful counter becomes popular the whole thing will change rapidly

FrancisCrawford

How/why does necro rate so high in sustain?

relentless_turnip

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

How/why does necro rate so high in sustain?

I think because it has high sustain... Stamcro is 2.1k with no race passives or investement, cp or otherwise. Just necro passives and a potion.

wheem_ESO

relentless_turnip wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

How/why does necro rate so high in sustain?

I think because it has high sustain... Stamcro is 2.1k with no race passives or investement, cp or otherwise. Just necro passives and a potion.

It's another area where Stamina Necromancer gets an advantage over Magicka, at least in regards to primary resource. For Magicka builds, the 200 regen is basically just a partial return on the cost of the skill - less so if you use Mist Form or refresh the pet early. And since Mystic Siphon is pretty worthless in PvP, it means that Magicka Necromancer's sustain is essentially just the same baseline as everyone else. Overall ability cost will be cheaper than it is on a Mag DK, but having played Magicka Warden, Templar, and Sorcerer a good bit in the past, Magicka Necromancer's sustain feels noticeably worse than all 3 of those classes.

Ariades_swe

Thraben wrote: »

The list is already obsolete, at least on EU Ravenwatch, as I've seen the usual suspects starting to do the Vateshraan-Zaan-Mist-Vamplord - stuff on STAMINA classes. When even Stemplars use it, MagickaNecromancers are trash Tier again, relatively speaking, as 15% more DoT damage means nothing compared to what other classes can do with that setup.

This.
With the changes to breach so it affects all resistances and how light and heavy attacks now scale of highest stats vateshraan frost is extremely good on random meta stam class.

raasdal

Mistform + 4k healthregen is fun. The whispers...

Dracane

wheem_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

How/why does necro rate so high in sustain?

I think because it has high sustain... Stamcro is 2.1k with no race passives or investement, cp or otherwise. Just necro passives and a potion.

It's another area where Stamina Necromancer gets an advantage over Magicka, at least in regards to primary resource. For Magicka builds, the 200 regen is basically just a partial return on the cost of the skill - less so if you use Mist Form or refresh the pet early. And since Mystic Siphon is pretty worthless in PvP, it means that Magicka Necromancer's sustain is essentially just the same baseline as everyone else. Overall ability cost will be cheaper than it is on a Mag DK, but having played Magicka Warden, Templar, and Sorcerer a good bit in the past, Magicka Necromancer's sustain feels noticeably worse than all 3 of those classes.

I was quite surprised to read in the OP, that the good players seem to agree that all magicka classes are better than their stamina counterparts. I thought it is widely thought, that stamina in general usually outperforms and counters magicka in pvp. Now obviously, the impresison of the average forum goer and player is bound to differ from that of people with lots of experience and insight. Yet the masses can not be so wrong, can they?

This is certainly the first instance in a long time, that I read this. Especially since its main argument, Vateshran, is used by stamina builds just the same. Stamina has the advantage of having many proc sets to choose from. Magicka essentially has Zaan, Vateshran and Oblivion's Foe.

Other than templar, I do not find any of the magicka classes more formidable than their stamina counterparts. Both from fighting against every magicka and stamina spec every day as well as from what me and my partner find by what we tried ourselves. Although he finds magicka warden better than stamina. I think Vateshran's impact is slightly overestimated.

katorga

Waffennacht wrote: »

As for proc sets; I almost guarantee that they'll be changed piece meal style.
Like sheer; a few sets at a time will be changed as they get older.

I have a hard time agreeing with that. ZOS did a blanket buff of old proc sets making almost all of them as good as the newer sets in terms of surety of proc'ing and damage. Once the uproar started they nerfed one of them (two if you count Unleashed, nerfed during PTS). They are releasing new ones faster than they are nerfing.