Dwemer as a new race in a future chapter.

itscompton

Just a reminder for those saying No and Never because of lore: the same was said about having dragons in the game once upon a time.
If it will sell expansions and make money they'll figure out a way to work it into the cannon.

ArchMikem

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

By the time of ESO, the dwemer were extinct for about 2800 years. What possible enclave are you talking about?

It's not exactly easy to determine if a group of deep "earth", cave dwelling species is extinct. That is a very easy thing to explain away in lore, outside of the fact the lore is very loose on Dwemer to start with.

The other person was a bit wrong to use the word "extinct" when regarding the Dwemer. The Lore simply states every single Dwemer after the Battle of Red Mountain vanished from Nirn. From existence possibly. I even remember seeing a post talking about a Dwemer Ruin delve in TES:V where there were piles of ash scattered in places like hallways, chairs, beds etc. Whatever happened to them happened to every member of the Dwemer Race in the Mundus. That one Dwemer that appears in TES:III supposedly escaped that fate because he was within Oblivion at the time, somehow out of reach of the cause.

Long story short, there are no Dwemer on Nirn, period. You have better chances asking for a Lilmothiit character.

This turned into one helluva Lore thread.

SidraWillowsky

nukk3r wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

They would be dumb to do this on this game. If the Dwemer ever do return it would have to be in an epic storyline on a main Elder Scrolls title.

Are you implying the largest TES game in the entire series with more lore, quests and content then everyother TES game combined is somehow not a main Elder Scrolls title?

Yes.

Because it's not.

Would you compare ESO to TES Travels games?

No, it's way more than that. I don't actually know much about the Travels games, or the Legends card games- do the Travels games add much to the lore? I actually just learned of their existence and watched a friend stream one, but from what I saw they're kind of just dinky little mobile games. Redguard is a step up, but IMO Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim -and any future single-player numbered installments- should be the only games that introduce massive lore changes like OP is wanting. The world-building and major, overarching stories and lore would be hard to justify in ESO because of its place in the TES timeline and how big of a role the lore plays in the numbered, single-player instalments.

ESO has been fantastic in terms of how it builds on existing lore without breaking anything in the later games. For example, I really, really love what they did with Sotha Sil in ESO. That definitely expanded the lore considerably and really knocked it out of the park with his characterization. That said, what they added didn't change anything about him in TES III. If you look at player-created quest mods for Morrowind and sometimes Skyrim that were created prior to ESO's Sotha Sil, you'll see that the way that the mod authors characterize him is basically exactly how ESO does. I don't think that ESO ripped these people off; I think that Sil's personality was fleshed-out just enough in TES III to provide a nice character outline, if that makes sense. The additions to Vivec's personality/backstory in ESO are similar- new material, but nothing that breaks TES III.

This isn't the same for the Dwemer. There is no way to introduce them in ESO in any sort of capacity that wouldn't dramatically break the quests and lore in Morrowind and Skyrim (I've not played Oblivion enough to know whether there are any Dwemer ruins/quests in TES IV) and turn the Dwemer lore in general on its head.

YES, I get that "lore is wat you make it" and everything, but there is zero good reason to break things THIS much for the sake of that. The quotes that OP posted above are actually better arguments in favor of their creating their own Dwemer character and story in game vs the devs adding content that's going to break things.

Olauron

itscompton wrote: »

Just a reminder for those saying No and Never because of lore: the same was said about having dragons in the game once upon a time.
If it will sell expansions and make money they'll figure out a way to work it into the cannon.

That doesn't make dragons less ridiculous. That doesn't make known and inhabited Blackreach less ridiculous. That doesn't make imperial Seyda Need in 2nd era less ridiculous. But the thing is, the fewer ridiculous things in ESO, the better.

haelene

For all of the reasons already stated - absolutely not. Ignoring the fact that the type of dwarves you want don't exist in tes at all (they are not the short aggressive, battleaxe weilding tolkinien dwarves you crave, they are very different) - you can make your own and rp to your hearts delight already and then no one else has to deal with the massive lore breaking consequences.

Vlad9425

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

They would be dumb to do this on this game. If the Dwemer ever do return it would have to be in an epic storyline on a main Elder Scrolls title.

Are you implying the largest TES game in the entire series with more lore, quests and content then everyother TES game combined is somehow not a main Elder Scrolls title?

I mean it’s fairly common knowledge that this isn’t a main Elder Scrolls title? It’s part of the TES universe yes just like TES legends but the last main TES title was Skyrim.

Pixiepumpkin

lots of mean stuff in this thread. the guy just wants to play a dwarf and it seems like everyone is bean real mean 4 no reason

Thevampirenight

Okay here is the thing and I'm sure there are others here that have mentioned this. There is a lore reason why they can never be a playable race.
Unless this game was some point in the early first era. Which it isn't then there is a good reason why its not happening.
However that does not mean there can't be a cosplay of one.
Now this guy, is a bosmer, and an npc. But he kinda feels dwemeri to me with the beard and all you can make a character that looks somewhat like this with beard and all and then make him taller.


Since I've always been of the opinion they are a shorter race but taller then bosmer. So you can make it at the tallest setting. Eso kind of shows them being shorter similar to bosmer with their ghosts. So bosmer would be what you use. Then use a Dwemer armor motif/outfit style. Then maybe a more grayish skin tone since they might have had grayish skin. I don't know on that one. Then maybe if you wanted a more dwarfish look making that Bosmer be a bit heavy set.
Now that would give you a cosplay of Dwemer.

Then if you wanted a race that can craft and invent then you could play an Orc which basically is the closet you can get with a more Dwarfish archtype from other fantasy's. Even an Orc, in Tes was able to create a version of the Printing press. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Urbek
So you can make like an Orcish crafter, more play an inventor type.

So there is many ways to get that Tes dwarf feel.
But the thing is the Dwemer basically are all gone except one and several undead ghost spirits in Vvardenfell that is all that remains of the Dwemer.

Many possibilities for their disappearance that but the theory I subscribe too was they caused a dragonbreak that basically wiped them out several times over with various outcomes.
Whatever version or theory you support on the disappearance. The disappearance is why they can't be playable. It would just break the lore, Bethesda would never allow it.
There is also one other thing too, we do get bits of new Dwemer lore and we did get that in the Reach even. So more lore is fine, its just them being playable is not. Eso has given us some new lore on the Dwemer and its been interesting.

BlueRaven

Raideen wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

https://youtu.be/surgkXcjPIU

This should help with some context. Three lore content providers discuss dwemmer lore. And they talk about their size right off the bat.

"So I don't have to tell you guys this, but the lore – maybe some of your readers will know this – but the lore in Elder Scrolls is never definitive, it's always told through the eyes of people that live in the world, which gives developers – not just us, but everyone that works on Elder Scrolls – certain leeway to kind of find what that person meant when they were telling the story."
- Matt Firor, UESP's PAX 2018 Interview.

"I think people want the answers, always, like, 'What is Truth?'—but what is Truth in the history of Earth? Truth is often written by the winners, and that there are always different perspectives on what happened in history, and so we do take that approach with the lore in Elder Scrolls, where all perspectives can be correct. But which one is more correct? That's why we get in these debates over, 'Hey, what is Truth?' And so, for us, it's sort of a priority. The truth in Elder Scrolls, primarily, is what you saw on the screen. Like, you can read a thousand books and say, 'There are no dragons,' and if a dragon comes up on the screen, well, you saw it happen in a game."
- Todd Howard, BethesdaGameDays Day 1, 2019, timestamp: 2:18:19 - 2:18:57.

"... people want to know truth, but even my perspective is one version of truth of what happened in the history of Elder Scrolls and so forth."
""What's the order of priority?" If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third."
- Todd Howard, UESP's PAX East 2019 Interview.

"And what your character does, and says, and believes, becomes part of that world. For you, and whoever else shares the experience, what happened is now part of the lore. The non-player characters are all there, ready to share their stories with you, but it’s you who makes those stories live, because your character has agency and meaningful choices where the NPCs do not. Moreover, what your character does persists for you, and the stories you’ve told and the experiences you’ve shared with your friends live on in your own memories. You just added to the history of Tamriel.""
- A farewell letter from Loremaster Lawrence Schick to the ESO community, ESO official site, 2019.

"As the Loremaster, he had ample opportunity to force his authorial will on the material, but he didn't. He urged us all to give the lore some breathing room — to keep things open to interpretation. It's very good advice, and I plan on following it!"
- Leamon Tuttle Loremaster 2019 Interview regarding Lawrence Schick and TES lore.

Those are a lot of quotes that don’t really support bringing back a race that is gone. Those are referring to why the EXACT reasons things happen are vague.

ESO HAS to work with the other games. The other games exist in ESO’s future. Those other games have very specific lore about the dwemer being gone. But none of them spell out exactly WHY they are gone, because the lore books are written in the perspective of their fictional authors.

Wolfpaw

LadyAstrum wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

I love playing small characters in games (sadly my GF does not share my passion for smaller races). I absolutely love the Dwemer aesthetic be it the older darker stone, or the newer white/gold style. Dwemer are imo the coolest race in the Elder Scrolls universe.

Their lore, be it mysterious and not documented in it's entirety, could easily be worked into ESO as it takes place 740+ years before Morrowind. There is no reason in that time that a small Dwemer enclave is discovered after an earthquake in Vvardenfell (tons of potential for a yearly chapter) introducing dwemer as a playable race, an "engineer" as a class, underground environments to explore without taking up map space for future chapters, and all the other goodness that comes with Dwemer. The end of ESO could "Wrap up" the dwemer introduction so that there is no continuity loss into morrowind.

I created a Dwemer Automaton to pay homage to Dwemer, but it would be amazing to see Dwemer fleshed out a bit more lore wise even if its for a brief period.

Anyway, I love Dwemer so just sharing my thoughts.

I think the Dwemer are interesting as well and it would be nice to see some more/new content surrounding their lore. They are a fascinating people and their architecture is impressive, and as you say, it would be nice to see them fleshed out in a more tangible way. I love their art style and technical creations. It's possible/very likely it'll never happen in this game, but there's a new Lord of the Rings MMO on the horizon, and that game might supply the small characters you're looking for. I don't say this to be negative about ESO, but they do remind of me Tolkien's dwarves a little, even down to the description in the book snippet you linked with their sizes as large children and bearded women.

Really looking forward to this, beta 2023!

Ratzkifal

itscompton wrote: »

Just a reminder for those saying No and Never because of lore: the same was said about having dragons in the game once upon a time.
If it will sell expansions and make money they'll figure out a way to work it into the cannon.

Except that it wasn't. There was lore support for dragons. Nahfahlaar has been recruited to Tiber Septim's army and we knew that Reman and the Blades weren't able to complete their quest to get dragons extinct by their own internal documents. So there definitely were dragons around in the time between Reman and TES5

However the Dwemer lore is something entirely different to that. Although we had Dwemer ghosts in TES3, Skyrim had none and ESO even went a step further telling us that even necromancy does not work to bring back Dwemer ghosts, which is kind of a retcon of old lore, which I don't think they would have done if the completeness of their disappearance wasn't more important to them than the continuity. Whatever happened to the Dwemer, it happened to all of them at the same time all over Nirn.

The only way we will ever see Dwemer in ESO is either through timetravel backwards in time, travel to a parallel universe where they never disappeared or by meeting someone like Yagrum Bagarn who avoided getting Thanos'ed by being in an outer realm of Oblivion. I just want to mention that we've been to an outer realm of Oblivion now... So who knows.

At the end of the day, if we ever get to see the Dwemer again, even if we straight-up figure out the mystery of their disappearance, whatever answer we get must leave only more mystery behind, otherwise the Dwemer will lose what makes them cool - the mystery.

itscompton

Olauron wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Just a reminder for those saying No and Never because of lore: the same was said about having dragons in the game once upon a time.
If it will sell expansions and make money they'll figure out a way to work it into the cannon.

That doesn't make dragons less ridiculous. That doesn't make known and inhabited Blackreach less ridiculous. That doesn't make imperial Seyda Need in 2nd era less ridiculous. But the thing is, the fewer ridiculous things in ESO, the better.

Yet you give plenty of examples why I'm right. They respect the lore unless it gets in the way of something they want to do that will make them money, in which case they invent a reason for it.
Not saying it's right or wrong, just that's the reality of how it works.

ealdwin

ArchMikem wrote: »

Long story short, there are no Dwemer on Nirn, period. You have better chances asking for a Lilmothiit character.

There are a number of races that used to be, that would make for better and more lore-friendly "lost enclave" type of stories w/ that race being added.

Lilmothiit, Snow-Elf, Kothringi... all races that used to exist, but have since either died off or were warped beyond recognition. All races that still could exist in some yet unknown enclave. As others have mentioned, there is no possibility of a hidden enclave of Dwemer on Nirn. They simply do not exist at all. At least, confirmable not on Nirn.

Not to mention the races we have seen that would also be good candidates for a new race—the Naga, the Maomer, other Furstocks, or Reachmen. Races that could be included with very little lore breaking at all.

itscompton

Ratzkifal wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Just a reminder for those saying No and Never because of lore: the same was said about having dragons in the game once upon a time.
If it will sell expansions and make money they'll figure out a way to work it into the cannon.

Except that it wasn't. There was lore support for dragons. Nahfahlaar has been recruited to Tiber Septim's army and we knew that Reman and the Blades weren't able to complete their quest to get dragons extinct by their own internal documents. So there definitely were dragons around in the time between Reman and TES5

However the Dwemer lore is something entirely different to that. Although we had Dwemer ghosts in TES3, Skyrim had none and ESO even went a step further telling us that even necromancy does not work to bring back Dwemer ghosts, which is kind of a retcon of old lore, which I don't think they would have done if the completeness of their disappearance wasn't more important to them than the continuity. Whatever happened to the Dwemer, it happened to all of them at the same time all over Nirn.

The only way we will ever see Dwemer in ESO is either through timetravel backwards in time, travel to a parallel universe where they never disappeared or by meeting someone like Yagrum Bagarn who avoided getting Thanos'ed by being in an outer realm of Oblivion. I just want to mention that we've been to an outer realm of Oblivion now... So who knows.

At the end of the day, if we ever get to see the Dwemer again, even if we straight-up figure out the mystery of their disappearance, whatever answer we get must leave only more mystery behind, otherwise the Dwemer will lose what makes them cool - the mystery.

By your own admission if they think it's important they are not afraid to retcon lore to fit their priorities. And while it would upset purists I don't think you can deny a chapter that revealed the fate of the Dwemer would be a huge success in terms of sales.
That said I don't think they'd ever be a playable race but I can certainly see them creating a story for a chapter that includes time travel or as OP stated even finding a hidden enclave that only the Protagonist character knows of and never reveals to anyone else. And if the knowledge is never recorded it's like it never happened for anyone else in Tamriel and lore stays intact.

Ratzkifal

itscompton wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Just a reminder for those saying No and Never because of lore: the same was said about having dragons in the game once upon a time.
If it will sell expansions and make money they'll figure out a way to work it into the cannon.

Except that it wasn't. There was lore support for dragons. Nahfahlaar has been recruited to Tiber Septim's army and we knew that Reman and the Blades weren't able to complete their quest to get dragons extinct by their own internal documents. So there definitely were dragons around in the time between Reman and TES5

However the Dwemer lore is something entirely different to that. Although we had Dwemer ghosts in TES3, Skyrim had none and ESO even went a step further telling us that even necromancy does not work to bring back Dwemer ghosts, which is kind of a retcon of old lore, which I don't think they would have done if the completeness of their disappearance wasn't more important to them than the continuity. Whatever happened to the Dwemer, it happened to all of them at the same time all over Nirn.

The only way we will ever see Dwemer in ESO is either through timetravel backwards in time, travel to a parallel universe where they never disappeared or by meeting someone like Yagrum Bagarn who avoided getting Thanos'ed by being in an outer realm of Oblivion. I just want to mention that we've been to an outer realm of Oblivion now... So who knows.

At the end of the day, if we ever get to see the Dwemer again, even if we straight-up figure out the mystery of their disappearance, whatever answer we get must leave only more mystery behind, otherwise the Dwemer will lose what makes them cool - the mystery.

By your own admission if they think it's important they are not afraid to retcon lore to fit their priorities. And while it would upset purists I don't think you can deny a chapter that revealed the fate of the Dwemer would be a huge success in terms of sales.
That said I don't think they'd ever be a playable race but I can certainly see them creating a story for a chapter that includes time travel or as OP stated even finding a hidden enclave that only the Protagonist character knows of and never reveals to anyone else. And if the knowledge is never recorded it's like it never happened for anyone else in Tamriel and lore stays intact.

They are not afraid to retcon, yes, but you need to get a sense of scale here. It's one thing to retcon ghosts, who are enemies without lore or voicelines that could easily be replaced by random ghosts that just went to haunt the empty dwemer ruins. That's a small scale retcon. It's an entirely different thing to retcon something everyone has been talking about for the last 25 years, with multiple competing theories and everyone in the community kind of having their eyes on the topic at least to some degree. You can't just retcon something like that without consequences. Stuff like that is what killed modern Star Wars.

What you can do is adding more snippets of information to the puzzle, like we got in Blackreach's public dungeon. The Dwemer definitely need get a little bit more fleshed out and doing that is kind of difficult if we want to preserve the mystery of their disappearance, which we should.
And I trust that ZOS knows this too because of the way they handled the Psijic Order.
When they let us join the Psijics they were careful to avoid revealing the mystery of where their island had gone too, so they must realize how important these mysteries are to the franchise. That means that whatever they think up for the Dwemer, they will be playing by the rules set by the current lore around them, avoiding retcons like the plague. And that means the Dwemer are either dead, not in our plane of existence, or timetravelled to the future, and we certainly won't get to play them nor talk to an NPC who is still integrated into Dwemer society (should it even still exist). We might get some Dwemer cosmetics and glimpses of them though.

BlueRaven

ealdwin wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Long story short, there are no Dwemer on Nirn, period. You have better chances asking for a Lilmothiit character.

There are a number of races that used to be, that would make for better and more lore-friendly "lost enclave" type of stories w/ that race being added.

Lilmothiit, Snow-Elf, Kothringi... all races that used to exist, but have since either died off or were warped beyond recognition. All races that still could exist in some yet unknown enclave. As others have mentioned, there is no possibility of a hidden enclave of Dwemer on Nirn. They simply do not exist at all. At least, confirmable not on Nirn.

Not to mention the races we have seen that would also be good candidates for a new race—the Naga, the Maomer, other Furstocks, or Reachmen. Races that could be included with very little lore breaking at all.

The Falmer got mostly wiped out due to a genoside, THEN a poisoning (if the lore sources are correct). That is much different then what happened to the dwemer. As described by Vivec;

"...Dwemeri high priest Kagrenac then revealed that which he had built in the image of Vivec. It was a walking star, which burnt the armies of the Triune and destroyed the heartland of Veloth, creating the Inner Sea.

Each of the aspects of the ALMSIVI then rose up together, combining as one, and showed the world the sixth path. Ayem took from the star its fire, Seht took from it its mystery, and Vehk took from it its feet, which had been constructed before the gift of Molag Bal and destroyed in the manner of truth: by a great hammering. When the soul of the Dwemer could walk no more, they were removed from this world.

Resdaynia was no more. It had been redeemed of all the iniquities of the foolish. The ALMSIVI drew nets from the Beginning Place and captured the ash of Red Mountain, which they knew was the Blight of the Dwemer and that would serve only to infect the whole of the middle world, and ate it. ALTADOON DUNMERI! ..."

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_36

TLDR: ALL of the Dwemer on Nirn were Thanos snapped out of existence.


Now Vivec may not be the most reliable of sources, but it lines up reasonably well with everything we know about what happened.

Please, if you are here thinking it would be a "cool idea" about why we should get them as a playable race. At least read the lore about why they are gone.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer#Disappearance_of_the_Dwemer

"It appears that all members of the Dwemer race were simply removed from the world. When the previously untouched Dwemer ruins of Bamz-Amschend in Mournhold were rediscovered, numerous piles of ashes were present next to weapons and armor, on chairs, and in beds, suggesting the Dwemer's bodies were suddenly reduced to ash in some way. The dwarf Yagrum Bagarn, however, is the last known living being of his kind. He returned to Tamriel from his journey in the Outer Realm, and came to discover his people missing. In 4E 201, Arniel Gane, a researcher at the College of Winterhold in Skyrim, attempted to recreate the circumstances of the Dwemer's disappearance after obtaining Keening, one of Kagrenac's Tools, but vanished suddenly in the process, strengthening the theory that Kagrenac's use of the tools was the cause of the disappearance. Some scholars still resist the notion that the Dwemer disappeared all at once."

JKorr

Raideen wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

I don't know where you got the idea that the Dwemer are small from, since they are were just one of the mer, or elves. They are not connected with dwarves of other fantasy universes in any way except for building underground and sometimes being referred as dwarves by the community (I don't know if they are actually referred to as dwarves in any TES game?).

In any case, I'd prefer not to go this way as the misterious disapearance of the Dwemer is one of the most fascinating parts of TES lore and I would hate it if they break it by introducing them as a playable race. Also ESO as far as I know takes place atleast 1000 years after the dissaperance of the Dwemer.

Raideen wrote: »

I created a Dwemer Automaton to pay homage to Dwemer, but it would be amazing to see Dwemer fleshed out a bit more lore wise even if its for a brief period.

This I agree with. But definetly not by introducing actual Dwemer characters in game, be it player or NPC.

"the Dwemer were believed to be sized similarly to the average elf or human, though occasionally likened to large children with beards."

I read this as they were smaller than average.

I like the mysterious disappearance of them as well, but that does not mean I can not simultaneously desire to see them come back. In fact as far as we know, they can travel time through reality warping of the tonal architects. There are a number of ways to increase their lore, make them something fun to play and then close that door lore wise if or when ESO shuts down.

You might find this interesting. https://www.imperial-library.info/content/definitive-guide-dwemer

And this, posted by one of the original devs who worked on the single player Elder Scrolls games:

Dwarven Myth and Legend

Posted by WormGod (of Bethesda) on the Official Forums

"This myth and legend takes place long, long ago, before the Empire was established, and even before the northerners touched foot on Tamrielic shorelines. Elves (Dunmer) were the predominant race of the continent, alongside the much smaller races of beastmen. A traveling band of elves were crossing through a mountainous range in the northeastern region of Tamriel. They encountered a friendly group giants and established relations amongst the two races. The giants had never encountered any human-like races and were bewildered at the small appearance of the elves. The towering giants stood many, many heads over them. The elves of course, were really not too much different in appearance or size than a typical human, but the giants were not aware of this since they had never seen a human. The giants labeled the elves as "Dwarves", claiming that they were just smaller versions of themselves. Over several years, this tag became a widespread label, and these Elves were known as Dwarves.

The Dumner translation of the word Dwarf is Dwemer. So, strangely enough, all Dunmer would use the term "Dwemer", while the northerners/newcomers rerered to this ancient race as Dwarves, taking on the translation of the giants. It is unknown, but perhaps the newcomers encountered the giants before they did the elves.

Little is known as to the significance of this legend, but it is told to children all over Tamriel. Many would swear by it while many others will claim it is simply a bogus story.

More info on the Dunmer can be found in the Pocket Guide and even in Redguard. :-)"

later in the same thread, by WormGod

"Let me try this again....

Ok, "according" to the legend, the Dunmer originated from the Dwemer. They WERE once also known as Dwemer. The giants thought they were small people, and so called them Dwarves (just as we call short people midgets and dwarves). After many many generations perhaps, the name Dwarf, or the translation "Dwemer", finally just became the tag. I am not saying that the labeled Dunmer accepted the name, they may have just tolerated it. I mean afterall, to them it just meant "a short person". Remember, they have/had no concept of the D&D Dwarves, so would not think of themselves as being compared to them. It also doesnt make them a different race. They were by no means a different race. This was many many years before the Empire was even a thought, so the Houses didnt even exist back then either. The Dunmer operaterd their race through a network of tribes. When the Dwemer was heard about by other Dunmer tribes, they were considered as another tribe. But, for reasons perhaps unknown (hehehe) to many, this tribe was not accepted by other Dunmer tribes. Many things would occur in the years following the creation of the Dwemer, right up until the disappearance."

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

By the time of ESO, the dwemer were extinct for about 2800 years. What possible enclave are you talking about?

It's not exactly easy to determine if a group of deep "earth", cave dwelling species is extinct. That is a very easy thing to explain away in lore, outside of the fact the lore is very loose on Dwemer to start with.

1. They built huge cities with steam vents coming to the surface, would be hard to miss that.
2. Yes, they're meant to be a mystery, like Akavir.

Raideen wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Also, Dwemer weren't small.

Not the ones we know about.

And who do we know about? Yagrum Bagarn didn't seem small. Radac Stungnthumz was the size of a dunmer.
Also here's a quote from The War of the First Council by Agrippa Fundilius: "The War of the First Council was a First Age religious conflict between the secular Dunmer Houses Dwemer and Dagoth and the orthodox Dunmer Houses Indoril, Redoran, Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni".

1. There are lots of dwemer and steam in Vvardenfell, does not mean all that is underneath has been discovered.
2. When originally written yes, just like the clone wars in Star Wars. Does not mean things can't be expanded on. You prefer their lore be maintained as written, I prefer their lore be fleshed out because their story arc can go all over the place, and that is something I would like to see.

Also, they were referred to as the size of "large children with beards". I take this as being smaller than the average dunmer.

Where and who are those dwemer? Name at least one, that I didn't mention.

Thats the point, they are not discovered yet.

I don't want to discourage you but this is never gonna happen. This is your headcanon, it means a lot to you because it's a mysterious part of the game. You can create theories, you can believe in miracle, it can be your thing despite all in-game sources saying otherwise. But the moment they add something in the game the magic will be ruined for everyone, even for you.

Nope. Because I am not as invested into that mystery as you are.
1. The lore comes from a game, its always come from a game. There is nothing else setting the precedent except Elder Scrolls games.
2. The point in a game is to be an active participant in that world/universe.
3. I dont expect to find the entirety of the dwemer, nor suggested it. In fact I suggested that a group of them were found, I forget the exact words I used. There is little known so there is a lot of room for growth and interpretation.

Bottom line is this. I created this post because I would like to see them in game.

You quote in game lore.
Go play TES3... You have a quest with specters of dead Dwemer. They are the same size as you, or taller, what ever class you choose, they are normal height. That is canon. Period.
The book you shared is written a millennia after they disappeared and is conjecture of a random Nord.
Fact: Yagrum Bagarn is the last Dwemer. If he hasn't found them in 2,000 years, no, you can't just have them "pop up" 700 years before he makes this statement.
The term "Dwarves" in a TES setting is a slang, like calling Dunmer "Dark Elves" . They are "Dwemer", a "Mer" race which means Elves. The classic D&D definition is not applicable here, so stop with the bias of the term "Dwarves".
My two drakes.... Huzzah!

BlueRaven

Also, I posted this earlier but it bears repeating;

You don't need to have Zos break the lore to make a dwemer for you. You can just make one yourself. I did.







It was pretty easy, and you can do it in game right now.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Ratzkifal wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Just a reminder for those saying No and Never because of lore: the same was said about having dragons in the game once upon a time.
If it will sell expansions and make money they'll figure out a way to work it into the cannon.

Except that it wasn't. There was lore support for dragons. Nahfahlaar has been recruited to Tiber Septim's army and we knew that Reman and the Blades weren't able to complete their quest to get dragons extinct by their own internal documents. So there definitely were dragons around in the time between Reman and TES5

However the Dwemer lore is something entirely different to that. Although we had Dwemer ghosts in TES3, Skyrim had none and ESO even went a step further telling us that even necromancy does not work to bring back Dwemer ghosts, which is kind of a retcon of old lore, which I don't think they would have done if the completeness of their disappearance wasn't more important to them than the continuity. Whatever happened to the Dwemer, it happened to all of them at the same time all over Nirn.

The only way we will ever see Dwemer in ESO is either through timetravel backwards in time, travel to a parallel universe where they never disappeared or by meeting someone like Yagrum Bagarn who avoided getting Thanos'ed by being in an outer realm of Oblivion. I just want to mention that we've been to an outer realm of Oblivion now... So who knows.

At the end of the day, if we ever get to see the Dwemer again, even if we straight-up figure out the mystery of their disappearance, whatever answer we get must leave only more mystery behind, otherwise the Dwemer will lose what makes them cool - the mystery.

Ok.
Here i agree. But learning what happened is a far stretch from a playable race.

Yellow_Monolith

The Dwemer suddenly coming back into existence would be a bigger deal than Alduin's story in Skyrim and will most definitely not be featured in ESO. They may be part of the main story in Elder scrolls 6 or 7, they're that important. That being said, we don't know what happened to them.
They could have;
1.Achieved chim, understanding that they're part of a dream and blinking from existence.
2.Messed with the natural laws of the universe so much that some prime being like Sithis ripped them from existence.
3.Somehow messed with an Elder scroll so bad that they pushed their entire race forward in time (Like the way Alduin was sent forward in time only the Nords didn't know where Alduin would end up).
4.In causing the devolution of the Snow Elves into the Falmer, the Dwemer were punished/cursed by Akatosh. Maybe when the Falmer become more intelligent and start to rediscover their history and Akatosh, the Dwemer might reappear.

AuraNebula

I don't agree with bringing the dwemer back as a playable race. It would ruin the mystery. Everyone is so confident that they zero summed, but no one knows that for sure. I would be okay with them bringing Yagrum Bagrum back and giving us a very cool quest line like in Skyrim with Arniel's Endeavor. It was extremely fascinating. The end of the quest left you with more questions than when you started.

Ratzkifal

Buddy_Cactus wrote: »

The Dwemer suddenly coming back into existence would be a bigger deal than Alduin's story in Skyrim and will most definitely not be featured in ESO. They may be part of the main story in Elder scrolls 6 or 7, they're that important. That being said, we don't know what happened to them.
They could have;
1.Achieved chim, understanding that they're part of a dream and blinking from existence.
2.Messed with the natural laws of the universe so much that some prime being like Sithis ripped them from existence.
3.Somehow messed with and Elder scroll so bad that they pushed their entire race forward in time (Like the way Alduin was sent forward in time only the Nords didn't know where Alduin would end up).
4.In causing the devolution of the Snow Elves into the Falmer, the Dwemer were punished/cursed by Akatosh. Maybe when the Falmer become more intelligent and start to rediscover their history and Akatosh, the Dwemer might reappear.

I never even thought about 4. That's a pretty interesting one although not very likely, I'd say. Since Akatosh or rather Auri-El didn't care much about the Nords genociding the Snow Elves and everything their culture ever built, I doubt the Dwemer were the first ones crossing the line there. I do like the idea of the Dwemer fate being tied to the remaining Falmer though.

idk

Some mysteries should remain a mystery. It adds flavor to the lore Just as we do not know Yoda's race of planet of origin, the fate of the dwemer should remain a buried secret. It is part of what makes Tamriel so interesting.

Yellow_Monolith

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Buddy_Cactus wrote: »

The Dwemer suddenly coming back into existence would be a bigger deal than Alduin's story in Skyrim and will most definitely not be featured in ESO. They may be part of the main story in Elder scrolls 6 or 7, they're that important. That being said, we don't know what happened to them.
They could have;
1.Achieved chim, understanding that they're part of a dream and blinking from existence.
2.Messed with the natural laws of the universe so much that some prime being like Sithis ripped them from existence.
3.Somehow messed with and Elder scroll so bad that they pushed their entire race forward in time (Like the way Alduin was sent forward in time only the Nords didn't know where Alduin would end up).
4.In causing the devolution of the Snow Elves into the Falmer, the Dwemer were punished/cursed by Akatosh. Maybe when the Falmer become more intelligent and start to rediscover their history and Akatosh, the Dwemer might reappear.

I never even thought about 4. That's a pretty interesting one although not very likely, I'd say. Since Akatosh or rather Auri-El didn't care much about the Nords genociding the Snow Elves and everything their culture ever built, I doubt the Dwemer were the first ones crossing the line there. I do like the idea of the Dwemer fate being tied to the remaining Falmer though.

It's less about the deaths of the Snow Elves but more about how they couldn't perform their sacred rituals to Auri-el at their Chantries. I think that is also related to the Falmer's blindness too as the Snow elf ritual has them carry the water from the dark underground to the top of the mountain closest to the sun, like ascending.

Rudrani

they are eradicated, and have to stay that way.
if they could set a game in the even more distant past, then we could have dwemer as playable races.
I would constantly challenge them to duels. =p
They are arrogant fakkers

ealdwin

BlueRaven wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Long story short, there are no Dwemer on Nirn, period. You have better chances asking for a Lilmothiit character.

There are a number of races that used to be, that would make for better and more lore-friendly "lost enclave" type of stories w/ that race being added.

Lilmothiit, Snow-Elf, Kothringi... all races that used to exist, but have since either died off or were warped beyond recognition. All races that still could exist in some yet unknown enclave. As others have mentioned, there is no possibility of a hidden enclave of Dwemer on Nirn. They simply do not exist at all. At least, confirmable not on Nirn.

Not to mention the races we have seen that would also be good candidates for a new race—the Naga, the Maomer, other Furstocks, or Reachmen. Races that could be included with very little lore breaking at all.

The Falmer got mostly wiped out due to a genoside, THEN a poisoning (if the lore sources are correct). That is much different then what happened to the dwemer. As described by Vivec;

"...Dwemeri high priest Kagrenac then revealed that which he had built in the image of Vivec. It was a walking star, which burnt the armies of the Triune and destroyed the heartland of Veloth, creating the Inner Sea.

Each of the aspects of the ALMSIVI then rose up together, combining as one, and showed the world the sixth path. Ayem took from the star its fire, Seht took from it its mystery, and Vehk took from it its feet, which had been constructed before the gift of Molag Bal and destroyed in the manner of truth: by a great hammering. When the soul of the Dwemer could walk no more, they were removed from this world.

Resdaynia was no more. It had been redeemed of all the iniquities of the foolish. The ALMSIVI drew nets from the Beginning Place and captured the ash of Red Mountain, which they knew was the Blight of the Dwemer and that would serve only to infect the whole of the middle world, and ate it. ALTADOON DUNMERI! ..."

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_36

TLDR: ALL of the Dwemer on Nirn were Thanos snapped out of existence.


Now Vivec may not be the most reliable of sources, but it lines up reasonably well with everything we know about what happened.

Please, if you are here thinking it would be a "cool idea" about why we should get them as a playable race. At least read the lore about why they are gone.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer#Disappearance_of_the_Dwemer

"It appears that all members of the Dwemer race were simply removed from the world. When the previously untouched Dwemer ruins of Bamz-Amschend in Mournhold were rediscovered, numerous piles of ashes were present next to weapons and armor, on chairs, and in beds, suggesting the

BlueRaven wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Long story short, there are no Dwemer on Nirn, period. You have better chances asking for a Lilmothiit character.

There are a number of races that used to be, that would make for better and more lore-friendly "lost enclave" type of stories w/ that race being added.

Lilmothiit, Snow-Elf, Kothringi... all races that used to exist, but have since either died off or were warped beyond recognition. All races that still could exist in some yet unknown enclave. As others have mentioned, there is no possibility of a hidden enclave of Dwemer on Nirn. They simply do not exist at all. At least, confirmable not on Nirn.

Not to mention the races we have seen that would also be good candidates for a new race—the Naga, the Maomer, other Furstocks, or Reachmen. Races that could be included with very little lore breaking at all.

The Falmer got mostly wiped out due to a genoside, THEN a poisoning (if the lore sources are correct). That is much different then what happened to the dwemer. As described by Vivec;

"...Dwemeri high priest Kagrenac then revealed that which he had built in the image of Vivec. It was a walking star, which burnt the armies of the Triune and destroyed the heartland of Veloth, creating the Inner Sea.

Each of the aspects of the ALMSIVI then rose up together, combining as one, and showed the world the sixth path. Ayem took from the star its fire, Seht took from it its mystery, and Vehk took from it its feet, which had been constructed before the gift of Molag Bal and destroyed in the manner of truth: by a great hammering. When the soul of the Dwemer could walk no more, they were removed from this world.

Resdaynia was no more. It had been redeemed of all the iniquities of the foolish. The ALMSIVI drew nets from the Beginning Place and captured the ash of Red Mountain, which they knew was the Blight of the Dwemer and that would serve only to infect the whole of the middle world, and ate it. ALTADOON DUNMERI! ..."

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_36

TLDR: ALL of the Dwemer on Nirn were Thanos snapped out of existence.


Now Vivec may not be the most reliable of sources, but it lines up reasonably well with everything we know about what happened.

Please, if you are here thinking it would be a "cool idea" about why we should get them as a playable race. At least read the lore about why they are gone.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer#Disappearance_of_the_Dwemer

"It appears that all members of the Dwemer race were simply removed from the world. When the previously untouched Dwemer ruins of Bamz-Amschend in Mournhold were rediscovered, numerous piles of ashes were present next to weapons and armor, on chairs, and in beds, suggesting the Dwemer's bodies were suddenly reduced to ash in some way. The dwarf Yagrum Bagarn, however, is the last known living being of his kind. He returned to Tamriel from his journey in the Outer Realm, and came to discover his people missing. In 4E 201, Arniel Gane, a researcher at the College of Winterhold in Skyrim, attempted to recreate the circumstances of the Dwemer's disappearance after obtaining Keening, one of Kagrenac's Tools, but vanished suddenly in the process, strengthening the theory that Kagrenac's use of the tools was the cause of the disappearance. Some scholars still resist the notion that the Dwemer disappeared all at once."

Oh, I am completely against the idea of having the Dwemer appear or the answer to their disappearance in any future content of ESO (or a single player game for that matter). Perhaps my reply wasn't as clearly worded as I intended. What I was trying to convey was that the disappearance of the Dwemer makes them entirely unlikely to appear in some sort of lost enclave, especially compared to races that were driven to extinction through more natural and more clear, less mysterious ways (like angry Nords or a deadly disease).

To go further, I do not think any new races need to be added at all, as what we have are enough. Even for the races that have not gone extinct or have simply disappeared leaving only ashes behind. The 10 playable races are perfectly enough, as this is an Elder Scrolls game.

Sylvermynx

@BlueRaven - I agree. I don't need new races (or classes). All too often I think those are added to placate some supposed interest group.

I think the only one I might have an interest in would be Maormer. But even that's a stretch....

TX12001rwb17_ESO

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

They would be dumb to do this on this game. If the Dwemer ever do return it would have to be in an epic storyline on a main Elder Scrolls title.

Are you implying the largest TES game in the entire series with more lore, quests and content then everyother TES game combined is somehow not a main Elder Scrolls title?

Yes.

Because it's not.

How exactly? Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind have far less content, ESO should not be considered a "Side-story" given it's scope, it isn't some provincial spin'-off limited to one part of Tamriel and the events that transpire seem far more significant., the Oblivion Crisis seems like a literal joke compared to the planemeld and the feats of the LDB and Nerevarine seems rather tame compared to what the Vestige has accomplished even thus far.

If anything ESO IS the Elder Scrolls and games like Skyrim are just "numbered side-stories" with less significant events.

YstradClud

I use to play a Dwarf in WoW and that just get made fun of. The disappearance of the Dwemer in this game has a sense of mystery that makes them more respected.