Dwemer as a new race in a future chapter.

Raideen

I love playing small characters in games (sadly my GF does not share my passion for smaller races). I absolutely love the Dwemer aesthetic be it the older darker stone, or the newer white/gold style. Dwemer are imo the coolest race in the Elder Scrolls universe.

Their lore, be it mysterious and not documented in it's entirety, could easily be worked into ESO as it takes place 740+ years before Morrowind. There is no reason in that time that a small Dwemer enclave is discovered after an earthquake in Vvardenfell (tons of potential for a yearly chapter) introducing dwemer as a playable race, an "engineer" as a class, underground environments to explore without taking up map space for future chapters, and all the other goodness that comes with Dwemer. The end of ESO could "Wrap up" the dwemer introduction so that there is no continuity loss into morrowind.

I created a Dwemer Automaton to pay homage to Dwemer, but it would be amazing to see Dwemer fleshed out a bit more lore wise even if its for a brief period.

Anyway, I love Dwemer so just sharing my thoughts.

nukk3r

By the time of ESO, the dwemer were extinct for about 2800 years. What possible enclave are you talking about?

Faulgor

Also, Dwemer weren't small.

Raideen

nukk3r wrote: »

By the time of ESO, the dwemer were extinct for about 2800 years. What possible enclave are you talking about?

It's not exactly easy to determine if a group of deep "earth", cave dwelling species is extinct. That is a very easy thing to explain away in lore, outside of the fact the lore is very loose on Dwemer to start with.

Raideen

Faulgor wrote: »

Also, Dwemer weren't small.

Not the ones we know about.

Husan

I don't know where you got the idea that the Dwemer are small from, since they are were just one of the mer, or elves. They are not connected with dwarves of other fantasy universes in any way except for building underground and sometimes being referred as dwarves by the community (I don't know if they are actually referred to as dwarves in any TES game?).

In any case, I'd prefer not to go this way as the misterious disapearance of the Dwemer is one of the most fascinating parts of TES lore and I would hate it if they break it by introducing them as a playable race. Also ESO as far as I know takes place atleast 1000 years after the dissaperance of the Dwemer.

Raideen wrote: »

I created a Dwemer Automaton to pay homage to Dwemer, but it would be amazing to see Dwemer fleshed out a bit more lore wise even if its for a brief period.

This I agree with. But definetly not by introducing actual Dwemer characters in game, be it player or NPC.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

You'll see Goblins as a race long before you'll see the Dwemer.

Chaos2088

Due to lore reasons this won't be a thing. It would be cool tho....

nukk3r

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

By the time of ESO, the dwemer were extinct for about 2800 years. What possible enclave are you talking about?

It's not exactly easy to determine if a group of deep "earth", cave dwelling species is extinct. That is a very easy thing to explain away in lore, outside of the fact the lore is very loose on Dwemer to start with.

1. They built huge cities with steam vents coming to the surface, would be hard to miss that.
2. Yes, they're meant to be a mystery, like Akavir.

Raideen wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Also, Dwemer weren't small.

Not the ones we know about.

And who do we know about? Yagrum Bagarn didn't seem small. Radac Stungnthumz was the size of a dunmer.
Also here's a quote from The War of the First Council by Agrippa Fundilius: "The War of the First Council was a First Age religious conflict between the secular Dunmer Houses Dwemer and Dagoth and the orthodox Dunmer Houses Indoril, Redoran, Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni".

Husan

What we can potentially look forward for a new playable race is when we run out of space on the Tamriel map and start expanding the game to the west (Yokuda, Thras), and most importantly - and what I would like to see myself - Akavir.

It is the homeland of four seemingly unrelated races collectively referred to as the "Akaviri." These races are composed of the Demons of Kamal, the serpent-men of Tsaesci, the Monkey People of Tang Mo, and the Tiger Dragons of Ka'Po'Tun.[1]

ealdwin

Husan wrote: »

I don't know where you got the idea that the Dwemer are small from, since they are were just one of the mer, or elves. They are not connected with dwarves of other fantasy universes in any way except for building underground and sometimes being referred as dwarves by the community (I don't know if they are actually referred to as dwarves in any TES game?).

In any case, I'd prefer not to go this way as the misterious disapearance of the Dwemer is one of the most fascinating parts of TES lore and I would hate it if they break it by introducing them as a playable race. Also ESO as far as I know takes place atleast 1000 years after the dissaperance of the Dwemer.

Raideen wrote: »

I created a Dwemer Automaton to pay homage to Dwemer, but it would be amazing to see Dwemer fleshed out a bit more lore wise even if its for a brief period.

This I agree with. But definetly not by introducing actual Dwemer characters in game, be it player or NPC.

IIRC, the Dwemer were first called "dwarves" by the Giants.

Raideen

Husan wrote: »

I don't know where you got the idea that the Dwemer are small from, since they are were just one of the mer, or elves. They are not connected with dwarves of other fantasy universes in any way except for building underground and sometimes being referred as dwarves by the community (I don't know if they are actually referred to as dwarves in any TES game?).

In any case, I'd prefer not to go this way as the misterious disapearance of the Dwemer is one of the most fascinating parts of TES lore and I would hate it if they break it by introducing them as a playable race. Also ESO as far as I know takes place atleast 1000 years after the dissaperance of the Dwemer.

Raideen wrote: »

I created a Dwemer Automaton to pay homage to Dwemer, but it would be amazing to see Dwemer fleshed out a bit more lore wise even if its for a brief period.

This I agree with. But definetly not by introducing actual Dwemer characters in game, be it player or NPC.

"the Dwemer were believed to be sized similarly to the average elf or human, though occasionally likened to large children with beards."

I read this as they were smaller than average.

I like the mysterious disappearance of them as well, but that does not mean I can not simultaneously desire to see them come back. In fact as far as we know, they can travel time through reality warping of the tonal architects. There are a number of ways to increase their lore, make them something fun to play and then close that door lore wise if or when ESO shuts down.

relentless_turnip

I vote monkey people!!! from the other continent... As you can see I am an absolute lore buff

Raideen

Husan wrote: »

What we can potentially look forward for a new playable race is when we run out of space on the Tamriel map and start expanding the game to the west (Yokuda, Thras), and most importantly - and what I would like to see myself - Akavir.

It is the homeland of four seemingly unrelated races collectively referred to as the "Akaviri." These races are composed of the Demons of Kamal, the serpent-men of Tsaesci, the Monkey People of Tang Mo, and the Tiger Dragons of Ka'Po'Tun.[1]

As that it quite a ways down the road, not to mention every human who stepped foot on their shores was eaten, it simply makes more sense to ponder the idea of fleshing out dwemer more.

Raideen

nukk3r wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

By the time of ESO, the dwemer were extinct for about 2800 years. What possible enclave are you talking about?

It's not exactly easy to determine if a group of deep "earth", cave dwelling species is extinct. That is a very easy thing to explain away in lore, outside of the fact the lore is very loose on Dwemer to start with.

1. They built huge cities with steam vents coming to the surface, would be hard to miss that.
2. Yes, they're meant to be a mystery, like Akavir.

Raideen wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Also, Dwemer weren't small.

Not the ones we know about.

And who do we know about? Yagrum Bagarn didn't seem small. Radac Stungnthumz was the size of a dunmer.
Also here's a quote from The War of the First Council by Agrippa Fundilius: "The War of the First Council was a First Age religious conflict between the secular Dunmer Houses Dwemer and Dagoth and the orthodox Dunmer Houses Indoril, Redoran, Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni".

1. There are lots of dwemer and steam in Vvardenfell, does not mean all that is underneath has been discovered.
2. When originally written yes, just like the clone wars in Star Wars. Does not mean things can't be expanded on. You prefer their lore be maintained as written, I prefer their lore be fleshed out because their story arc can go all over the place, and that is something I would like to see.

Also, they were referred to as the size of "large children with beards". I take this as being smaller than the average dunmer.

DarkPicture

The whole eso stories happens around dwemers and their mystery so adding them just a race would kill a magic.

HertoginJanneke

Please no , I know it is part of the lore, but I truly dislike almost everything about the Dwemer. The Dwemer are long gone and that's the best part of them. It is bad enough we have Dwemer ruins and content like Clockwork City.

Raideen

Browart wrote: »

The whole eso stories happens around dwemers and their mystery so adding them just a race would kill a magic.

For you, not for me.

nukk3r

Raideen wrote: »

"the Dwemer were believed to be sized similarly to the average elf or human, though occasionally likened to large children with beards."

I read this as they were smaller than average.

Here's the quote from Herbane's Bestiary: Dwarven Automatons by Herebane: "The Dwarves have been extinct for many an age, and perhaps for the best. To see men and women the size of large children, all with beards, would be a most disturbing sight"

This was just an assumption, not a statement.

Raideen

HertoginJanneke wrote: »

Please no , I know it is part of the lore, but I truly dislike almost everything about the Dwemer. The Dwemer are long gone and that's the best part of them. It is bad enough we have Dwemer ruins and content like Clockwork City.

Sotha Sil and Clockwork city is the best thing the Elder Scrolls lore has going imo.

Raideen

nukk3r wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

"the Dwemer were believed to be sized similarly to the average elf or human, though occasionally likened to large children with beards."

I read this as they were smaller than average.

Here's the quote from Herbane's Bestiary: Dwarven Automatons by Herebane: "The Dwarves have been extinct for many an age, and perhaps for the best. To see men and women the size of large children, all with beards, would be a most disturbing sight"

This was just an assumption, not a statement.

Regardless, its been noted and observed that they were the size of large children. It's also evident based on the world lore of what is accepted universally as a "dwarf", even in real life terms a dwarf is a small person.

nukk3r

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

By the time of ESO, the dwemer were extinct for about 2800 years. What possible enclave are you talking about?

It's not exactly easy to determine if a group of deep "earth", cave dwelling species is extinct. That is a very easy thing to explain away in lore, outside of the fact the lore is very loose on Dwemer to start with.

1. They built huge cities with steam vents coming to the surface, would be hard to miss that.
2. Yes, they're meant to be a mystery, like Akavir.

Raideen wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Also, Dwemer weren't small.

Not the ones we know about.

And who do we know about? Yagrum Bagarn didn't seem small. Radac Stungnthumz was the size of a dunmer.
Also here's a quote from The War of the First Council by Agrippa Fundilius: "The War of the First Council was a First Age religious conflict between the secular Dunmer Houses Dwemer and Dagoth and the orthodox Dunmer Houses Indoril, Redoran, Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni".

1. There are lots of dwemer and steam in Vvardenfell, does not mean all that is underneath has been discovered.
2. When originally written yes, just like the clone wars in Star Wars. Does not mean things can't be expanded on. You prefer their lore be maintained as written, I prefer their lore be fleshed out because their story arc can go all over the place, and that is something I would like to see.

Also, they were referred to as the size of "large children with beards". I take this as being smaller than the average dunmer.

Where and who are those dwemer? Name at least one, that I didn't mention.

Calm_Fury

Pretty sure the whole "point" of Dwemers is to be this mysterious race that nobody knows everything about.

Though I'd love to see more, I think we will never see them directly in any Elder Scrolls games. It will always be just those bits and pieces and a lot of mystery.

The_Lex

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

By the time of ESO, the dwemer were extinct for about 2800 years. What possible enclave are you talking about?

It's not exactly easy to determine if a group of deep "earth", cave dwelling species is extinct. That is a very easy thing to explain away in lore, outside of the fact the lore is very loose on Dwemer to start with.

Lore-based theories surrounding their diappearance are:

1) they zero-summed (possible);

2) achieved CHIM (but that doesn't explain where they went);

3) they ascended to godhood through mythopoeic forces (this has multiple sub-theories, some of which include becoming the "skin" of Numidium);

4) they relocated to another plane of existence; or

5) they were wiped out because of a miscalculation by Kagrenac.

In lore, the only known living Dwemer was Yagrum Bagarn, whom we saw in TES III. However, he was spared from whatever happened to his people because, at the time, he was in another dimension...an outer realm (whatever that means). He had no idea of where the Dwemer went (he came back and saw that they were gone), but he did know what caused it--Kagrenac's work on the Heart of Lorkhan. He actually worked for Kagrenac as a Master Crafter.

The relevant point is that Yagrum looked for the Dwemer but could not find them. Yagrum, the Dwemer who had access to other dimensions and planes of existence, could not find his people. Yeah, so it seems rather unlikely that there is a remaining enclave of Dwemer. If there were, a mer like him would have found them.

Final Report to Trebonius

Yagrum Bagarn

emilyhyoyeon

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

"the Dwemer were believed to be sized similarly to the average elf or human, though occasionally likened to large children with beards."

I read this as they were smaller than average.

Here's the quote from Herbane's Bestiary: Dwarven Automatons by Herebane: "The Dwarves have been extinct for many an age, and perhaps for the best. To see men and women the size of large children, all with beards, would be a most disturbing sight"

This was just an assumption, not a statement.

Regardless, its been noted and observed that they were the size of large children. It's also evident based on the world lore of what is accepted universally as a "dwarf", even in real life terms a dwarf is a small person.

It's also been noted in some sources that orsimer aren't elven, even though they are. There are big issues of a sort of unreliable narrator in TES.

The mer we know well range in size pretty drastically too. Dunmer are basically the size of the four playable human races (who range in size but much less drastically than the playable mer), orsimer a bit taller IIRC, bosmer much shorter, altmer taller. Dwemer being around the same height as dunmer wouldn't make them particularly short but dunmer are still smaller than some of the other races, if that makes sense. An altmer might compare a dunmer's height to a child, for example. Someone with prejudice against the dwemer might even compare them to children just for pejorative reasons

cnyanes

Nope.

Actually, wait... let me think about it.

Okay, I've thought about it. Nope.

The_Lex

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

"the Dwemer were believed to be sized similarly to the average elf or human, though occasionally likened to large children with beards."

I read this as they were smaller than average.

Here's the quote from Herbane's Bestiary: Dwarven Automatons by Herebane: "The Dwarves have been extinct for many an age, and perhaps for the best. To see men and women the size of large children, all with beards, would be a most disturbing sight"

This was just an assumption, not a statement.

Regardless, its been noted and observed that they were the size of large children. It's also evident based on the world lore of what is accepted universally as a "dwarf", even in real life terms a dwarf is a small person.

"Contrary to many legends, archaeological evidence of known Dwemer ruins leads one to believe that they were about the same size as the typical human or elf, evidenced by the fact that all existing Dwarven armor is average sized (although some claim that "Dwarven armor" is either the outer shells of machines or mismatched pieces from various devices). According to fable, the moniker "dwarf" may have been given long ago by the giants to their "little" friends. Imperial excavation of Dwemer ruins supports the Dlyxexic theory that the translation of Dwemer as Deep Elves might also be read as Smart Elves. Indeed, perhaps the brilliant students of the Ehlnofey mentioned in The Anuad are the Dwarves themselves. Purported descriptions of the last living Dwemer cannot be relied upon, as he was admittedly bloated and deformed by Corprus, and the only other visual examples come from sculptures and Dwarven Spectres found in their ruined dwellings. It can be deduced, however, that long beards were popular among the lost elves, and they preferred heavy metal armors and robes. Their remaining features could be described similarly to that of the other elven races, as no specific information exists."

Lore:Dwemer

Ruins_of_Kemel-Ze

Dialog of Hasphat_Antabolis

WolvedOut

Playing Dwemer? No. Meeting Dwemer? Now that could be worked in.

nukk3r

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

"the Dwemer were believed to be sized similarly to the average elf or human, though occasionally likened to large children with beards."

I read this as they were smaller than average.

Here's the quote from Herbane's Bestiary: Dwarven Automatons by Herebane: "The Dwarves have been extinct for many an age, and perhaps for the best. To see men and women the size of large children, all with beards, would be a most disturbing sight"

This was just an assumption, not a statement.

Regardless, its been noted and observed that they were the size of large children. It's also evident based on the world lore of what is accepted universally as a "dwarf", even in real life terms a dwarf is a small person.

This wasn't an observation, nor an educated guess. This was an ignorant claim akin to "I've never seen Danes but I've heard about their activity 1000 years ago, they had beards and swung axes. Would be terrifying to see a Dane now".

Raideen

nukk3r wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

By the time of ESO, the dwemer were extinct for about 2800 years. What possible enclave are you talking about?

It's not exactly easy to determine if a group of deep "earth", cave dwelling species is extinct. That is a very easy thing to explain away in lore, outside of the fact the lore is very loose on Dwemer to start with.

1. They built huge cities with steam vents coming to the surface, would be hard to miss that.
2. Yes, they're meant to be a mystery, like Akavir.

Raideen wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Also, Dwemer weren't small.

Not the ones we know about.

And who do we know about? Yagrum Bagarn didn't seem small. Radac Stungnthumz was the size of a dunmer.
Also here's a quote from The War of the First Council by Agrippa Fundilius: "The War of the First Council was a First Age religious conflict between the secular Dunmer Houses Dwemer and Dagoth and the orthodox Dunmer Houses Indoril, Redoran, Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni".

1. There are lots of dwemer and steam in Vvardenfell, does not mean all that is underneath has been discovered.
2. When originally written yes, just like the clone wars in Star Wars. Does not mean things can't be expanded on. You prefer their lore be maintained as written, I prefer their lore be fleshed out because their story arc can go all over the place, and that is something I would like to see.

Also, they were referred to as the size of "large children with beards". I take this as being smaller than the average dunmer.

Where and who are those dwemer? Name at least one, that I didn't mention.

Thats the point, they are not discovered yet.

Raideen

The_Lex wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

By the time of ESO, the dwemer were extinct for about 2800 years. What possible enclave are you talking about?

It's not exactly easy to determine if a group of deep "earth", cave dwelling species is extinct. That is a very easy thing to explain away in lore, outside of the fact the lore is very loose on Dwemer to start with.

Lore-based theories surrounding their diappearance are:

1) they zero-summed (possible);

2) achieved CHIM (but that doesn't explain where they went);

3) they ascended to godhood through mythopoeic forces (this has multiple sub-theories, some of which include becoming the "skin" of Numidium);

4) they relocated to another plane of existence; or

5) they were wiped out because of a miscalculation by Kagrenac.

In lore, the only known living Dwemer was Yagrum Bagarn, whom we saw in TES III. However, he was spared from whatever happened to his people because, at the time, he was in another dimension...an outer realm (whatever that means). He had no idea of where the Dwemer went (he came back and saw that they were gone), but he did know what caused it--Kagrenac's work on the Heart of Lorkhan. He actually worked for Kagrenac as a Master Crafter.

The relevant point is that Yagrum looked for the Dwemer but could not find them. Yagrum, the Dwemer who had access to other dimensions and planes of existence, could not find his people. Yeah, so it seems rather unlikely that there is a remaining enclave of Dwemer. If there were, a mer like him would have found them.

Final Report to Trebonius

Yagrum Bagarn

Looking for something and not finding it is not the same as that something not existing.