Are tanks dying spieces in 2020?

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

I think this discussion is overblowing the subject. @Donny_Vito has nailed down the main problem: An end-game tank cannot do much else then end-game content, even overland stuff is sitting badly on his build (even when he adapts). So especially ppl with lower cp will always build a hybrid that enables them to continue leveling. But hybrids hit their skill ceiling somewhere in the vet DLC dungeons, so there is fewer and fewer tanks who dare doing the toughest dungeons. More often than not, a lower-cp tank insta-quits when he accidentially ends up in Lair of Maarselok or Moongrave Fane.

When it comes to the Arena-idea of @Swordancer, I doubt any long-term player doing dailies would be willing to 'prove' his setup and ability every single time before doing a dungeon. So basically you would just further reduce the number of available tanks.

Agree, having to do some test each time would be pointless and locking in skills and gear would be directly harmful.
Now having something like an undaunted academy where you had to qualify for roles for different characters had been nice

You are right that arena before each queue is completely ridiculous. But I think they can fix it by a few check boxes
1. Experienced player doing daily QUICKLY (they can auto check undaunted maxed out, and how many times this toon completed particular dungeon, if passing all check, you get queued with other experienced players)
2. Experienced player, leveling toon (undaunted probably not maxxed but can be put in queue with beginners)
3. Experienced player wanting to help beginners (definitely get matched with 2-3 beginners)
4. Beginners (undaunted not max, CP low, never done dungeon)

My point is a lot of stuff can be checked automatically by the game, to match up groups better. And these 4 check boxes can be added to GF to all people to choose which kind of group they want to be in at that moment.

OH, here's another easy fix. I queue as tank mostly but also healer and even though it pops up very fast, nearly every single time everyone except 1 DPS accepts. I sit there waiting for a minute or so to see 'invite declined'. WHAT? I think everyone that has checked the box 'Auto-accept' should be grouped together so someone doesn't decline and make you wait longer. As DPS when the other DPS declines I have to wait a lot longer, this selfish stuff has to go. Also I don't know why GF selects 4 people only, the next 5 or so DPS should ALL get the invite and the first 2 to accept should be let in, that way declining will be eliminated and make overall queueing go faster.

BTW for number 3 above since you are experienced wanting to help others you are automatically leader and maybe send a message to others that the person wants to help others. If this was done right I might even choose this one more than doing speed run by selecting #1.

TheJTOON

I tank. I tank with GF but it is frustrating having people run off on their own and expect you to get the mobs off of them.

Xebov

As a Tank there is little reason for me to run things i dont need, especially when its DLC content. I only run specific Pledges in PUGs and there its a bad experience half of the time. When i farmed UG when it came out i did some vet runs and got bad DDs that didnt even bother with normal first. So i had some low DPS guys who didnt know mechanics. So when it comes to special stuff i alsways link up with friends and go with them because i know what i can expect.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Yes, few tanks and for good reason.

1. Tank goes down on hard content, team goes down - and you're blamed for it. That's a lot of pressure.
2. On vet DLC a lot of things one shot a tank, one desynch, lag or delay on your block and it's a team wipe.
3. It's much easier to hide your mistakes as DPS, nobody notice if you miss a light attack here or there.
4. You don't do damage and you're completely at the mercy of your DPS players.
5. On vet trial you have no control on what you can wear, what skills and ultimates you can use. Other people tell you how to play your character - unlike DPS where you just need to do light attack weaving with whatever gear you fancy.
6. On easier content DPS behave extremely poorly and will pull mobs and bosses, dragging you along. It's a horrible place to learn how to tank.
7. Tank sets are extremely un-inspirering except for a few pieces here and there.

It can be summed up very easy. Tanks are expected to tank everything as long as its needed (for extended times due to bad DPS) without dying and without having support from most of their gear and half of their skills because thats reserved for DD support. Whenever a Tank decides to wear some self supporting gear even the worst of DDs get angry.

Atherakhia wrote: »

Tanking is just horrifically boring in this game. If it were fun you'd probably see more people queuing and would need to wait 1+ hours in queue. Unfortunately most of the tanks who use the group finder are likely DPS or Healers who got sick of waiting in 1+ hour queues and are now just tanking out of desperation.

The problem is not that its boring. The problem is that the level of responsibility is much higher than that of a DD and there is nothing to reward for this. Noone thanks you if you did a good Job and everyone blames you when something goes wrong. In addition to that you need extra gear and skills for Overland and Quest content outside of group play.

Rungar

theres only one class in vet eso and thats ninja.

AgaTheGreat

As an end game tank, I don't pug dungeons because 9 out of 10 times, the DDs are extremely poor and it annoys me when I waste my time.

craybest

There's clearly a design issue if there aren't enough tanks or healers for dungeon queues.
Either make tanking easier z more fun or something , because it's not working.

Major_Lag

craybest wrote: »

There's clearly a design issue if there aren't enough tanks or healers for dungeon queues.
Either make tanking easier z more fun or something , because it's not working.

There would be a lot more tanks, and probably also more healers, if the average DD wasn't so abysmally bad: low DPS, doesn't know and/or follow mechanics, stands in red and wipes repeatedly, then proceeds to blame the tank and healer.

The good DDs in group finder are really, really good. (Very) rarely I've tanked in PUGs where the group DPS was >100k.
The average is meh at best.
But the worst... that's where the most hair-raising tales are invariably told, material which is perhaps best reserved for the upcoming Witches' Festival.

Donny_Vito

craybest wrote: »

There's clearly a design issue if there aren't enough tanks or healers for dungeon queues.
Either make tanking easier z more fun or something , because it's not working.

Tanking can be fun with the right group and with challenging content where good tanks can shine.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

craybest wrote: »

There's clearly a design issue if there aren't enough tanks or healers for dungeon queues.
Either make tanking easier z more fun or something , because it's not working.

No, the problem is the huge amount of sub-par DPS players.

Us tanks are alive and well. But we stick to within our guilds for the most part.

When a PuG can't even clear vFG1 HM, which happens a lot, because their damage is that low, then yes, I would rather get my easy 2-keys with my guild, who can clear it in a pretty short time.

Cryptical

BlueRaven wrote: »

MajThorax wrote: »

In my opinion zos should give incentives to tanks and healers so more people play these roles. Double drops from each boss in veteran dungeons for example. They do most of the hard work anyway.

The problem here is fake tanks. How would the system know if the spot is being done by an actual tank?

Second, I don’t think double drops or rewards will get me to pug a tanking spot.

Make it exclusive.

1/ Vet difficulty
2/ DLC dungeon
3/ Queued through group finder
4/ Not a pre made group
5/ Not an invited replacement

Number 4 and 5 are there to prevent abuse. Because there are arseholes. Too many. ‘Nuff said.

If all of those conditions are met, then tank and healer get double drops from the bosses through the dungeon.

All through the dungeon, because sometimes people just can’t pull it together enough to beat the white werewolf in moonhunter, or that guy in cradle that spawns shades, or the evil pillar in Maar, or the inhibitor of white gold, the abomination of icp, narilmor of malatar, the list goes on.

Donny_Vito

All through the dungeon, because sometimes people just can’t pull it together enough to beat the white werewolf in moonhunter, or that guy in cradle that spawns shades, or the evil pillar in Maar, or the inhibitor of white gold, the abomination of icp, narilmor of malatar, the list goes on.

I like FrostValut for that reason. The troll is a good indicator of whether or not you should continue forth. I dislike when it's something like Maarselok where you've cleared half or more of the dungeon before you get to the challenging boss where most PUGs whither (if they haven't already).

BalticBlues

Many Tanks (including me) do not PUG anymore because:

1. ZOS nerfed Tank moster sets resources because of PvP
2. ZOS made blocking server-side instead of client-side

Explanation:
Due to the nerfed Tank monster sets, tank resources now are lower. And now that the server has to confirm each block, blocking is a server gamble instead of reliable skill, therefore Tanks often have to dodgeroll (which is still client-side) to be safe on Heavy Attacks of DLC bosses, burning even more resources.

Result:
Tank resources now are so low that many tanks only run wie reliable friends/guildies. Because the tanks are not willing to burn potion after potion (and their playing time) for PUGs which often are barely able to clear the content.

BXR_Lonestar

There's plenty of tanks out there - I have two of them. Just not many will que for group finder. So many people out there complain about "fake tanks" and "fake healers" - basically, DPS who switch roles for faster que times, but far fewer complain about the "fake DPS" out there - people who are DPS in name only. But it is a real problem, which is why many good tanks don't que in group finder.

Most good tanks don't want to spend two hours or more in a vet dungeon or spend that time wiping because DPS is too low or because people don't know mechanics. The rewards simply aren't worth the effort, so it is better to simply wait for friends or guildmates to run the content with than force the issue by queing up for a pug.

If they want to fix this issue they could: 1) make mechanics less complex so that a group of randoms that aren't communicating can still get through 2) get rid of OHK mechanics so that good support (good tanks/healers) can overcome low DPS by keeping the group alive when mechanics are failed 3) actually improve rewards for tanks who do pug. Something like - complete a dungeon through the groupfinder as a tank grants you Meridia's boon, giving you double drops for the next 2 hours of play. Sure, it might get abused by fake tanks too, but unless you want to dumb things down in difficult content (not something I'm a proponent of), then they need to figure out a way to incentivize real tanks to que or they're not going to do it.

Xebov

craybest wrote: »

There's clearly a design issue if there aren't enough tanks or healers for dungeon queues.
Either make tanking easier z more fun or something , because it's not working.

Every MMO i ever played has a shortage in Tanks. Being a Tank comes with a higher responsibility without any extra rewards. Also many players dont recognize and appreciated good Tanks.

BalticBlues wrote: »

2. ZOS made blocking server-side instead of client-side

Blocking was never client side. When the change you mean happened it was extensivly explained.

BalticBlues wrote: »

Tank resources now are so low that many tanks only run wie reliable friends/guildies. Because the tanks are not willing to burn potion after potion (and their playing time) for PUGs which often are barely able to clear the content.

My guess is that you have a problem with your resource management. I dont see any negative changes after the patch.

Swordancer

I am at the point right now where I just play with DD as a tank do grind items on normal without any respect to the group members and just rushing to get what I want as quick as I can. Being honorable player time is over for me after reading all your comments in this thread.

I am just using lack of tank problem on my advantage to quick get in to dungeon and I don't care if low level people that usually joins me dies or not. If it scares new players away then I don't care becouse it is not my fault that game mechanics looks that way. I dont need to even finish the dungeon becouse all I need is to do not waste my own time and I can quickly join other group again to get few more drops.

I can do this, this isn't against any game rules and everybody who thinks that this is bad then I remind you. Most of you complan about DPS so now just complain little more. Who cares? Certainly not ZoS becous they would change that long time ago and the things are as they are which means same mechanics, same problems.

Am I a bad person right now? I don't think so. I am just tired of being a good guy in the game and all I get for that is random guy leaving becouse he can without any consequences. Now Im just beeing them.

josiahva

Swordancer wrote: »

I am at the point right now where I just play with DD as a tank do grind items on normal without any respect to the group members and just rushing to get what I want as quick as I can. Being honorable player time is over for me after reading all your comments in this thread.

I am just using lack of tank problem on my advantage to quick get in to dungeon and I don't care if low level people that usually joins me dies or not. If it scares new players away then I don't care becouse it is not my fault that game mechanics looks that way. I dont need to even finish the dungeon becouse all I need is to do not waste my own time and I can quickly join other group again to get few more drops.

I can do this, this isn't against any game rules and everybody who thinks that this is bad then I remind you. Most of you complan about DPS so now just complain little more. Who cares? Certainly not ZoS becous they would change that long time ago and the things are as they are which means same mechanics, same problems.

Am I a bad person right now? I don't think so. I am just tired of being a good guy in the game and all I get for that is random guy leaving becouse he can without any consequences. Now Im just beeing them.

Why not just solo the dungeon then? That way you don't mess up other people's runs? You can do whatever you like then. If you fake tank it, people aren't likely to give you any of their drops anyway, I know I wouldn't trade with someone who queued for a role they didn't at least try to perform. There is literally NO REASON to inflict your presence on a group when you can can go do your own thing in your own instance. Queuing for a group is simply using other people for your own advantage when you do what you you have just stated.

etchedpixels

The problem with solo or two handing a dungeon is there is no way to queue for the random daily and say 'and we don't need anyone else'. I'd certainly solo some of the random normals or two hand them with a decent guild DD if I could. Instead we have the situations where you have to drag along random people who aren't at your skill level or who want to do it slower/faster and everyone hates it.

Yes you can get two guild members to stand at the door but it's kind of silly that there isn't a 'queue as small group/queue as solo' option.

Odovacar

I play my tank but only when one is needed for people I know. I very rarely (don't remember last time tbh) queues in GF with my tank.

GimpyPorcupine

I really enjoy tanking; in fact, I level Undaunted (to 9) by converting toons to tanks and running dailies, as it practically eliminates time in queue. I've done that with 6 characters so far (2 each Sorc, DK, Warden).

I recently cancelled by sub, so the only DLC dungeons I have are WGT and ICP, and even when I subbed, I avoided the DLC dungeons via group finder because they're just too long and tedious, and the groups are too hit-and-miss.

Swordancer

@josiahva People usually won't give you rare items becouse they are out there usually for the same reason. If you play as tank on normal there is big chance that there gonna be people below CP160 with you and there is always an option of exchanging which is still fair even when they don't like me being a fake tank. It also doesn't mean that every player playing with me won't give me what I need if they don't care about my rush and they do not suck. If they can survive then they can only thank me for helping them doing it so quick.

If they suck then they will die and can complain, so what? Drop rate for some items is so low anyway so I'll take my chances. Even playing as actual and awsome tank doesn't mean people would give you what you need even when they don't need these items at all. We all now that pain when somone just don't care about exchanging, right? Why should I care about them dying without actual tank? They are random strangers that plays unfair mechanics and Im just done beeing a nice guy.

With me they usually don't need to die at all becouse I can quickly kill most of the bosses in the regular dungeons solo and in a few DLC one even. You also can't solo nICP becouse of gates and playing solo is always slower so I still prefer playing random as fake tank now when I grind. Why should I care about it if it's not forbidden?

Merforum

josiahva wrote: »

Swordancer wrote: »

I am at the point right now where I just play with DD as a tank do grind items on normal without any respect to the group members and just rushing to get what I want as quick as I can. Being honorable player time is over for me after reading all your comments in this thread.

I am just using lack of tank problem on my advantage to quick get in to dungeon and I don't care if low level people that usually joins me dies or not. If it scares new players away then I don't care becouse it is not my fault that game mechanics looks that way. I dont need to even finish the dungeon becouse all I need is to do not waste my own time and I can quickly join other group again to get few more drops.

I can do this, this isn't against any game rules and everybody who thinks that this is bad then I remind you. Most of you complan about DPS so now just complain little more. Who cares? Certainly not ZoS becous they would change that long time ago and the things are as they are which means same mechanics, same problems.

Am I a bad person right now? I don't think so. I am just tired of being a good guy in the game and all I get for that is random guy leaving becouse he can without any consequences. Now Im just beeing them.

Why not just solo the dungeon then? That way you don't mess up other people's runs? You can do whatever you like then. If you fake tank it, people aren't likely to give you any of their drops anyway, I know I wouldn't trade with someone who queued for a role they didn't at least try to perform. There is literally NO REASON to inflict your presence on a group when you can can go do your own thing in your own instance. Queuing for a group is simply using other people for your own advantage when you do what you you have just stated.

WOW look at this, the OP is the kind of person who makes life difficult for the Real Tanks which is the reason lots of them don't use GF, and now his solution is to be an even worse problem FAKE TANK and ruin everyone else's experience even more. But in his mind the problem is Real Tanks and GF.

But since you can't change people to be respectful ESO has to make some changes to GF, one solution I think is for GF is to add a couple check boxes

1. For people to say we want to do quick run, and allow even 4 DPS. Where the system checks if each person ran that particular dungeon at least 5 times, and has CP500+, and Undaunted lvl 10 or something like that.

2. Then have a separate queue for the standard 1T, 1H, 2D, where everyone else queues.

I also think group finder should store info about each time a users per toon does each dungeon. And not let you queue for Vet dungeon until you did it on normal at least 2 times or something like that also.

Dragonredux

I like tanking in games in general but it's just not fun to do with PUGs in this game.

Low tanks is a problem all MMOs have, it happens because of the nature of the role. You have generally the most responsibility as you lead to group because you're the wall of the group and if you fall 9 times out of 10, the group will too. The group can usually recover if a DPS falls and a lesser extent the healer.

This game by design and also by lack of incentives really don't drive people to tank with randoms. You do nothing in terms of damage unless you use proc sets but then you trade group utility and general tankiness. No real extra incentive to do a more demanding role (besides lower queue times but that's a given considering the nature of the role). On normal, people will just run ahead of you regardless if you're trying to learn to tank or not or just doing a quest and you can't do it vet because people expect you do your role by then so it's a lose-lose situation. Thus you find a lot of people who want to tank just stick either their friends or guild members who they know and trust.

Also it's doesn't help in this game tanking is just you being a buff bot with a taunt button. You don't really feel like a wall that protects the group. I still find it funny that one of the best "tank" sets in this game is a DPS set.

idk

TheJTOON wrote: »

I tank. I tank with GF but it is frustrating having people run off on their own and expect you to get the mobs off of them.

This, along with too many players with really bad DPS in the GF, to many players far to challenged seeing mechanics, and more are the reason the game sees so few tanks queue solo in the GF.

Some friends and I often queue up to see what we get to fill one vacancy. It is not unusual that we are doing 90% of the damage. It is also far to common ask my friends to stop resurrecting the pug after they die a few times in the same boss fight to the same mechanic.

I used to queue solo to help the GF but I quickly grew tired of getting groups where all three are like what I mentioned above. It gets old after a while and they would be better served and improve more if they ran with a guild and got actual advice to improve and learned mechanics.

Tanks are not a dying breed. Most decent players are in guilds and run with guildmates. We tanks do the same.

Swordancer

@Merforum you don't get it. I was a nice guy, Im not now. It's not my fault that ESO needs changes you are talking about but it's just whishes that were never fulfilled. You think that fake tanks ruin the game? I think that current group finder, current dungeon mechanics, lags and a lot of other things ruin the game and fake tanks is just response to some things that are wrong in most of the cases. I think that playing the fake tank that can do the dungeon anyway is still better that waiting 30 min for an actual one to show up. Im not playing fake tank on veteran with random people so keep that in mind.

josiahva

Dragonredux wrote: »

I like tanking in games in general but it's just not fun to do with PUGs in this game.

Low tanks is a problem all MMOs have, it happens because of the nature of the role. You have generally the most responsibility as you lead to group because you're the wall of the group and if you fall 9 times out of 10, the group will too. The group can usually recover if a DPS falls and a lesser extent the healer.

This game by design and also by lack of incentives really don't drive people to tank with randoms. You do nothing in terms of damage unless you use proc sets but then you trade group utility and general tankiness. No real extra incentive to do a more demanding role (besides lower queue times but that's a given considering the nature of the role). On normal, people will just run ahead of you regardless if you're trying to learn to tank or not or just doing a quest and you can't do it vet because people expect you do your role by then so it's a lose-lose situation. Thus you find a lot of people who want to tank just stick either their friends or guild members who they know and trust.

Also it's doesn't help in this game tanking is just you being a buff bot with a taunt button. You don't really feel like a wall that protects the group. I still find it funny that one of the best "tank" sets in this game is a DPS set.

In dungeons, you can run whatever sets you want and 99.9% of the time no one cares as long as you do your job. My default is a group-shield tank for pugs, using Imperium, Lord Warden for sets, Igneous Shield, Bone Wall, Barrier, and Healing Ward(emergency cast) for shields...I am certainly a "wall" with that setup, buffing group defense significantly...no one ever complains about that in 4-man content. I have no problem equipping Alkosh, Powerful Assault, Yoln, or any other damage boosting sets....but they just don't work as well for random pugs because inevitably pugs just aren't putting out enough damage to take full advantage and survival has a higher priority in vet DLC pugs...dead DPS do no damage regardless of how high their spell damage is.

Merforum

Swordancer wrote: »

@Merforum you don't get it. I was a nice guy, Im not now. It's not my fault that ESO needs changes you are talking about but it's just whishes that were never fulfilled. You think that fake tanks ruin the game? I think that current guild finder, current dungeon mechanics, lags and a lot of other things ruin the game and fake tanks is just response to some things that are wrong in most of the cases. I think that playing the fake tank that can do the dungeon anyway is still better that waiting 30 min for an actual one to show up. Im not playing fake tank on veteran with random people so keep that in mind.

Sounds like you are just making excuses for bad behavior. You are teaching new players terrible behavior, making worse for everyone. And making it impossible to find all the chests, or doing quests. Also how is anyone going to learn mechanics when you run in before they are in the room, or come in later or get locked behind door, etc. and you are just creating chaos.

The very least you can do is wait for everyone before boss fights, taunt big hitters, have enough health/blocking to not get killed. That is absolute minimum. Anyone who doesn't do that IS THE PROBLEM. It is one thing to be arrogant jerk who makes GF suck, but don't turn around and blame something else.

BTW when I tank and am farming gear and ask for it 80% people give pieces, but fake tank jerks never get any. What's faster getting all the pieces you are looking for in 1 run being cool to people or running dungeon 5 times being jerk???

Swordancer

Im playing with adult people, it's 18+ game after all. Im not teaching anyone anything becouse they can make thier own decisions. If you don't like somone behavior you repeat it? I don't think so. I can do my job on normal without dying and still do proper DPS usually surpassing the abilities of random people statistically. It is still good for them after all to have badass DPS on thier side . Being a rushing fake tank in dungeon is something not other people pushed me to but the game itself and I don't care if some random guy wouldn't share an item I need with me. His decision. Also it is your opinion I do not share. I'll still be a fake tank in normal dungeon becouse today noone complained about it at all. Anyway this is my choice how do I play and I really don't care if you like it or not.

zaria

Major_Lag wrote: »

craybest wrote: »

There's clearly a design issue if there aren't enough tanks or healers for dungeon queues.
Either make tanking easier z more fun or something , because it's not working.

There would be a lot more tanks, and probably also more healers, if the average DD wasn't so abysmally bad: low DPS, doesn't know and/or follow mechanics, stands in red and wipes repeatedly, then proceeds to blame the tank and healer.

The good DDs in group finder are really, really good. (Very) rarely I've tanked in PUGs where the group DPS was >100k.
The average is meh at best.
But the worst... that's where the most hair-raising tales are invariably told, material which is perhaps best reserved for the upcoming Witches' Festival.

My worst story was leveling my first tank I was level 48 during double xp so I knew I would hit 50 at end of dungeon with the random normal + quest+ scroll.
It was BC2, I learned that BC2 has two DPS checks, Keeper indril and the adds who spawn and the Daedrots on last boss.
Yes it require surreal low dps even in vet.

Now on my second tank I puged vBC2, odd hours so no guild run and only needed that for quest.
Came in got the message for the quest and an portal, came in on last boss, fake tank was kicked. First question was are you an real tank, real as they get

Low dps groups guess 20K group, healer who saved them and used shards, yes he tended to stay on resto staff.
Think they missed som balls too as boss stayed up an long time.
Now the problem was that they was afraid of killing daedrots, if I released them to die in AoE on boss the one targeted would run around kiting away from boss, ended up with 10 something, and I was bubbled 5 times, did not see other getting bubbled.
And dressing room messes up so I did not have inner light.
Did it but it was a bit hectic
Yes here I would just explained that I only needed to hold 3 daedrots, kill the extra I send. And have an focus on the balls.

Merforum

Swordancer wrote: »

Im playing with an adult people, it's 18+ game after all. Im not teaching anyone anything becouse they can make thier own decisions. If you don't like somone behavior you repeat it? I don't think so. I can do my job on normal without dying and still do proper DPS usually surpassing the abilities of random people statistically. It is still good for them after all to have badass DPS on thier side . Being a rushing fake tank in dungeon is something not other people pushed me to but the game itself and I don't care if some random guy wouldn't share an item I need with me. His decision. Also it is your opinion I do not share. I'll still be a fake tank in normal dungeon becouse today noone complained about it at all. Anyway this is my choice how do I play and I really don't care if you like it or not.

Well there you have it folks. This guy started a thread acting like he was worried about the fate of tanking in ESO, when all he wanted was to see if anyone would justify people like him ruining GF.

Xebov

Swordancer wrote: »

Am I a bad person right now? I don't think so. I am just tired of being a good guy in the game and all I get for that is random guy leaving becouse he can without any consequences. Now Im just beeing them.

It has consequences. The dungeon fidner has a 15minute cooldown. You are also comparing apples with oranges. A tank that leaves because the group is garbage is not the same as a dd that queues as fake tank to short cut the queue. There is a huge difference.

You might have read the comments in this thread, but i have the feeling you didnt understand them. Tanks are not slaves to DD players that are just there to service them. We are equals to them. As equals we can expect them to put as much work in their characters as we put in ours. In most cases this is not the case. We have to learn mechanics and get propper gear to work well, but we have to deal with players that dont bother about mechanics and often dont even bother to get propper basic builds going because Tanks are there to compensate for this. We are getting disrespected on a regular basis by attacks from players that dont appriciate us because tehy think we have to service them. The time we spend in group content gets disrespected by players that expect us to farm for weeks for gear but dont want to spend 5 minutes by themselves to get some basic stuff going. If you think we should leave such groups be my guest, make a Tank and walk some miles in our boots. Some weeks down the road you will come here and say the exact ssame things we do.