Are tanks dying spieces in 2020?

visionality

I think this discussion is overblowing the subject. @Donny_Vito has nailed down the main problem: An end-game tank cannot do much else then end-game content, even overland stuff is sitting badly on his build (even when he adapts). So especially ppl with lower cp will always build a hybrid that enables them to continue leveling. But hybrids hit their skill ceiling somewhere in the vet DLC dungeons, so there is fewer and fewer tanks who dare doing the toughest dungeons. More often than not, a lower-cp tank insta-quits when he accidentially ends up in Lair of Maarselok or Moongrave Fane.

When it comes to the Arena-idea of @Swordancer, I doubt any long-term player doing dailies would be willing to 'prove' his setup and ability every single time before doing a dungeon. So basically you would just further reduce the number of available tanks.

Aznarb

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

As a healer I often Tank most pledge everyday running with 3 DD.
Their is only few DLC one where I can't, otherwise, it's just about taunt and dodge.

I'll probably made a tank soon though, still more useful than healer these day. I've even take a long break from the game and came back a bit after greymoor, it was just so boring to play as "healer" where most of the time I switched to full DD cuz healer is not needed when your friend/group are good enough.

Tank have lot of utility, but healer ? Outside of trial ? Mehh, the only moment heal are useful is when running with casual or progression player, that all.

Healers can buff the team add to their stamina and magika debuff enemies. My olorime boost team dps. I can off-set them with lightning staff(yes I know a lot of tanks use this too) I can restore their stamina and magika with well various things. I can use debuffs on bosses. Healer role is much more than restoring health just as tank role has more than just taunting enemies. The general view that this is all they are and that we can just dps through all the content is the general reason why random groups are a mess.

Don't get me wrong, I perfectly know what healer and tank job are. But in vetDG even dlc, you extremely rarely need a healer when you don't pug. Doesn't matter the buff/debuff in 4man content, if you've 3 dps or even 4 if the tank play hybrid, you'll get them done way faster.
And that just because of how eso work, the faster you blow thing away, the less dmg you'll take. Their is a reason why even unchained title aka most difficult 4man achievement, is easier with 3 DD + 1 tank in olo/yolna/sympho (with altar).

That exactly what I said, standard comp are good with low skill player (not an insult to these player) but once you and your friend become very good, as a healer that the end of the road outside of vTrial.
And that extremely frustrating when you manage to be good enough to clear all as healer and then, the only reward for all of your team work to being good, is that they don't need healer anymore.

I know my English is not perfect but you get the point I think. The true support role on this game is tank. Healer are just buff bot. Their is nothing hard to heal in this game, the only thing you've to care is buff/debuff uptime, that not challenging or interesting and that why I look more and more on the Tank side.

Galwylin

I tanked for five years in WoW and have succumb to the will of the player base. Nothing is the fault of damage dealers and my job is to protect you from your mistakes. I have found that viewpoint of the role of tanks is far and wide the belief in all MMORPGs. Healers are expected to heal you while you stand in the stupid and tanks are expected to target whatever mob you decide to focus on ignoring what I want you need to focus on. I'd swear some purposely would not attack ONLY those mobs I wanted them to focus on. If I've got the attention of a mob then obviously the damage dealer needs to not damage that mob but search for a mob even if they have to leave the vicinity of the group.

So when I started playing ESO I did look towards tanks then choose the class I thought had the least likely ability to preform that job and play damage dealer. Sure we have tanks that wouldn't know a taunt if it bit them in the backside and healers that make their shopping lists on Amazon but its really been the damage dealers who have refused to recognize their role and bristle at the idea they aren't leading the group. Sometimes each one going off in opposing directions only to die and blame the real reasons for that death, the healer and the tank.

I'm not surprised there are fewer. Damage dealers get far too much focus and really the best moments to shine. Tanks and healers are out of luck. You make games where those roles are boring and frustrating. And ensure that no success is ever due to their work. And people don't want to play those roles? How totally not shocking. Stories tell of the death blow delivered against impossible odds and ignore the guy that kept the attention so that blow could be delivered. You blocked a 30k hit? Bah, I got to deliver that 30k hit.

wraithguknub18_ESO

I want to tank but dont feel like getting kicked/yelled at for being new again. or not knowing everything about the dungeon.

kathandira

I can definitely echo the bad groups in Dungeon Finder. Yesterday I was on my two Tanks doing Vet Dailies. I ran it on my Templar Tank first. Not a problem, decent group. I ran it on my Warden Tank, total nightmare for 2 groups before I got a group who could do enough DPS on the last boss to actually kill it.

But the same goes for when I play my Healers. I had horrible Tanks and DPS for 3 groups until I just gave up. I explained mechanics (politely). But I am stuck in vBC2 with CP 300-500 DPS who are not prepared for the content, and Tanks that don't listen. Watching a Tank bring 6 Daedroth's to the boss, while CP 300+ DPS attempting to kill them and the boss was a total nightmare. I asked the Tank to keep the Daedroth's away, and they simply didn't listen. Eventually, I abandoned ship and logged off.

kathandira

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

[do you think players capable of doing 80k+ DPS blindfolded enjoy getting in groups with fake tanks, fake healers, or DPS that can't break 20k? This can't be helped.

It's not a problem for a DPS that does 80k+ dps to carry a <20k DPS. I pug'd vUHG the last time as a DD and actually carried the other guy by doing 70%+ of group dps (my max dps is 65k). It wasnt a problem.

Biggest problem is for tanks when they cant find decent DDs who can at least wait for tank to aggro adds before they rush in aggro-ing everything and making a tank's job real hell. Or DDs that can't clear enemies fast and cause the tank to run out of resources. Try doing as a decent DD with a mediocre DD the Orb boss in vDoM and then try to do it as a tank with low dps DDs. A Nightmare on DoM Street.

This actually doesn't bother me all that much. We have ranged taunts, and chains. And as for resources, I spec to make sure that isn't a problem either. My biggest issue is simply low DPS from the DDs. If a Trash pull takes 5 minutes, I know the group isn't worth sticking around in. I can taunt and pull after a DD rushes in before me, but I can't make them better players.

Swordancer

Game should be just more attracitve to play as a tank. Dungeon finder shoud be replaced with something else. It's not like there is some magical solution for every problem but the problem is lack of updates that might change current state. It's never like one solution can fix all problems but a bunch of them actually can help to reduce the problem to the state that it is no longer so frustrating. I only gave few example solutions. Lobby with the list of groups can work, arena can work, double drops for tank can work, doing nothing won't. It just makes this game bleeding and we all know how much trouble can bleeding damage cause.

buttaface

Rungar wrote: »

This is a great game but it does have two glaring weak spots. You see both of them easily with the groupfinder.

1) The dps system is broken, and i believe that automation is far more widespread than people want to admit. This is why weaving has to go ( light attack on global timer), -300 weapon and spell dmg debuff on block for 3 seconds and a +15% dmg to all skills is required.

2) the dlc dungeons are linear one shot dodge fests with no depth. The throw yourself at it until you succeed model is not compatible with the groupfinder at all. Dungeons should have global mechanics. Leave the trial mechanic gameplay to the trials where that "progression" model is supported. Accomplishes two things: makes it easier for those who automate and makes the dungeon itself a oneshot dodgefest. You complete it once and dont go back or you just avoid it altogether.

keep complaining though about no tanks, long waits, fake roles, performance and lag....

Excellent post that highlights two huge issues. And yeah, widespread macroing is the reason there is such resistance to a better combat system, and has been the same in these games for decades now. Just add a decoder ring to "how will this combat system change affect my macro edge?" to any material changes to combat in ESO.

MudcrabAttack

I noticed there's a cycle to this game, you can que as DD and make friends with low CP tanks on occasion from your pug group if you're a helpful sort of pug DD. Or have tank buddies from a trial guild who like to do dailies. But the friends tend to gravitate towards just doing end game trials or making DDs themselves over time. My whole tanking friend list is always making a shift toward unavailable when it comes to doing dailies, and a lot of them just go DD when they learn a rotation. So eventually it comes back to square one, going into the que for half an hour. I firmly believe there is a tanking shortage for dailies.

Wyrd88

Rungar wrote: »

The dps system is broken, and i believe that automation is far more widespread than people want to admit. This is why weaving has to go ( light attack on global timer)

Ah, [snip], here we go again.
Why the hell people still obsessed with weaving? [snip]
Even if somehow you can get rid of weaving and ani canceling good player will adapt and'll remain good players, and bad players just find a new reason to be bad and complain about BrOkEn MeChAnICs!!1 like now weaving and such.

kathandira wrote: »

If a Trash pull takes 5 minutes, I know the group isn't worth sticking around in

Here the thing tho. Taunt lasts for 15 seconds, so if all that trash is still alive after 15 seconds - not your problem.

You can just stand there and watch they die. Quite fun sometimes.
And after recieving some salty speeches you can just leave, 'cause obviously, the group isn't worth sticking around.

[Edited to remove Profanity and Baiting]

Geekgirl

I have a tank! She's doing Vet Dungeons now and I am happy to say that I do a pretty good job. Any wipes are typically because we're figuring out mechanics.

If you find me in the Group Finder as my tank, odds are you'll pop into our group as a random DPS. I have a small guild of friends that I tank for. I don't bother tanking for anyone else.

My reason for that is simply because as I was learning how to tank and I was popping into the group finder, I would very often get a high level DPS (usually one of those folks with the lightning form) who would ignore my, "Hey there! New tank here..." lead in and just bolt ahead and move around mobs and go from boss to boss.

We would slow and kill the mobs and said DPS would just kill whatever boss they were at and continue on.

It was really frustrating.

If you've played a tank you know that you have to learn how to manage your bosses, figure out mechanics and generally get the lay of things. It is impossible to do that if someone is zipping ahead being a little murder tornado and not letting others do their jobs.

Oh, and yeah! I absolutely can initiate kicks, and do, but to have to do that almost every other run? No thanks.

And now that I have a dedicated group of people to run with and can manage the hard fun stuff, why the heck would I want to do so with people who were too impatient to help me learn in the first place?

josiahva

I main a tank and pug all the time, though I usually restrict the dungeons I run to vet DLC ones only(except the daily random).

1. Tanking is enjoyable in this game. An AOE taunt would make tanking LESS enjoyable, not more.
2. Tanking takes a certain type of personality...this is the most important thing to understand about tanking. Sure...anyone can tank...but those tanks who give up and leave at the first group wipe DO NOT HAVE THE PERSONALITY NEEDED. If you aren't patient, if you expect a smooth run every time...tanking is not for you...especially pug tanking.
3. Tanking is high-pressure in any type of difficult content. This ties into #2, if you don't have the mindset to handle group wipes being your fault if you make a mistake...you probably aren't going to be tanking. Any other role can die and the group still has a chance of surviving...but if the tank goes down in HM on a lot of these vet DLC dungeons, its almost a guaranteed wipe. I look at this as no big deal myself....everyone makes mistakes, but when I make mistakes my group pays, so its on me to choose my sets and skills carefully before going into a given fight.
4. Tank is the most dynamic role...we do not have rotations per-se....we do have a couple partial rotations we use, but we always have to look out for changing battlefield conditions and be able to react accordingly. Unlike other roles, we have to invest in all 3 stats...health is important...as is stam....but also magicka. Unlike the other roles, we also have to have more skill lines open and skills available. On my main tank, pretty much every combat skill line from bow to dual weild to 2 hander to destro to resto is maxed, along with psijiic, mages guild, etc etc. We simply need a larger toolbox than the other roles...which means a more developed character...new toons simply do not have as many skills unlocked, so those tanks are less versatile. Right now on my main tank my default pug setup is S&B front bar with resto staff back bar. This allows me to buff DPS with combat prayer if healer isnt running it, emergency aid in the form of healing ward if one of the DPS drops really low on health...and still be able to throw out an orb every now and then(even if healer is as well...healer needs rss as much as anyone else). This type of backbar support is something you don't start out doing as a tank, its something you slowly weave into your gameplay as you gain experience and notice that you can be doing something other than holding block, after you have done your tanking stuff like grouping up enemies and taunting whatever needs to be(and debuffs).

When you add all of this together, what you come up with is that if you are a new tank in this game, it is VERY difficult to learn what you need to because you might not have all the skills you need, and with the mess normal pugs are(the DPS aggroing everything in sight, messing up every single pull) even if you have the correct temperment to tank you will either not learn quickly, or become quickly discouraged. The people who always want an AOE taunt are a victim of DPS running in first and messing up pulls(this does not only happen in pugs btw, been in plenty of pre-made groups where the DPS do this as well).

I remember reading an article that there was a study that MMO roles could be comparable to personality types...IE, ranged DPS tended to be high strung personalities quicker to anger, whereas tanks tended to be calm and slow to anger(obviously a gross generalization, but there are elements of truth in it). I think there enough truth to it that you do gravitate toward a given role dependent on your personality....and if that is true, it seems that tanks are rarer simply by virtue of their personality(probably 3 DPS for every 1 tank)...which is then exacerbated by the role restrictions in the group finder...leading to long wait times and an artificial scarcity of tanks that would not be nearly as bad if you could choose what group configurations you want to queue for. If you want to run a 4DPS group...more power to you, if tanks and healers are no longer needed, so be it....I am certainly not one to dictate that you HAVE to take a tank or healer in a group if you want to run 4 DPS. There are enough dungeons that is going to be a rough run if you choose to do so, but it should be an option. In the end, I am sure most would opt for the classic 2/1/1 anyway.

Jpk0012

1) It gets old seeing people do the same exact stupid things over and over, and then blame every one else.
2) Not needed in content.
3) Role farther reduced, because one shots are frequent. Why sacrifice all DPS to be one shot if you miss a roll?
4) A lot of stress when you could just be sitting there pew pewing dodging red circles.
5) Frustrating to see DPS have lower DPS than a tank.

zaria

visionality wrote: »

I think this discussion is overblowing the subject. @Donny_Vito has nailed down the main problem: An end-game tank cannot do much else then end-game content, even overland stuff is sitting badly on his build (even when he adapts). So especially ppl with lower cp will always build a hybrid that enables them to continue leveling. But hybrids hit their skill ceiling somewhere in the vet DLC dungeons, so there is fewer and fewer tanks who dare doing the toughest dungeons. More often than not, a lower-cp tank insta-quits when he accidentially ends up in Lair of Maarselok or Moongrave Fane.

When it comes to the Arena-idea of @Swordancer, I doubt any long-term player doing dailies would be willing to 'prove' his setup and ability every single time before doing a dungeon. So basically you would just further reduce the number of available tanks.

Agree, having to do some test each time would be pointless and locking in skills and gear would be directly harmful.
Now having something like an undaunted academy where you had to qualify for roles for different characters had been nice

etchedpixels

At least for normal level you can tank fine with a more solo oriented character, and then switch from sword/board to 2H or other for solo play (and also maybe swap armour sets - nice to see they've upped sword singer ;-) ). Yes it needs more skill points but there are plenty out there.

I'm happy tanking normals for guildmates. No way am I going to tank for a random group of people. I don't need to - there's always guild people who need a tank, and we can sit on guild discord and work together in a civilised fashion.

If you are a squishy you should definitely try tanking as well. It'll make you a far more understanding squishy and probably a better one ;-)

ForzaRammer

i'd be use dungeon finder a lot more if low output dps are kicked instead of babied

ZaroktheImmortal

Aznarb wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

As a healer I often Tank most pledge everyday running with 3 DD.
Their is only few DLC one where I can't, otherwise, it's just about taunt and dodge.

I'll probably made a tank soon though, still more useful than healer these day. I've even take a long break from the game and came back a bit after greymoor, it was just so boring to play as "healer" where most of the time I switched to full DD cuz healer is not needed when your friend/group are good enough.

Tank have lot of utility, but healer ? Outside of trial ? Mehh, the only moment heal are useful is when running with casual or progression player, that all.

Healers can buff the team add to their stamina and magika debuff enemies. My olorime boost team dps. I can off-set them with lightning staff(yes I know a lot of tanks use this too) I can restore their stamina and magika with well various things. I can use debuffs on bosses. Healer role is much more than restoring health just as tank role has more than just taunting enemies. The general view that this is all they are and that we can just dps through all the content is the general reason why random groups are a mess.

Don't get me wrong, I perfectly know what healer and tank job are. But in vetDG even dlc, you extremely rarely need a healer when you don't pug. Doesn't matter the buff/debuff in 4man content, if you've 3 dps or even 4 if the tank play hybrid, you'll get them done way faster.
And that just because of how eso work, the faster you blow thing away, the less dmg you'll take. Their is a reason why even unchained title aka most difficult 4man achievement, is easier with 3 DD + 1 tank in olo/yolna/sympho (with altar).

That exactly what I said, standard comp are good with low skill player (not an insult to these player) but once you and your friend become very good, as a healer that the end of the road outside of vTrial.
And that extremely frustrating when you manage to be good enough to clear all as healer and then, the only reward for all of your team work to being good, is that they don't need healer anymore.

I know my English is not perfect but you get the point I think. The true support role on this game is tank. Healer are just buff bot. Their is nothing hard to heal in this game, the only thing you've to care is buff/debuff uptime, that not challenging or interesting and that why I look more and more on the Tank side.

I mean from that argument you may as well say that tanks are just buff bots. Buffs however can add quite a lot as well as debuffs. I mean if the goal is to just deal as much damage to clear things away without any need of buffs you may as well just go four dps and no support roles.

BlueRaven

I had a very, very, very radical idea.

Make sword and shield another type of dps, (like duel wield, bows, etc.) and then just eliminate the need for any tanks.

Dungeons become a healer and three dps’s of any type.

(Look, I know this will probably be wildly unpopular, but it would solve a lot of issues.)

Ok, I will let you all carry on. I have not really thought this through really, just an impulse post. If you really hate it, it’s fine, just throwing an idea out there.

MyKillv2.0

ForzaRammer wrote: »

i'd be use dungeon finder a lot more if low output dps are kicked instead of babied

The dungeon finder is probably better without you, if that is your attitude.

buttaface

josiahva wrote: »

I main a tank and pug all the time, though I usually restrict the dungeons I run to vet DLC ones only(except the daily random).

1. Tanking is enjoyable in this game. An AOE taunt would make tanking LESS enjoyable, not more.
2. Tanking takes a certain type of personality...this is the most important thing to understand about tanking. Sure...anyone can tank...but those tanks who give up and leave at the first group wipe DO NOT HAVE THE PERSONALITY NEEDED. If you aren't patient, if you expect a smooth run every time...tanking is not for you...especially pug tanking.
3. Tanking is high-pressure in any type of difficult content. This ties into #2, if you don't have the mindset to handle group wipes being your fault if you make a mistake...you probably aren't going to be tanking. Any other role can die and the group still has a chance of surviving...but if the tank goes down in HM on a lot of these vet DLC dungeons, its almost a guaranteed wipe. I look at this as no big deal myself....everyone makes mistakes, but when I make mistakes my group pays, so its on me to choose my sets and skills carefully before going into a given fight.
4. Tank is the most dynamic role...we do not have rotations per-se....we do have a couple partial rotations we use, but we always have to look out for changing battlefield conditions and be able to react accordingly. Unlike other roles, we have to invest in all 3 stats...health is important...as is stam....but also magicka. Unlike the other roles, we also have to have more skill lines open and skills available. On my main tank, pretty much every combat skill line from bow to dual weild to 2 hander to destro to resto is maxed, along with psijiic, mages guild, etc etc. We simply need a larger toolbox than the other roles...which means a more developed character...new toons simply do not have as many skills unlocked, so those tanks are less versatile. Right now on my main tank my default pug setup is S&B front bar with resto staff back bar. This allows me to buff DPS with combat prayer if healer isnt running it, emergency aid in the form of healing ward if one of the DPS drops really low on health...and still be able to throw out an orb every now and then(even if healer is as well...healer needs rss as much as anyone else). This type of backbar support is something you don't start out doing as a tank, its something you slowly weave into your gameplay as you gain experience and notice that you can be doing something other than holding block, after you have done your tanking stuff like grouping up enemies and taunting whatever needs to be(and debuffs).

When you add all of this together, what you come up with is that if you are a new tank in this game, it is VERY difficult to learn what you need to because you might not have all the skills you need, and with the mess normal pugs are(the DPS aggroing everything in sight, messing up every single pull) even if you have the correct temperment to tank you will either not learn quickly, or become quickly discouraged. The people who always want an AOE taunt are a victim of DPS running in first and messing up pulls(this does not only happen in pugs btw, been in plenty of pre-made groups where the DPS do this as well).

I remember reading an article that there was a study that MMO roles could be comparable to personality types...IE, ranged DPS tended to be high strung personalities quicker to anger, whereas tanks tended to be calm and slow to anger(obviously a gross generalization, but there are elements of truth in it). I think there enough truth to it that you do gravitate toward a given role dependent on your personality....and if that is true, it seems that tanks are rarer simply by virtue of their personality(probably 3 DPS for every 1 tank)...which is then exacerbated by the role restrictions in the group finder...leading to long wait times and an artificial scarcity of tanks that would not be nearly as bad if you could choose what group configurations you want to queue for. If you want to run a 4DPS group...more power to you, if tanks and healers are no longer needed, so be it....I am certainly not one to dictate that you HAVE to take a tank or healer in a group if you want to run 4 DPS. There are enough dungeons that is going to be a rough run if you choose to do so, but it should be an option. In the end, I am sure most would opt for the classic 2/1/1 anyway.

Disagree with points 1-4.

Bad play and getting annoyed by it is solely the problem of the bad player, not the ones playing correctly, and doesn't imply some kind of lack of proper temperament.

Aznarb

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

As a healer I often Tank most pledge everyday running with 3 DD.
Their is only few DLC one where I can't, otherwise, it's just about taunt and dodge.

I'll probably made a tank soon though, still more useful than healer these day. I've even take a long break from the game and came back a bit after greymoor, it was just so boring to play as "healer" where most of the time I switched to full DD cuz healer is not needed when your friend/group are good enough.

Tank have lot of utility, but healer ? Outside of trial ? Mehh, the only moment heal are useful is when running with casual or progression player, that all.

Healers can buff the team add to their stamina and magika debuff enemies. My olorime boost team dps. I can off-set them with lightning staff(yes I know a lot of tanks use this too) I can restore their stamina and magika with well various things. I can use debuffs on bosses. Healer role is much more than restoring health just as tank role has more than just taunting enemies. The general view that this is all they are and that we can just dps through all the content is the general reason why random groups are a mess.

Don't get me wrong, I perfectly know what healer and tank job are. But in vetDG even dlc, you extremely rarely need a healer when you don't pug. Doesn't matter the buff/debuff in 4man content, if you've 3 dps or even 4 if the tank play hybrid, you'll get them done way faster.
And that just because of how eso work, the faster you blow thing away, the less dmg you'll take. Their is a reason why even unchained title aka most difficult 4man achievement, is easier with 3 DD + 1 tank in olo/yolna/sympho (with altar).

That exactly what I said, standard comp are good with low skill player (not an insult to these player) but once you and your friend become very good, as a healer that the end of the road outside of vTrial.
And that extremely frustrating when you manage to be good enough to clear all as healer and then, the only reward for all of your team work to being good, is that they don't need healer anymore.

I know my English is not perfect but you get the point I think. The true support role on this game is tank. Healer are just buff bot. Their is nothing hard to heal in this game, the only thing you've to care is buff/debuff uptime, that not challenging or interesting and that why I look more and more on the Tank side.

I mean from that argument you may as well say that tanks are just buff bots. Buffs however can add quite a lot as well as debuffs. I mean if the goal is to just deal as much damage to clear things away without any need of buffs you may as well just go four dps and no support roles.

Tank are needed in some DLC cuz boss/mob hit to hard and to often to be perma-dodge.
They're far more useful than healer.
And for run at 4 DD, yes, we already do that most of the time, but I don't find that fun, DD is nont what I like to play.

josiahva

buttaface wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I main a tank and pug all the time, though I usually restrict the dungeons I run to vet DLC ones only(except the daily random).

1. Tanking is enjoyable in this game. An AOE taunt would make tanking LESS enjoyable, not more.
2. Tanking takes a certain type of personality...this is the most important thing to understand about tanking. Sure...anyone can tank...but those tanks who give up and leave at the first group wipe DO NOT HAVE THE PERSONALITY NEEDED. If you aren't patient, if you expect a smooth run every time...tanking is not for you...especially pug tanking.
3. Tanking is high-pressure in any type of difficult content. This ties into #2, if you don't have the mindset to handle group wipes being your fault if you make a mistake...you probably aren't going to be tanking. Any other role can die and the group still has a chance of surviving...but if the tank goes down in HM on a lot of these vet DLC dungeons, its almost a guaranteed wipe. I look at this as no big deal myself....everyone makes mistakes, but when I make mistakes my group pays, so its on me to choose my sets and skills carefully before going into a given fight.
4. Tank is the most dynamic role...we do not have rotations per-se....we do have a couple partial rotations we use, but we always have to look out for changing battlefield conditions and be able to react accordingly. Unlike other roles, we have to invest in all 3 stats...health is important...as is stam....but also magicka. Unlike the other roles, we also have to have more skill lines open and skills available. On my main tank, pretty much every combat skill line from bow to dual weild to 2 hander to destro to resto is maxed, along with psijiic, mages guild, etc etc. We simply need a larger toolbox than the other roles...which means a more developed character...new toons simply do not have as many skills unlocked, so those tanks are less versatile. Right now on my main tank my default pug setup is S&B front bar with resto staff back bar. This allows me to buff DPS with combat prayer if healer isnt running it, emergency aid in the form of healing ward if one of the DPS drops really low on health...and still be able to throw out an orb every now and then(even if healer is as well...healer needs rss as much as anyone else). This type of backbar support is something you don't start out doing as a tank, its something you slowly weave into your gameplay as you gain experience and notice that you can be doing something other than holding block, after you have done your tanking stuff like grouping up enemies and taunting whatever needs to be(and debuffs).

When you add all of this together, what you come up with is that if you are a new tank in this game, it is VERY difficult to learn what you need to because you might not have all the skills you need, and with the mess normal pugs are(the DPS aggroing everything in sight, messing up every single pull) even if you have the correct temperment to tank you will either not learn quickly, or become quickly discouraged. The people who always want an AOE taunt are a victim of DPS running in first and messing up pulls(this does not only happen in pugs btw, been in plenty of pre-made groups where the DPS do this as well).

I remember reading an article that there was a study that MMO roles could be comparable to personality types...IE, ranged DPS tended to be high strung personalities quicker to anger, whereas tanks tended to be calm and slow to anger(obviously a gross generalization, but there are elements of truth in it). I think there enough truth to it that you do gravitate toward a given role dependent on your personality....and if that is true, it seems that tanks are rarer simply by virtue of their personality(probably 3 DPS for every 1 tank)...which is then exacerbated by the role restrictions in the group finder...leading to long wait times and an artificial scarcity of tanks that would not be nearly as bad if you could choose what group configurations you want to queue for. If you want to run a 4DPS group...more power to you, if tanks and healers are no longer needed, so be it....I am certainly not one to dictate that you HAVE to take a tank or healer in a group if you want to run 4 DPS. There are enough dungeons that is going to be a rough run if you choose to do so, but it should be an option. In the end, I am sure most would opt for the classic 2/1/1 anyway.

Disagree with points 1-4.

Bad play and getting annoyed by it is solely the problem of the bad player, not the ones playing correctly, and doesn't imply some kind of lack of proper temperament.

So you go into the group finder expecting every group you get is going to be perfect? Zero groups in the game are perfect(pre-made or pug) and if you as a tank rage quit after the first wipe, you DO have a temperment problem...or at the very very least you shouldn't be using group finder.

You also disagree that tank is high pressure? I mean, its only a game in the end...but of all the roles, tank is the highest pressure one from my experience...hard to make the argument its not, but I am open to my mind being changed.

Tank isn't the most dynamic? This is possible, healer is just as dynamic, possibly more so in certain situations....DPS is certainly not nearly as dynamic....aside from adding movement in, your goal for DPS is to literally do the same thing over and over again....that is pretty static.

As for the personality thing....that much is just speculation and observation. I have seen DPS rage quit pugs much more often than tanks(though the data set is limited since I mostly tank, but I do DPS or heal from time to time). I can count on one hand the number of times I have stopped tanking a pug because I was angry. I rarely ever quit a pug unless my computer crashes or the DPS is too low to actually complete the dungeon at all. I don't care if it takes hours to finish a dungeon, I will stick it out through several DPS drops...it simply does not bother me. The only real requirement is that there is enough DPS to actually get past the checks. You do see tanks quit pugs...but usually because the DPS isn't high enough for them...which is perfectly fair....but you rarely see them quit after raging at other group members and generally being toxic in group chat. If you don't have patience you simply aren't going to be tanking pugs. Period. Patience is a personality trait....therefore there are some elements of truth to that study...even if you apply it only to pug groups. I have no idea how many times I have seen DPS say something like this. "I am doing over 70% of group DPS" in a pug group....which is often meant as a passive aggressive dig at the 2nd DPS(though not always, sometimes its just bragging on the part of the 1st DPS)...it makes for a rather toxic run because the 2nd DPS gets defensive and sometimes the 2 start fighting right there in chat.

madrab73

Lazy one shot mechanics make tanking vet dlc a chore. Much rather do something fun

Major_Lag

BlueRaven wrote: »

I had a very, very, very radical idea.

Make sword and shield another type of dps, (like duel wield, bows, etc.) and then just eliminate the need for any tanks.

Dungeons become a healer and three dps’s of any type.

(Look, I know this will probably be wildly unpopular, but it would solve a lot of issues.)

Ok, I will let you all carry on. I have not really thought this through really, just an impulse post. If you really hate it, it’s fine, just throwing an idea out there.

ZOS has already been there, done that.
It didn't work worth squat, and ended up being nerfed to Oblivion eventually. First the SnB skill line got nerfed hard, and then there were further blanket nerfs to bash damage (in part as an answer to the Goliath bash cheese in PvP).

To be more precise - it was quite seriously broken in PvP, since it allowed building for a relatively high damage output while also enjoying the benefits of the best defensive weapon skill line in the game.
In other words, you could build for both being very tanky and still deal a fair amount of damage, which is exactly the thing that we can't have in PvP. Which is why we can't have nice things in general.

buttaface

josiahva wrote: »

So you go into the group finder expecting every group you get is going to be perfect?

Starts off with a fallacy, stopped reading there.

@thread, on the topic of the influx of bads in GF since the start of 2020/Covid, the ratio of bads in pug GF dungeon groups seems to have gone down a bit once school started IME. Was around 70-80% bad pre aggro pullers/unnecessary rushers in teams, now down to 50% or so. Hope this trend continues.

When bads pre pull aggro and don't let me tank the dungeon, I leave. Does that mean I have an attitude or disposition problem? No, they are just bad and their bad play is 100% on them, not me. To clarify, I have no problem with low dps in the lower dungeons and some lower vets, that just comes with the turf. It's specifically the pre aggro bads that I am talking about, and there is no rationalization possible for it other than they are simply BAD.

josiahva

buttaface wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

So you go into the group finder expecting every group you get is going to be perfect?

Starts off with a fallacy, stopped reading there.

@thread, on the topic of the influx of bads in GF since the start of 2020/Covid, the ratio of bads in pug GF dungeon groups seems to have gone down a bit once school started IME. Was around 70-80% bad pre aggro pullers/unnecessary rushers in teams, now down to 50% or so. Hope this trend continues.

When bads pre pull aggro and don't let me tank the dungeon, I leave. Does that mean I have an attitude or disposition problem? No, they are just bad and their bad play is 100% on them, not me. To clarify, I have no problem with low dps in the lower dungeons and some lower vets, that just comes with the turf. It's specifically the pre aggro bads that I am talking about, and there is no rationalization possible for it other than they are simply BAD.

I have been known to drop a time or two after pre-pulling DPS keep pulling even after I ask them twice not to. I figure they either truly do not need a tank(in which case, more power to them) or that they are just going to keep doing it no matter how nicely I ask...in which case I don't want to be part of that group anyway since its doomed to devolve into toxicity and general finger-pointing. However, I realize its far more instructive to let them wipe on a mob and then explain why they shouldnt be aggroing mobs(especially in DLC dungeons). Sometimes they truly do not realize what they are doing...but most times they just think are superman...in any case, that situation its always perfectly acceptable to leave. It is sometimes funnier just to follow along and watch them die though...especially when they turn around and start blaming the tank for not tanking.

Shanehere

A good tank is already sought after anyways, so there often isn't a need to use Group Finder.

PUGing as a Tank can be abysmal because if you end up with two terrible DPS the dungeon takes forever to complete. Tanks can only do so much and can't really carry.

ayu_fever

good tanks and healers will PUG group content.
great tanks and healers in those PUGs get invites to guilds.

Merforum

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Did vBRF HM last week with guildmates as a tank.... It was the first I stepped in that dungeon in vet mode and HM seemed like a joke... I join pugs and vBC2 may look like a nightmare.... So why pug as a tank?

Also, game is suffering from serious balancing issues that no one from ZOS seems to care much about. Did vSCP HM with my magsorc and the 3DD run was easier than the casual 1T 1H 2DD setup. Why is this even possible? The answer is simple. Doing veteran content has nothing to do with avoiding or healing high dmg but being able to roll-dodge and avoid 1-shots. That's it. A birdy DD can easily complete the hardest HM without a healer as far as he can roll dodge and step out of aoe. Does that make sense to you or feels normal? Not for me at least.

It's a game built around satisfying DDs and favoring high DPS. Tanks and healers are considered second category roles...

This is so true. Just watch any Alcast solo vid and you can see literally all dungeons can be completed SOLO if you are an expert roll-dodger and use UNDO ULT (can't remember name of morph but the one that allows you to go back 4 second even after you get grabbed by boss mechanic that usually required teammate to bash). I think they should definitely change roll dodging to only REDUCE damage (like 75%) not eliminate it entirely. Then make blocking much stronger, where you can get maybe 90% reduction with true tank. Then a healer and tank become more important and not treated like 'support'.

BTW I think DPS are just support for tanks, good tanks setup the battle field, direct the action and good DPS follow directions, every PUG dungeon I have done where that was the case (even the years of me being DPS) it is always better/faster. That being said you can literally run every dungeon with 2,3,4 PUG DPS who can roll dodge well, and ignore any tank/healer suggestion and train newbies the wrong way. For those DPS who can essentially solo dungeons, when you run ahead like that you are teaching newer people bad habits that when they try it themselves turns out bad for everyone so don't be so arrogant if you use GF.

Merforum

zaria wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

I think this discussion is overblowing the subject. @Donny_Vito has nailed down the main problem: An end-game tank cannot do much else then end-game content, even overland stuff is sitting badly on his build (even when he adapts). So especially ppl with lower cp will always build a hybrid that enables them to continue leveling. But hybrids hit their skill ceiling somewhere in the vet DLC dungeons, so there is fewer and fewer tanks who dare doing the toughest dungeons. More often than not, a lower-cp tank insta-quits when he accidentially ends up in Lair of Maarselok or Moongrave Fane.

When it comes to the Arena-idea of @Swordancer, I doubt any long-term player doing dailies would be willing to 'prove' his setup and ability every single time before doing a dungeon. So basically you would just further reduce the number of available tanks.

Agree, having to do some test each time would be pointless and locking in skills and gear would be directly harmful.
Now having something like an undaunted academy where you had to qualify for roles for different characters had been nice

You are right that arena before each queue is completely ridiculous. But I think they can fix it by a few check boxes
1. Experienced player doing daily QUICKLY (they can auto check undaunted maxed out, and how many times this toon completed particular dungeon, if passing all check, you get queued with other experienced players)
2. Experienced player, leveling toon (undaunted probably not maxxed but can be put in queue with beginners)
3. Experienced player wanting to help beginners (definitely get matched with 2-3 beginners)
4. Beginners (undaunted not max, CP low, never done dungeon)

My point is a lot of stuff can be checked automatically by the game, to match up groups better. And these 4 check boxes can be added to GF to all people to choose which kind of group they want to be in at that moment.

OH, here's another easy fix. I queue as tank mostly but also healer and even though it pops up very fast, nearly every single time everyone except 1 DPS accepts. I sit there waiting for a minute or so to see 'invite declined'. WHAT? I think everyone that has checked the box 'Auto-accept' should be grouped together so someone doesn't decline and make you wait longer. As DPS when the other DPS declines I have to wait a lot longer, this selfish stuff has to go. Also I don't know why GF selects 4 people only, the next 5 or so DPS should ALL get the invite and the first 2 to accept should be let in, that way declining will be eliminated and make overall queueing go faster.