Are tanks dying spieces in 2020?

Majkiy

I've been tanking since 2018 and rarely touched any other role, got myself a DD and healer but tanking is the most fun for me.
What I tend to do when I am in mood to help some "poor waiting players" in random finder is, that if they pull before me, they tank it. When they die I give them a "speach". 9/10 they just go in line. I got myself a build I thought for myself that makes me almost unkillable and the frustration of having a noob healer is beyond me. It's not a selfish build may I add, I use Yolnak with it 100% times.

No content has been hard for me and enough challenging. I completed most of triple dung achieves with my group and trials are mostly a joke, I find it hard to find some fights fun.

I get it that some "tanks" are frustrated by having fake healers or bad DDs but from what I seen some tanks should really accept the fact, that they are bad as well even though they don't think so. I don't need healer in dungeons at all, I am fine by myself for most of the time. In trial that's something else of course. It's not hard to get better and stop blaming others.

svendf

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

They should really just rename tank and healer to “support”. Than allow 3 DD 1 support to queue for GF.

So you wanna the que problem moved to healer or tank (support) ? So you can get your three dd´s. Are you payed by some to kill ESO.?

There are ESO customers out there, who are not able to play a dd for reasons. So why not just make them quit so you can get your three dd´s and play content you are not able to do in a normal two dd -h -t setup.

Or maybe I misunderstood your post

Banana

Mine retired over 2 years ago. Just had enough of group activities.

TwinLamps

I can speak only for myself.
I am far from end game tank
I use easy to get specs and usually tank on my alt accounts, to get undaunted and similar, as preparation for PvP.
Pugging vDLC dungeons as tank is mostly a chore.
One shot mechanics that you must dodge made me question am I a tank or a rolly polly blade.
Cant say I enjoy these a lot.

MajThorax

In my opinion zos should give incentives to tanks and healers so more people play these roles. Double drops from each boss in veteran dungeons for example. They do most of the hard work anyway.

AndrewQ84

I tank. I have three different tanks that I run everyday. I complete all the pledges and I have fun running vet dungeons. I NEVER que for random vet unless I have a full guild group with on my tanks though. Why? Why should I subject myself to how other people feel I should do my job? Why should I deal with knobby elitist people who think they now everything in the entire game? Why should I subject myself to the headaches of either not enough dps when I tank or a tank that has no idea what they are doing when I run randoms? I think most people who play tanks also feel this way and would rather run with guild groups than solo. The last thing I need is a dps telling me how to tank when they can't even understand basic mechanics and can't pull enough dps to complete whatever it is we are doing or who are in such a rush that they leave everyone behind and then blame the group for dying. While I am more understanding of this in normal dungeons, I simply cannot deal with it in vet dungeons.

BlueRaven

MajThorax wrote: »

In my opinion zos should give incentives to tanks and healers so more people play these roles. Double drops from each boss in veteran dungeons for example. They do most of the hard work anyway.

The problem here is fake tanks. How would the system know if the spot is being done by an actual tank?

Second, I don’t think double drops or rewards will get me to pug a tanking spot.

Wolfchild07

95+% of the content doesn't need meta tanks. I think another problem is people get told you NEED this set and you NEED that set. You don't unless you're doing vet trials or somesuch. Get some flavour into your tanks, have some fun with different setups. I have a health warden tank with leeching, overwhelming surge, and earthgore (or Ilambris if I don't need the extra healing). I could solo dragons with it (if other people didn't come along eventually and jump in). It's alot of fun.

biminirwb17_ESO

Saw a person offering 40k gold for a tank to join their group today. Tanking can be rewarding.

Swordancer

Ok, thank you for so many anwsers. I readed all your comments and it looksl like the main problem here is the dungeon finder. I don't understand then. If dungeon finder is such a waste of time then why the developers do not want to do anything about it? Even arena for build verification before joining any dungeon queue or some CP filters is better solutions than what we have now. I mean we also can support new players or low lvl characters by getting higher drop rate right? You pick the right option in dungeon finder and you will join low level group. Is it so hard to figure something out and just do it, test it on PTS?

I mean we can't fix all problems of the game by looking for a workaround right? All these addons, zone chat slang... Imagine how new players feel about it. They use this dungeon finder just to realize it's a such a waste of time. I mean new players are money right? Then why to keep it that way for so many years? Why to scare new players away? They do not know all these workarounds right?

I've been playing for years so I'm in a few guilds but I remember much better times when finding tank in Craglorn on zone chat wasn't such a big problem. Problem with guilds is that it is also not quite much easy sometimes. It's like begging... Guys play with me becouse I can't find the right group to do what I want. New DLC dungeons are also so buggy they fix exploits immediately but bugs not at all. These are also harder and harder. I just feel this game is stuck, new DLC, chapters, it's all the same, all the same problems, all of them works the same way.

The dungeon finder problem should be solved. New mechanics should be developed in the next dungeons becouse as I wrote, each new dungeon makes this problems bigger. It's not hard to notice by reading your comments that something is not right. I mean a lot of things. I get it, you have a different opinions but just enter Craglorn, stay there for a longer time. All the same trials on chat, tanks are hard to find and that's not problem of the community and fake tanks.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

I can't speak for other tanks, but for dungeons I very seldom have to use the group finder to get a group. Guild mates are almost always up for a run if I announce in chat that a tank is available. A tank, when played reasonably well, does make for an easy, smooth dungeon run even in normal mode.

When I do sign up for a random group, it can be a pain, even in normal dungeon, and I fully understand if people just try to avoid it. If I get a group that is beyond redemption, with DDs doing extremely low damage, ninja pulling everything despite being asked not to, dying to standing in red while the healer does basically nothing at all, and quite often pushing all the blame on me, I just take the blame and ask to be kicked (letting them find out for themselves that I was not the problem), or just leave and wait 10 minutes to get another group. I seldom have to ditch a group like that, and I have never ditched two in a row. Granted, I don't use the group finder for vet dungeons any longer. The success rate for those was too low for me to bother with it.

To end this on a positive note, I will say I had a really nice run through nWGT last night, with a random group that struggled to even deal a five digit group DPS and wiped repeatedly on the first boss. I tanked some bosses, namely the trio of Imperials and the blue fire atronach, but for most fights I switched to my solo build and dealt a meager 10k dps. Playing mostly healers and tanks I'm really terrible at dealing damage, but nonetheless I effectively doubled the group damage while also providing some assist with emergency heals. This was all good fun, and the group was very nice, social and appreciative of my efforts to guide them through the fights via chat. I did considerably more than my fair share of damage, especially considering that I was the designated tank, but I certainly didn't carry the group, because I wouldn't be able to solo that place. It was a group effort, and we pulled through.

I like a challenge, no matter at what level it occurs, and not giving up on that group proved to be a nice experience. If you play a tank and stick to running with friends, try a pug some time. Sometimes it's great fun, and when it isn't, well, you can just leave. And if nothing else, running with a bad group once in a while will make you appreciate your friends even more.

ZaroktheImmortal

For harder content tanks are most certainly needed. Far too often though you get fake tanks and/or fake healers cause most want to dps and they think they can get through it faster this way. Though often people forget that support roles also provide buffs and also tanks are good for getting mobs into one neat pile for dps to clean up faster. If you work as a group you can clear things quite fast. But everyone wants to go the route of just rushing through the dungeons. Hell too many dungeons people would run away from the group. Had one run ahead of the group died then all the swarms that killed him ran back to us and we had to deal with it. I swear ESO is full of the LEROY JENKINS types.

ZaroktheImmortal

Oh had another one I joined as healer it was a vet dungeon two in the group were rushing ahead one of them died a few times in doing so and another of our group we had a whole lot of enemies we had to get passed cause they didn't even bother dealing with many of them and the other guy quit then I was left with the two trying to rush through everything so I ended up just standing back and clapping at this point I figured if they want to do it all by themselves I'd let them they got pissy and kicked me but meh was better than dealing with people like that. Requed pretty fast and actually got a group who worked together so it all worked out in the end.

Dr_Rektar

As a tank who has all buff sets, uses ele drain etc in GF. i still have often groups where i do 18% of damage. Is dps so hard in this game?

ZaroktheImmortal

Dr_Rektar wrote: »

As a tank who has all buff sets, uses ele drain etc in GF. i still have often groups where i do 18% of damage. Is dps so hard in this game?

I can beat that. I had a dungeon where I was doing 70% of the damage as the healer.

AndrewQ84

Swordancer wrote: »

Ok, thank you for so many anwsers. I readed all your comments and it looksl like the main problem here is the dungeon finder.

I think you're misunderstanding. The problem is not the dungeon finder. It's the general playerbase that's uses it. I understand not all players are like that, but at least for me, almost 3/4 of the people I que with in the dungeon finder under random are just not worth having the headache for. As someone said in another post and I have said, having some knobby 12 year old tell you how to run YOUR build when it's vet fungal grotto is just not fun. Most of us just decide to not deal with it and go with guild groups. I love running dungeons and I will use the finder when I dps. I only use the finder on normal dungeons when I tank, and that's rarely as I don't mind dealing with the headache or helping a fellow guildie out.

Aznarb

As a healer I often Tank most pledge everyday running with 3 DD.
Their is only few DLC one where I can't, otherwise, it's just about taunt and dodge.

I'll probably made a tank soon though, still more useful than healer these day. I've even take a long break from the game and came back a bit after greymoor, it was just so boring to play as "healer" where most of the time I switched to full DD cuz healer is not needed when your friend/group are good enough.

Tank have lot of utility, but healer ? Outside of trial ? Mehh, the only moment heal are useful is when running with casual or progression player, that all.

ZaroktheImmortal

Aznarb wrote: »

As a healer I often Tank most pledge everyday running with 3 DD.
Their is only few DLC one where I can't, otherwise, it's just about taunt and dodge.

I'll probably made a tank soon though, still more useful than healer these day. I've even take a long break from the game and came back a bit after greymoor, it was just so boring to play as "healer" where most of the time I switched to full DD cuz healer is not needed when your friend/group are good enough.

Tank have lot of utility, but healer ? Outside of trial ? Mehh, the only moment heal are useful is when running with casual or progression player, that all.

Healers can buff the team add to their stamina and magika debuff enemies. My olorime boost team dps. I can off-set them with lightning staff(yes I know a lot of tanks use this too) I can restore their stamina and magika with well various things. I can use debuffs on bosses. Healer role is much more than restoring health just as tank role has more than just taunting enemies. The general view that this is all they are and that we can just dps through all the content is the general reason why random groups are a mess.

RefLiberty

The problem is that DPS can tank all trash in dungeons, in normal at lest, so everyone just rush.b
This is easily fixable in buffing damage done by dungeon trash.
In wow there is no chance for DPS to run forward cos even trash will maul you to bloody puddle.

On the other hand, tanks don't have aoe taunt, so you can't just buff trash.

Those are two things to fix in order for dungeon to be properly set

Tank aoe taunt
Buff trash damage to discipline DPS who pull to bloody puddle.

Swordancer

@AndrewQ84, you are talking about community problems. You can't solve these by talking about it. When you join random group you have to be aware that some of these poeple are not so nice as you are. Some of the might be unexpirenced and some of them just using build that is good for something else or for nothing at all. The problem is probability. When you have a proper group you will be satisfied and you will finish the dungeon. The wrong people will expose other problem, they can just leave or blame others for failure which is thier personal problem. The problem is supported by the game itself. People are frustrated, they leave becouse they know the team is not able to finish it, they are looking for somone to blame. The players are exhausted with it.

Usually people with high level have good enough builds to finish all basic dungeons and most of the DLC dungeons on veteran. Dungeon finder doesn't make level based groups, doesn't verify builds, it's just too simple and it makes people you are talking about. It literally creates frustrates and madmen. Do you think that most players starting the adventure were like this all the time? They are just exhausted.

The game mechanics doesn't work. Tanks are rearest becouse this is support class and they get blame all the time loosing patient. In some dungeons it is also the most boring build to play. They are reare so guild finder ususally puts them in one team with low level people who are losing and that also kills them. Dungeons doesn't usually offer alternate path to finish it. This need to be changed becouse you can't just ask each parent of the players to raise them better.

You can only fix the game mechanics, guild finder and this is a problem that no one has tried to fix so far. Why not give it a try? How you are gonna be able to change it?

There is many way that problem could be solved, at least in some part just by simply changing the game for better.

Rungar

This is a great game but it does have two glaring weak spots. You see both of them easily with the groupfinder.

1) The dps system is broken, and i believe that automation is far more widespread than people want to admit. This is why weaving has to go ( light attack on global timer), -300 weapon and spell dmg debuff on block for 3 seconds and a +15% dmg to all skills is required.

2) the dlc dungeons are linear one shot dodge fests with no depth. The throw yourself at it until you succeed model is not compatible with the groupfinder at all. Dungeons should have global mechanics. Leave the trial mechanic gameplay to the trials where that "progression" model is supported. Accomplishes two things: makes it easier for those who automate and makes the dungeon itself a oneshot dodgefest. You complete it once and dont go back or you just avoid it altogether.

keep complaining though about no tanks, long waits, fake roles, performance and lag....

Donny_Vito

Yes, they definitely are. Everyone seems to want to play a DPS or some sort of hybrid tank so they can still do overland content and/or PvP. If you're an end-game tank, there is not much else to do besides end-game content. Sure, you can go to a Harrowstorm and poke everything there, but you're not doing hardly any damage which is why you need a group. And sure you can try to switch some of your skills and gear around, but unless you do a complete re-build you're not doing any notable damage compared to a pure DPS so you can clear some quests and grind out a WB...fun. All of this, and more, is why you just don't see many pure tanks around that aren't already in a dedicated group.

gatekeeper13

buttaface wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Doing veteran content has nothing to do with avoiding or healing high dmg but being able to roll-dodge and avoid 1-shots. That's it. A birdy DD can easily complete the hardest HM without a healer as far as he can roll dodge and step out of aoe. Does that make sense to you or feels normal? Not for me at least.

This is one of the big "known but not really discussed secrets" of ESO and other ESO-WOW gear treadmill type games, and plays into the topic also. it's almost all what we used to call "scripts" in the olden days, or memorizing levels as in a console game, rote learning, not anything like team tactical play. Once one learns the script and "puts it on farm mode" the challenge and fun is very limited. I think such games jumped the shark about 10 years ago, and have been on decline since, replaced by team tactical games with parkour, true aim.

I agree. But in ESO especially, tanking is maybe the least fun role than in any other big MMORPG. I was never a fan of WoW, never managed to like the game (although I was a big fan of Warcraft 2 and 3) but from what I ve read and heard from people who played/play both, tanking in WoW is a lot more important and fun than it is in ESO. In ESO, tanking and healing exist so that DD's can enjoy their time and clear content. Totally overlooked and not rewarding roles. That's why I tank less and less in this game, although I started the game as a tank.

What you say about scripts is true. But it's not only the scripts, it's the design of ESO veteran content that favors this specific play style. As far as you stay out of those red boxes or circles on the floor, not even a 500 million health, 1million dps boss can dmg you.

And what makes things worse, is that ZOS doesn't seem to change the direction of their game.

Swordancer

If DPS is such a problem then what about arena with dummy or mobs before you can join queue? You do proper DPS on mobs and single powerfull mob and then you can join queue. You can't change your gear before you finish the dungeon or leave queue and you cant' do something else with your character. It atleast fixes DPS problems. Tanks can be verifed same way. They join arena scaled to the dungeon level, get some hit from mobs or one powerful mob and thats it. Healers heals in arena. You can join queue and if you fit to others you will get the right team. Filters can do the job too, lobby chat with players info who joined too. You can't see people DPS just to avoid rude people but you are atleast sure that the guys have the right build, the rest is mechanics you need to know.

Donny_Vito

Swordancer wrote: »

If DPS is such a problem then what about arena with dummy before you can join queue? You do proper DPS on mobs and single powerfull mob and then you can join queue. You can't change your gear before you finish the dungeon or leaving queue or do something else with your character. It atleast fixes DPS problems. Tanks can be verifed same way. They join arena scaled to the dungeon level, get some hit from mobs or one powerful mob and thats it. Healers heals in arena. You can join queue and if you fit to others you will get the right team. Filters can do the job too, lobby chat with players info who joined too. You can't see people DPS just to avoid rude people but you are atleast sure that the guys have the right build, the rest is mechanics you need to know.

Is the gear/food/skills a person uses then locked for the duration of the Arena? If not, then you'll see these parses with a setup that is not viable in an Arena and would be switched otherwise.

Edit: I saw you say gear, but we all know that skills and food are changed for parses as well. It's such a hard fact to determine at a global level...if someone is "DPS worthy" as ZoS would need a global implementation.

LadyNalcarya

It's mostly a group finder problem. There's just no point in solo queueing when you can just ask in guilds and get decent dds instead of relying on rng.

Swordancer

All actions on your character that changes build shoud be locked during trial on arena or if you want to make change you have to vote for that. Each arena could be updated to one day be perfect verification for the dungeon. Other problem is the we can't see people who are waiting for the dungeon. What if we can join the lobby and play in zones at the same time? If host don't want us there then thats ok, he have to accept us or not to not waste anyone time. We are locked if he kicks for that group and we can search for other one. There is many ways they can fix our problems guys we just need to ask for that a lot xD

BlueRaven

Swordancer wrote: »

If DPS is such a problem then what about arena with dummy or mobs before you can join queue? You do proper DPS on mobs and single powerfull mob and then you can join queue. You can't change your gear before you finish the dungeon or leave queue and you cant' do something else with your character. It atleast fixes DPS problems. Tanks can be verifed same way. They join arena scaled to the dungeon level, get some hit from mobs or one powerful mob and thats it. Healers heals in arena. You can join queue and if you fit to others you will get the right team. Filters can do the job too, lobby chat with players info who joined too. You can't see people DPS just to avoid rude people but you are atleast sure that the guys have the right build, the rest is mechanics you need to know.

Wouldn’t this just promote fake tanks and healers to get around this requirement? What if a dps and a healer queue together?

The core problem is that tanking is an undesirable role to play. And built in bribing for a tank just gets more fake tanks.
Zos has to make the position fun to play. That’s how you get more tanks.

Swordancer

The arena could be for single player, not a group. It is just a quick way to verify any build for dungeons. You get score and if the score is high enough then you can join selected group form list of awaiting or lock it before your guy will join (you can pick who do not need to pass the trial if you want to grind some exp with your friend). In my opinion every single player that is waiting should be visible in some global list. There shouldn't even be global queue at all. You just see the list of people who are waiting, ok this guy passed the arena, he is waiting for vet Bloodroot Forge, I will join him becouse I like this dungeon. You want to join, you need to pass the arena trial. If you pass then you join him, but the guy who started, that is a leader and he want to do some achievement. He sees your score, he thinks ok he passed but his score is to low so Im gonna kick him and that's is. It might be rude for you but it's fair for him and you becouse now you can select other group or create your own. This is how it should look like in my opinion and the score of the dungeon can be easly changed by ZoS in the futere if it isn't right and people have some problems.

Edit: It is a fully scalable solution. Player should be even able to pick team builds he is interested in like 1H/3DDS or 4DDS or classic 1H/1T/ 2DD. It should be host/leader choice.

Ventru7

I feel like

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Yes, few tanks and for good reason.

1. Tank goes down on hard content, team goes down - and you're blamed for it. That's a lot of pressure.
2. On vet DLC a lot of things one shot a tank, one desynch, lag or delay on your block and it's a team wipe.
3. It's much easier to hide your mistakes as DPS, nobody notice if you miss a light attack here or there.
4. You don't do damage and you're completely at the mercy of your DPS players.
5. On vet trial you have no control on what you can wear, what skills and ultimates you can use. Other people tell you how to play your character - unlike DPS where you just need to do light attack weaving with whatever gear you fancy.
6. On easier content DPS behave extremely poorly and will pull mobs and bosses, dragging you along. It's a horrible place to learn how to tank.
7. Tank sets are extremely un-inspirering except for a few pieces here and there.

Yeah sadly this is the experience most people get playing tanks. I feel like they should look at all class tank skills to make them more pleasing to use or even add another identity to tanks. Also tank sets should be more than taunt this enemy and give your group a boring buff..