Are tanks dying spieces in 2020?

Swordancer

Looks like each DLC released it is harder to find tank for dunegon. If you are tank you usually join low level group and waste your time using dunegon finder so we need to just avoid dungeon finder. 2DD/1H/1T it's outdated and vet dungeons doesn't offer alterate path for other team combinations which is another problem. Each DLC released with new dunegons the problem is growing. This game is becoming such a waste of time for waiting. I have a tank but don't want to play as one becouse I know if I'll try to find a team with dungeon finder then I can simply exit the game and play something else. If I'll try on chat I see only popular dungeons and trials becouse ppl are grinding. Dungeons with less popular sets are forgotten.

What the hell is going on? Is there no way to change current state by making some changes? Is this game a complete stagnation?

idk

ESO has plenty of tanks. It is just that most decent tanks avoid the GF due to bad experiences far to often. We choose to run with guild groups and avoid the problems with GF groups.

Join an active guild, one where the leadership actually leads the guild and has people forming raids and more. The quality of groups is much better than the average GF group or zone pug for trials.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

The role trinity is not outdated by any means... All my veteran dlc dungeon achievements, speedruns, hardmodes, and skin runs have been accomplished that way. But because of that view point becoming prevalent, I myself will not tank again, despite it having been my absolute favourite role for years. I do not enjoy 3 dd set ups, nor do I enjoy being a slave to the dps as a tank by wearing things not meant for tanks. That being said, there are still many good tanks out there who will fit the bill for what you want, i.e. vet dungeons, but you won't find many pugging. They do exist in guilds however. My advice to you is to join an active pve community where there's something for everyone.

Fur_like_snow

They should really just rename tank and healer to “support”. Than allow 3 DD 1 support to queue for GF.

Elwendryll

I know plenty of tanks, I'm a tank myself, it's just that if you're a good tank you're often asked to run things so you don't need the group finder in the first place xD

Nairinhe

I have a tank, but I'm scared of doing dungeons with randoms because, let's say, I'm not very experienced in tanking.
BTW, I've looked at some tank and healer builds and got a question: both do buffs and debuffs, but where's the difference in those?

buttaface

Player base skill level has declined so much since around beginning of 2020, likely due to COVID, that pugging any but the easiest normals (and plenty of low normals too) has become annoying IME to the point of not doing it much. Lower/newer/younger whatever players have learned or been taught by BAD higher players to just start pulling mobs. They go every which way then and ALWAYS SLOW THE DUNGEON DOWN.

I had a very nice run of pugging Arx Corinium a couple nights ago for some Medusa stuff with 4 or so very fast runs in a row without pre aggro. That is VERY rare IME since coming back to ESO about a month ago. 70%+ of my pug teams have pre aggro rushing BADS either low or high level. Both types are BAD PLAYERS, no debate, no rationalizations possible. At any level of team play with roles in ANY MMO, NO DPS/HEALER should ever be pulling aggro. This is MMO 101. Maybe school is back in and will lead to better results into the Fall. Fingers crossed.

No idea if my experience has been that of others' as well, but it could possibly partially explain long waits for a tank.

zaria

Elwendryll wrote: »

I know plenty of tanks, I'm a tank myself, it's just that if you're a good tank you're often asked to run things so you don't need the group finder in the first place xD

This, now I had two fun pugs today as I needed skillpoint from BC2 and CoA2 and needed to do them early. and none in guilds at the time. vBC2, came in on last boss as they had fake tank and pretty low dps, did HM and managed i on the first try,
became a bit chaotic at the end because of lots of daedrots as group did not manage extra ones well and because bug I had dual weld skills on back bar so no ranged taunt. I was also bubbled 6 something times.
Would done one more try if that failed, fixed the bar issue and talked some strategy.

Then nCoA2 as did not wanted to pug it in vet and did not want skipping as I was doing quest.
Smooth run.

But rarely pug on tanks except then I need skillpoints and none want to do dlc.

Had another weird one, some wanted to do an tempest island run, needed quest again on this pretty new tank.
Want to make her an PvP primary build with tanking on side so need skill points.
He was soloing it in normal so switched to my overland build and did 25% of the damage
But he invited people so he doubled the chance of drop of a staff he was after and stuff went down 25% faster.
Should have checked if other alts needed the quest
Have plenty of cp 810 bank alts after all.

Jeremy

Swordancer wrote: »

Looks like each DLC released it is harder to find tank for dunegon. If you are tank you usually join low level group and waste your time using dunegon finder so we need to just avoid dungeon finder. 2DD/1H/1T it's outdated and vet dungeons doesn't offer alterate path for other team combinations which is another problem. Each DLC released with new dunegons the problem is growing. This game is becoming such a waste of time for waiting. I have a tank but don't want to play as one becouse I know if I'll try to find a team with dungeon finder then I can simply exit the game and play something else. If I'll try on chat I see only popular dungeons and trials becouse ppl are grinding. Dungeons with less popular sets are forgotten.

What the hell is going on? Is there no way to change current state by making some changes? Is this game a complete stagnation?

Tanks are pretty rare on every MMORPG. Most people like to do MOAR DEEPS! and tanks typically do less damage than other roles. So that right there is the main reason.

But this game does have some significant aggravations where it concerns tanks that probably contribute to making it more of a problem on this game. For example; the lack of a AoE taunt is a turn off for many players (not myself personally, except in rare instances). Then you have the camera issues where you have to worry about over-sized pets and effects blocking your vision and making it impossible for you to see animations or know when to block. This one is a serious problem and can graduate from being an annoyance to getting you and everyone else killed depending on the content.

I think the developers need to take some time and focus specifically on "quality of life" improvements for the role. I think it needs it.

zaria

Jeremy wrote: »

Swordancer wrote: »

Looks like each DLC released it is harder to find tank for dunegon. If you are tank you usually join low level group and waste your time using dunegon finder so we need to just avoid dungeon finder. 2DD/1H/1T it's outdated and vet dungeons doesn't offer alterate path for other team combinations which is another problem. Each DLC released with new dunegons the problem is growing. This game is becoming such a waste of time for waiting. I have a tank but don't want to play as one becouse I know if I'll try to find a team with dungeon finder then I can simply exit the game and play something else. If I'll try on chat I see only popular dungeons and trials becouse ppl are grinding. Dungeons with less popular sets are forgotten.

What the hell is going on? Is there no way to change current state by making some changes? Is this game a complete stagnation?

Tanks are pretty rare on every MMORPG. Most people like to do MOAR DEEPS! and tanks typically do less damage than other roles. So that right there is the main reason.

But this game does have some significant aggravations on tanks that probably contribute to making it more of a problem. For example; the lack of a AoE taunt is a turn off for many players (not myself personally, except in rare instances). Then you have the camera issues where you have to worry about over-sized pets and effects blocking your vision and making it impossible for you to see animations or know when to block. This one is a serious problem and can graduate from being an annoyance to getting you and everyone else killed.

I think the developers need to take some time and focus specifically on "quality of life" improvements for the role. I think it needs it.

All players need to be able to act as DD to do overland content in the first place so DD is the most natural one, healer is the second here as all magic build are an healer with an leveled up resto staff.
Tanks are more specialized as in they can not do other stuff but its no issue making an overland build for an pure tank who works well enough, however as they are in demand so they mostly form groups in guild chat.
And pugging vet dlc is also an very high risk sport.
Only done it once from the start and then I only needed the first two bosses for an achievement but we cleared it.
Has been others but that has been getting into an nice group and did the dlc another dungeon.

Grandchamp1989

Yes, few tanks and for good reason.

1. Tank goes down on hard content, team goes down - and you're blamed for it. That's a lot of pressure.
2. On vet DLC a lot of things one shot a tank, one desynch, lag or delay on your block and it's a team wipe.
3. It's much easier to hide your mistakes as DPS, nobody notice if you miss a light attack here or there.
4. You don't do damage and you're completely at the mercy of your DPS players.
5. On vet trial you have no control on what you can wear, what skills and ultimates you can use. Other people tell you how to play your character - unlike DPS where you just need to do light attack weaving with whatever gear you fancy.
6. On easier content DPS behave extremely poorly and will pull mobs and bosses, dragging you along. It's a horrible place to learn how to tank.
7. Tank sets are extremely un-inspirering except for a few pieces here and there.

Atherakhia

Tanking is just horrifically boring in this game. If it were fun you'd probably see more people queuing and would need to wait 1+ hours in queue. Unfortunately most of the tanks who use the group finder are likely DPS or Healers who got sick of waiting in 1+ hour queues and are now just tanking out of desperation.

idk

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

They should really just rename tank and healer to “support”. Than allow 3 DD 1 support to queue for GF.

@Fur_like_snow you can already have a group like you are wanting. Just form it and queue.

gatekeeper13

Did vBRF HM last week with guildmates as a tank.... It was the first I stepped in that dungeon in vet mode and HM seemed like a joke... I join pugs and vBC2 may look like a nightmare.... So why pug as a tank?

Also, game is suffering from serious balancing issues that no one from ZOS seems to care much about. Did vSCP HM with my magsorc and the 3DD run was easier than the casual 1T 1H 2DD setup. Why is this even possible? The answer is simple. Doing veteran content has nothing to do with avoiding or healing high dmg but being able to roll-dodge and avoid 1-shots. That's it. A birdy DD can easily complete the hardest HM without a healer as far as he can roll dodge and step out of aoe. Does that make sense to you or feels normal? Not for me at least.

It's a game built around satisfying DDs and favoring high DPS. Tanks and healers are considered second category roles...

idk

Atherakhia wrote: »

Tanking is just horrifically boring in this game. If it were fun you'd probably see more people queuing and would need to wait 1+ hours in queue. Unfortunately most of the tanks who use the group finder are likely DPS or Healers who got sick of waiting in 1+ hour queues and are now just tanking out of desperation.

@Atherakhia

Decent tanks avoid the GF due to getting low-quality groups all to often. Heck, I used to queue solo on my tanks just to help out the GF but it was to much of a headache most of the time so like the others I just run with guildmates and friends.

Atherakhia

idk wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

Tanking is just horrifically boring in this game. If it were fun you'd probably see more people queuing and would need to wait 1+ hours in queue. Unfortunately most of the tanks who use the group finder are likely DPS or Healers who got sick of waiting in 1+ hour queues and are now just tanking out of desperation.

@Atherakhia

Decent tanks avoid the GF due to getting low-quality groups all to often. Heck, I used to queue solo on my tanks just to help out the GF but it was to much of a headache most of the time so like the others I just run with guildmates and friends.

2
Decent anyone avoids the GF due to getting low-quality groups all too often. It's not a tank only thing. do you think players capable of doing 80k+ DPS blindfolded enjoy getting in groups with fake tanks, fake healers, or DPS that can't break 20k? This can't be helped.

The larger problem in my opinion is tanking just isn't fun so there are fewer of them. Unlike healing, a tank can't just simply swap some gear do get the job done because they need to invest points in health more times than not. Honestly, if they got rid of attributes you'd probably see more people tank. Considering the overwhelming majority of nontank players max either stam or mag, attributes probably aren't neeeded anywyay.

redgreensunset

Tanks aren't a dying species, we just tend to avoid dungeon finder. For one thing we rarely need it, finding a group without is easy. For another getting told you're not needed in most content leads to "why should I bother, you're all fine without me," mentality in tanks. Finally the chance of getting a fake healer who can't be arsed to even try, but who will blame the tank as the first when the group wipes is also enormously discouraging.

Maybe start appreciating tanks when they're around. Or do what tanks do? Form groups outside of the dungeon finder.

idk

Atherakhia wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

Tanking is just horrifically boring in this game. If it were fun you'd probably see more people queuing and would need to wait 1+ hours in queue. Unfortunately most of the tanks who use the group finder are likely DPS or Healers who got sick of waiting in 1+ hour queues and are now just tanking out of desperation.

@Atherakhia

Decent tanks avoid the GF due to getting low-quality groups all to often. Heck, I used to queue solo on my tanks just to help out the GF but it was to much of a headache most of the time so like the others I just run with guildmates and friends.

2
Decent anyone avoids the GF due to getting low-quality groups all too often. It's not a tank only thing. do you think players capable of doing 80k+ DPS blindfolded enjoy getting in groups with fake tanks, fake healers, or DPS that can't break 20k? This can't be helped.

The larger problem in my opinion is tanking just isn't fun so there are fewer of them. Unlike healing, a tank can't just simply swap some gear do get the job done because they need to invest points in health more times than not. Honestly, if they got rid of attributes you'd probably see more people tank. Considering the overwhelming majority of nontank players max either stam or mag, attributes probably aren't neeeded anywyay.

Ofc decent dps are going to want to avoid the low-quality groups and run with the decent tanks. We are not even talking about 80k dps as much.

I understand you do not like tanking in ESO and probably for the same reasons I am not a fan of healing here. It is more because it is different than what we prefer. A great many of us do like tanking here in ESO and we do not have a shortage, just a shortage willing to forsake running with a decent group and roll the dice on the GF.

gatekeeper13

Atherakhia wrote: »

[do you think players capable of doing 80k+ DPS blindfolded enjoy getting in groups with fake tanks, fake healers, or DPS that can't break 20k? This can't be helped.

It's not a problem for a DPS that does 80k+ dps to carry a <20k DPS. I pug'd vUHG the last time as a DD and actually carried the other guy by doing 70%+ of group dps (my max dps is 65k). It wasnt a problem.

Biggest problem is for tanks when they cant find decent DDs who can at least wait for tank to aggro adds before they rush in aggro-ing everything and making a tank's job real hell. Or DDs that can't clear enemies fast and cause the tank to run out of resources. Try doing as a decent DD with a mediocre DD the Orb boss in vDoM and then try to do it as a tank with low dps DDs. A Nightmare on DoM Street.

Atherakhia

I wasn't trying to say that DPS had it hard. Only that I'm indifferent to the idea that tanks are the only ones avoiding the GF because they're 'too good'. Every group that has a bad tank, a bad healer, or a bad DPS is not going to be a fun ride for the 3 other people in the group. The problem in this thread is that tanks aren't queing for GF in general. Not even the bad ones. They aren't queuing because they don't exist. Why don't they exist? In my opinion, it's because it's not fun. I base that opinion simply on the fact that I don't find tanking fun. I'm not trying to say it's a lesser mechanic in this game or it doesn't take effort or skill. I just don't find it fun and everyone I talk to who complains about DPS queues all tell me the same thing: they'd rather sit in queue for 1+ hours than tank because they don't enjoy it.

I think a lot of people who are using GF to find groups would be absolutely fine with bad tanks if it didn't mean 1+ hour queues. Bad tanks just don't exist.

buttaface

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Doing veteran content has nothing to do with avoiding or healing high dmg but being able to roll-dodge and avoid 1-shots. That's it. A birdy DD can easily complete the hardest HM without a healer as far as he can roll dodge and step out of aoe. Does that make sense to you or feels normal? Not for me at least.

This is one of the big "known but not really discussed secrets" of ESO and other ESO-WOW gear treadmill type games, and plays into the topic also. it's almost all what we used to call "scripts" in the olden days, or memorizing levels as in a console game, rote learning, not anything like team tactical play. Once one learns the script and "puts it on farm mode" the challenge and fun is very limited. I think such games jumped the shark about 10 years ago, and have been on decline since, replaced by team tactical games with parkour, true aim.

Strider__Roshin

Tanks aren't needed in most content, and the content that does need tanks; tanks aren't going to use group finder because most people can't DPS.

ShawnLaRock

I just won Greymoor a couple of weeks ago - but I waited to use my 18th character slot to make my first properly-focused Tank build. I am only level 38, ATM - but I KNOW there will be work in a couple of days when I hit CP, for sure! Kiiiiiind of excited.

S.

electriczzz

I'm a main tank since 2015 with many many boring breaks. Mainly did and doing vet dlc dungeons simply for the fun of it, got my gf(not group finder this time I mean my girlfriend) as a pocket healer with me and we're queing almost daily with the good old PUGs and going through horrible pains almost 4/5 times with the 2 random DDs thrown at us. It's also not nice tanking with all the visual effects (including 2 random deadroths in the middle of my screen) and constant low dps. It's really not fun having to worry to queue for some specifc dungeons simply because of the people you might(probably) end up with.I feel like the skill gap from 20k dps and below up to 70k+ is insane and needs to be adressed somehow. Also getting told what to use and what to wear is not fun either, DDs get way too much freedom in my opinion compared to tanks and oh how often have I taken the blame for some bloody desync or simple lag causing a wipe. I guess 3 DDs 1 T is the new meta and healers will be the ones going extinct simply because the dps on elite and skilled players is too high and can skip too many mechanics in endgame content. To answer the question there are still some decent tanks out there trying to make pugs more pleasant please don't give them a hard time otherwise they'll switch to DDs as well because that seems to be the way to go anyways.

Jeremy

zaria wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Swordancer wrote: »

Looks like each DLC released it is harder to find tank for dunegon. If you are tank you usually join low level group and waste your time using dunegon finder so we need to just avoid dungeon finder. 2DD/1H/1T it's outdated and vet dungeons doesn't offer alterate path for other team combinations which is another problem. Each DLC released with new dunegons the problem is growing. This game is becoming such a waste of time for waiting. I have a tank but don't want to play as one becouse I know if I'll try to find a team with dungeon finder then I can simply exit the game and play something else. If I'll try on chat I see only popular dungeons and trials becouse ppl are grinding. Dungeons with less popular sets are forgotten.

What the hell is going on? Is there no way to change current state by making some changes? Is this game a complete stagnation?

Tanks are pretty rare on every MMORPG. Most people like to do MOAR DEEPS! and tanks typically do less damage than other roles. So that right there is the main reason.

But this game does have some significant aggravations on tanks that probably contribute to making it more of a problem. For example; the lack of a AoE taunt is a turn off for many players (not myself personally, except in rare instances). Then you have the camera issues where you have to worry about over-sized pets and effects blocking your vision and making it impossible for you to see animations or know when to block. This one is a serious problem and can graduate from being an annoyance to getting you and everyone else killed.

I think the developers need to take some time and focus specifically on "quality of life" improvements for the role. I think it needs it.

All players need to be able to act as DD to do overland content in the first place so DD is the most natural one, healer is the second here as all magic build are an healer with an leveled up resto staff.
Tanks are more specialized as in they can not do other stuff but its no issue making an overland build for an pure tank who works well enough, however as they are in demand so they mostly form groups in guild chat.
And pugging vet dlc is also an very high risk sport.
Only done it once from the start and then I only needed the first two bosses for an achievement but we cleared it.
Has been others but that has been getting into an nice group and did the dlc another dungeon.

I've never found my tank to have any issues dealing enough damage on the overland. It's a common complaint I read a lot on here though - so it's obviously a valid concern. But it's just not one I can relate to.

In my experience even 6~7k DPS is more than enough damage to easily slaughter everything but World Bosses on the overland. And that's easy enough for me to get up to, even in full tank gear.

As far as pugging Vet DLC - I think that's high risk no matter what role you are. haha But I take your point. Though honestly I have better luck completing VET DLC's pugging on my tank than anything else. That's one of the reasons I started playing tank to be honest with you... so I didn't have to look for one when I wanted to do DLC content. Real or competent tanks are like sacred unicorns when it comes to doing those, which I guess ties neatly into the OP's point.

JanTanhide

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

The role trinity is not outdated by any means... All my veteran dlc dungeon achievements, speedruns, hardmodes, and skin runs have been accomplished that way. But because of that view point becoming prevalent, I myself will not tank again, despite it having been my absolute favourite role for years. I do not enjoy 3 dd set ups, nor do I enjoy being a slave to the dps as a tank by wearing things not meant for tanks. That being said, there are still many good tanks out there who will fit the bill for what you want, i.e. vet dungeons, but you won't find many pugging. They do exist in guilds however. My advice to you is to join an active pve community where there's something for everyone.

Couldn't agree more. I am not going to wear what a group wants me to wear so they are buffed in some way or another. I play how I want to play on my Tanks and actually "Tank" instead of being a "buff bot". Now I don't mind some of the sets that buff the group that also help the Tank but I'm not wearing Alkosh on my Tank nor am I wearing Ebon to give a K of Health to someone's build. Seriously, if you need a K of health to get through a dungeon you have some serious issues.

I use to PUG Vet dungeons, DLC included quite a bit on my Tanks but haven't done so in four or five months. I got tired of people squaking about me wearing Ebon and Earthgore and whatever else they demand a Tank wear.

So mostly I run with friends and guildies now.

ccfeeling

New dlc require good teamwork and higher dps, pug is nightmare.

Moongrave, LOM are pug Killer, we know, Zos knows.

Wyrd88

JanTanhide wrote: »

"Tank" instead of being a "buff bot". Now I don't mind some of the sets that buff the group that also help the Tank but I'm not wearing Alkosh on my Tank nor am I wearing Ebon to give a K of Health to someone's build.

Jfyi, some 60-70k HP abomination with zero support not a "Tank" either. It's just 60-70k HP abomination with zero support.


As for the topic, no, tanks are not dying spieces. They just don't do PUGs, especially good ones, because it's just a miserable expirience. Personally, I don't do PUGs on my tank because most dds are just bad. Simple as that. I don't want to stand there 10+ minutes and watch at that mighty 20k group dps.
I use Group Finder as a tank only if I have some DPS slave with me, but it's not true PUG, so doesn't count.

Reverb

I rarely tanked pugs anyway, because it’s so much easier to get groups from guilds and friends. Recently I stopped pugging altogether on my tank because everyone is running either maw or Selene, and both have collision and block LoS. It’s annoying as hell.

BattleAxe

I am a tank who actually pugs quite a bit mainly because I don’t mind helping people I see low dps quite often and actually advise them in ways to raise their dps. However if I get groups where the dps don’t want to take constructive criticism then I peace out quicker than you can hit leave group. I actually find the randomness makes tanking more fun because it trains a tank to become very self sufficient ala resource management self healing and so on. My problem with forming a group in guilds is there are always cliches in guilds and if your not in you don’t get help and the players who do help often are the same kind of players you run into in a pug.

Challenge for all fellow players who main as a tank pug dungeons more often and see how much better at the role you become.

BlueRaven

I love tanking but I also love getting stuff done like dailies and such. Slowly I am turning my tanks into dps’s so I can actually do things overland. I will probably keep one though, and just pull him out upon request.

Nerfs to tank QOL have consequences. The most obvious being less tanks.