Updates to Guild Trader Swap Times

Dont_do_drugs

WolfStar07 wrote: »

karliahquinn wrote: »

People work at all times, shift workers, casual workers, weekend workers. Not to mention the different time zones.

I don't understand what requires someone to be in game at changeover time? I live in New Zealand, current changeover happens for me in the middle of the night. I find out the next day where our trader is, and I don't know how it would change anything to be up at 3am?

Well, were it not for the delay, you'd have 5 minutes when (in the event you lost) you could try to find an open trader and hire it for a mere 10k. Which is why many trade guilds (or any guild with a regular trader) normally have leadership available in game at that time.

even with the delay friends of me managed to find and hire open traders with the help of officers. the delay is quite predictable and it doesnt change anything to that aspect of the game. as soon as trader flipped tabard or flipped the info on the main guild site u just run. and since u recognized before already, that u lost bcs all ur 10 bids came back u can even position urself to those hubs which have a chance of an empty trader. after all beeing able to bid 10 doesnt mean, that there are more guilds out there bidding all spots. just bcs a spot beeing in a backup chain doesnt mean it gets bid, as there are higher bids above. a lot of spots are less contested as people might think.

so it may be, that there are less empty traders, but there definitely are some, all u need for it is beeing online that time, having helping hands like officers and friends and even better - voice commnuication who goes where.

AdamBourke

Maybe you could just replace guild traders with a better system instead?

(Console player without access to add-ons, here...)

SirAxen

AdamBourke wrote: »

Maybe you could just replace guild traders with a better system instead?

(Console player without access to add-ons, here...)

Speaking for myself, I don't have any issues on console when I play there.

Edenprime

I'm from PC EU and can help test on PTS. I'm able to bid for 6 guilds.

code65536

WolfStar07 wrote: »

karliahquinn wrote: »

People work at all times, shift workers, casual workers, weekend workers. Not to mention the different time zones.

I don't understand what requires someone to be in game at changeover time? I live in New Zealand, current changeover happens for me in the middle of the night. I find out the next day where our trader is, and I don't know how it would change anything to be up at 3am?

Well, were it not for the delay, you'd have 5 minutes when (in the event you lost) you could try to find an open trader and hire it for a mere 10k. Which is why many trade guilds (or any guild with a regular trader) normally have leadership available in game at that time.

That used to be reason, but with multi-bidding, I don't think that free spots exist anymore.

mav1234

Please reconsider the times chosen- I realize work schedules are highly variable but surely this is in the middle of more players work day than the previous time.

virtus753

mav1234 wrote: »

Please reconsider the times chosen- I realize work schedules are highly variable but surely this is in the middle of more players work day than the previous time.

Unfortunately that seems to be the point. With the fragility of the servers, especially EU, it’s now more important that flip happen when ZOS employees or contractors are at work than when we aren’t. If individual guild bid situations go south, at least the whole of the bid process can be monitored and kept as stable as possible.

The better solution would be to improve the game’s ability to handle higher concurrency so traders can flip smoothly (or at least reliably) outside of business hours, when more people (including guild bidders) are able to be online, but that doesn’t seem to be in the cards.

Dont_do_drugs

virtus753 wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

Please reconsider the times chosen- I realize work schedules are highly variable but surely this is in the middle of more players work day than the previous time.

Unfortunately that seems to be the point. With the fragility of the servers, especially EU, it’s now more important that flip happen when ZOS employees or contractors are at work than when we aren’t. If individual guild bid situations go south, at least the whole of the bid process can be monitored and kept as stable as possible.

The better solution would be to improve the game’s ability to handle higher concurrency so traders can flip smoothly (or at least reliably) outside of business hours, when more people (including guild bidders) are able to be online, but that doesn’t seem to be in the cards.

See, when i had been working in a marketing company with focus on the online segment, it had been the most normal in the world, to sometimes, if a relaunch or update happened, we were there at night. i am pretty sure, everyone, who starts working in the it business, especially in such projects, which are online 24/7, are aware that working times arent as fixed, as a lot of other jobs. but same time such jobs usually arent paid worst. usually. so actually the truth is, i am pretty sure, there is a technical ability to also monitor on a sunday, but as the server problems and the dlc/crown store scedule suggest, its not about beeing able or not able, but about what zos is willing to invest. so it means "eat it and whatever..."

best part of this thread is that it didnt get translated to the other forums. i am aware, you cant translate it to every language, but if theres a forum in each language, such information should be posted there. especially for the german and russian communities, since i know some gm in the trade sector lack english skills a lot.after all worse enough zos informs like 3 days before, as if zos would gibe 2 extra days to next trading week. no: bids will rise considering this. and some guilds may need to prepare some extra bucks for the bids.

Elsonso

code65536 wrote: »

WolfStar07 wrote: »

karliahquinn wrote: »

People work at all times, shift workers, casual workers, weekend workers. Not to mention the different time zones.

I don't understand what requires someone to be in game at changeover time? I live in New Zealand, current changeover happens for me in the middle of the night. I find out the next day where our trader is, and I don't know how it would change anything to be up at 3am?

Well, were it not for the delay, you'd have 5 minutes when (in the event you lost) you could try to find an open trader and hire it for a mere 10k. Which is why many trade guilds (or any guild with a regular trader) normally have leadership available in game at that time.

That used to be reason, but with multi-bidding, I don't think that free spots exist anymore.

Ultimately, that is what I understand to be an intended side effect of multibidding. It reduces the need to run around frantically looking for any port in a storm because your bid failed.

Dont_do_drugs

Elsonso wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

WolfStar07 wrote: »

karliahquinn wrote: »

People work at all times, shift workers, casual workers, weekend workers. Not to mention the different time zones.

I don't understand what requires someone to be in game at changeover time? I live in New Zealand, current changeover happens for me in the middle of the night. I find out the next day where our trader is, and I don't know how it would change anything to be up at 3am?

Well, were it not for the delay, you'd have 5 minutes when (in the event you lost) you could try to find an open trader and hire it for a mere 10k. Which is why many trade guilds (or any guild with a regular trader) normally have leadership available in game at that time.

That used to be reason, but with multi-bidding, I don't think that free spots exist anymore.

Ultimately, that is what I understand to be an intended side effect of multibidding. It reduces the need to run around frantically looking for any port in a storm because your bid failed.

how would it reduce the need to run around. there are still approx same amount of guilds bidding and and same amount of traders. there are still guilds losing all 10 bids and still traders beeing free. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

redgreensunset

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its probably better than having to repeatedly explain "Guys, it's Sunday night in the US of A, the people in charge of fixing this probably aren't going to get called in to fix it til the morning..."

Though it might be even better to address why this keeps happening and fix the root of the problem. But what do I know?

I'm going to go out on something of a limb, though it's based on observation. Every time the server swap failed on PC/EU there was a high sever load (usually a combination of Sunday evening rush, event on and often the last Sunday in the event so lots and lots of people grinding). So it seems that something about server stress causes things to get wonky.

Which may also serve to explain why it isn't put later in the day, because they're trying to avoid EU prime time which we all know how hectic and stressful can be (for the server and sometimes for the players too XD). I find it quite plausible that the very reason they're not waiting for people to "get off work" is because that would mean prime time had hit and the server stress they're trying to avoid would be there regardless and then they might as well keep it Sunday with all the possibilities of fubars that would entail.

Elsonso

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

WolfStar07 wrote: »

karliahquinn wrote: »

People work at all times, shift workers, casual workers, weekend workers. Not to mention the different time zones.

I don't understand what requires someone to be in game at changeover time? I live in New Zealand, current changeover happens for me in the middle of the night. I find out the next day where our trader is, and I don't know how it would change anything to be up at 3am?

Well, were it not for the delay, you'd have 5 minutes when (in the event you lost) you could try to find an open trader and hire it for a mere 10k. Which is why many trade guilds (or any guild with a regular trader) normally have leadership available in game at that time.

That used to be reason, but with multi-bidding, I don't think that free spots exist anymore.

Ultimately, that is what I understand to be an intended side effect of multibidding. It reduces the need to run around frantically looking for any port in a storm because your bid failed.

how would it reduce the need to run around. there are still approx same amount of guilds bidding and and same amount of traders. there are still guilds losing all 10 bids and still traders beeing free. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just throwing out numbers, here.

If you have 100 guild traders and 150 guilds, it is true that, each week 50 guilds will not get a trader.

In the old bidding system, you might not get bids on every trader. With only one bid, you bid on the one you want to get, and if you lose that bid, you run around trying to find one of the ones that no one bid on. At the end of the day, 50 guilds do get a trader.

The new bidding system does not guarantee that 100 guilds will post 1000 bids, but they can bid on secondary locations, and win one of those. Those guilds will not be running around looking for a home after losing their primary bid. There will still be 50 guilds that do not get a trader, and there may still be traders that no one bids on, so some people will run around and look for a trader, but probably fewer than in the old system.

Dont_do_drugs

Elsonso wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

WolfStar07 wrote: »

karliahquinn wrote: »

People work at all times, shift workers, casual workers, weekend workers. Not to mention the different time zones.

I don't understand what requires someone to be in game at changeover time? I live in New Zealand, current changeover happens for me in the middle of the night. I find out the next day where our trader is, and I don't know how it would change anything to be up at 3am?

Well, were it not for the delay, you'd have 5 minutes when (in the event you lost) you could try to find an open trader and hire it for a mere 10k. Which is why many trade guilds (or any guild with a regular trader) normally have leadership available in game at that time.

That used to be reason, but with multi-bidding, I don't think that free spots exist anymore.

Ultimately, that is what I understand to be an intended side effect of multibidding. It reduces the need to run around frantically looking for any port in a storm because your bid failed.

how would it reduce the need to run around. there are still approx same amount of guilds bidding and and same amount of traders. there are still guilds losing all 10 bids and still traders beeing free. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just throwing out numbers, here.

If you have 100 guild traders and 150 guilds, it is true that, each week 50 guilds will not get a trader.

In the old bidding system, you might not get bids on every trader. With only one bid, you bid on the one you want to get, and if you lose that bid, you run around trying to find one of the ones that no one bid on. At the end of the day, 50 guilds do get a trader.

The new bidding system does not guarantee that 100 guilds will post 1000 bids, but they can bid on secondary locations, and win one of those. Those guilds will not be running around looking for a home after losing their primary bid. There will still be 50 guilds that do not get a trader, and there may still be traders that no one bids on, so some people will run around and look for a trader, but probably fewer than in the old system.

thats the ideal situation in ur calculation. because you think, people will make 10 bids properly in different hubs and attractivity wise lower with every bid. but things dont work like that. people try to have their backup bids on selling wise acceptable spots/hubs, and maybe one "omfg-bid" on a very bad trader. thats why i said: a lot more traders than assumed are less contested as u might think. i even recognized guilds jumping away from their spot to get to a better one and their trader staying free.

Elsonso

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

WolfStar07 wrote: »

karliahquinn wrote: »

People work at all times, shift workers, casual workers, weekend workers. Not to mention the different time zones.

I don't understand what requires someone to be in game at changeover time? I live in New Zealand, current changeover happens for me in the middle of the night. I find out the next day where our trader is, and I don't know how it would change anything to be up at 3am?

Well, were it not for the delay, you'd have 5 minutes when (in the event you lost) you could try to find an open trader and hire it for a mere 10k. Which is why many trade guilds (or any guild with a regular trader) normally have leadership available in game at that time.

That used to be reason, but with multi-bidding, I don't think that free spots exist anymore.

Ultimately, that is what I understand to be an intended side effect of multibidding. It reduces the need to run around frantically looking for any port in a storm because your bid failed.

how would it reduce the need to run around. there are still approx same amount of guilds bidding and and same amount of traders. there are still guilds losing all 10 bids and still traders beeing free. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just throwing out numbers, here.

If you have 100 guild traders and 150 guilds, it is true that, each week 50 guilds will not get a trader.

In the old bidding system, you might not get bids on every trader. With only one bid, you bid on the one you want to get, and if you lose that bid, you run around trying to find one of the ones that no one bid on. At the end of the day, 50 guilds do get a trader.

The new bidding system does not guarantee that 100 guilds will post 1000 bids, but they can bid on secondary locations, and win one of those. Those guilds will not be running around looking for a home after losing their primary bid. There will still be 50 guilds that do not get a trader, and there may still be traders that no one bids on, so some people will run around and look for a trader, but probably fewer than in the old system.

thats the ideal situation in ur calculation. because you think, people will make 10 bids properly in different hubs and attractivity wise lower with every bid. but things dont work like that. people try to have their backup bids on selling wise acceptable spots/hubs, and maybe one "omfg-bid" on a very bad trader. thats why i said: a lot more traders than assumed are less contested as u might think. i even recognized guilds jumping away from their spot to get to a better one and their trader staying free.

Anyway, the point was that it was reduced, not eliminated, and I do think that is probably the case, globally.

CynderzLite

@ZOS_GinaBruno Has anyone brought up the fact that chapters and dlcs usually drop on Tuesdays
Not everyone has fast internet and the download can take till past 3:00pm edt/est
I realize that the solution would be “Well just bid ahead of time” but for some guilds those hours can make a huge difference as far as deposits and gold available for bidding! So why Tuesday’s?

Elsonso

AdamBourke wrote: »

Maybe you could just replace guild traders with a better system instead?

(Console player without access to add-ons, here...)

This is a big reason why I have a hard time playing on consoles. PS4 always seems like a primitive campsite, while PC is like a 4 star hotel. I always found it appalling how ZOS basically left the console out to dry, not even providing the basics, like water and sanitation.

CynderzLite

@Elsonso yes we have learned how to build lots of trenches with what they have given us to work with

WolfStar07

code65536 wrote: »

That used to be reason, but with multi-bidding, I don't think that free spots exist anymore.

As have been mentioned by more than just me, empty spots do exist, and I've picked one up a number of times since multi-bidding. It's just been harder now to see what's open when the flips are delayed.

wolfie1.0.

Spage wrote: »

I don't suppose there's any chance of not making this smack in the middle of the majority's work day?

Dear gods, just realised I have to consider moving raffles and auctions around, editing addons to reflect that too. GOOD GOD ZOS. Week-end data pulls and everything are going to be completely borked.

Can this not be fixed without creating carnage for us down here on the ground?

The weekend data pulls are probably another reason they are moving it. Weekends are prime play time for everyone. Guilds and guild functions and activities are at peak.

I have played pretty much on every day and Tuesdays are usually not as laggy as the others. Often the only thing that happens on Tuesdays is that events end. And in rare instances maintenance will occur.

Spreading out higher server traffic activities across more days will hopefully improve the load.

sirinsidiator

@ZOS_GinaBruno Looking at the bidding interface it still says 7 days until bidding closes. Does this mean for the switch on the 11th we still have to do our bids until Sunday evening, or will that time be extended until Tuesday?

Airynymph

Hi @ZOS_GinaBruno I can help with testing if that's needed.

volkeswagon

This is a bad time. It splits up the week on console. Monday would make more sense. Even then if their was an issue people wouldn't know until they get home from work. Makes more sense to keep in Sunday night then people can check if there are issues then fix them Monday Morning

Navarril

ZOS.. anything you can do to disrupt the trading cartels is fine with me. PLEASE... more of it!!!

virtus753

volkeswagon wrote: »

This is a bad time. It splits up the week on console. Monday would make more sense. Even then if their was an issue people wouldn't know until they get home from work. Makes more sense to keep in Sunday night then people can check if there are issues then fix them Monday Morning

The game can’t handle the concurrency on Sundays without fixes that aren’t forthcoming for one reason or another. We’ve seen at least four times now how massively disruptive a failed trader flip is. Keeping it on Sundays without improving the ability of the game to handle it would be asking for the same trouble with no ability to address it in an acceptable manner. The cleanup takes all week, costing ZOS significant resources and consumer good will. It can’t just be done on Monday morning, since staff have to go through the logs and figure out what went wrong, who was supposed to have which trader, who got refunds they weren’t supposed to, who didn’t get refunds but should have, whose money got taken even when they didn’t get the right trader (or any at all), etc. Then there’s the question of who spent money they didn’t earn and what sort of action to take on that front — by now GMs should know there is effectively a freeze on guild bank accounts when this happens so ZOS can sort things, which is hardly fair to players just trying to run their guilds as normal. And ZOS has rarely (if ever) made sure the guilds who won certain traders got the traders they should have, since it’s so far into the week by the time they’re through that there’s little point before the next flip happens. In some of the later incidents they did refund guilds who didn’t take advantage of the situation, at least, but it’s still very, very messy and has always taken the rest of the week (if not longer) to sort out.

There’s little sense in keeping the status quo when their attempts at safeguards have repeatedly failed to stabilize the process and when paying staff to be available outside of business hours would be both costly and largely reactive rather than preventative. Absent successful safeguards, Sundays are clearly no longer a feasible option for the health of one of the most widespread aspects of the game.

As for Mondays, the issue I’d foresee is maintenance. Recently maintenance has had to be extended a very long time, lasting well into the afternoon in some areas. It could well interfere with a Monday flip at the rate it’s going, unless they did it Monday evening (where again they’d run into the concurrency problem).

AzraelKrieg

Navarril wrote: »

ZOS.. anything you can do to disrupt the trading cartels is fine with me. PLEASE... more of it!!!

This won't disrupt them at all because they'll finalise their bid in advance. If anything this screws over more guilds, particularly those on NA that are run by people not in North America. A 3pm EDT change over is 5am AEST, and there is no way in hell that I'm getting up that early just to make sure the bid updated before the 5 minute cutoff.

SamboJ

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone!

Beginning on August 11th, we’ll be adjusting the date and time that Guild Traders make their weekly swap to coincide with some backend work going into Update 27. These new times will ensure we can fully monitor and react to any issues that may arise when the swap takes place. Below, you’ll find the new day and time when Guild Traders will switch over:

European (EU) megaserver: Tuesdays - 13:00 UTC, 10am EDT / 9am EST

• 13:55 Tuesday UTC: All bidding and renting from the previous week will stop
• 14:00 Tuesday UTC : Tabard of the selected vendor flips to new owners
• 14:05 Tuesday UTC : All bidding and renting is opened up again for the following week

North American (NA) megaserver: Tuesdays - 19:00 UTC, 3pm EDT / 2pm EST

• 2:55 Tuesday EDT: All bidding and renting from the previous week will stop
• 3:00 Tuesday EDT: Tabard of the selected vendor flips to new owners
• 3:05 Tuesday EDT: All bidding and renting is opened up again for the following week

Please note that during high usage, the process times listed may take a few extra minutes to complete.

What this means for the previous week: Traders will switch over normally on Sunday, August 3rd. Bids that take place after that will go towards a trader that will be awarded on the August 11th swap. That means Guilds will have traders for about 2 extra days following the August 3rd switchover. Once the August 11th switch over takes place, the traders will be back to the new Tuesday weekly cadence.

Note we will also be testing this time shift on the PTS, with August 4th being the first time it changes on that realm. If you are a GM of a guild on PC EU and would like to help us test, please post here and let us know.

Thanks!

Just thought I'd mention that the current time remaining before close of bids (on PC NA) doesn't reflect the new changeover times shown. Unsure if bidding will be available for the 2 days prior to the changeover.

We love you, @ZOS_GinaBruno !

Kind regards,

@SamboJ

JN_Slevin

@ZOS_GinaBruno About the bid test, do you guys want us to do some special things? Like bid all on one kiosk? Lots of gold?

There are lots of people who already said they are ready to test, if you want some heavy tests on one kiosk or anything, now is the chance!

sirinsidiator

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

European (EU) megaserver: Tuesdays - 13:00 UTC, 10am EDT / 9am EST

• 13:55 Tuesday UTC: All bidding and renting from the previous week will stop
• 14:00 Tuesday UTC : Tabard of the selected vendor flips to new owners
• 14:05 Tuesday UTC : All bidding and renting is opened up again for the following week

Just noticed you actually posted two times for the EU change. Which one is correct? 13:00 UTC or 14:00 UTC? 10am EDT would indicate 14:00 UTC is what you meant to write.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Cani wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno About the bid test, do you guys want us to do some special things? Like bid all on one kiosk? Lots of gold?

There are lots of people who already said they are ready to test, if you want some heavy tests on one kiosk or anything, now is the chance!

Yes! If you could bid on a trader on PTS then just let me know (here or via PM) which one you bid on, that would help a ton. Doesn't matter how much you bid. Thanks!

sirinsidiator wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

European (EU) megaserver: Tuesdays - 13:00 UTC, 10am EDT / 9am EST

• 13:55 Tuesday UTC: All bidding and renting from the previous week will stop
• 14:00 Tuesday UTC : Tabard of the selected vendor flips to new owners
• 14:05 Tuesday UTC : All bidding and renting is opened up again for the following week

Just noticed you actually posted two times for the EU change. Which one is correct? 13:00 UTC or 14:00 UTC? 10am EDT would indicate 14:00 UTC is what you meant to write.

Sorry about that. The correct time should be 14:00 UTC. Will edit the original post to correct that.

JN_Slevin

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno About the bid test, do you guys want us to do some special things? Like bid all on one kiosk? Lots of gold?

There are lots of people who already said they are ready to test, if you want some heavy tests on one kiosk or anything, now is the chance!

Yes! If you could bid on a trader on PTS then just let me know (here or via PM) which one you bid on, that would help a ton. Doesn't matter how much you bid. Thanks!

sirinsidiator wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

European (EU) megaserver: Tuesdays - 13:00 UTC, 10am EDT / 9am EST

• 13:55 Tuesday UTC: All bidding and renting from the previous week will stop
• 14:00 Tuesday UTC : Tabard of the selected vendor flips to new owners
• 14:05 Tuesday UTC : All bidding and renting is opened up again for the following week

Just noticed you actually posted two times for the EU change. Which one is correct? 13:00 UTC or 14:00 UTC? 10am EDT would indicate 14:00 UTC is what you meant to write.

Sorry about that. The correct time should be 14:00 UTC. Will edit the original post to correct that.

I am able to bid with 5 Guilds! I could place 5 bids on 10 traders or 50 on random ones. Some sort of guideline or special scenario if needed would be amazing!
I really want to help out in testing.

If it doesn't matter i will probably place 5 bids on 10 traders. Gonna bid on every trader in Rawl'kha and every trader in Vivec beside "Jena Calvus" (the one with the tend who is farthest away from the Wayshrine)!