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Leads in IC; if you wanted us to hate PvP even more... this was it
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technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For those wishing you could get leads from several different things to fit your playstyle; for one thing, I think ZOS intends it to get people to see all their content. It's why they have something in every zone.
For another reason; consider being careful what you wish for as leads in every type of content leads to overlap and probably an added RNG to which lead you get to go on top of if you get one at all.0 -
SolidusPrime✭✭✭✭Its crazy to think you are owed access to every single item in the game on your terms. It is perfectly okay if you decide the items from activity X are not good enough to warrant you doing activity X.
Ya the OCD "need" to have every single item that exists in the game is on the players, not ZOS.
They are including PVPers in the new antiquities system. We can't really complain about that, can we?7 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
So two rings and a furniture item:- Malacath’s Brutal Rune Core (Mythic piece); Upper District Bosses, Can also drop from Safebox in Bal Foyen. (Dig Site in Bal Foyen)
- Jeweled Skull of Ayleid Kings (Gold; Furniture); Lead drops in Cyrodiil Treasure Chests or Heavy Sacks, Imperial City upper District Bosses (Only dig site is in Glenumbra)
- Hecatomb Tassets (Mythic piece); Lead drops in IMPERIAL CITY from General Kryozote & Krosogar, Imperial City Sewers (Only dig site is in Khenarthi’s Roost)
Malacath's Band of Brutality
Set bonus: (1 item) Increases your damage done by 25%. You cannot deal critical damage.
* 1 piece in Imperial City
Bloodlord's Embrace
Set bonus: (1 item) Dealing damage with a Bash attack places a persistent, un-cleansable Blood Curse on an enemy. You can only have one Blood Cursed enemy at a time and dealing additional Bash damage moves the Blood Curse. Blocking an attack from a Blood Cursed enemy restores 1535 Magicka to you. This effect can occur every 1 second.
* 1 piece in Imperial City Sewers
Jeweled Skull of Ayleid Kings
Traditional Furnishings, Undercroft
* 1 piece drops from Cyrodiil Chest in Newt Cave or Imperial City upper District Bosses
I don't want to take part in the argument but I just wanted to point out that at least Jeweled Skull of Ayleid King's can be found in Cyrodiil treasure map chests. I think (I cannot guarantee that) that should mean it also has a chance to drop off all normal (non-treasure map) Cyrodiil chests too, at least that seems to be the case for most chest-y furnishings. To list that as an IC exclusive is far-fetched at best.1 -
ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭newtinmpls wrote: »Normally I hate IC and avoid it. Don't care to do it, not fun getting ganked.
But now there are leads in IC.
So now I get to wade through more of the [snip]
Way to increase resentment and misery
My problem is that they put them near the EP and AD camps.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 9, 2020 1:21PM0 -
Thannazzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭People are complaining about not getting leads immediately because they want all the items this week
The Antiquities system is something that was added which contributes to the long term of the game.
Which is why there are leads everywhere.
You may not like PvP having leads but I’m sure there are various PvP players who appreciate it.
Of course people are hating the grind if all they’re doing is farming leads. It’s supposed to be something you do as you play - like crafting.
I don’t think it’s a bad idea that there are leads for pvp play, I think having them be exclusive is the issue.
Wholehartedly Agree, the same leads should be available in both pve and pvp sources,3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Well here's my complaint.
I PvP. Or I did before ZOS's "improvements" made doing so an exercise in futility. But let's assume this AAA game would have reasonable performance 6 years after release like most AAA games out there.
There are very clearly PvP oriented antiquities out there such as the Snow Treader shoes, which will never go anywhere near one of Alcast's recommended PvE builds. To say nothing of the siege weapon.
Why must I PvE for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours on end to get them? Running through dungeons, farming nodes, going up and down beaches murdering mudcrabs, scouring for treasure maps, digging holes in the dirt, porting from zone to zone, etc., all of this stuff is 1000% focused and exclusive to PvE just to get a pair of shoes so when Xv1ers spam bombard, encase, etc., I can still actually move. This apparently is OK, but when a few of the hundreds and hundreds of antiquities happen to be in a zone where PvP is POSSIBLE - but not required - it's worthy of complaining.
It's almost like the ZoS developers failed to personally consult me and cater the game totally to my preferences and instead decided that the antiquity system should touch and be a part of every existing system so everyone at certain points would be in their comfort area.Edited by Joy_Division on June 8, 2020 2:48PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.9 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
Well here's my complaint.
I PvP. Or I did before ZOS's "improvements" made doing so an exercise in futility. But let's assume this AAA game would have reasonable performance 6 years after release like most AAA games out there.
There are very clearly PvP oriented antiquities out there such as the Snow Treader shoes, which will never go anywhere near one of Alcast's recommended PvE builds. To say nothing of the siege weapon.
Why must I PvE for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours on end to get them? Running through dungeons, farming nodes, going up and down beaches murdering mudcrabs, scouring for treasure maps, digging holes in the dirt, porting from zone to zone, etc., all of this stuff is 1000% focused and exclusive to PvE just to get a pair of shoes so when Xv1ers spam bombard, encase, etc., I can still actually move. This apparently is OK, but when a few of the hundreds and hundreds of antiquities happen to be in a zone where PvP is POSSIBLE - but not required - it's worthy of complaining.
It's almost like the ZoS developers failed to personally consult me and cater the game totally to my preferences and instead decided that the antiquity system should touch and be a part of every existing system so everyone at certain points would be in their comfort area.
It's also almost like the majority of PvEers treat PvPers like second class gamers so much that in PvE it takes two days to fix performance, but Cyrodiil is still reeling from the effects of Harrowstorm. But Eight forbid ZoS throw PvPers a bone with lead activity and giving them literally eight leads that are exclusive to that mode of gameplay. We're getting mythics like those shoes not because of the spam, but because sometimes we literally can't even cast Purge.2 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
Well here's my complaint.
I PvP. Or I did before ZOS's "improvements" made doing so an exercise in futility. But let's assume this AAA game would have reasonable performance 6 years after release like most AAA games out there.
There are very clearly PvP oriented antiquities out there such as the Snow Treader shoes, which will never go anywhere near one of Alcast's recommended PvE builds. To say nothing of the siege weapon.
Why must I PvE for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours on end to get them? Running through dungeons, farming nodes, going up and down beaches murdering mudcrabs, scouring for treasure maps, digging holes in the dirt, porting from zone to zone, etc., all of this stuff is 1000% focused and exclusive to PvE just to get a pair of shoes so when Xv1ers spam bombard, encase, etc., I can still actually move. This apparently is OK, but when a few of the hundreds and hundreds of antiquities happen to be in a zone where PvP is POSSIBLE - but not required - it's worthy of complaining.
It's almost like the ZoS developers failed to personally consult me and cater the game totally to my preferences and instead decided that the antiquity system should touch and be a part of every existing system so everyone at certain points would be in their comfort area.
but that's kinda the point? this seems to be designed to be unfun for both groups of players. and IMO, that is NOT good design. as its been pointed out couple of times, they could have implemented it differently. they could have put the same leads into both pvp and pve areas. they could have made leads tradable. they could have made results tradable! imagine being able to sell antiquities that you got through pvp - to pve players the way you can sell outfit runeboxes, pets, etc right now?
the reality is that they have certain modes of content that in their opinion too many players avoid. so they designed the system to "encourage" these players to go into the modes of content, rather then trying to make those modes more fun, or accepting that some of their playerbase just doesn't enjoy certain things and improve content for those that do enjoy it, instead of fiddling with it in occasionally odd ways, to push more players into it.
but oh well. we all would rather attack each other, apparently then unite in shared dissatisfaction.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***8 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭[Quoted post was removed]
You may want to reread the OP. I think you are confused about this thread. It was not started by a PvPer. Having players demand access on their terms to every item is ridiculous.
Imagine making a post claiming developers have abandoned pvp in a thread complaining about developers adding things to pvp zones.
That said... this game has two full zones dedicated to PvP. Regardless of other aspects that speak to lack of support of the PvP community, claiming pvpers should find a real pvp game is [snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 8, 2020 6:22PM2 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭the reality is that they have certain modes of content that in their opinion too many players avoid.
I don't agree that they put things in content people avoid. Quite the opposite - they put things in content people do to give people additional rewards for doing stuff, and encourage people to try new things. Just because I don't run blackheart haven on a daily basis does not mean it is content people avoid.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the reality is that they have certain modes of content that in their opinion too many players avoid.
I don't agree that they put things in content people avoid. Quite the opposite - they put things in content people do to give people additional rewards for doing stuff, and encourage people to try new things. Just because I don't run blackheart haven on a daily basis does not mean it is content people avoid.
a lot of people DO avoid dungeons. and even more people DO avoid imperial city. not everyone does, sure, but enough that ZoS keeps trying to get more and more people to try it in some way. did you notice how many of the leads, including mythic ones are in DLC zones? want to take a wild guess what ZoS is trying to do here? (they are trying to get more people to either subscribe, or buy those DLCs is what they are trying to do)dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭the reality is that they have certain modes of content that in their opinion too many players avoid.
I don't agree that they put things in content people avoid. Quite the opposite - they put things in content people do to give people additional rewards for doing stuff, and encourage people to try new things. Just because I don't run blackheart haven on a daily basis does not mean it is content people avoid.
a lot of people DO avoid dungeons. and even more people DO avoid imperial city. not everyone does, sure, but enough that ZoS keeps trying to get more and more people to try it in some way. did you notice how many of the leads, including mythic ones are in DLC zones? want to take a wild guess what ZoS is trying to do here? (they are trying to get more people to either subscribe, or buy those DLCs is what they are trying to do)
Or they are trying to provide meaningful new rewards to all areas of the game, to make playing in every zone rewarding in some way, and to fully integrate the antiquities system in this and future zones. Is it to sell more DLCs? Who knows. But if the leads had *only* been in the base game and in the current Chapter, the system would have been panned as poorly integrated.
I think it is OK for an MMO to ask us to do things we don't normally do if we want "all the things." We have the option not to get "all the things."4 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the reality is that they have certain modes of content that in their opinion too many players avoid.
I don't agree that they put things in content people avoid. Quite the opposite - they put things in content people do to give people additional rewards for doing stuff, and encourage people to try new things. Just because I don't run blackheart haven on a daily basis does not mean it is content people avoid.
a lot of people DO avoid dungeons. and even more people DO avoid imperial city. not everyone does, sure, but enough that ZoS keeps trying to get more and more people to try it in some way. did you notice how many of the leads, including mythic ones are in DLC zones? want to take a wild guess what ZoS is trying to do here? (they are trying to get more people to either subscribe, or buy those DLCs is what they are trying to do)
Or they are trying to provide meaningful new rewards to all areas of the game, to make playing in every zone rewarding in some way, and to fully integrate the antiquities system in this and future zones. Is it to sell more DLCs? Who knows. But if the leads had *only* been in the base game and in the current Chapter, the system would have been panned as poorly integrated.
I think it is OK for an MMO to ask us to do things we don't normally do if we want "all the things." We have the option not to get "all the things."
but there is a middle ground here. having leads drom from multiple locations so that you can farm them in a DLC zone OR base game zone. having the same leads drop from pvp AND pve activities. some leads already do that so its not exactly out of the question either. what you are saying is a much nicer, more positive way of saying - they want us to do content we don't normally do, even if - especially if it means paying extra.
P.S. I am personaly taking an option not to do all things. but that doesn't mean I'm blind to what they seem to be trying to accomplish here. i'm just too stubborn and set in my ways to give into it.Edited by Linaleah on June 8, 2020 4:51PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭but there is a middle ground here. having leads drom from multiple locations so that you can farm them in a DLC zone OR base game zone. having the same leads drop from pvp AND pve activities. some leads already do that so its not exactly out of the question either. what you are saying is a much nicer, more positive way of saying - they want us to do content we don't normally do, even if - especially if it means paying extra.
P.S. I am personaly taking an option not to do all things. but that doesn't mean I'm blind to what they seem to be trying to accomplish here. i'm just too stubborn and set in my ways to give into it.
I don't agree that leads should drop from PvP and PvE. I feel that leads SHOULD be in specific zones, as it encourages players to experience new things for some things. I think it would cheapen the system if every lead dropped from everything you did; doing so would also likely make every lead MUCH MUCH rarer. The same is true if they took a bunch of leads in DLC zones and also put them in base game zones.
I look at this game as a subscription game with the option to avoid a subscription and handicap yourself, because the idea of playing this game without a crafting bag sounds like a terrifyingly awful experience.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭[Quoted post was removed]
I'm curious. How do you accidentally queue up for Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds if you don't want to be there?
Imagine deliberately queueing up for a PVP-enabled zone and then getting upset when PVP happens. Maybe it would be wise for such players to swap to a PVE-only game or stick to the PVE-only zones?Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 8, 2020 6:23PM4 -
Elvenheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LukosCreyden wrote: »PvP is a big part of the game. It is absolutely ok to not like it, but if you go into a PvP zone, you should prepare for it.
You can do what I do: have a set up dedicated for gathering/fishing in a pvp zone.
The goal of the build is to make your character as obnoxious and annoying to fight as possible. Make yourself as tanky as possible and fill your bars with defensive skills and "annoy" skills.
You don't need to be a pvper to make this work.
Most players will avoid you as soon as they see you health bar. The rest will likely get bored when they realise they can't make your health dip. Sure, you will likely be unable to kill them either, but that isnt the point.
Oooh, I like this post! I wonder how I would go about doing something like that? I usually just play pve/DPS, but I could dedicate an alt to a build like this...0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭[Quoted post was removed]
You may want to reread the OP. I think you are confused about this thread. It was not started by a PvPer. Having players demand access on their terms to every item is ridiculous.
Imagine making a post claiming developers have abandoned pvp in a thread complaining about developers adding things to pvp zones.
That said... this game has two full zones dedicated to PvP. Regardless of other aspects that speak to lack of support of the PvP community, claiming pvpers should find a real pvp game is [snip]
Nope, not confused. I'm responding to the pvpers complaining about having to do pve content in a pve oriented game.
I get it though, lots of people who claim to be Pvper's are really only interested in fighting players who are no match for them.
That I'm used to. Not use to players hiding in 2 whole zones complaining about pve content instead of playing games that are aimed at true Pvper's with an entire game dedicated to them.
The game is marketed at both PvE and PvP, it didn't even have trials in the beginning.
Players that don't even PvP make the most noise.
Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 8, 2020 6:25PM2 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
I'm curious. How do you accidentally queue up for Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds if you don't want to be there?
Imagine deliberately queueing up for a PVP-enabled zone and then getting upset when PVP happens. Maybe it would be wise for such players to swap to a PVE-only game or stick to the PVE-only zones?
Killing a player as he's finishing off a boss isn't pvp now is it? Getting ganked as you come out of a dialogue with an npc is pvping? That's not pvp, that's simply (PKing) player killing.
[snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]
Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 8, 2020 6:30PMThere is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway4 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Almost the whole game is focused on pve and yet people like you still complain about pvp, amazing...
Especially considering IC is like 85% PVE.
OP there is nothing constructive here. You dont like IC. Nothing is going to change that it seems. Say what you want about antiquities, they put leads behind virtually all type of content. Certainly the fairest approach.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People are complaining about not getting leads immediately because they want all the items this week
The Antiquities system is something that was added which contributes to the long term of the game.
Which is why there are leads everywhere.
You may not like PvP having leads but I’m sure there are various PvP players who appreciate it.
Of course people are hating the grind if all they’re doing is farming leads. It’s supposed to be something you do as you play - like crafting.
I don’t think it’s a bad idea that there are leads for pvp play, I think having them be exclusive is the issue.
And again there are literally dozens of leads that are locked behind PvE activities that PvPers don't like to do. Fishing. Dungeons. Trials. Pathfinder achievements which include delve completions. There are leads that are only exclusive to those activities. This is why a lot of people think that PvEers have a chip on their shoulder. Everyone has to suffer through THEIR content, but Mara forbid it if they actually have to do something they don't want to to get a special item from the system.
There's a massive difference between a chore you can just hold your nose and do when you're in a mental state to do an unpleasant or boring task, and one where your entire ability to do it relies on others allowing you to do it and even intentionally annoying you and making it as miserable as possible.
Leads probably shouldn't be in such easily blocked PVP or Vet Trials.7 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭TequilaFire wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
You may want to reread the OP. I think you are confused about this thread. It was not started by a PvPer. Having players demand access on their terms to every item is ridiculous.
Imagine making a post claiming developers have abandoned pvp in a thread complaining about developers adding things to pvp zones.
That said... this game has two full zones dedicated to PvP. Regardless of other aspects that speak to lack of support of the PvP community, claiming pvpers should find a real pvp game is [snip]
[Quoted post was removed]
The game is marketed at both PvE and PvP, it didn't even have trials in the beginning.
Players that don't even PvP make the most noise.
Except I'm not complaining about pvp, dying to Pvper's in a pvp zone or anything like that am I? I'm responding to Pvper's making the most noise about having to participate in pve content in a pve oriented game. Point of fact I do both and love a good zerg or a romp through BG'S.
Marketed at both? At the beginning sure. X amount of years later and there's a whopping 2 whole zones dedicated to pvp, one considered a complete failure by most that fails to attract either Pvper's or pver's.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on June 8, 2020 6:31PMThere is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway1 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »I have to do pve content in a pve oriented game!? Gasp! The horror of it! This special mindset never gets old lol.
You could always stop hiding in an MMO centered around pve and play a real pvp game. Of course you'd always be facing opponents that want to fight but don't let something as small as a challenge stop you.
PvP Players in a PvE oriented game complaining about having to do PvE content and actually thinking it's the same as PvE players complaining about having to participate in pvp content that even the devs have abandoned and written off. Madness I tell you.
You may want to reread the OP. I think you are confused about this thread. It was not started by a PvPer. Having players demand access on their terms to every item is ridiculous.
Imagine making a post claiming developers have abandoned pvp in a thread complaining about developers adding things to pvp zones.
That said... this game has two full zones dedicated to PvP. Regardless of other aspects that speak to lack of support of the PvP community, claiming pvpers should find a real pvp game is stupid. Stop being toxic.
Nope, not confused. I'm responding to the pvpers complaining about having to do pve content in a pve oriented game.
I get it though, lots of people who claim to be Pvper's are really only interested in fighting players who are no match for them.
That I'm used to. Not use to players hiding in 2 whole zones complaining about pve content instead of playing games that are aimed at true Pvper's with an entire game dedicated to them.
The game is marketed at both PvE and PvP, it didn't even have trials in the beginning.
Players that don't even PvP make the most noise.
Except I'm not complaining about pvp, dying to Pvper's in a pvp zone or anything like that am I? I'm responding to Pvper's making the most noise about having to participate in pve content in a pve oriented game. Point of fact I do both and love a good zerg or a romp through BG'S.
Marketed at both? At the beginning sure. X amount of years later and there's a whopping 2 whole zones dedicated to pvp, one considered a complete failure by most that fails to attract either Pvper's or pver's.
You are entitled to your opinion of course but not everyone shares it.
2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
I'm curious. How do you accidentally queue up for Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds if you don't want to be there?
Imagine deliberately queueing up for a PVP-enabled zone and then getting upset when PVP happens. Maybe it would be wise for such players to swap to a PVE-only game or stick to the PVE-only zones?
Killing a player as he's finishing off a boss isn't pvp now is it? Getting ganked as you come out of a dialogue with an npc is pvping? That's not pvp, that's simply (PKing) player killing.
[snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]
You mean to say that a PvPvE zone in which bosses grant Tel Var and killing players nets you half their Tel Var isn't explicitly designed to...hmmm...kill players and get their stuff?
ZOS knows that, you know.
Its kind of hard to miss that when its been a major part of IC since launch and players complain about it every single time they feel compelled to set foot in a PVP zone by the fear of missing out.
ZOS designed Imperial City and Cyrodiil for "player killing." There's "kill X players" quests. There's achievements for killing players. There's AP rewards for killing players. There's even an achievement for killing 100 players in the Imperial City Arena which is a quest location.
In other words, while you might not find it sporting, I find it very hard to believe that you can queue up for a PVP-enabled zone and not expect enemy players to try to kill you. ZOS certainly expects them to and encourages them to, even in the middle of a quest boss fight arena. If you object to "player killing," just give the PVP zones a miss.
And keep in mind, ZOS knows all of the above...and still put leads in Imperial City.4 -
CMDR_Un1k0rn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In my opinion there are not enough leads in PvP zones.In-game username: Un1korn | Happy member of the PCNA UESP guild (Resident Daggerfall Covenant enjoyer) | Main & basically only character: Crucian Vulpin, Imperial Dragonknight of the Daggerfall Covenant, and Undaunted Bulwark (I tank) | Mountain bike enjoyer and vulpine appreciator | If you know me from PCEU: No | To ZOS: THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME BRING MY HORSE INTO BATTLE!4 -
Fur_like_snow✭✭✭✭✭
✭This game needs more items locked behind pvp not less. The band should be a non issue for PvE only players since it’s primarily a pvp item. No serious dd is running the band the way I understand it +crit damage is more impactful than what the band gives. So if you don’t pvp what’s the point? If your intention is to just bank the ring two seconds after you get it that sounds like a OP issue not a ZoS or PvP issue.3 -
Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don’t see what so difficult about looking up a pvp build for your favourite class there’s even guides on how to pvp.4 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Did it not occur to anyone that the reason they are in PVP or the Dungeons is to encourage new players to try out and experience what else the game has to offer?
Getting ganked without a chance against the CP 810 PvP killing machines at all and getting frustrated by not being able to get the leads?
I guess that is mission acomplished, then.
Instead of sobbing to the devs about this, why not treat the lead as a stealth mission? Hide, run, use invis pots, and avoid as much combat as possible until you reach the objective?
It's not like there's any serious penalty for dying in this game, and absolutely none for PVP deaths. So you get as many 'tries' as you want, and chances are you are more patient and persistent than my PVP brethren.
You get one piece of content that isn't face-roll easy for a change.Edited by Minalan on June 8, 2020 8:19PM7
This discussion has been closed.