The undaunted certification - zvavi is bored in quarantine

zvavi

So, as it is needless to say eso does a really bad job at conveying the essence the trinity roles into the game.
Healers believe the only thing they should do is keep their allies alive. Or those that think they need to heal and deal damage.
Tanks believe they should control all the adds to fulfill their job. Or those that believe they need to only taunt only one add, block, and that's all their job should do.
Damage dealers are sure that as long as they deal some damage, it is what they signed up for. Or those that believe that unless damage dealers hit huge numbers they have no place in harder content (i am looking at you dlc dungeons).

A more extreme example I have is an irl friend that was sure she should choose the tank role, because as a melee character she would often find herself in some cross-fire.

Yep. exactly. Many different views, some of them arguably very wrong. And the game teaches us nothing about it. This leads to a lot of frustration. Damage Dealers that have 3 different builds (depending on the amount of support they are getting). People that believe a tank’s job in pve is to taunt, and hold block. People that blame their healer for not healing them, when in fact they were standing in damage, behind the healer, where he can't really see them.

Now, most of the problems are actually created by us, as a community, but i wouldn’t say it is our fault. Clashes between players are natural, nothing to do about it, and to be honest, as a community, from my interactions with it, eso has a great one.

The suggestion of adding dungeon roll certifications was suggested already a few times, and I advocated it probably a bit too much. So i am gonna list the few strengths it can have, if made well:
1. Introductions to your role, and what is expected of each.

I already introduced this point, but to be honest it has much deeper meaning than what I already said. The bar should be low. Not anything hard. Just enough to make your teams dungeon run comfortable.

2. Reinforcement of team effort -

while it is impossible to create this strong feeling in players, hints towards it can change a bit of the player’s perspective, and maybe help players be more open, and less toxic.

3. Establishing minimum requirements -

i mean yes, it is a controversial topic. But I hope we can agree that no one enjoys a run where the boss chases you all over the place when you are the damage dealer, or when your full fledged tank that has maybe 4k dps, is over 50% of the group’s damage. important: note that the certifications do not come to bar people from content, but try to help them understand their role. While higher levels will have stricter requirements, i don't think that a tank that is fixed on holding 1 add while 2 stone watchers are shredding their teammates have a place in vDoM. First he has to understand the importance of protecting your allies from hard hitting enemies.

4. A place where someone can get random traited, non-set, base armor and weapons that suit their role, and explanation about the various weapons.

Many newer players end up with just…. Bad gear. I remember that at first I was farming only vvardenfell just to have an up to date ‘set’ that always declined with time anyway. Gear progression from level 1 to 160 cp is unintuitive and poorly made, and it affects group play. Adding lootable up to level enchanted (random traits) non-set green items, with purple weapons, will help immensely. And since obviously it can't be free, put a price tag on it. 1k gold.

5. Introduction to basic mechanics

As an example, the original tutorial taught the players to bash. And then they are thrown into a world where… let's be honest, it doesn't matter. While in the normal certification (first level certification) i wouldn't require it, veteran certification should have drawbacks if it is not done. And the undaunted certification should make not interrupting dire consequences if you don't do it fast enough (5 seconds?). Many mechanics are very unintuitive for some, but very basic knowledge for others. It will help keep everyone more aware, and rid them off the feeling of helplessness. A more simple mechanic that should be easily introducable, is the food buff.

6.Raising the floor.

A huge improvement zenimax studios is trying to make in the game. But other than demolishing cp (a different topic all together) and standralizing easy to get equipment for lower levels (which i already covered), undaunted npc that can be questioned about the different skills and their uses, are well overdue. Player base knowledge about the game should come from the game itself, not other players. And making more knowledge available to all inside the game, while less refined than outside knowledge, should do wonders in raising the floor.

7. Opening the option to queue for multiple roles on one character (example, queue for healer or damage dealer).

let's be honest, sometimes, we players are doing incredibly silly things. With such a system behind it, it will be possible to implement a multi role queue while minimizing the effect it has on fake roles. And good implementation will lead into faster queue time for everyone.

8. Lowering the amount of fake roles in the queue.

While I do agree it can't stop it entirely and maybe even barely affect it, adding the requirements of the certification for tanks will at least add them the option of slotting taunt (that some people are just too lazy to get) and easier access to s/b equipment, and basically almost eliminating it from the veteran and undaunted queues.

9. It will help people that are not yet ready for dlc dungeons (normal or veteran), or those that don't feel like doing them to exclude those dungeons from random queue

you can even add the option to choose the level of certification you are using to queue, many players want to be able to exclude dlc from their random, and to be honest it is a fair request, especially since the difficulty spike is huge.

After I established my point of view on the matter, let's delve into how I think and should be done, while obviously constructed around the strengths it should have (listed above).

Example for damage dealer normal certification:
You go to the certification tab inside the group finder, and queue for it. It loads you into the certification instance.

there are 3 instances to it, very similar to how main quest and harbotage works, just that this time, it is “The Undaunted Arena” existing under the undaunted tents

You find there Maj al-Ragath (Gilirion for healers, Urgalarg for tanks) which offers you various conversation options notice that higher level (veterant, undaunted, and truly undaunted) will have different dialog options.

The standardized equipment sack. First one you get on every character is free of charge. Later ones cost 1000 gold to not be abused, but still have a great deal to fall to instead of repairing bad old broken gear for newer players (which costs way too much). Consists of 7 green armors of one type (light if mag/healer, medium if stam, heavy if tank) and a set of purple weapons (fire lightning and ice for mag. Dual wield, 2h and bow for stam, 2 s/b+frost for tank, 2 healing sticks + 1 lightning staff for healer.)
Explanation about what you are gonna do after you enter the arena, example for normal version:
Dialog option: “What should i do when i am inside”
Undaunted answer: “well, you are the damage dealer, your job is to get them, before they get you and your friends.”
Dialog option: “what equipment should i search for”
Undaunted answer: “well, the equipment sack we offer is basic, but should do, other than that there are special sets with additional strong bonuses that can make you truely undaunted.”
Dialog option: “i...wont die… right?”
Undaunted answer: “what an amusing thing to ask! Usually new recruits just go in to slash things. Don’t worry, your healer should take care of it as long as you stand where he can see you. Just focus on bashing things!

Well, unless you stand in fire, some fools can’t be saved.”
Example for conversations for the different levels:
Dialog vet option: “What should i do when i am inside”
Undaunted answer: “well, you are the damage dealer, your job is to get them, before they get you and your friends. Just make sure you kill the small fries if you feel like your team is going to get overwhelmed.”
Dialog undaunted option: “What should i do when i am inside”
Undaunted answer: “Well, you are the damage dealer, but you should fight like true undaunted. Kill those who you know that will be dangerous quick, bash their face, stay out of the rain of fire, kite the melee ones that focus you into other enemies so they burn in your magics and arrows, TEAR THEM ALL APART BEFORE THEY MANAGE ANYTHING

Uh, sorry, I got over emotional for a moment.”
Additional dialog unlocked: “bash?”
Undaunted answer: “uh this? Sometimes enemies try to cast powerful spells that can be devastating, you have to interrupt them, while some skills can do so, the most basic solution is to put your weapon in a defensive position, and then shove it in their face.”

Obviously the various text options are built to help, the combat is the real part of the certification quest. The tests will always have 2 npc assisting you in your team to stimulate the missing roles. Examples for damage dealer normal quest

will be killing one 200k hp enemy bone colossus, that has three 10k hp enemy adds spawn every 15 seconds, with occasional small red aoe’s falling on them from the sky (small aoe, 10 second duration, 20 seconds cooldown, to die from it you need to stand in it for really long, and that's if you dont heal yourself, healer npc mitigates most of the damage, healing you.)

Example of same vet quest option:

will be killing one 400k hp enemy bone colossus in addition to one 400k hp mage. The bone colossus retains his own mechanics(strengthened a bit, in addition mage is hitting you (low damage, is mitigated by healer heals, if you stand in them) and needs to sometimes be interrupted, or he hits the group for a lot of damage(swirly fire damage from hel ra ). You can outheal it if you don't interrupt, in addition he will also have almost one shot big aoe explosion (CoH1 mage did it good). In this test healer starts providing you with synergies and the tank lays down a blood altar. Enemies can be balanced to be in line with the vision zos has for base requirements

Example for the undaunted version:

somewhat combination of 2nd boss of vDoM and the mage from vFL last boss in hm. Big 3,000,000 boss that spawns dangerous add (300k hp) every 25%. Tank only taunts one of them. Second one will be on you if you didn't kill the previous one if the tank has one on him for longer than 30 seconds he dies. They have the ice attacks of stone watchers (a lot of small aoe) but non interruptible. Mage boss (immune) goes down and casts the interruptible spin for 10 seconds at 80% 60% and 40%

Example for tank normal version:

2 dds with you, hp of boss is the same as solo version, just he heals. Fast, as much as 1 damage dealer deals. So if the tank runs around, boss heals faster than being damaged by ground aoes, dds have 10k health, so if you lose agro and boss heavy attacks, it one shots them. Obviously it loses agro the moment you dont taunt, and the npc damage dealer starts running away from boss, with boss behind him. Heavy attack hits for 20k unblocked, light attacks for 3k unblocked. Boss is immune for you.

Obviously if one of your team members dies the undaunted will be unhappy with you, and send you back into the arena, even if you managed to finish it off. (healer and tank will get it more, but dd can be hit by this disqualification too). Finishing the quest for the first time for each role gifts you some experience (equivalent to a random normal after daily bonus) and the ability to queue as that role for normal (non dlc) dungeons. Veteran gives you access to normal dlc and vet dungeons. Undaunted to vet dlc dungeons, and truly undaunted is just for fun (yey a title!).

The idea obviously need polishing but it is a more polished version of what was already presented at the forums, and all the numbers and mechanics could (and should) be adjusted so they reflect better the minimum requirements, using already in game values from dungeons (half the hp of bosses and adds that they spawn, BC2 and CoH2 last bosses come to mind, normal and vet versions.)

Anyway, ye, zvavi is bored in quarantine, discuss.

Dominion_Nightblade

Who is zvavi?

Taylor_MB

zvavi wrote: »

So, as it is needless to say eso does a really bad job at conveying the essence the trinity roles into the game.
Healers believe the only thing they should do is keep their allies alive. Or those that think they need to heal and deal damage.
Tanks believe they should control all the adds to fulfill their job. Or those that believe they need to only taunt only one add, block, and that's all their job should do.
Damage dealers are sure that as long as they deal some damage, it is what they signed up for. Or those that believe that unless damage dealers hit huge numbers they have no place in harder content (i am looking at you dlc dungeons).

Asides from trials, that IS pretty much 99% of what those roles need to do, even DLC dungeons.

If you wanted people to read 1000 words you started off way wrong.

Mr_Walker

Taylor_MB wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

So, as it is needless to say eso does a really bad job at conveying the essence the trinity roles into the game.
Healers believe the only thing they should do is keep their allies alive. Or those that think they need to heal and deal damage.
Tanks believe they should control all the adds to fulfill their job. Or those that believe they need to only taunt only one add, block, and that's all their job should do.
Damage dealers are sure that as long as they deal some damage, it is what they signed up for. Or those that believe that unless damage dealers hit huge numbers they have no place in harder content (i am looking at you dlc dungeons).

Asides from trials, that IS pretty much 99% of what those roles need to do, even DLC dungeons.

If you wanted people to read 1000 words you started off way wrong.

^^^^

I'm not a l33t player, and I pug dungeons, so yeah, pretty much just want tanks to tank, heals to heal, and deeps to deep. Anything extra is a bonus.

SammiSakura

Oh jesus, i should have known I would find you here Zvavi! You are always bored!

bmnoble

The biggest issue I see with adding a dungeon roll certification system at this point is:

Most people will never know it even exists once its added, still plenty of people who don't even know about the guild finder or how to use it.

If its optional people will ignore it for the most part if its forced people will ask it gets removed in not so nice language here on the forums.

And most will find some way to cheese it and get it done as quick as possible, then forget about all they learnt just like with the tutorials you do when you start a new character.


All I expect from the roles in dungeons:

For the tank:

Is keep up time on the taunt for the boss, keep the boss facing away from the group and the strong adds taunted preferably keeping adds away from the healer, anything more is a bonus

For healers:

Simply healing, keeping the group alive, if they manage that then giving resources to the group. If they can manage those without getting killed and feel like adding some damage as well I won't complain.

For Damage dealers:

Staying alive to do damage, do around 20K dps each that is it not big trial dps numbers expected of you, if they can manage that then, rez fallen group members and help in mechanics that require most of the groups involvement.

For every group member:

Bash the boss when its about to insta kill the tank or a group member that has been immobilized by the boss with no means of breaking free, too many people get into the habit of letting the tank or healer do all the mechanics.

If your near a group member affected by something like the getting wrapped in a cocoon or turned into a statue that requires you to use the synergy button to free them do it.

Luckylancer

New concept: tanks job is allowing people to stay still and damage. I que my healer as tank in normal dungeons, I dont tank and I heal. DDs face tank everything and do their parses at the same time lol

tim99

somehow i made it through the text. when i started reading it, i was waiting for some bs, which usually comes soon and make me just go back and look for another thread... but this one was getting more interesting the longer i read.

the examples are really well thought, non toxic (i even miss some toxiness but that makes this thread more serious i guess) and totally doable even for the worst player if you just do some basics of your role.

so i absolutely support this, even think it would be fun to this tutorial-like quests for all roles on all toons.

It wont reduce the fakeroles at all (with which i'm fine as long as the headless-chicken tactic is not combined with it), but it will make sure everyone understood at least things.


real happened dialogue in a random group (normal-mode dlc dungeon):
pre-story:

(i explained each boss mechanic as it was a team of new player which seems to know each other, and they were friendly in chat, listened to all, really understood everything fast after explaining and on the comments i could see that they really had fun in playing, and it was infectious fun (not sure about that translation, but they had fun, that made me having fun as well thats why)

unholy grave, fire chamber boss:
me: "ok, this one could be a bit tricky. tank, which taunt do you use? we have to pull him to a special location at a special time."
tank (2x s'n'b, so no faketank): "i'm really sorry, but i do not have any taunts yet at all, and also no skillpoints left"

i needed 10 seconds, to get (or realize) what i just heard.

outcome:

We managed it anyway on the first try (i do a random normal from time to time just for fun, but im always surprised again HOW easy even dlc are on normal).... the one who just had aggro by chance ran to the specific point with the boss and we even got that achievment because i wrote the number to the chat and didnt activate the synergy for the correct platform.
So it took longer as expected, cause we did all secret bosses as well ofc, but was one of the most fun i had in dungeons for quite a while. And thats the deeper meaning of the game, to do something you really enjoy, right? so i was happy to take that time, no matter how long it will take.
But after the run, i still made the tank to promise me to get a taunt right after

zvavi

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Asides from trials, that IS pretty much 99% of what those roles need to do, even DLC dungeons.

Just that Those examples are contradicting each other...

Mr_Walker wrote: »

I'm not a l33t player, and I pug dungeons, so yeah, pretty much just want tanks to tank, heals to heal, and deeps to deep. Anything extra is a bonus.

We are almost on the same page tbh, I want tanks to tank, healers to heal and support and damage dealers to focus on dealing damage. Problem is, if healers just focus on healing, and damage dealers focus only on dealing damage, who applies major breach? And it is around 8-10% bonus damage mind you, in your description, without formally admitting whose "job" it is, groups might end up without it, leading to frustration from both dds, that don't deal enough damage, and healer/tank, that their dds don't deal enough damage. If healer doesn't provide dds with resources, they are forced to change their setup for less expensive skills, demolishing both their damage and aoe potential. So your "heals to heal" and "deeps to deeps" are contradicting each other.

tim99 wrote: »

but this one was getting more interesting the longer i read.

I am happy you found the read interesting, you shared a story, so my turn.

so I was pugging vDLC on magden (which I really enjoy btw, her damage is not top notch, but she does just fine). I got into vDoM, and to be fair, the group was not experienced. Tank consistently lost agro, it became worse when he had to hold 2 targets at a time, healer was sticking to healing only mantra, that tbh didn't work that well as well, his awareness of the health of the group while under the pressure of running away from the various aoe, rendered him not as useful on that regard. And the other damage dealer... Let's just say % of damage on combat metrics didn't fall under 80%. And that he wasn't alive a lot. After few wipes on the second boss, the other damage dealer bid us farewell. I jumped on the opportunity to invite a friend. Suddenly everything went smoother, with the additional damage tank had less pressure and I could tilt my focus a bit towards healing him more. During the orb boss we have established new tactics, of taking it Uber slow, light attacking the orb in the middle to generate ult, before nuking all 2-4 aurorans together with destro ult + northern storm. To nuke them. Worked pretty well. I mean. It worked out. At some point tank asked in chat something like "do I need trial gear for it?"(before I invited the friend) I answered right away that it has more to do with experience, and that he will get there.

So ye, another thing that i didn't include in my list of why to do it, it can also help people get used to their role, in a non demanding nor blaming environment. Which is really needed for tank and healer. Heck, even for dd, hitting a dummy, let's be honest, is [snip] boring.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

xXMeowMeowXx

To me it is a waste of resources from the Devs that could be used to fix say....{Skills Not Working in Combat}

There is already a plethora of tutorials on ESO’ site and YT videos. They pretty much go over every aspect of PvE and dungeon mechanics.

If people are to lazy to use those resources, then they certainly are to lazy to get better.

zvavi

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

To me it is a waste of resources from the Devs that could be used to fix say....{Skills Not Working in Combat}

There is already a plethora of tutorials on ESO’ site and YT videos. They pretty much go over every aspect of PvE and dungeon mechanics.

If people are to lazy to use those resources, then they certainly are to lazy to get better.

While I do agree that fixing the game should be prioritized, I think that the suggestion is not more time consuming, and much better for the game's health, than the antiquities system.

Elwendryll

I only run with my guild members/friends, but I like the concept. Not sure it's necessary since anyone you get grouped with can teach you, but it's still interesting

anitajoneb17_ESO

I suggest an online training and certificate before you're even allowed to buy the game. Best way to ensure you never encounter any newb' in your precious little dungeon runs.

How about a "toxic personalities" test of the same kind ? And why not an "elitist detection test"... ?

zvavi

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I suggest an online training and certificate before you're even allowed to buy the game. Best way to ensure you never encounter any newb' in your precious little dungeon runs.

How about a "toxic personalities" test of the same kind ? And why not an "elitist detection test"... ?

The whole idea is to add more tools for people in-game, including tanks and healers (for now only dds have vMA) so I don't see how your comment about online training is about this thread.

Additionally I agree about toxicity being needed to address. One thing they could do for it is to show that they actually do something about it. A mail for when they are done dealing with a report (regardless of the end result) would do wonders in motivating players to report more, but that's derailing the thread.

anitajoneb17_ESO

zvavi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I suggest an online training and certificate before you're even allowed to buy the game. Best way to ensure you never encounter any newb' in your precious little dungeon runs.

How about a "toxic personalities" test of the same kind ? And why not an "elitist detection test"... ?

The whole idea is to add more tools for people in-game, including tanks and healers (for now only dds have vMA) so I don't see how your comment about online training is about this thread.

Additionally I agree about toxicity being needed to address. One thing they could do for it is to show that they actually do something about it. A mail for when they are done dealing with a report (regardless of the end result) would do wonders in motivating players to report more, but that's derailing the thread.

An online training and certificate has everything to do with your suggestion : according to you, they would forbid access to group dungeons to everyone who doesn't fulfill what you think are universal playstyle requirements for ESO. But in this case, they'd have to be organised before buying the game (just like you have hardware requirements mentioned to you before buying the game).
That would sound like "Please be aware that ESO has an awful lot of group content - since it is an MMO - but you'll only have access to this content if you're "good enough", according to our community's criteria. "

See how silly that sounds for a game that's designed and advertised to "play how you want" ?

If you want people to play your way stop PUGging and get your own group. Problem solved.

No tutorial or tool will ever be useful (let alone a "test") to anyone who wants to play for fun and doesn't care about "being good". And for those who want to be good, there's tons of stuff available already.

Grandchamp1989

I would love for role certification to be a thing in dungeons.
And the Undaunted are THE go to guild for dungeon crawling so it makes sense to center it around them.

Let people know that there's more to the game than

Tank: Taunt hold block
Healer: Tab a healing spell every 15 seconds
DD: You don't have to stand in fire to fire while spamming your heavy attacks

I'm a fan!

Grandchamp1989

bmnoble wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with adding a dungeon roll certification system at this point is:

Most people will never know it even exists once its added, still plenty of people who don't even know about the guild finder or how to use it.

If its optional people will ignore it for the most part if its forced people will ask it gets removed in not so nice language here on the forums.

And most will find some way to cheese it and get it done as quick as possible, then forget about all they learnt just like with the tutorials you do when you start a new character.


All I expect from the roles in dungeons:

For the tank:

Is keep up time on the taunt for the boss, keep the boss facing away from the group and the strong adds taunted preferably keeping adds away from the healer, anything more is a bonus

For healers:

Simply healing, keeping the group alive, if they manage that then giving resources to the group. If they can manage those without getting killed and feel like adding some damage as well I won't complain.

For Damage dealers:

Staying alive to do damage, do around 20K dps each that is it not big trial dps numbers expected of you, if they can manage that then, rez fallen group members and help in mechanics that require most of the groups involvement.

For every group member:

Bash the boss when its about to insta kill the tank or a group member that has been immobilized by the boss with no means of breaking free, too many people get into the habit of letting the tank or healer do all the mechanics.

If your near a group member affected by something like the getting wrapped in a cocoon or turned into a statue that requires you to use the synergy button to free them do it.

This is spot on, I would add CC for tanks tho, way too few tanks carry it and they're first line of defense to hold off hordes of adds.

zvavi

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I suggest an online training and certificate before you're even allowed to buy the game. Best way to ensure you never encounter any newb' in your precious little dungeon runs.

How about a "toxic personalities" test of the same kind ? And why not an "elitist detection test"... ?

The whole idea is to add more tools for people in-game, including tanks and healers (for now only dds have vMA) so I don't see how your comment about online training is about this thread.

Additionally I agree about toxicity being needed to address. One thing they could do for it is to show that they actually do something about it. A mail for when they are done dealing with a report (regardless of the end result) would do wonders in motivating players to report more, but that's derailing the thread.

An online training and certificate has everything to do with your suggestion : according to you, they would forbid access to group dungeons to everyone who doesn't fulfill what you think are universal playstyle requirements for ESO. But in this case, they'd have to be organised before buying the game (just like you have hardware requirements mentioned to you before buying the game).
That would sound like "Please be aware that ESO has an awful lot of group content - since it is an MMO - but you'll only have access to this content if you're "good enough", according to our community's criteria. "

See how silly that sounds for a game that's designed and advertised to "play how you want" ?

If you want people to play your way stop PUGging and get your own group. Problem solved.

No tutorial or tool will ever be useful (let alone a "test") to anyone who wants to play for fun and doesn't care about "being good". And for those who want to be good, there's tons of stuff available already.

Did you even read these examples? you are saying that taunting is too much of a requirement for a tank in a normal dungeon? Or passing a dps test that is built upon in-game dungeon(half the health add spawn from nCoH2/nBC2)? Or... Healing when you queue for healer? The certification is realisticly basic, and if Zo$ thinks that roles should have no requirements, then idk what to tell you.

anitajoneb17_ESO

zvavi wrote: »

you are saying that taunting is too much of a requirement for a tank in a normal dungeon?

I'm saying that normal dungeons do not require a tank at all (and, in fact, most vet dungeons do not require tanking either).
It depends on the group, on the DPS, sometimes the tank is useless, sometimes the healer is useless. Groups with 3DD+tank or 3DD + healer are doing just fine in 99% of the game. Even 4DD groups.
And sometimes classical 2DD+tank+healer groups fail for a number of reasons that may or may not be related to the tank's and the healer's competence.
And that's all the fun. That's what makes each run different and fun : it is because people are different and play differently. Why anyone would even think of homogenizing this is beyond me.

Just find yourself playmates of your liking instead of asking ZOS to format them (us) for you.

Alternatively, you can ask ZOS to provide you with NPC allies for group content. They'd know all the strategies, all the mechanics, they would DPS, tank and heal the way they're supposed to, they'd be available 24/7, they'd always be polite, they'd never blame you and never kick you.
Even if they were perfectly coded, I'm ready to bet you'd find it "boring".