Why were monster sets nerfed?

Kadoin

BalticBlues wrote: »

There is a LIMIT for all of us tanks, and if ZOS now reduces what we can hold as tank by lowering our resources, it reduces the amount of LOWER CP people we can pug with.

It's true, and it seems these days the only "mechanics" the game has are pointless DPS checks to either swamp you or one shot to add to the game's problems. Couple that with lag, poor balance, nerfs because of powercreep, etc. making both PvE and PvP complete trash.

The dumb part about it all is that the powercreep is IF and ONLY IF you use certain sets, that everyone acknowledges is OP compared to previous gear, and yet they decide to nerf the skills instead and it makes the game more punishing for newer players and no the older or go after other sets that aren't OP in any other context besides WITH the sets that everyone knows are OP in the first place.

To that, I say to ZOS: NO and STOP IT. But considering the patch notes, I doubt they really care about whether players enjoy the game and some of their decisions make no sense.

An example is when New Moon Acolyte came out. Instead of being a set that offered a lot of weapon and spell damage, it should have offered a lot of both crit for hybrids and no WD/SD to make it a hybrid set with a downside. That way it wouldn't be a set to further empower the meta in PvP and PvE, but instead ZOS decided to make a set that completely blows countless older sets out of the water and isn't even really good for a hybrid build because hybrids can't afford that 5% cost increase out of CP and on any other class besides DK. GG ZOS.

THEN, ZOS nerfs Grundwulf -- one of the only sets that could support a build with mag and stam split, and close to a set that ZOS should have introduced for hybrids, because of tank builds in PvP. Really?

Then nerf archmage et. al. but leave all the meta sets untouched. The same sets that introduce the imbalance in the first place because they are mathematically superior to any other set in the game. How little sense does that even make?

If you didn't want to support hybrids with sustain, which also happens to mean supporting tanks too, then why even introduce the sets in the first place? You should have saved every the time and made them generic DPS proc sets so no one bothered farming it or wasting time on complicated builds to have fun in a game mirred with lag and nerfs around every patch corner.

Next patch all my hybrids gonna get dunked by some tard in PvP wearing mythic garbage and the same exact "hybrid sets" that are completely unusable on any real hybrid or tank, and ZOS finds that okay and balanced. Just wow.

But it's okay, because I am good at finding a way to beat the nerf-gun, and when I do, I will find another one since I know ZOS will come nerfing that the next patch.

Every patch is a nerf to me, I'm not even surprised any more.

Iron_Blurr

Calypso589 wrote: »

@BalticBlues These people probably only play with CP810-friends/guildies where they can rely on synergies, not CPxxx pugs.

Not really.

Lemme be clear, it's a mistake to place all of your reliance on synergies OR a monster set to be able to sustain yourself.

CP has nothing to do with synergy consistency. I'm not magically receiving more synergies from an 810 then I would a 450.

No, sometimes in vDLC and Trials, you need to keep a block, at least in HM.
Sometimes you only may have time to pick up a synergy, not a full heavy attack.

There's time for either/or. You, the player, just need to learn to identify when those times are because they are there. There is no boss in this game that is attacking you 100% of the time.

btw: You seem to have a very high opinion about yourself.

For me as just a good player, the consequence of the tank-set-nerfs will be that I have to stop pugging newer vDLC.

It's veteran. It's supposed to be hard. A single monster set should not be the thing that makes or breaks your ability to perform at that level.

If it is, then you're managing your resources poorly.

Stonkeeper getting nerfed is just going to shine a brighter light on that fact.

While i do agree with you, the point of this thread is to highlight the fact that sets like stonekeeper shouldn't have been nerfed in the first place. A good tank should not NEED stonekeeper to be able to do content. But the point is that it should not have been nerfed. All it was doing is slightly helping tanks with resource management in situations where they struggle.
Do you agree that a set like stonekeeper that is rarely used in pve or pvp and is never really required to clear something should not have been nerfed?

Tessitura

So you have to remember, when new gear sets and types are added, that effects all build types possible, the nerf was probably less a marketing attempt and more a attempt to keep people from stacking certain things the devs felt would be too powerful together. So the new Items we are getting might have worked a little "Too" well with older monster sets, now they can either change the new stuff, or change the old stuff, the most obvious option is the old to make room for the new.

Now this might help sell the new content, but it's not really going to be the tipping point for most people I think. It's very unlikely they figured this would sell the expac and far more likely they just felt the need to adjust thing to make room for the new set items and maybe prevent some perceived balance issues that might have cropped up.

Nagastani

BalticBlues wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

It's 4 pages of the same 3 or 4 people talking.

Look again. Most of the last pages are coming just from you.

Calypso589 wrote: »

There's a vast amount of people that agree with one another on the idea that the earth is flat

Sorry, but to me it seems more like there is this one guy who believes the world is spinning all around him.

Let me guess, you are probably in your 20's, you are a fast thinker and you play video games better than most people do. However, imagine, no matter what you will do and how good you are now, even a gaming-god like you will be aging, and when you will be in your 50's some day, and when you got slower, and when you then meet that one guy in his 20's who tells you to think faster, you will recognize that most of the world does not consist of people in their prime.

Finally: Even being an old guy, I can do vDLC content with my CP810 friends. However, in a LOWER CP pug which is not burning through the content, there is a limit of what a tank can hold. Holding a ONE-SHOT-BOSS alone may still be ok with the nerfed tank sets, but holding a ONE-SHOT-BOSS plus x mobs will be not. There is a LIMIT for all of us tanks, and if ZOS now reduces what we can hold as tank by lowering our resources, it reduces the amount of LOWER CP people we can pug with.

Instead of "lowering the gap", as ZOS announced, by nerfing Tanks in PvE ZOS is raising the gap. To a point where CP810 people just won't PUG vDLC anymore or kick lower CP players from it.

Gold Star

In certain veteran content (not necessarily hm) there are situations where a Tank cannot leave a blocked state. You drop the shield you die and do it enough times you can forget about staying in the group. I liked using Engine Guardian and that was a problem with using that because while blocking I'm not able to use many abilities so I have to look for other things to help with this instead.

So with this understanding, the rest of the group has to be able to pull their weight. This is similar to what I've been saying for years now about why it's important to have 'good DPS' because all the Tank can do is block and try to survive another 10 seconds, the healer will usually get lost or swallow their tongue and it's up to the DPS to finish what the tank started.

If the DPS is too new or not experience or does not have a strong rotation then count on Tank and Healer dropping at some point and if the DPS doesn't get it together it's either a reset or the run is over.

Kidgangster101

Calypso589 wrote: »

@montiferus For those sets that were nerfed I think its pretty clear they want to push people toward the mind numbing grind for Antiquities.

*sigh*

This stupid reasoning again.

I'm gonna quote myself here.

Bloodlord's Embrace: Totally outperformed by the skill "Balance." This set will not be used whatsoever by serious PvE tanks. Zero reason to replace current preferred monster sets to slot this chest piece. Potential PvP applications but I haven't heard much murmuring about that. Probably because Balance's resource return and Major Buff is also great in PvP.

Malacath's Band of Brutality: Complete removal of crit chance flies in the face of the current crit meta so once again, this is a ring that will not be slot at all by PvE DPS. Noone's even talking about it. Current monster set preference will remain.

Ring of the Wild Hunt: Gathering in the overworld will be faster. Scroll runners in Cyrodiil may slot this. Battleground Applications are up in the air. Useless in PvE dungeons/Trials. Current monster set preferences will remain.

Snow Treaders: Again, another set that has way more PvP potential than PvE. Current monster set preferences will remain the same. In PvP? I suppose that depends on the game type. These'll be great in Chaosball.

Thrassian Stranglers: This is the ONLY set that magicka compositions will start every trial with as the damage is so good. Depending on how sweaty your group is you'll either reset the instance upon a wipe, or you'll just swap to a non-thrassian build. So depending on how your group decides to operate..........current monster set preferences will remain the same.

Torc of Tonal Consistency: Do I even need to discuss why this one is useless? Current monster set preferences will remain the same.

====================================

So please. Tell me again exactly how it's adding up that these monster set nerfs are designed to push their mythic items?

I repeat: How is anyone concluding that there is a relationship between the monster set nerfs and these ridiculously niche mythic items?

Hello?

Bro it's the point they are trying it. Why else did all these monster sets get butchered?

You clearly don't do hard content on a tank btw if you think you have time to get 1-2 heavy attacks off pretty often lol.

Stop talking you have no clue what you are talking about.

IT ISNT THAT THE NEW MYTHIC ITEMS GOOD FOR TANKS, ITS THE FACT THAT ZOS NERFED MONSTER SETS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE COMING OUT.

It is too convientent that this change happens. Especially with sets that were not performing well. But hey those dps over performing pve sets got buffed or stayed the same!

Nagastani

Calypso589 wrote: »

@BalticBlues These people probably only play with CP810-friends/guildies where they can rely on synergies, not CPxxx pugs.

Not really.

Lemme be clear, it's a mistake to place all of your reliance on synergies OR a monster set to be able to sustain yourself.

CP has nothing to do with synergy consistency. I'm not magically receiving more synergies from an 810 then I would a 450.

No, sometimes in vDLC and Trials, you need to keep a block, at least in HM.
Sometimes you only may have time to pick up a synergy, not a full heavy attack.

There's time for either/or. You, the player, just need to learn to identify when those times are because they are there. There is no boss in this game that is attacking you 100% of the time.

btw: You seem to have a very high opinion about yourself.

For me as just a good player, the consequence of the tank-set-nerfs will be that I have to stop pugging newer vDLC.

It's veteran. It's supposed to be hard. A single monster set should not be the thing that makes or breaks your ability to perform at that level.

If it is, then you're managing your resources poorly.

Stonkeeper getting nerfed is just going to shine a brighter light on that fact.

I read thru your posts and I'm not going to say that you are completely wrong about everything. But maybe look at this from another angle, at least in regards to Tanking.

There is the way things *should* work, yes. However, in pug groups especially it rarely happens. I've run 4 man as DPS Tank for years now and each run Normal/Vet I expect to carry. So when I get into a conversation with a buddy of mine who runs a professional Trial Guild or when just simply talking in Zone/Guild chat, people of that caliber think I'm crazy for my style of Tanking + DPS and the builds I use. Yet, I have to make up for everyone else not performing their role properly.

So, very rarely when I queue for a group do I get a proper group. Therefore, no I cannot be a proper, Traditional Tank, resource manage properly or get healed properly for most of the time because that kind of Tank is only as good as the group itself. Therefore if you run a pug group whose maybe new to the game, unprepared, no experience, no food/drink even (lol), whichever, then that type of group does not need a Traditional Tank they need something improvised. And that's why we care so much about the bizarre changes to the monster sets, as these are easy 2 pc sets that help make improvised builds possible and helpful for everyone. Not to mention the critical importance of weaving synergy between all components of an improvised build, then tieing that into your actions also. Sets, skills, abilities, you have to leverage everything.

That's why the loss of Elf Bane + Zaan is so bad because since I've had to move off it, it's become harder to carry 4 man group and make up for weak, inexperienced or possibly just incompetent DPS. And if it reaches the point where my Tank can't generate enough DPS then runs will take longer than necessary or may not even be doable at all. It's these same ppl that I carry who ultimately, will lose out as by now I have everything I need, for the most part. There's a real world out there and my life also so I just don't have time to train or explain fundamental, semi-obvious things to every player and then get them to go get the proper setup and set to use for every run. That's just not reasonable. Technically carrying them isn't helping them either yet getting the run over in a reasonable, timely manner, enabling me to get what I need too, is more important to me than fixing someone else's problem(s).

And then you take what I said above, understanding how a large portion of the player base is and then imagine a much more difficult situation where the Tank can literally do nothing but block and try to survive, especially if you have a deadbeat healer. You're screwed. Especially if the DPS has no idea what they're doing, it's all over.

Calypso589

@Kidgangster101 Bro it's the point they are trying it. Why else did all these monster sets get butchered?

For any numerous reasons that I personally won't claim to understand because i'm not the the one with the data in front of me.

But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at monster sets, then look at mythic items, and determine without a shadow of a doubt that the inclusion of one sure as hell isn't going to change how the other is used.

You clearly don't do hard content on a tank btw if you think you have time to get 1-2 heavy attacks off pretty often lol.

Or perhaps I tank hard content incredibly often and that's why i'm so confident about what I say. Ever think of that?

Name a fight and i'll tell you where you can heavy attack during it, Mr. Gangster. Let's see if we can't find you that 3 second window that apparently eludes you, so.

IT ISNT THAT THE NEW MYTHIC ITEMS GOOD FOR TANKS, ITS THE FACT THAT ZOS NERFED MONSTER SETS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE COMING OUT.

The conspiracy is falling apart if this is the reasoning you're being reduced to.

Calypso589

Nagastani wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

@BalticBlues These people probably only play with CP810-friends/guildies where they can rely on synergies, not CPxxx pugs.

Not really.

Lemme be clear, it's a mistake to place all of your reliance on synergies OR a monster set to be able to sustain yourself.

CP has nothing to do with synergy consistency. I'm not magically receiving more synergies from an 810 then I would a 450.

No, sometimes in vDLC and Trials, you need to keep a block, at least in HM.
Sometimes you only may have time to pick up a synergy, not a full heavy attack.

There's time for either/or. You, the player, just need to learn to identify when those times are because they are there. There is no boss in this game that is attacking you 100% of the time.

btw: You seem to have a very high opinion about yourself.

For me as just a good player, the consequence of the tank-set-nerfs will be that I have to stop pugging newer vDLC.

It's veteran. It's supposed to be hard. A single monster set should not be the thing that makes or breaks your ability to perform at that level.

If it is, then you're managing your resources poorly.

Stonkeeper getting nerfed is just going to shine a brighter light on that fact.

I read thru your posts and I'm not going to say that you are completely wrong about everything. But maybe look at this from another angle, at least in regards to Tanking.

There is the way things *should* work, yes. However, in pug groups especially it rarely happens. I've run 4 man as DPS Tank for years now and each run Normal/Vet I expect to carry. So when I get into a conversation with a buddy of mine who runs a professional Trial Guild or when just simply talking in Zone/Guild chat, people of that caliber think I'm crazy for my style of Tanking + DPS and the builds I use. Yet, I have to make up for everyone else not performing their role properly.

So, very rarely when I queue for a group do I get a proper group. Therefore, no I cannot be a proper, Traditional Tank, resource manage properly or get healed properly for most of the time because that kind of Tank is only as good as the group itself. Therefore if you run a pug group whose maybe new to the game, unprepared, no experience, no food/drink even (lol), whichever, then that type of group does not need a Traditional Tank they need something improvised. And that's why we care so much about the bizarre changes to the monster sets, as these are easy 2 pc sets that help make improvised builds possible and helpful for everyone. Not to mention the critical importance of weaving synergy between all components of an improvised build, then tieing that into your actions also. Sets, skills, abilities, you have to leverage everything.

That's why the loss of Elf Bane + Zaan is so bad because since I've had to move off it, it's become harder to carry 4 man group and make up for weak, inexperienced or possibly just incompetent DPS. And if it reaches the point where my Tank can't generate enough DPS then runs will take longer than necessary or may not even be doable at all. It's these same ppl that I carry who ultimately, will lose out as by now I have everything I need, for the most part. There's a real world out there and my life also so I just don't have time to train or explain fundamental, semi-obvious things to every player and then get them to go get the proper setup and set to use for every run. That's just not reasonable. Technically carrying them isn't helping them either yet getting the run over in a reasonable, timely manner, enabling me to get what I need too, is more important to me than fixing someone else's problem(s).

And then you take what I said above, understanding how a large portion of the player base is and then imagine a much more difficult situation where the Tank can literally do nothing but block and try to survive, especially if you have a deadbeat healer. You're screwed. Especially if the DPS has no idea what they're doing, it's all over.

None of the changes here are so bad that you can't improvise a setup like you're describing.

But nerfed sets aren't even the problem here.

Not segregating base game dungeons from DLC dungeons is the problem.

When I level a new toon I stop using the dungeon finder at level 45 because that's when the DLC dungeons are introduced into the mix.

That's a huge nope from me. Full stop.

It's a terrible terrible terrible idea to PUG vet scalecaller, Depths of maltar, Bloodroot forge, etc.....absolutely awful idea.

So my advice to people struggling with PUGs is to actually participate in the MM part of MMO.

Join. A. Guild. There's literally no excuse not to. There's one out there for everyone.

Nagastani

Calypso589 wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

@BalticBlues These people probably only play with CP810-friends/guildies where they can rely on synergies, not CPxxx pugs.

Not really.

Lemme be clear, it's a mistake to place all of your reliance on synergies OR a monster set to be able to sustain yourself.

CP has nothing to do with synergy consistency. I'm not magically receiving more synergies from an 810 then I would a 450.

No, sometimes in vDLC and Trials, you need to keep a block, at least in HM.
Sometimes you only may have time to pick up a synergy, not a full heavy attack.

There's time for either/or. You, the player, just need to learn to identify when those times are because they are there. There is no boss in this game that is attacking you 100% of the time.

btw: You seem to have a very high opinion about yourself.

For me as just a good player, the consequence of the tank-set-nerfs will be that I have to stop pugging newer vDLC.

It's veteran. It's supposed to be hard. A single monster set should not be the thing that makes or breaks your ability to perform at that level.

If it is, then you're managing your resources poorly.

Stonkeeper getting nerfed is just going to shine a brighter light on that fact.

I read thru your posts and I'm not going to say that you are completely wrong about everything. But maybe look at this from another angle, at least in regards to Tanking.

There is the way things *should* work, yes. However, in pug groups especially it rarely happens. I've run 4 man as DPS Tank for years now and each run Normal/Vet I expect to carry. So when I get into a conversation with a buddy of mine who runs a professional Trial Guild or when just simply talking in Zone/Guild chat, people of that caliber think I'm crazy for my style of Tanking + DPS and the builds I use. Yet, I have to make up for everyone else not performing their role properly.

So, very rarely when I queue for a group do I get a proper group. Therefore, no I cannot be a proper, Traditional Tank, resource manage properly or get healed properly for most of the time because that kind of Tank is only as good as the group itself. Therefore if you run a pug group whose maybe new to the game, unprepared, no experience, no food/drink even (lol), whichever, then that type of group does not need a Traditional Tank they need something improvised. And that's why we care so much about the bizarre changes to the monster sets, as these are easy 2 pc sets that help make improvised builds possible and helpful for everyone. Not to mention the critical importance of weaving synergy between all components of an improvised build, then tieing that into your actions also. Sets, skills, abilities, you have to leverage everything.

That's why the loss of Elf Bane + Zaan is so bad because since I've had to move off it, it's become harder to carry 4 man group and make up for weak, inexperienced or possibly just incompetent DPS. And if it reaches the point where my Tank can't generate enough DPS then runs will take longer than necessary or may not even be doable at all. It's these same ppl that I carry who ultimately, will lose out as by now I have everything I need, for the most part. There's a real world out there and my life also so I just don't have time to train or explain fundamental, semi-obvious things to every player and then get them to go get the proper setup and set to use for every run. That's just not reasonable. Technically carrying them isn't helping them either yet getting the run over in a reasonable, timely manner, enabling me to get what I need too, is more important to me than fixing someone else's problem(s).

And then you take what I said above, understanding how a large portion of the player base is and then imagine a much more difficult situation where the Tank can literally do nothing but block and try to survive, especially if you have a deadbeat healer. You're screwed. Especially if the DPS has no idea what they're doing, it's all over.

None of the changes here are so bad that you can't improvise a setup like you're describing.

But nerfed sets aren't even the problem here.

Not segregating base game dungeons from DLC dungeons is the problem.

When I level a new toon I stop using the dungeon finder at level 45 because that's when the DLC dungeons are introduced into the mix.

That's a huge nope from me. Full stop.

It's a terrible terrible terrible idea to PUG vet scalecaller, Depths of maltar, Bloodroot forge, etc.....absolutely awful idea.

So my advice to people struggling with PUGs is to actually participate in the MM part of MMO.

Join. A. Guild. There's literally no excuse not to. There's one out there for everyone.

Ok yeah, if you're doing Trials then it's hard to argue for not joining a Guild. I'm fine with that.

But not 4 man. I am in two good Guilds and thinking of joining a third however there's no need to join a Guild for 4 man runs. Hell, the Guild I'm in now, nice Trade Guild, even when I offer to setup a group they for the most part just don't care about doing Raids unless it's Trials night.

That's why I agree with the others on here that it's a terrrible idea to nerf the monster sets because if I waited on a Guild to come together and support my effort I would still be waiting and utterly disappointed. Sometimes if you want something done you have to get it done.

Also, I don't really mind the pugs per say. I would just like to be able to help them as pug group and those I discussed in my previous post have all helped me succeed over the years.

To sum up the argument some of us want to continue to enjoy a certain level of autonomy without having to get approval from some guild or without having to be forced into doing everything the traditional way.

When it's applicable, both of those methods are just fine however for alot of us who are not well connected it's better if we are left to our own devices which in turns also helps other players who are new or not established yet succeed as well.

Calypso589

@Nagastani In certain veteran content (not necessarily hm) there are situations where a Tank cannot leave a blocked state.

If you're not being heavy attacked (Dissident Blow from Symphony of Blades for ex.) then you actually don't need to have block up indefinitely.

I liked using Engine Guardian and that was a problem with using that because while blocking I'm not able to use many abilities so I have to look for other things to help with this instead.

Serious question: Do you know about block-casting? There are numerous self sustain abilities that are available to every class of tank that can be cast without actually dropping block. You just cast them while your finger is held down on block.

Nagastani

Calypso589 wrote: »

@Nagastani In certain veteran content (not necessarily hm) there are situations where a Tank cannot leave a blocked state.

If you're not being heavy attacked (Dissident Blow from Symphony of Blades for ex.) then you actually don't need to have block up indefinitely.

I liked using Engine Guardian and that was a problem with using that because while blocking I'm not able to use many abilities so I have to look for other things to help with this instead.

Serious question: Do you know about block-casting? There are numerous self sustain abilities that are available to every class of tank that can be cast without actually dropping block. You just cast them while your finger is held down on block.

Yes I run a DK Tank and sometimes a Necro Tank. Def DK though and have run with him for years.

I hear what you're saying and I am familiar with the techniques but that's not the issue.

Eventually my DK will run out of resources to heal with and in dire situations when I cannot drop a shield I'm dead unless the group is prepared in advance to deal with the run.

This is why I'm not arguing about what you said about how it's a bad idea to pug things like Scalecaller, however at the same time, in saying that it brings up another issue where not too long ago I could generally pug Scalecaller without any real problems. Sometimes the first boss would give us grief but after that it was all downhill from there.

These days no. It's a different world out there. But to answer your question, as a tank I can only block incoming damage or block-cast for so long until I run out of resources, depending on how much assistance I get from the healer and how long DPS takes to do their job. *snicker* *snicker*

No sarcasm in that last sentence, none at all.

Stx

It could be a coincidence that in the same patch they add mythic items and update arena weapons (and make us re-grind them) they nerf tons of useful monster sets...


Then again its probably not a coincidence. ZoS hasn't earned the benefit of any doubt.

Olupajmibanan

Stx wrote: »

It could be a coincidence that in the same patch they add mythic items and update arena weapons (and make us re-grind them) they nerf tons of useful monster sets...


Then again its probably not a coincidence. ZoS hasn't earned the benefit of any doubt.

I would believe that if they fixed instance desyncs (spinning enemies, instakills due to badly registered player position, unusable ground based synergies including trial ones ...). A looot of players I know didn't bought Greymoor yet and are waiting if desyncs are resolved. No matter how appealing Mythic items look like relatively to Monster sets, if desyncs are still a thing, Mythic items are definitely not going to be enough of an incentive to buy Greymoor.

Shantu

It's what happens when you run out of good ideas but need to come up with something to make it look like you're doing your job.

Life is short. Embrace the idiocy or move on...because nobody is listening to "Why?" questions.

LuxiasCaelum13

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

You have to buy warden class with crowns. So that is two classes with access to it behind a pay wall.

I’m sorry that you’re in a position where paying a 1 time fee of 15 dollars for content you’re not inherently entitled to is too much for you. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I was under the impression that everyone was satisfied with getting both the warden AND necro when they bought Elsweyr or that they were satisfied with buying just the class if the chapter itself wasn’t to their liking.

But I guess it’s a really big issue that you’re bringing up.

A major issue indeed. 👍🏻

A lot sets that are used in PvP come from DLC you have to pay for as well. Are you complaining about those too?

How far down the rabbit hole does the “I hate paying for goods” argument go? 🤔🤔

Dont be dense. Respect his arguments instead of straw manning them. Here I'll give you an example of the kind of BS zos pulls.
They removed minor toughness from war horn to make warden the only source of it. Why do you think they did that? Was that also too broken in pvp? Or maybe just MAYBE they did it to make warden look more appealing to boost sales..
No one is complaining about new classes having access to unique and exclusive things. The crappy part is when they removed things from other classes, skills and set to turn around and re-sell it to us through dlc content.

The crappy part is the fact that ZoS has developed a nasty habit of nerfing vanilla things to make DLC content more appealing, but not only with items, but with, like you pointed out, classes too. They basically slaughtered most of the NB kit to give it to wardens. Because major fracture on a spammable is too strong...except for wardens. Because major expedition is redundant in NB's kit, but wardens sure deserve that, who cares about class archetypes anyway. Passive minor berserk on focus was clearly overpowered, but the flappy wings are ok with that. And not only NB, but other classes too. Remember how DKS were the only ones with projectile inmunity due their wings? Now they not only lost the projectile reflection, but their projectile mitigation is crap compared to warden's shield. Seriously? Dragon wings only have a crappy 50% projectile dmg mitigation and a spinning ice slab negates all projectile damage? Major defile on incap was op, but blastbones has a pass. And with items the list is endless, the first example that comes to my mind is the comparison between viper and venomous smite, which is basically a better version of Viper.

The thing about mythics is not the effects per sé, but how character building will work from now on. Now the most common builds use a 2/5/5 setup, and from there we can find variarions like 2/5/3/arena weapon and etc. The thing is, now with mythics the way building works changes, because if you want to run a mythic in your build you have to give up either a 5 piece set or a monster set. If i wanna run a mythic without monter set i have to use 5/6/mythic, if i want to use a monster set i have to use 2/5/mythic/4 or 2/5/mythic/3. The thing is, i will always lose something. If i use the first setup i'll be optimized to use that mythic, if i use the second setup i'll loose the 5th piece bonus, rendering one of my sets to a mere stat booster, and if i choose to use a 3 piece setup to not leave holes on my build i'll end up with a mediocre effect, since not a single 3 piece set is as powerful as a 5 piece set, with the only notable exception of Potentates.

So yes, the thing isn't about comparing monster sets and mythics based on the effects, obviously, there is no way to compare any monster set with any mythic item, but that's a very narrow-minded vision of the things. The point is, if most monster sets are rendered useless people will stop building around them and will switch the focus to mythics, and the logical consequence will be to make the DLCs look better.

YandereGirlfriend

Justice for Grunwulf!

Iron_Blurr

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

You have to buy warden class with crowns. So that is two classes with access to it behind a pay wall.

I’m sorry that you’re in a position where paying a 1 time fee of 15 dollars for content you’re not inherently entitled to is too much for you. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I was under the impression that everyone was satisfied with getting both the warden AND necro when they bought Elsweyr or that they were satisfied with buying just the class if the chapter itself wasn’t to their liking.

But I guess it’s a really big issue that you’re bringing up.

A major issue indeed. 👍🏻

A lot sets that are used in PvP come from DLC you have to pay for as well. Are you complaining about those too?

How far down the rabbit hole does the “I hate paying for goods” argument go? 🤔🤔

Dont be dense. Respect his arguments instead of straw manning them. Here I'll give you an example of the kind of BS zos pulls.
They removed minor toughness from war horn to make warden the only source of it. Why do you think they did that? Was that also too broken in pvp? Or maybe just MAYBE they did it to make warden look more appealing to boost sales..
No one is complaining about new classes having access to unique and exclusive things. The crappy part is when they removed things from other classes, skills and set to turn around and re-sell it to us through dlc content.

The crappy part is the fact that ZoS has developed a nasty habit of nerfing vanilla thing to make DLC content more appealing, but not only with items, but with, like you pointed out, classes too. They basically slaughtered most of the NB kit to give it to wardens. Because major fracture on a spammable is too strong...except for wardens. Because major expedition is redundant in NB's kit, but wardens sure deserve that, who cares about class archetypes anyway. Passive minor berserk on focus was clearly overpowered, but the flappy wings are ok with that. And not only NB, but other classes too. Remember how DKS were the only ones with projectile inmunity due their wings? Now they not only lost the projectile reflection, but their projectile mitigation is crap compared to warden's shield. Seriously? Dragon wings only have a crappy 50% projectile dmg mitigation and a spinning ice slab negates all projectile damage? Major defile on incap was op, but blastbones has a pass. And with items the list is endless, the first example that comes to my mind is the comparison between viper and venomous smite, which is basically a better version of Viper.

The thing about mythics is not the effects per sé, but how character building will work from now on. Now the most common builds use a 2/5/5 setup, and from there we can find variarions like 2/5/3/arena weapon and etc. The thing is, now with mythics the way building works changes, because if you want to run a mythic in your build you have to give up either a 5 piece set or a monster set. If i wanna run a mythic without monter set i have to use 5/6/mythic, if i want to use a monster set i have to use 2/5/mythic/4 or 2/5/mythic/3. The thing is, i will always lose something. If i use the first setup i'll be optimized to use that mythic, if i use the second setup i'll loose the 5th piece bonus, rendering one of my sets to a mere stat booster, and if i choose to use a 3 piece setup to not leave holes on my build i'll end up with a mediocre effect, since not a single 3 piece set is as powerful as a 5 piece set, with the only notable exception of Potentates.

So yes, the thing isn't about comparing monster sets and mythics based on the effects, obviously, there is no way to compare any monster set with any mythic item, but that's a very narrow-minded vision of the things. The point is, if monst monster sets are rendered useless people will stop building around them and will switch the focus to mythics, and the logical consequence will be to make the DLCs look better.

I pretty much agree with everything you said except nb still has expedition on path but it cant be cast while sneaking so the functionality is totally different and as far as that goes i agree with you as well.

The thing is zos can easily develop new and exciting things pretty easily but i dont think their development team has the creativity to do something like that.
Here are some suggestions.. We have minor mag steal and minor health steal but why dont we have minor stamina steal? Put that on a class. How about a class that provides minor force to the raid team like wardens provide toughness? Before they nerfed engulfing flames into the ground i thought they should leave it where it was but maybe make the other morph of ele drain provide the same fire damage debuff effect as engulfing. Then when they eventually get around to making a new arena with weapon skill line ability altering effects, we could get a destro staff that has the effect of making targets marked with this new morph of elemental succeptability take more damage from any elemental damage. Kind of like an engulfing flames but for lighting and ice damage as well. It would fit pretty well with the theme of the target taking extra elemental damage..

More ideas could be perfected weapons for every trial set.. Perfect moondancer etc would be cool.

Maybe make a set like jorvulds guidance but for debuffs instead of buffs. A set that makes major and minor debuffs last 40% longer on the target or something..

Or here are some more ideas for example why not make an undaunted ultimate. Make it provide something like major vulnerability or some new major buff like major toughness or the samina/mag equivalents.

More ideas could be a complete rework to the soul magic skill line. Make the passives relevant. Make one morph of soul assault a weaker but cheaper cost and make the other stronger but longer. Make new skills to fill up the soul magic skill line.

I could go on and on with things the devs could be doing to ADD to the game. Any of these ideas could be used to incentivize players to buy the new dlc. But players perception would be much better because people would WANT to buy the new content because there are so many cool and unique things that come with it. Instead they nerf 99% of builds in the game and ask you to pay for it. And the whole pts cycle basically consists of them ignoring all feedback and proceeding with whatever changes they wanted to make anyways. It's like why bother having a pts at all then if they wont take feedback..

Calypso589

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

You have to buy warden class with crowns. So that is two classes with access to it behind a pay wall.

I’m sorry that you’re in a position where paying a 1 time fee of 15 dollars for content you’re not inherently entitled to is too much for you. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I was under the impression that everyone was satisfied with getting both the warden AND necro when they bought Elsweyr or that they were satisfied with buying just the class if the chapter itself wasn’t to their liking.

But I guess it’s a really big issue that you’re bringing up.

A major issue indeed. 👍🏻

A lot sets that are used in PvP come from DLC you have to pay for as well. Are you complaining about those too?

How far down the rabbit hole does the “I hate paying for goods” argument go? 🤔🤔

Dont be dense. Respect his arguments instead of straw manning them. Here I'll give you an example of the kind of BS zos pulls.
They removed minor toughness from war horn to make warden the only source of it. Why do you think they did that? Was that also too broken in pvp? Or maybe just MAYBE they did it to make warden look more appealing to boost sales..
No one is complaining about new classes having access to unique and exclusive things. The crappy part is when they removed things from other classes, skills and set to turn around and re-sell it to us through dlc content.

The crappy part is the fact that ZoS has developed a nasty habit of nerfing vanilla thing to make DLC content more appealing, but not only with items, but with, like you pointed out, classes too. They basically slaughtered most of the NB kit to give it to wardens. Because major fracture on a spammable is too strong...except for wardens. Because major expedition is redundant in NB's kit, but wardens sure deserve that, who cares about class archetypes anyway. Passive minor berserk on focus was clearly overpowered, but the flappy wings are ok with that. And not only NB, but other classes too. Remember how DKS were the only ones with projectile inmunity due their wings? Now they not only lost the projectile reflection, but their projectile mitigation is crap compared to warden's shield. Seriously? Dragon wings only have a crappy 50% projectile dmg mitigation and a spinning ice slab negates all projectile damage? Major defile on incap was op, but blastbones has a pass. And with items the list is endless, the first example that comes to my mind is the comparison between viper and venomous smite, which is basically a better version of Viper.

The thing about mythics is not the effects per sé, but how character building will work from now on. Now the most common builds use a 2/5/5 setup, and from there we can find variarions like 2/5/3/arena weapon and etc. The thing is, now with mythics the way building works changes, because if you want to run a mythic in your build you have to give up either a 5 piece set or a monster set. If i wanna run a mythic without monter set i have to use 5/6/mythic, if i want to use a monster set i have to use 2/5/mythic/4 or 2/5/mythic/3. The thing is, i will always lose something. If i use the first setup i'll be optimized to use that mythic, if i use the second setup i'll loose the 5th piece bonus, rendering one of my sets to a mere stat booster, and if i choose to use a 3 piece setup to not leave holes on my build i'll end up with a mediocre effect, since not a single 3 piece set is as powerful as a 5 piece set, with the only notable exception of Potentates.

So yes, the thing isn't about comparing monster sets and mythics based on the effects, obviously, there is no way to compare any monster set with any mythic item, but that's a very narrow-minded vision of the things. The point is, if monst monster sets are rendered useless people will stop building around them and will switch the focus to mythics, and the logical consequence will be to make the DLCs look better.

You're giving Mythics way, way too much credit.

Now they not only lost the projectile reflection, but their projectile mitigation is crap compared to warden's shield.

No it's not. Shimmering Shield may deflect more damage but it's not like you actually need it to. Protective Plate is more than powerful enough to deal with incoming projectile damage (mainly used in Cloudrest against Z'maja and orbs). And if a DK wants a sure thing, then they can just use Defensive Stance or Absorb missile. They'll totally absorb a single hit just like Shimmering Shield does.

But Protective Plate is better than Posture and it's morphs because it synergizes with Burning Heart. It's economically the better choice too cuz the alternative is stamina costly.

Point is, DK's method of projectile defense is just fine. It sure as hell isn't "crappy."

I can't really speak to your other examples but I think you're beginning to rant and overlook things.

Calypso589

@Iron_Blurr Instead they nerf 99% of builds in the game and ask you to pay for it.

False. If that were the case then every magicka class wouldn't still be using False God/Mother Sorrow.

Come Greymoor.......they still will be.

And the whole pts cycle basically consists of them ignoring all feedback and proceeding with whatever changes they wanted to make anyways.

Agreed.

Mainly because the Kyne's Aegist sets are trash and they haven't so much as acknowledged community feedback about that.

shrekt4303

Defensive sets too strong in pvp and to sell mythic items. Too bad monster sets will still prob be run over mythics in pvp.

Iron_Blurr

Calypso589 wrote: »

@Iron_Blurr Instead they nerf 99% of builds in the game and ask you to pay for it.

False. If that were the case then every magicka class wouldn't still be using False God/Mother Sorrow.

Come Greymoor.......they still will be.

And the whole pts cycle basically consists of them ignoring all feedback and proceeding with whatever changes they wanted to make anyways.

Agreed.

Mainly because the Kyne's Aegist sets are trash and they haven't so much as acknowledged community feedback about that.

Actually you're wrong about them nerfing players builds. They removed the stam and mag regen on vampires and make stage 1 vamp have a 3% cost increase to all non-vampire abilities. And since the vast majority of players were vampire for the passives BY DEFINITION they were nerfed.

Calypso589

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

@Iron_Blurr Instead they nerf 99% of builds in the game and ask you to pay for it.

False. If that were the case then every magicka class wouldn't still be using False God/Mother Sorrow.

Come Greymoor.......they still will be.

And the whole pts cycle basically consists of them ignoring all feedback and proceeding with whatever changes they wanted to make anyways.

Agreed.

Mainly because the Kyne's Aegist sets are trash and they haven't so much as acknowledged community feedback about that.

Actually you're wrong about them nerfing players builds. They removed the stam and mag regen on vampires and make stage 1 vamp have a 3% cost increase to all non-vampire abilities. And since the vast majority of players were vampire for the passives BY DEFINITION they were nerfed.

That's not a nerf builds to whatsoever. You could take or leave those passives. It doesn't change anything. They were always "nice" but hardly mandatory to make something work.

You're not even considering what's replaced those vampire passives. You're only whining about what's been taken away.

Consider that when Greymoor drops, Blood for Blood will become the new magicka melee spammable. Hands down. It costs health to use so the loss of that bit of magicka regen from the OG vampire passives doesn't really mean much. It never did but now it REALLY doesn't.

Even if you're healed while using it you're still hitting like a truck because there's zero cost to using it which means you're using it alot.

The 3% extra cost to abilities in order to use BfB means diddly squat too. Hollowfang is 3k magicka back on procc for the group, Worm Cult evens it out and False God's (which every magicka DPS is wearing) cancels out that 3% and then a further 5%.

So yeah that 3% cost to non vampire abilities? So what? Totally irrelevant. Especially if all three of the above sets are featured in the trial which, in a magicka composition, they would and should be.

Liko's already got some parses with it in the 70-90k ranges. It's especially good on Magdks running elfbane. Longer DoT's means more Blood for Blood spam.

So no, i'm not wrong. /shrug

Shoot, a lot of magicka builds just got better and that's for no other reason than because you won't need to light attack weave Ele Weapon anymore when in melee range.

Iron_Blurr

Calypso589 wrote: »

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

@Iron_Blurr Instead they nerf 99% of builds in the game and ask you to pay for it.

False. If that were the case then every magicka class wouldn't still be using False God/Mother Sorrow.

Come Greymoor.......they still will be.

And the whole pts cycle basically consists of them ignoring all feedback and proceeding with whatever changes they wanted to make anyways.

Agreed.

Mainly because the Kyne's Aegist sets are trash and they haven't so much as acknowledged community feedback about that.

Actually you're wrong about them nerfing players builds. They removed the stam and mag regen on vampires and make stage 1 vamp have a 3% cost increase to all non-vampire abilities. And since the vast majority of players were vampire for the passives BY DEFINITION they were nerfed.

That's not a nerf builds to whatsoever. You could take or leave those passives. It doesn't change anything. They were always "nice" but hardly mandatory to make something work.

You're not even considering what's replaced those vampire passives. You're only whining about what's been taken away.

Consider that when Greymoor drops, Blood for Blood will become the new magicka melee spammable. It costs health so whatever sustain you may have lost with the removal of the OG vampire passives......you're gaining back through Blood for Blood costing virtually nothing.

Even if you're healed while using it you're still hitting like a truck because there's zero cost to using it which means you're using it alot.

The 3% extra cost to abilities in order to use BfB means diddly squat too. That increase is made up for by Hollowfang and/or Worm Cult and then some.

Liko's already got some parses with it in the 70-90k ranges. It's especially good on Magdks running elfbane. Longer DoT's means more Blood for Blood spam.

So no, i'm not wrong. /shrug

...Right because passives are not in any way part of a build. I dont wana split hairs here but yes the vast majority of players builds were nerfed. They lost sustain bonuses and vampires got a cost increase. All your arguments about blood for blood being strong etc have nothing to do with the that fact.
Besides nothing you just said applies to stamina dps or tanks or healers. Vampire passives are relevant to more builds than just mag dps you know...

Calypso589

@Iron_Blurr Right because passives are not in any way part of a build. I dont wana split hairs here

Then why are you? O.0

vast majority of players builds were nerfed.

A loss of 10% resource regen is hardly a nerf. Something getting nerfed implies that the player will actually notice it. Again, being a vampire was not mandatory to make something work. Everything about those OG passives was "nice" but they did not make or break anything.

Anyone saying differently is being dishonest.

They lost sustain bonuses and vampires got a cost increase.

Again, if you read what I wrote, you'd see that that cost increase is completely negated by existing magicka builds. Only dedicated vampire builds are gonna take things to rank 4 (assuming those are even viable). Everyone else will hang out at stage 1 to make use of BfB and/or frenzy and be just fine.

All your arguments about blood for blood being strong etc have nothing to do with the that fact.

Blood for Blood doesn't cost magicka so concerning sustain, it means everything actually.

Besides nothing you just said applies to stamina dps or tanks

To repeat myself once again.........tanks never needed to be vampires. Nor did stamina DPS.
The passives were "nice" and there was no reason not to take them.

But now that they're gone, guess what's gonna happen?

Nothing.

Your build will literally be just as good.

or healers

Uh........what? Healers are the ones wearing Hollowfang or Wormcult. Healers should literally be buried in Magicka by default.

Iron_Blurr

Calypso589 wrote: »

@Iron_Blurr Right because passives are not in any way part of a build. I dont wana split hairs here

Then why are you? O.0

vast majority of players builds were nerfed.

A loss of 10% resource regen is hardly a nerf. Something getting nerfed implies that the player will actually notice it. Again, being a vampire was not mandatory to make something work. Everything about those OG passives was "nice" but they did not make or break anything.

Anyone saying differently is being dishonest.

They lost sustain bonuses and vampires got a cost increase.

Again, if you read what I wrote, you'd see that that cost increase is completely negated by existing magicka builds. Only dedicated vampire builds are gonna take things to rank 4 (assuming those are even viable). Everyone else will hang out at stage 1 to make use of BfB and/or frenzy and be just fine.

All your arguments about blood for blood being strong etc have nothing to do with the that fact.

Blood for Blood doesn't cost magicka so concerning sustain, it means everything actually.

Besides nothing you just said applies to stamina dps or tanks

To repeat myself once again.........tanks never needed to be vampires. Nor did stamina DPS.
The passives were "nice" and there was no reason not to take them.

But now that they're gone, guess what's gonna happen?

Nothing.

Your build will literally be just as good.

or healers

Uh........what? Healers are the ones wearing Hollowfang or Wormcult. Healers should literally be buried in Magicka by default.

Have you ever heard of the term "moving the goalpost"? It's really quite annoying..

Calypso589

@Iron_Blurr Have you ever heard of the term "moving the goalpost"? It's really quite annoying..

No goal posts are being moved and I know you know that.

But how about this.

Since i'm the only one explaining myself how about you take a turn and tell me why stamina losing a 10% stam regen passive is apparently such a huge "nerf" and worthy of all this whining.

Gonna go watch a stamden parse for 89k on the PTS while I wait for you to respond.

Iron_Blurr

Calypso589 wrote: »

@Iron_Blurr Have you ever heard of the term "moving the goalpost"? It's really quite annoying..

How about this.

Since i'm the only one explaining myself how about you take a turn and tell me why stamina losing a 10% stam regen passive is apparently such a huge "nerf."

Gonna go watch a stamden parse for 89k on the PTS while I wait for you to respond.

Did I ever say it was a "HUGE" nerf? I said it was a nerf because by definition it is. I never qualified the severity of it. Something doesn't have to be severe for it to exist.

Calypso589

@Iron_Blurr Did I ever say it was a "HUGE" nerf? I said it was a nerf because by definition it is. I never qualified the severity of it. Something doesn't have to be severe for it to exist.

Now THIS is what moving the goalposts looks like. lol By this logic any adjustment of stats or passives can be outright called nerfs and I'm guessing that's not logic you tend to regularly operate with, right?

I'm guessing this instance is just for lil ol' me.

But wait, doesn't a nerf to a build imply that the build is made weaker?

Like, the asylum adjustment straight up made the asylum build weaker.

THAT'S a nerf. No doubt.

But that loss of 10% stam regen doesn't really seem to be impacting the stam DPS community all that much.

So..........is it a nerf?

Tough call on that one, chief.

BalticBlues

Calypso589 wrote: »

A loss of 10% resource regen is hardly a nerf.

In competitive environments where people act on limits, -10% can mean win or lose.
No matter if you are a professional driver, a professional athlete or a professional gamer.
Your boss probably should suggest a -10% cut to your salary. Ok, right? Because it is "hardly a cut"...

Calypso589

BalticBlues wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

A loss of 10% resource regen is hardly a nerf.

In competitive environments where people act on limits, -10% can mean win or lose.
No matter if you are a professional driver, a professional athlete or a professional gamer.
Your boss probably should suggest a -10% cut to your salary. Ok, right? Because it is "hardly a cut"...

Am I supposed to take that real world comparison seriously?

Because the effect a 10% cut to anyone's salary in the real world would have on their livelihood is 1555% not at all the same as losing a few hundred regen in a video game.

You should feel extremely silly for making that comparison.

Silly billy.