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Why were monster sets nerfed?

  • ChimpyChumpy
    ChimpyChumpy
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    It's just like destiny 2. Gotta nerf stuff to make room for more grind for new stuff. Just like destiny 2 they are now making the grind extremely long for these mythic antiquities. I'll stick with coward's gear for farming (now watch this get nerfed).
  • Calypso589
    Calypso589
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    Iron_Blurr wrote: »
    Calypso589 wrote: »
    A loss of 10% resource regen is hardly a nerf.
    In competitive environments where people act on limits, -10% can mean win or lose.
    No matter if you are a professional driver, a professional athlete or a professional gamer.
    Your boss probably should suggest a -10% cut to your salary. Ok, right? Because it is "hardly a cut"...

    [Quoted post was removed]

    Who’s trolling? I’ve literally explained to you how & why everything’s fine.

    You have not once made a compelling case for why everyone should be up in arms about a loss of 10% stam regen.

    You’ve not provided anything except to say it *could* be bad in a competitive environment and that means nothing because anything could go wrong in a competitive environment. Not to mention there are folks whooping arse in PvP right now who aren’t vampires.

    So what? Those people don’t exist or something? Lol He’ll werewolves are the ones that are primed for PvP anyway.

    Make your case instead of hiding behind calling me a troll. Make an actual argument. If all your point boils down to is “loss of stam regen passive = nerf” then your point isn’t that strong.

    As demonstrated, loss of that passive isn’t exactly having a big effect.

    Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 25, 2020 5:19PM
  • Iron_Blurr
    Iron_Blurr
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    Calypso589 wrote: »
    Iron_Blurr wrote: »
    Calypso589 wrote: »
    A loss of 10% resource regen is hardly a nerf.
    In competitive environments where people act on limits, -10% can mean win or lose.
    No matter if you are a professional driver, a professional athlete or a professional gamer.
    Your boss probably should suggest a -10% cut to your salary. Ok, right? Because it is "hardly a cut"...

    [Quoted post was removed]

    Who’s trolling? I’ve literally explained to you how & why everything’s fine.

    You have not once made a compelling case for why everyone should be up in arms about a loss of 10% stam regen.

    You’ve not provided anything except to say it *could* be bad in a competitive environment and that means nothing because anything could go wrong in a competitive environment. Not to mention there are folks whooping arse in PvP right now who aren’t vampires.

    So what? Those people don’t exist or something? Lol He’ll werewolves are the ones that are primed for PvP anyway.

    Make your case instead of hiding behind calling me a troll. Make an actual argument. If all your point boils down to is “loss of stam regen passive = nerf” then your point isn’t that strong.

    As demonstrated, loss of that passive isn’t exactly having a big effect.

    Fine I'll give it one more shot and try to explain it to you.
    A nerf means that a change was made to make something weaker. It's like a permanent debuff. Losing 10% regen on stam and mag makes players weaker. It obviously does not make them stronger. It does not mean they stay the same because a change was made and they are losing something.
    I'll try and keep things relevant to the thread and use these as examples first..
    Let's use grundwulf as an example. The primary resource restore went from 1000 restore every 6 seconds to 700 every 6 seconds. That's called a NERF. 1000-700=300. 300/6=50. So we are saying grundwulf was nerfed because you are losing 50 primary resource restore per second. Are you going to argue that is also not a nerf?
    The resistance values on the 1 piece bonus for lord warden and mighty chudan were cut in half. Sure it's only 2-3% more damage you take due to lost resistances but it's still a nerf that was simply not needed.
    Next patch the battle spirit effect will reduce healing in pvp by 10%. Is that also not a REAL nerf to healing?
    What about the warden mushrooms heal Enchanted growth? That increases the mag and stam regen of targets hit by 10%. Is that also not a REAL buff in your universe where words dont have clear definitions?
    I think the error in your reasoning is that you measure the effectiveness of something based on the dps a build can do. But that is not the only metric by which the effectiveness of something is measured.

    The point is that having a Mild cold still means you are sick. Petty theft is still theft. A fender bender is still a car accident. Cheating on one test question still means you cheated.
    Words have definitions.
    Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 25, 2020 5:19PM
  • LuxiasCaelum13
    LuxiasCaelum13
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    Iron_Blurr wrote: »
    I pretty much agree with everything you said except nb still has expedition on path but it cant be cast while sneaking so the functionality is totally different and as far as that goes i agree with you as well.
    That was the idea, i was paraphrasing the reasoning ZoS gave for why they removed major expedition from NBs. Having major expedition in the NB equivalent of wall of elements is counterintuitive, and doesn't allow the user to really benefit from the effect aside for running from place to place and farming, it doesn't have real combat usage, neither for PvE or PvP. I should have explained myself better there.

    Edited by LuxiasCaelum13 on May 26, 2020 12:40PM
    Don't make me say the same thing twice. Don't make me say it a third time. I hate having to repeat myself because it's useless. ~Giorno Giovanna
  • LuxiasCaelum13
    LuxiasCaelum13
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    Calypso589 wrote: »
    Iron_Blurr wrote: »
    Calypso589 wrote: »
    You have to buy warden class with crowns. So that is two classes with access to it behind a pay wall.

    I’m sorry that you’re in a position where paying a 1 time fee of 15 dollars for content you’re not inherently entitled to is too much for you. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    I was under the impression that everyone was satisfied with getting both the warden AND necro when they bought Elsweyr or that they were satisfied with buying just the class if the chapter itself wasn’t to their liking.

    But I guess it’s a really big issue that you’re bringing up.

    A major issue indeed. 👍🏻

    A lot sets that are used in PvP come from DLC you have to pay for as well. Are you complaining about those too?

    How far down the rabbit hole does the “I hate paying for goods” argument go? 🤔🤔

    Dont be dense. Respect his arguments instead of straw manning them. Here I'll give you an example of the kind of BS zos pulls.
    They removed minor toughness from war horn to make warden the only source of it. Why do you think they did that? Was that also too broken in pvp? Or maybe just MAYBE they did it to make warden look more appealing to boost sales..
    No one is complaining about new classes having access to unique and exclusive things. The crappy part is when they removed things from other classes, skills and set to turn around and re-sell it to us through dlc content.

    The crappy part is the fact that ZoS has developed a nasty habit of nerfing vanilla thing to make DLC content more appealing, but not only with items, but with, like you pointed out, classes too. They basically slaughtered most of the NB kit to give it to wardens. Because major fracture on a spammable is too strong...except for wardens. Because major expedition is redundant in NB's kit, but wardens sure deserve that, who cares about class archetypes anyway. Passive minor berserk on focus was clearly overpowered, but the flappy wings are ok with that. And not only NB, but other classes too. Remember how DKS were the only ones with projectile inmunity due their wings? Now they not only lost the projectile reflection, but their projectile mitigation is crap compared to warden's shield. Seriously? Dragon wings only have a crappy 50% projectile dmg mitigation and a spinning ice slab negates all projectile damage? Major defile on incap was op, but blastbones has a pass. And with items the list is endless, the first example that comes to my mind is the comparison between viper and venomous smite, which is basically a better version of Viper.

    The thing about mythics is not the effects per sé, but how character building will work from now on. Now the most common builds use a 2/5/5 setup, and from there we can find variarions like 2/5/3/arena weapon and etc. The thing is, now with mythics the way building works changes, because if you want to run a mythic in your build you have to give up either a 5 piece set or a monster set. If i wanna run a mythic without monter set i have to use 5/6/mythic, if i want to use a monster set i have to use 2/5/mythic/4 or 2/5/mythic/3. The thing is, i will always lose something. If i use the first setup i'll be optimized to use that mythic, if i use the second setup i'll loose the 5th piece bonus, rendering one of my sets to a mere stat booster, and if i choose to use a 3 piece setup to not leave holes on my build i'll end up with a mediocre effect, since not a single 3 piece set is as powerful as a 5 piece set, with the only notable exception of Potentates.

    So yes, the thing isn't about comparing monster sets and mythics based on the effects, obviously, there is no way to compare any monster set with any mythic item, but that's a very narrow-minded vision of the things. The point is, if monst monster sets are rendered useless people will stop building around them and will switch the focus to mythics, and the logical consequence will be to make the DLCs look better.

    You're giving Mythics way, way too much credit.
    Now they not only lost the projectile reflection, but their projectile mitigation is crap compared to warden's shield.

    No it's not. Shimmering Shield may deflect more damage but it's not like you actually need it to. Protective Plate is more than powerful enough to deal with incoming projectile damage (mainly used in Cloudrest against Z'maja and orbs). And if a DK wants a sure thing, then they can just use Defensive Stance or Absorb missile. They'll totally absorb a single hit just like Shimmering Shield does.

    But Protective Plate is better than Posture and it's morphs because it synergizes with Burning Heart. It's economically the better choice too cuz the alternative is stamina costly.

    Point is, DK's method of projectile defense is just fine. It sure as hell isn't "crappy."

    I can't really speak to your other examples but I think you're beginning to rant and overlook things.



    First things first no, i'm not "giving too much credit to mythics", i'm seeing what everyone else is able to see too. Is blatantly obvious that mythics are meant to work like a replacement for monster sets, which is a good idea, but they screwed it when they unnecesarily nerfed several monster sets.

    Second, wings were nerfed because PvP, hands down, so your example doesn't make any sense. Maybe the one overlooking things here is you.
    I have played all trials and dungeons lots, and i mean lots of times, and rarely i have found somebody using DK wings, while, in comparison, shimmering shield is way more common, so maybe the fact of defensive posture being more prevalent than wings it's an indicative of how things really are.
    In the other hand you compare wings with defensive stance, which absolutely misses the point. You're not understanding anything, the point is: removing an effect DKs had only to give it to wardens to make the class more appealing is a cheap method, is lame, and it says a lot about the devs mentality. It's not about "muh, but you can still use X", the thing is, if they want to sell the DLC so badly then they should make original content and make new things instead of just moving things we had behind a paywall, which makes the "conspiracy" theory you are mocking so vehemently something more than a mere theory.

    And from a PvP perspective wings are crap, no discussion here. Wardens can absorb up to 3 projectiles, basically nullifyng their damage, while DKs can't. Their whole argument was "it enabled toxic playstile", well, it seems that the "toxic playstile" only applies to the class, not the mechanic.

    And no, i'm not ranting and overlooking things, the one ignoring everything said in this thread is you, and i think everyone here was water-clear about their points. There is no second interpretations when everyone is explaining things with pristine clarity. Giving examples is not ranting, is reasoning. However, putting words in other's mouths they didn't say does have a name: Straw manning.
    Edited by LuxiasCaelum13 on May 26, 2020 9:56AM
    Don't make me say the same thing twice. Don't make me say it a third time. I hate having to repeat myself because it's useless. ~Giorno Giovanna
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