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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/529446

Why were monster sets nerfed?

Iron_Blurr
Iron_Blurr
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There are quite a few monster sets that were changed for the better and I want to give credit where it is due for those. But some of these nerfs were just ridiculous. Why were these sets nerfed??

Ilambris: you nerfed the cool part of it. The whole concept is based around the twin procs which no longer can happen.

Infernal Guardian: I have no words. This set was bad and needed a buff not a nerf.

Mighty chudan: it gives a buff that every class in the game has easy access to and some mitigation and health. All this set did is save you a bar slot so you dont need to slot an armor buff. The tradeoff was you lose any damage/healing/resource potential another set would have given.

Grundwulf: Really? Was the 300 resource restore per 6 seconds absolutely necessary to nerf?

Bloodspawn: Again the unique aspect of the set was nerfed in favor of keeping a mediocre hybrid effect. In my opinion the ulti gen should be brought back to what it was and remove the armor buff part of it completely. There are plenty of armor buffing sets if that's what you're looking for. There was ONLY ONE ultimate generation set.

Earthgore: The point of this set was an on demand burst heal. There are plenty of options for healing over time already. Stop nerfing the unique elements of these sets and nerf the other parts of them to retain their identity. Make the proc every 35 or 45 seconds if you want. You can even take away the ground effect removal. But dont nerf the burst heal because we have plenty of healing over time sets already.

Thorvokun: Again the whole point of this set was the trade off of getting 100% uptime on minor maim and defile. If you need to do something to the set go ahead and completely remove the damage done or limit the aoe size in some way. But dont nerf the unique aspect of the set. The whole point of the set was that is saves you a bar slot.

Lord warden: Again i have no words.. Who was this set hurting?? It's a pve tank set for group support.

I'm so confused about some of these changes. Can we get some reasoning at least to explain why some of these already underperforming sets were nerfed?
Edited by Iron_Blurr on May 15, 2020 9:56PM
  • Calypso589
    Calypso589
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    Ilambris: you nerfed the cool part of it. The whole concept is based around the twin procs which no longer can happen.

    It’s actually stronger now because of that. Second to Zaan in fights where the target will suffer the full duration of the procc.
    Infernal Guardian: I have no words. This set was bad and needed a buff not a nerf.

    Agreed but to be fair, that would have to be an insane buff for this set to be used for anything other than fun in low stakes dungeons.
    Bloodspawn: Again the unique aspect of the set was nerfed in favor of keeping a mediocre hybrid effect. In my opinion the ulti gen should be brought back to what it was and remove the armor buff part of it completely. There are plenty of armor buffing sets if that's what you're looking for. There was ONLY ONE ultimate generation set.

    It’ll still be used for the same stuff. It was definitely overpowered though (specifically in PvP). It needed a slight tuning.
    Thorvokun: Again the whole point of this set was the trade off of getting 100% uptime on minor maim and defile. If you need to do something to the set go ahead and completely remove the damage done or limit the aoe size in some way. But dont nerf the unique aspect of the set. The whole point of the set was that is saves you a bar slot.

    It still does. Far as PvE goes, using this set for trash or particular boss fights has not changed. The nerf wasn’t anywhere severe enough that it’ll be tossed.



    Most of these are honestly relatively harmless adjustments that aren’t going to change things all that much (with the exception of Illambris actually doing better damage now).

  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    As per the PTS: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/522289/pts-patch-notes-v6-0-0
    "Monster Masks have been updated to be more comparable to 5 piece sets in regards to our set bonus efficiency standards. While most are value adjustments, a few sets have received larger adjustments to either bring them in line with intended fantasies or to improve their flexibility in use cases."

    YMMV on whether you agree with that.
  • ccfeeling
    ccfeeling
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    Lucky is right.
  • martijnlv40
    martijnlv40
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    Ilambris was specifically great for my build, although I could use Zaan I preffered Ilambris. Now I'm probably going to switch around, but it doesn't really matter anymore. Most monster sets do exactly the same now. The fun part and choosing a monster set specifically to your build is gone. Not that I'm not happy with the changes to Skoria, Nerien'eth and Domihaus, but still...
  • JanTanhide
    JanTanhide
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    Iron_Blurr wrote: »
    There are quite a few monster sets that were changed for the better and I want to give credit where it is due for those. But some of these nerfs were just ridiculous. Why were these sets nerfed??

    Ilambris: you nerfed the cool part of it. The whole concept is based around the twin procs which no longer can happen.

    Infernal Guardian: I have no words. This set was bad and needed a buff not a nerf.

    Mighty chudan: it gives a buff that every class in the game has easy access to and some mitigation and health. All this set did is save you a bar slot so you dont need to slot an armor buff. The tradeoff was you lose any damage/healing/resource potential another set would have given.

    Grundwulf: Really? Was the 300 resource restore per 6 seconds absolutely necessary to nerf?

    Bloodspawn: Again the unique aspect of the set was nerfed in favor of keeping a mediocre hybrid effect. In my opinion the ulti gen should be brought back to what it was and remove the armor buff part of it completely. There are plenty of armor buffing sets if that's what you're looking for. There was ONLY ONE ultimate generation set.

    Earthgore: The point of this set was an on demand burst heal. There are plenty of options for healing over time already. Stop nerfing the unique elements of these sets and nerf the other parts of them to retain their identity. Make the proc every 35 or 45 seconds if you want. You can even take away the ground effect removal. But dont nerf the burst heal because we have plenty of healing over time sets already.

    Thorvokun: Again the whole point of this set was the trade off of getting 100% uptime on minor maim and defile. If you need to do something to the set go ahead and completely remove the damage done or limit the aoe size in some way. But dont nerf the unique aspect of the set. The whole point of the set was that is saves you a bar slot.

    Lord warden: Again i have no words.. Who was this set hurting?? It's a pve tank set for group support.

    I'm so confused about some of these changes. Can we get some reasoning at least to explain why some of these already underperforming sets were nerfed?

    One word: PVP
  • Calypso589
    Calypso589
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    @Calypso589 , you're wrong about it

    No i'm not. Unless my eyes and ears are deceiving me concerning what my own guild is doing right along with the rest of the endgame community.

    Thurvokun wasn't even that strong in PvP, save for people who fail to move out of AoEs, and it was niche in PvE

    Thurvokun was VERY strong in PvP and it's not niche in trials, used most commonly during trash pulls. Post Greymoor, it will still be used in Trials for that reason. Also it takes ZERO skill to use Thurvokun. Any laymen player is going to see an AoE minor maim and deduce that it's going to work best in large trash pulls.

    Not exactly rocket science. lol
    Vykosa was strong, but had very short duration and tank had to know precisely where and when to use it - that's skill. Now it's replaced by a 5pc set, and it wouldn't be a tragedy on its own, but with the new set, you can't precisely control when it procs.

    Noone but new tanks-in-training is using Bani's Torment. Vykosa is still extremely popular because while it's not as strong as it was before, it also isn't a slouch and will do what you need it to do.

    Because of that, it's STILL better than Bani.

    Even if Vykosa had been utterly ruined I still wouldn't run Bani, tbh.

    It's an entire 5 piece set for a Major Protection buff that you don't need most of the time.
    Consistent and controlled performance in good hands is being replaced by randomness

    No replacements happening. Thurvokun will still be used and Vykosa is still used as well, like I said.

    I chose not to address the rest of your response to me because it continues with the notion that Thurvokun and Vykosa or the other monster sets are going away.

    They're not.

    They've been adjusted, but by and large how and why they're used has not changed and in some ways (like Illambris) they now actually perform much better.

  • Calypso589
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    lucky_Sage wrote: »
    To get people to farm the mythic item
    ccfeeling wrote: »
    Lucky is right.

    Lucky is wrong. lol

    Extremely wrong.

  • Calypso589
    Calypso589
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    @Calypso589 , so nerf isn't in place yet, but you're already speaking about looking at your guild and judging how it'll be used or not used after Greymoor. Cool story

    Because myself and other guilds are testing things and running it in the PTS?

    Hello?
    And you didn't even read what I wrote because about Bani, you basically repeated what I wrote in different words. And 'no replacement happening' is not backed by anything. Your 'they're not' is not an argument, it's your groundless opinion, and I'm not even responding to it because you gave nothing to discuss except your beliefs.

    I mean, this whole thread has been nothing but YOUR beliefs, right?

    But only one of us has been going into the PTS to see how things are actually working, it seems.

    But as far as Bani goes, it's out now.

    I invite you to check ESO logs and you can tell me how often it comes up.

    Spoiler: It won't.

    Edited by Calypso589 on May 16, 2020 4:11PM
  • Calypso589
    Calypso589
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    @Calypso589 , doesn't tell me about anything. "I'm the end game community", "butt ton of people" - if that's everything your testing resulted in, then sorry but I'll disregard your opinion

    Will you disregard statistics? lol

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    Monster sets that are run will ultimately be determined by your group's composition as well as the class of tank. Nahviintaas HM is one such fight out of the very few where Vykosa was strongly considered pre-adjustment.

    As you can see, it still is post adjustment.

    Here's what YOU said (bold is mine).

    Vykosa was strong, but had very short duration and tank had to know precisely where and when to use it - that's skill. Now it's replaced by a 5pc set,

    No it wasn't.
    So I'll just point you upwards and say that it's precisely what I said, that nobody runs Bani, but not because it's weak but because you can't proc it when you need the proc

    First you said Bani replaced Vykosa and then you also said noone runs Bani.

    You sound a bit confused, friendo.

    Here's the truth of it: People don't run it because even if you could procc it exactly when you wanted, wearing it means sacrificing so many other sets that are objectively better and they would be sacrificed for a single buff that you don't even need throughout the entire fight.

    Combine that with the fact that Vykosa still performs well as a two piece, and you have your reason why Bani will NEVER be run in any capacity.

    As for Thurvokun, I guess you're just going to have watch and wait for it to go live before you can check the logs and see for yourself but basic math will tell you that the decrease in it's duration isn't anywhere severe enough to justify trashing it from PvE.

    Or from PvP for that matter.
    Edited by Calypso589 on May 16, 2020 4:31PM
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    @Calypso589 , apologies from me too.

    As for the latter: it's the nature of the buff that matters. Look at where Vykosa was (and still is despite it being much much worse is used). St. Olms. Dragons during breath. In other words, to mitigate damage precisely when it needs to be mitigated; I know of hardly any case when you'd use Vykosa off cooldown. Yes, Major Maim is not a good debuff to waste 5pc set on it, but I absolutely could see Bani used by prog groups if they're struggling precisely at those places... except they can't, because you can't control Bani. You're choosing Vykosa not because it's still good, but because there's nothing better, and maybe Bani would've been stronger for this precise purpose... except you can't use it where you used Vykosa before - you can't proc it during breath or storm. Prog groups aren't picking stronger debuff than Vykosa not because they'd waste five-piece, but because you simply can't use it - the use cases for Vykosa are very specific and Bani just can't work there.
  • satanio
    satanio
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    @Calypso589 , apologies from me too.

    As for the latter: it's the nature of the buff that matters. Look at where Vykosa was (and still is despite it being much much worse is used). St. Olms. Dragons during breath. In other words, to mitigate damage precisely when it needs to be mitigated; I know of hardly any case when you'd use Vykosa off cooldown. Yes, Major Maim is not a good debuff to waste 5pc set on it, but I absolutely could see Bani used by prog groups if they're struggling precisely at those places... except they can't, because you can't control Bani. You're choosing Vykosa not because it's still good, but because there's nothing better, and maybe Bani would've been stronger for this precise purpose... except you can't use it where you used Vykosa before - you can't proc it during breath or storm. Prog groups aren't picking stronger debuff than Vykosa not because they'd waste five-piece, but because you simply can't use it - the use cases for Vykosa are very specific and Bani just can't work there.

    You can control bani - having it only on back bar & procing it from the back bar. However, it's a laser beam of same kind as Zaan is, and we know how those work. Basically useless in Sunspire :D.

    Back to the topic:
    Nerfs are sad. But if the uproar is strong enough, and well justified, they seem to accept player feedback. It was the case of Vykosa or Iceheart. However, those where different times, when only some nerfs where happening and playerbase could concentrate on them. I think it is settled for now with reasoning being the standardization :(.
    Current public stam parses on Iron Atro so far (esologs - Harrowstorm)
    DW&Bow
    2H&Bow
    Bow&Bow
    ESOLEAKS CASUALTIES:
    Checkmath
    Tasear
    RIP
  • Calypso589
    Calypso589
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    You're choosing Vykosa not because it's still good, but because there's nothing better

    Vykosa is still good. There doesn't need to be something better for it to be dropped. If it was bad after its nerf, it would've been dropped already. Period.

    But it hasn't been and that's because it still does what it needs to do.

    Think about it. Vykosa certainly isn't mandatory for clearing the content it's popular in. It's popular in Nahviintaas HM because it's easier to guard the MT who uses it and forego the switch after the Shattered debuff.

    If Vykosa was so bad after its nerf, then that strategy just wouldn't be used anymore.

    So yeah, it does what it needs to do in the situations you need it to do it in. It's not as strong as Major Maim, but it also doesn't need to be.

    20% reduction in weapon and spell damage isn't something to scoff at.
    Prog groups aren't picking stronger debuff than Vykosa not because they'd waste five-piece

    Oh no no, that's exactly why it isn't being used. Like I said, Bani's procc could be in complete control of the player and it still won't be worth sacrificing Ebon, Alkosh, post-Greymoor Galenwe, Hircine, Worm, Torug, Olorime, Yolnahkriin, etc.

    Vykosa would have to be completely reworked or removed from the game in order for something like Bani to maybe be considered.

    The fact of the matter is Vykosa is still strong enough to serve its purpose effectively and while that's true and while it remains a 2 piece set........Bani will never have a place.

    Using a 5 piece for what a 2 piece can do is just bad math.



  • satanio
    satanio
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    Iron_Blurr wrote: »
    Im just sad that pve tanks will basically have no options next patch. Healer is probably going to run symphony. Tanks will run tremorscale for stam groups but other than that, where are the good options for tanks? The answer is there aren't any.
    Might as well just drop monster sets and start using weapon sets or that new Hircines bounty ring for a speed buff.. I cant wait until that speed ring gets nerfed for the sake of pvp again just like swift trait was.

    I swear all pvp players do is cry and complain and get unique things nerfed because they refuse to adapt.

    This next patch the combat spirit buff will reduce all healing in pvp by another 10% but i bet these bad pvp players will still complain about healing being too strong. How much more should they nerf heals? 70%? 80%? 90%? Why dont we just completely disabled healing and all physical and spell resistance in pvp if tanks and healers are THAT oppressive..

    Lucky was right tbh..

    We do have some options. Symphony will be worn by tanks. If more horns are needed, and Bloodspawn is not good in that particular content, you can still put potentates on the back bar and wear one 1 piece bonus, either monster set bonus or mythic. Lord warden does the same thing it used to. Sustain sets got rektd, I dunno which one of them is really good at this point. Thorvukun will be used for the same stuff as it was - ez mode for trash (with 75% uptime). Vykosa aswell.

    We don't have less options... we have the same but it is slightly weaker :D
    Current public stam parses on Iron Atro so far (esologs - Harrowstorm)
    DW&Bow
    2H&Bow
    Bow&Bow
    ESOLEAKS CASUALTIES:
    Checkmath
    Tasear
    RIP
  • Iron_Blurr
    Iron_Blurr
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    Calypso589 wrote: »
    You're choosing Vykosa not because it's still good, but because there's nothing better

    Vykosa is still good. There doesn't need to be something better for it to be dropped. If it was bad after its nerf, it would've been dropped already. Period.

    But it hasn't been and that's because it still does what it needs to do.

    Think about it. Vykosa certainly isn't mandatory for clearing the content it's popular in. It's popular in Nahviintaas HM because it's easier to guard the MT who uses it and forego the switch after the Shattered debuff.

    If Vykosa was so bad after its nerf, then that strategy just wouldn't be used anymore.

    So yeah, it does what it needs to do in the situations you need it to do it in. It's not as strong as Major Maim, but it also doesn't need to be.

    20% reduction in weapon and spell damage isn't something to scoff at.
    Prog groups aren't picking stronger debuff than Vykosa not because they'd waste five-piece

    Oh no no, that's exactly why it isn't being used. Like I said, Bani's procc could be in complete control of the player and it still won't be worth sacrificing Ebon, Alkosh, post-Greymoor Galenwe, Hircine, Worm, Torug, Olorime, Yolnahkriin, etc.

    Vykosa would have to be completely reworked or removed from the game in order for something like Bani to maybe be considered.

    The fact of the matter is Vykosa is still strong enough to serve its purpose effectively and while that's true and while it remains a 2 piece set........Bani will never have a place.

    Using a 5 piece for what a 2 piece can do is just bad math.



    Vykosa still kinda sucks though. I've tanked Nav hm on a Nb, Dk and Necro tank and you absolutely dont need vykosa to survive. All you need is a healer to guard you and that should be enough. Keep in mind I usually tank at stage 4 vamp too. Too lazy to drop vamp stage unless it's absolutely necessary.
    So if you dont need vykosa for probably the hardest fire boss Hm trial in the game at stage 4 vamp, when exactly do you need it?
  • Iron_Blurr
    Iron_Blurr
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    satanio wrote: »
    Iron_Blurr wrote: »
    Im just sad that pve tanks will basically have no options next patch. Healer is probably going to run symphony. Tanks will run tremorscale for stam groups but other than that, where are the good options for tanks? The answer is there aren't any.
    Might as well just drop monster sets and start using weapon sets or that new Hircines bounty ring for a speed buff.. I cant wait until that speed ring gets nerfed for the sake of pvp again just like swift trait was.

    I swear all pvp players do is cry and complain and get unique things nerfed because they refuse to adapt.

    This next patch the combat spirit buff will reduce all healing in pvp by another 10% but i bet these bad pvp players will still complain about healing being too strong. How much more should they nerf heals? 70%? 80%? 90%? Why dont we just completely disabled healing and all physical and spell resistance in pvp if tanks and healers are THAT oppressive..

    Lucky was right tbh..

    We do have some options. Symphony will be worn by tanks. If more horns are needed, and Bloodspawn is not good in that particular content, you can still put potentates on the back bar and wear one 1 piece bonus, either monster set bonus or mythic. Lord warden does the same thing it used to. Sustain sets got rektd, I dunno which one of them is really good at this point. Thorvukun will be used for the same stuff as it was - ez mode for trash (with 75% uptime). Vykosa aswell.

    We don't have less options... we have the same but it is slightly weaker :D

    I was under the assumption that symphony no longer stacks. So only one person in the trial should run it. And since the 1 piece is healing done it might as well be a healer.. Maybe im wrong so correct me if i am here.

    Bloodspawn is kinda stupid honestly. You don't need the mitigation. I don't understand why it even gives that. The proc is too short and completely up to rng when you get it. It's not reliable enough of a proc to assume that it will be up in situations and plan your build accordingly. I wish they just removed all the armor and left the ulti gen where it was originally.
  • satanio
    satanio
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    Iron_Blurr wrote: »
    satanio wrote: »
    Iron_Blurr wrote: »
    Im just sad that pve tanks will basically have no options next patch. Healer is probably going to run symphony. Tanks will run tremorscale for stam groups but other than that, where are the good options for tanks? The answer is there aren't any.
    Might as well just drop monster sets and start using weapon sets or that new Hircines bounty ring for a speed buff.. I cant wait until that speed ring gets nerfed for the sake of pvp again just like swift trait was.

    I swear all pvp players do is cry and complain and get unique things nerfed because they refuse to adapt.

    This next patch the combat spirit buff will reduce all healing in pvp by another 10% but i bet these bad pvp players will still complain about healing being too strong. How much more should they nerf heals? 70%? 80%? 90%? Why dont we just completely disabled healing and all physical and spell resistance in pvp if tanks and healers are THAT oppressive..

    Lucky was right tbh..

    We do have some options. Symphony will be worn by tanks. If more horns are needed, and Bloodspawn is not good in that particular content, you can still put potentates on the back bar and wear one 1 piece bonus, either monster set bonus or mythic. Lord warden does the same thing it used to. Sustain sets got rektd, I dunno which one of them is really good at this point. Thorvukun will be used for the same stuff as it was - ez mode for trash (with 75% uptime). Vykosa aswell.

    We don't have less options... we have the same but it is slightly weaker :D

    I was under the assumption that symphony no longer stacks. So only one person in the trial should run it. And since the 1 piece is healing done it might as well be a healer.. Maybe im wrong so correct me if i am here.

    Bloodspawn is kinda stupid honestly. You don't need the mitigation. I don't understand why it even gives that. The proc is too short and completely up to rng when you get it. It's not reliable enough of a proc to assume that it will be up in situations and plan your build accordingly. I wish they just removed all the armor and left the ulti gen where it was originally.

    Yes, it does not stack. You are right. After quick pts check I can confirm that Symphony does not stack.

    About Bloodspawn... last patch I completely removed this set from my repertoire and substitued it with Potentates ice staff on the back bar, it matches great with alkosh on front bar. I cannot express how satisfied I was with this setup (3+1+5+5) on my DK... and It will be better with new Bloodlord's Embrace mythic chest next patch.
    Current public stam parses on Iron Atro so far (esologs - Harrowstorm)
    DW&Bow
    2H&Bow
    Bow&Bow
    ESOLEAKS CASUALTIES:
    Checkmath
    Tasear
    RIP
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