Ilambris: you nerfed the cool part of it. The whole concept is based around the twin procs which no longer can happen.
Infernal Guardian: I have no words. This set was bad and needed a buff not a nerf.
Bloodspawn: Again the unique aspect of the set was nerfed in favor of keeping a mediocre hybrid effect. In my opinion the ulti gen should be brought back to what it was and remove the armor buff part of it completely. There are plenty of armor buffing sets if that's what you're looking for. There was ONLY ONE ultimate generation set.
Thorvokun: Again the whole point of this set was the trade off of getting 100% uptime on minor maim and defile. If you need to do something to the set go ahead and completely remove the damage done or limit the aoe size in some way. But dont nerf the unique aspect of the set. The whole point of the set was that is saves you a bar slot.
John_Falstaff wrote: »@Calypso589 , you're wrong about it.
The issue with nerfs to Thurvokun and many other sets (one other good example is Vykosa) is that with those nerfs, ZOS penalizes skill. It's an ongoing trend, and it's sad to see how they do 'spreadsheet balancing' just by looking at numbers set provides, but not looking at how and when it is used. Thurvokun wasn't even that strong in PvP, save for people who fail to move out of AoEs, and it was niche in PvE, but it was consistent and tanks knew where to use it - that's skill. Vykosa was strong, but had very short duration and tank had to know precisely where and when to use it - that's skill. Now it's replaced by a 5pc set, and it wouldn't be a tragedy on its own, but with the new set, you can't precisely control when it procs. Consistent and controlled performance in good hands is being replaced by randomness - set can proc in a spike of hard-hitting trash... or it may be on cooldown and it is going to be useless then, and you can't possibly control it.
That I see as the main issue of the latest misguided balancing effort by ZOS. They remove or make useless good sets that emphasize on player skill, and replace with sets that are all about randomness. Set can protect you, or it can't, it's a matter of luck. You can't rely on that when you're doing an important run, you need consistent performance, not something you can't control. You don't need mitigation 'on average', because damage isn't coming averaged and monotonous. It comes in spikes. If set allows you to mitigate spikes and it's predictable, it's a good set. If set may or may not help you and it's out of your control, it's a bad set. I wouldn't have minded if Thurvokun had its damage stripped off it, or even defile removed, but as long as it stays consistent and predictable.
It clearly shows that currently, combat team only cares about PvP where price of getting bad luck is not quite as high. And to think of it, it wasn't -that- long ago when ZOS changed Major Evasion from a chancy proc to a consistent mitigation. Now they're moving in opposite direction - skilled people have their reliable tools taken away from them. It's a shame, really.
Thorvukun was rightfully nerfed and imo the minor maim should still be removed from it.
John_Falstaff wrote: »@Calypso589 , you're wrong about it.
The issue with nerfs to Thurvokun and many other sets (one other good example is Vykosa) is that with those nerfs, ZOS penalizes skill. It's an ongoing trend, and it's sad to see how they do 'spreadsheet balancing' just by looking at numbers set provides, but not looking at how and when it is used. Thurvokun wasn't even that strong in PvP, save for people who fail to move out of AoEs, and it was niche in PvE, but it was consistent and tanks knew where to use it - that's skill. Vykosa was strong, but had very short duration and tank had to know precisely where and when to use it - that's skill. Now it's replaced by a 5pc set, and it wouldn't be a tragedy on its own, but with the new set, you can't precisely control when it procs. Consistent and controlled performance in good hands is being replaced by randomness - set can proc in a spike of hard-hitting trash... or it may be on cooldown and it is going to be useless then, and you can't possibly control it.
That I see as the main issue of the latest misguided balancing effort by ZOS. They remove or make useless good sets that emphasize on player skill, and replace with sets that are all about randomness. Set can protect you, or it can't, it's a matter of luck. You can't rely on that when you're doing an important run, you need consistent performance, not something you can't control. You don't need mitigation 'on average', because damage isn't coming averaged and monotonous. It comes in spikes. If set allows you to mitigate spikes and it's predictable, it's a good set. If set may or may not help you and it's out of your control, it's a bad set. I wouldn't have minded if Thurvokun had its damage stripped off it, or even defile removed, but as long as it stays consistent and predictable.
It clearly shows that currently, combat team only cares about PvP where price of getting bad luck is not quite as high. And to think of it, it wasn't -that- long ago when ZOS changed Major Evasion from a chancy proc to a consistent mitigation. Now they're moving in opposite direction - skilled people have their reliable tools taken away from them. It's a shame, really.
Saying Thorvukun wasn't that strong in pvp is simply wrong. Minor maim is one of the strongest defensive debuffs in the game and on certain classes (like stamcro) being able to get major/minor defile with high uptime is incredibly oppressive. And unless you're a range spec you don't simply "walk out of it" unless you're fine with never killing the person using Thorvukun (since they'll just turtle inside the AoE).
Thorvukun was rightfully nerfed and imo the minor maim should still be removed from it.
John_Falstaff wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »@Calypso589 , you're wrong about it.
The issue with nerfs to Thurvokun and many other sets (one other good example is Vykosa) is that with those nerfs, ZOS penalizes skill. It's an ongoing trend, and it's sad to see how they do 'spreadsheet balancing' just by looking at numbers set provides, but not looking at how and when it is used. Thurvokun wasn't even that strong in PvP, save for people who fail to move out of AoEs, and it was niche in PvE, but it was consistent and tanks knew where to use it - that's skill. Vykosa was strong, but had very short duration and tank had to know precisely where and when to use it - that's skill. Now it's replaced by a 5pc set, and it wouldn't be a tragedy on its own, but with the new set, you can't precisely control when it procs. Consistent and controlled performance in good hands is being replaced by randomness - set can proc in a spike of hard-hitting trash... or it may be on cooldown and it is going to be useless then, and you can't possibly control it.
That I see as the main issue of the latest misguided balancing effort by ZOS. They remove or make useless good sets that emphasize on player skill, and replace with sets that are all about randomness. Set can protect you, or it can't, it's a matter of luck. You can't rely on that when you're doing an important run, you need consistent performance, not something you can't control. You don't need mitigation 'on average', because damage isn't coming averaged and monotonous. It comes in spikes. If set allows you to mitigate spikes and it's predictable, it's a good set. If set may or may not help you and it's out of your control, it's a bad set. I wouldn't have minded if Thurvokun had its damage stripped off it, or even defile removed, but as long as it stays consistent and predictable.
It clearly shows that currently, combat team only cares about PvP where price of getting bad luck is not quite as high. And to think of it, it wasn't -that- long ago when ZOS changed Major Evasion from a chancy proc to a consistent mitigation. Now they're moving in opposite direction - skilled people have their reliable tools taken away from them. It's a shame, really.
Saying Thorvukun wasn't that strong in pvp is simply wrong. Minor maim is one of the strongest defensive debuffs in the game and on certain classes (like stamcro) being able to get major/minor defile with high uptime is incredibly oppressive. And unless you're a range spec you don't simply "walk out of it" unless you're fine with never killing the person using Thorvukun (since they'll just turtle inside the AoE).
Thorvukun was rightfully nerfed and imo the minor maim should still be removed from it.
If they're turtling inside the AoE, they're also fine with not killing you, if you think of it, so I don't see anything bad in defensive playstyle. And if they follow you out, their set is on cooldown and can't proc again for a while. So no, I'm not buying what you're saying, it's a flawed line of reasoning.
This. Any other discussion is just a waste of time. Considered this one solved boys and girls.lucky_Sage wrote: »To get people to farm the mythic item
VaranisArano wrote: »As per the PTS: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/522289/pts-patch-notes-v6-0-0
"Monster Masks have been updated to be more comparable to 5 piece sets in regards to our set bonus efficiency standards. While most are value adjustments, a few sets have received larger adjustments to either bring them in line with intended fantasies or to improve their flexibility in use cases."
YMMV on whether you agree with that.
Iron_Blurr wrote: »There are quite a few monster sets that were changed for the better and I want to give credit where it is due for those. But some of these nerfs were just ridiculous. Why were these sets nerfed??
Ilambris: you nerfed the cool part of it. The whole concept is based around the twin procs which no longer can happen.
Infernal Guardian: I have no words. This set was bad and needed a buff not a nerf.
Mighty chudan: it gives a buff that every class in the game has easy access to and some mitigation and health. All this set did is save you a bar slot so you dont need to slot an armor buff. The tradeoff was you lose any damage/healing/resource potential another set would have given.
Grundwulf: Really? Was the 300 resource restore per 6 seconds absolutely necessary to nerf?
Bloodspawn: Again the unique aspect of the set was nerfed in favor of keeping a mediocre hybrid effect. In my opinion the ulti gen should be brought back to what it was and remove the armor buff part of it completely. There are plenty of armor buffing sets if that's what you're looking for. There was ONLY ONE ultimate generation set.
Earthgore: The point of this set was an on demand burst heal. There are plenty of options for healing over time already. Stop nerfing the unique elements of these sets and nerf the other parts of them to retain their identity. Make the proc every 35 or 45 seconds if you want. You can even take away the ground effect removal. But dont nerf the burst heal because we have plenty of healing over time sets already.
Thorvokun: Again the whole point of this set was the trade off of getting 100% uptime on minor maim and defile. If you need to do something to the set go ahead and completely remove the damage done or limit the aoe size in some way. But dont nerf the unique aspect of the set. The whole point of the set was that is saves you a bar slot.
Lord warden: Again i have no words.. Who was this set hurting?? It's a pve tank set for group support.
I'm so confused about some of these changes. Can we get some reasoning at least to explain why some of these already underperforming sets were nerfed?
Exactly.JanTanhide wrote: »One word: PVP
John_Falstaff wrote: »@Calypso589 , you're wrong about it
Thurvokun wasn't even that strong in PvP, save for people who fail to move out of AoEs, and it was niche in PvE
Vykosa was strong, but had very short duration and tank had to know precisely where and when to use it - that's skill. Now it's replaced by a 5pc set, and it wouldn't be a tragedy on its own, but with the new set, you can't precisely control when it procs.
Consistent and controlled performance in good hands is being replaced by randomness
lucky_Sage wrote: »To get people to farm the mythic item
Lucky is right.
John_Falstaff wrote: »@Calypso589 , so nerf isn't in place yet, but you're already speaking about looking at your guild and judging how it'll be used or not used after Greymoor. Cool story
And you didn't even read what I wrote because about Bani, you basically repeated what I wrote in different words. And 'no replacement happening' is not backed by anything. Your 'they're not' is not an argument, it's your groundless opinion, and I'm not even responding to it because you gave nothing to discuss except your beliefs.
John_Falstaff wrote: »@Calypso589 , doesn't tell me about anything. "I'm the end game community", "butt ton of people" - if that's everything your testing resulted in, then sorry but I'll disregard your opinion
Vykosa was strong, but had very short duration and tank had to know precisely where and when to use it - that's skill. Now it's replaced by a 5pc set,
So I'll just point you upwards and say that it's precisely what I said, that nobody runs Bani, but not because it's weak but because you can't proc it when you need the proc
John_Falstaff wrote: »@Calypso589 , apologies from me too.
As for the latter: it's the nature of the buff that matters. Look at where Vykosa was (and still is despite it being much much worse is used). St. Olms. Dragons during breath. In other words, to mitigate damage precisely when it needs to be mitigated; I know of hardly any case when you'd use Vykosa off cooldown. Yes, Major Maim is not a good debuff to waste 5pc set on it, but I absolutely could see Bani used by prog groups if they're struggling precisely at those places... except they can't, because you can't control Bani. You're choosing Vykosa not because it's still good, but because there's nothing better, and maybe Bani would've been stronger for this precise purpose... except you can't use it where you used Vykosa before - you can't proc it during breath or storm. Prog groups aren't picking stronger debuff than Vykosa not because they'd waste five-piece, but because you simply can't use it - the use cases for Vykosa are very specific and Bani just can't work there.
You're choosing Vykosa not because it's still good, but because there's nothing better
Prog groups aren't picking stronger debuff than Vykosa not because they'd waste five-piece
Iron_Blurr wrote: »Im just sad that pve tanks will basically have no options next patch. Healer is probably going to run symphony. Tanks will run tremorscale for stam groups but other than that, where are the good options for tanks? The answer is there aren't any.
Might as well just drop monster sets and start using weapon sets or that new Hircines bounty ring for a speed buff.. I cant wait until that speed ring gets nerfed for the sake of pvp again just like swift trait was.
I swear all pvp players do is cry and complain and get unique things nerfed because they refuse to adapt.
This next patch the combat spirit buff will reduce all healing in pvp by another 10% but i bet these bad pvp players will still complain about healing being too strong. How much more should they nerf heals? 70%? 80%? 90%? Why dont we just completely disabled healing and all physical and spell resistance in pvp if tanks and healers are THAT oppressive..
Lucky was right tbh..
Calypso589 wrote: »You're choosing Vykosa not because it's still good, but because there's nothing better
Vykosa is still good. There doesn't need to be something better for it to be dropped. If it was bad after its nerf, it would've been dropped already. Period.
But it hasn't been and that's because it still does what it needs to do.
Think about it. Vykosa certainly isn't mandatory for clearing the content it's popular in. It's popular in Nahviintaas HM because it's easier to guard the MT who uses it and forego the switch after the Shattered debuff.
If Vykosa was so bad after its nerf, then that strategy just wouldn't be used anymore.
So yeah, it does what it needs to do in the situations you need it to do it in. It's not as strong as Major Maim, but it also doesn't need to be.
20% reduction in weapon and spell damage isn't something to scoff at.Prog groups aren't picking stronger debuff than Vykosa not because they'd waste five-piece
Oh no no, that's exactly why it isn't being used. Like I said, Bani's procc could be in complete control of the player and it still won't be worth sacrificing Ebon, Alkosh, post-Greymoor Galenwe, Hircine, Worm, Torug, Olorime, Yolnahkriin, etc.
Vykosa would have to be completely reworked or removed from the game in order for something like Bani to maybe be considered.
The fact of the matter is Vykosa is still strong enough to serve its purpose effectively and while that's true and while it remains a 2 piece set........Bani will never have a place.
Using a 5 piece for what a 2 piece can do is just bad math.
Iron_Blurr wrote: »Im just sad that pve tanks will basically have no options next patch. Healer is probably going to run symphony. Tanks will run tremorscale for stam groups but other than that, where are the good options for tanks? The answer is there aren't any.
Might as well just drop monster sets and start using weapon sets or that new Hircines bounty ring for a speed buff.. I cant wait until that speed ring gets nerfed for the sake of pvp again just like swift trait was.
I swear all pvp players do is cry and complain and get unique things nerfed because they refuse to adapt.
This next patch the combat spirit buff will reduce all healing in pvp by another 10% but i bet these bad pvp players will still complain about healing being too strong. How much more should they nerf heals? 70%? 80%? 90%? Why dont we just completely disabled healing and all physical and spell resistance in pvp if tanks and healers are THAT oppressive..
Lucky was right tbh..
We do have some options. Symphony will be worn by tanks. If more horns are needed, and Bloodspawn is not good in that particular content, you can still put potentates on the back bar and wear one 1 piece bonus, either monster set bonus or mythic. Lord warden does the same thing it used to. Sustain sets got rektd, I dunno which one of them is really good at this point. Thorvukun will be used for the same stuff as it was - ez mode for trash (with 75% uptime). Vykosa aswell.
We don't have less options... we have the same but it is slightly weaker
lucky_Sage wrote: »To get people to farm the mythic item
Iron_Blurr wrote: »Iron_Blurr wrote: »Im just sad that pve tanks will basically have no options next patch. Healer is probably going to run symphony. Tanks will run tremorscale for stam groups but other than that, where are the good options for tanks? The answer is there aren't any.
Might as well just drop monster sets and start using weapon sets or that new Hircines bounty ring for a speed buff.. I cant wait until that speed ring gets nerfed for the sake of pvp again just like swift trait was.
I swear all pvp players do is cry and complain and get unique things nerfed because they refuse to adapt.
This next patch the combat spirit buff will reduce all healing in pvp by another 10% but i bet these bad pvp players will still complain about healing being too strong. How much more should they nerf heals? 70%? 80%? 90%? Why dont we just completely disabled healing and all physical and spell resistance in pvp if tanks and healers are THAT oppressive..
Lucky was right tbh..
We do have some options. Symphony will be worn by tanks. If more horns are needed, and Bloodspawn is not good in that particular content, you can still put potentates on the back bar and wear one 1 piece bonus, either monster set bonus or mythic. Lord warden does the same thing it used to. Sustain sets got rektd, I dunno which one of them is really good at this point. Thorvukun will be used for the same stuff as it was - ez mode for trash (with 75% uptime). Vykosa aswell.
We don't have less options... we have the same but it is slightly weaker
I was under the assumption that symphony no longer stacks. So only one person in the trial should run it. And since the 1 piece is healing done it might as well be a healer.. Maybe im wrong so correct me if i am here.
Bloodspawn is kinda stupid honestly. You don't need the mitigation. I don't understand why it even gives that. The proc is too short and completely up to rng when you get it. It's not reliable enough of a proc to assume that it will be up in situations and plan your build accordingly. I wish they just removed all the armor and left the ulti gen where it was originally.