Why were monster sets nerfed?

Calypso589

@YandereGirlfriend

You defended some of the nerfs but omitted several of the most egregious and inexplicable offenders. Chief among these are the crimes against Grundwulf, Lord Warden, and Infernal Guardian. I'm yet to read a compelling argument that any of them were overpowered in either PvP or PvE formats.

Honestly? Because there’s not much that’ll change.

Grundwulf will still be used by those who prefer it (usually nightblade tanks from what I’ve seen and no one else). But honestly use of Grundwulf was niche to begin with and Stonekeeper outclassed it (and still will).

I don’t have an opinion on infernal guardian. It’s never used in PvE.

Lord Warden is fine.

The amount of armor it grants was reduced but that’s not going to affect its usage whatsoever.

Tanks don’t ever need to be at resistance cap & DPS still receive a great boon from it.

So yeah. I can’t really explain why the adjustments were made (because I don’t have the data in front of me) but as far as PvE goes there won’t be much of a change. All of those monster sets will remain right where they are in the meta.

Calypso589

@xXMeowMeowXx

Pretty Much This^

Has anyone in this thread actually looked at what Mythic items actually do?

I have to assume no, if this is the conspiracy some of y’all are running with. lol

None of them are being considered for serious raids, folks. Sorry to burst the conspiracy bubble.

Their utilities are way too niche.


@Iron_Blurr healing done isn’t the reason to wear Symphony. It never was. It’s about the resource return. That’s why healers OR tanks ran it.

Post Greymoor, Symphony will possess the capability to procc on multiple people at once or in quick succession. The resources returned per tick was reduced, but due to the much larger group utility it now possesses the adjustments overall are viewed as a buff.

This is the reason why only one support will need to wear it. Usually a tank these days.

Olupajmibanan

Calypso589 wrote: »

@xXMeowMeowXx

Pretty Much This^

Has anyone in this thread actually looked at what Mythic items actually do?

I have to assume no, if this is the conspiracy some of y’all are running with. lol

None of them are being considered for serious raids, folks. Sorry to burst the conspiracy bubble.

Their utilities are way too niche.


@Iron_Blurr healing done isn’t the reason to wear Symphony. It never was. It’s about the resource return. That’s why healers OR tanks ran it.

Post Greymoor, Symphony will possess the capability to procc on multiple people at once or in quick succession. The resources returned per tick was reduced, but due to the much larger group utility it now possesses the adjustments overall are viewed as a buff.

This is the reason why only one support will need to wear it. Usually a tank these days.

One thing you maybe don't know about symphony is that it got stealth changed and the cooldown is now tied to receivers (you get meridias boon, you can't get another in 18 seconds from any source), therefore only one symphony actualy can be used in a trial group.

On live you can proc multiple Meridias Boons on one target simultaneously.

Kidgangster101

All they did was Nerf tanks and healers and buff dps. Then people wonder why it takes forever to find a tank or healer lol.

In PVP these changes are too this entire patch is going to be one of the worst lol. You will see a lot of threads that there is too much dps in the game in PVP thus calling for Nerf x class and it's actually just going to be due to monster dps sets and dps sets that will cause such hate.

Jaimeh

lucky_Sage wrote: »

To get people to farm the mythic item

MLGProPlayer

lucky_Sage wrote: »

To get people to farm the mythic item

Sorry, going to be too busy re-farming vMA. No need to buy the new expansion when you have a 100 hour grind waiting for you in content from 2015.

Calypso589

Jaimeh wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

To get people to farm the mythic item

+1 to the list of people who haven’t actually looked at what mythic items do. Lol

@Olupajmibanan

One thing you maybe don't know about symphony is that it got stealth changed and the cooldown is now tied to receivers (you get meridias boon, you can't get another in 18 seconds from any source), therefore only one symphony actualy can be used in a trial group.

It wasn’t a stealth change. It was there plain as day in week 1 of the PTS patch notes.

I did not however know that the current version could stack on someone, though in order for that to happen the person would have to REALLY be burning through their resources which is probably indicative of bad play.

But like I said, the wider group utility of Symphony is being seen as a buff. It’s a good thing that only 1 support will have to wear it now.

Jaimeh

Calypso589 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

To get people to farm the mythic item

+1 to the list of people who haven’t actually looked at what mythic items do. Lol

@Olupajmibanan

One thing you maybe don't know about symphony is that it got stealth changed and the cooldown is now tied to receivers (you get meridias boon, you can't get another in 18 seconds from any source), therefore only one symphony actualy can be used in a trial group.

It wasn’t a stealth change. It was there plain as day in week 1 of the PTS patch notes.

I did not however know that the current version could stack on someone, though in order for that to happen the person would have to REALLY be burning through their resources which is probably indicative of bad play.

But like I said, the wider group utility of Symphony is being seen as a buff. It’s a good thing that only 1 support will have to wear it now.

We've looked at the items, but it seems that are nerfing sets just enough to pave the way for alternative build ideas where you're not doing the usual 5/5/2. If the mythic items didn't offer anything too distinctive, and if other sets remained superior, people who only care about end-game wouldn't engage with the antiquity system.

Olupajmibanan

Calypso589 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

To get people to farm the mythic item

+1 to the list of people who haven’t actually looked at what mythic items do. Lol

@Olupajmibanan

One thing you maybe don't know about symphony is that it got stealth changed and the cooldown is now tied to receivers (you get meridias boon, you can't get another in 18 seconds from any source), therefore only one symphony actualy can be used in a trial group.

It wasn’t a stealth change. It was there plain as day in week 1 of the PTS patch notes.

I did not however know that the current version could stack on someone, though in order for that to happen the person would have to REALLY be burning through their resources which is probably indicative of bad play.

But like I said, the wider group utility of Symphony is being seen as a buff. It’s a good thing that only 1 support will have to wear it now.

Taking away Symphony's ability to stack and not announcing it is indeed a stealth change. It was not announced in 6.0.0 or any subsequent PTS patch.

Calypso589

Jaimeh wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

To get people to farm the mythic item

+1 to the list of people who haven’t actually looked at what mythic items do. Lol

@Olupajmibanan

One thing you maybe don't know about symphony is that it got stealth changed and the cooldown is now tied to receivers (you get meridias boon, you can't get another in 18 seconds from any source), therefore only one symphony actualy can be used in a trial group.

It wasn’t a stealth change. It was there plain as day in week 1 of the PTS patch notes.

I did not however know that the current version could stack on someone, though in order for that to happen the person would have to REALLY be burning through their resources which is probably indicative of bad play.

But like I said, the wider group utility of Symphony is being seen as a buff. It’s a good thing that only 1 support will have to wear it now.

We've looked at the items, but it seems that are nerfing sets just enough to pave the way for alternative build ideas where you're not doing the usual 5/5/2. If the mythic items didn't offer anything too distinctive, and if other sets remained superior, people who only care about end-game wouldn't engage with the antiquity system.

No. Just, no. To imply that nerfs to monster sets are designed to push mythic items is to imply that Mythic Items will serve to fill whatever’s missing

Think about it. What Mythic item is being pushed by Lord Warden being nerfed?

I mean cmon people.

None of those items are going to disrupt 5/5/2 in trials (as far as optimized groups go).


They. Are. Niche. THATS what they’re designed to be.

Thrassian Stranglers are going to be used to cheese dungeon speed runs & potentially no death runs. That’s gonna be hilariously awesome.

The speed ring will be great for overworld gathering.

The heavy chest that restores magicka miiiiiight have some PVP applications but will be utterly useless in PvE because Balance is a thing.

The other ones aren’t even being discussed in any capacity. 🤷🏻‍♂️

There are reasons to engage with antiquities that have nothing to do with Trials, as I’ve briefly outlined.

But other than that, this notion that they’re nerfing monster sets to push mythic is incredibly ignorant.

It implies that the monster sets that were adjusted will be dropped.

They won’t be. The adjustments were NOT that severe.

Iron_Blurr

Calypso589 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

To get people to farm the mythic item

+1 to the list of people who haven’t actually looked at what mythic items do. Lol

@Olupajmibanan

One thing you maybe don't know about symphony is that it got stealth changed and the cooldown is now tied to receivers (you get meridias boon, you can't get another in 18 seconds from any source), therefore only one symphony actualy can be used in a trial group.

It wasn’t a stealth change. It was there plain as day in week 1 of the PTS patch notes.

I did not however know that the current version could stack on someone, though in order for that to happen the person would have to REALLY be burning through their resources which is probably indicative of bad play.

But like I said, the wider group utility of Symphony is being seen as a buff. It’s a good thing that only 1 support will have to wear it now.

We've looked at the items, but it seems that are nerfing sets just enough to pave the way for alternative build ideas where you're not doing the usual 5/5/2. If the mythic items didn't offer anything too distinctive, and if other sets remained superior, people who only care about end-game wouldn't engage with the antiquity system.

No. Just, no. To imply that nerfs to monster sets are designed to push mythic items is to imply that Mythic Items will serve to fill whatever’s missing

Think about it. What Mythic item is being pushed by Lord Warden being nerfed?

I mean cmon people.

None of those items are going to disrupt 5/5/2 in trials (as far as optimized groups go).


They. Are. Niche. THATS what they’re designed to be.

Thrassian Stranglers are going to be used to cheese dungeon speed runs & potentially no death runs. That’s gonna be hilariously awesome.

The speed ring will be great for overworld gathering.

The heavy chest that restores magicka miiiiiight have some PVP applications but will be utterly useless in PvE because Balance is a thing.

The other ones aren’t even being discussed in any capacity. 🤷🏻‍♂️

There are reasons to engage with antiquities that have nothing to do with Trials, as I’ve briefly outlined.

But other than that, this notion that they’re nerfing monster sets to push mythic is incredibly ignorant.

It implies that the monster sets that were adjusted will be dropped.

They won’t be. The adjustments were NOT that severe.

What are you talking about?? Of course mythic items are way stronger than monster helms now. You can get a 15% speed boost in combat and 45% out. Invaluable to off tanks stacking adds etc.
You can use therassian stranglers now on a dps which will add way more dps than most monster sets.
Tanks can also use the blood chest for a ton of mag regen. Way better than something comparable like engine guardian, stonekeeper or grundwulf.

Personally i think the person earlier in this thread who said to drop monster sets and back bar potentates has the right idea. You can fit a mythic item AND a back bar potentates on tank now and all you have to give up is your monster set.

But yea im sure the sets that were adjusted wont be dropped. Please tell me who is still going to use Infernal guardian or mighty chudan for example.

YandereGirlfriend

@Calypso589 Your points are well-taken and I'm glad to see that you're not defending those nerfs.

The greatest condemnation of the nerfs to Grundwulf and Infernal Guardian are when you (to paraphrase) say that "They're niche or unused and will continue to be niche or unused." It breaks the mind trying to grasp a justification for nerfing sets that are already unused or obscure and utterly alien to any metas, either PvE or PvP. All these nerfs do is reinforce their dumpster status.

Iron_Blurr

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Calypso589 Your points are well-taken and I'm glad to see that you're not defending those nerfs.

The greatest condemnation of the nerfs to Grundwulf and Infernal Guardian are when you (to paraphrase) say that "They're niche or unused and will continue to be niche or unused." It breaks the mind trying to grasp a justification for nerfing sets that are already unused or obscure and utterly alien to any metas, either PvE or PvP. All these nerfs do is reinforce their dumpster status.

Exactly. He just glossed over your examples.
Grundwulf was nerfed by 300 primary resource per 6 seconds. 300/6=50. Tell me.. Who was the extra 50 regen per second hurting?? Oh wait maybe it's that new mythic set that adds 450 mag or stam regen while under 50% of the opposite resource... Hmm coincidence?? I think not..

Austinseph1

Just like when Iceheart got nerfed because of Mother Cianait, the monster helms are getting a nerf to make the antiquity system look more attractive. there tends to be a pattern to things getting a nerf and them adding in new things that look more attractive because of it. Next they will see vampire isnt used so something that is used will be nerfed to make it look more attractive.

Calypso589

@Iron_Blurr What are you talking about?? Of course mythic items are way stronger than monster helms now. You can get a 15% speed boost in combat and 45% out. Invaluable to off tanks stacking adds etc.

What are YOU talking about?

Who needs a speed boost to stack adds? Do the adds move faster or something cuz you moving faster sure as hell doesn't make a difference. O.0

You can use therassian stranglers now on a dps which will add way more dps than most monster sets.

Until you die once and you're wearing a dead item piece.

Only the sweatiest of trial groups are going to run Thrassian Stranglers and the reset the whole instance if everyone dies. Magicka compositions are going to start a trial while wearing Thrassian and then as members die, they'll just swap to a non-Thrassian setup.

That's exactly how that's gonna go. It's gonna be one or the other depending on how sweaty your group is.

Tanks can also use the blood chest for a ton of mag regen. Way better than something comparable like engine guardian, stonekeeper or grundwulf

I repeat: Balance is a thing. That's unlimited magicka. Why would any tank wear that chest when they get more magicka from a single skill AND a major buff as well in the form of Resolve?

The chest is cute, but worthless when compared to current self sustaining skills tanks have available to them.

Personally i think the person earlier in this thread who said to drop monster sets and back bar potentates has the right idea. You can fit a mythic item AND a back bar potentates on tank now and all you have to give up is your monster set.

Potentates?

Why?

PvP? Certainly not for PvE.

But yea im sure the sets that were adjusted wont be dropped. Please tell me who is still going to use Infernal guardian or mighty chudan for example.

Are you implying they were commonplace beforehand?

Cuz i've got some bad news for you.

Exactly. He just glossed over your examples.

No I didn't?

Calypso589

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Calypso589 Your points are well-taken and I'm glad to see that you're not defending those nerfs.

The greatest condemnation of the nerfs to Grundwulf and Infernal Guardian are when you (to paraphrase) say that "They're niche or unused and will continue to be niche or unused." It breaks the mind trying to grasp a justification for nerfing sets that are already unused or obscure and utterly alien to any metas, either PvE or PvP. All these nerfs do is reinforce their dumpster status.

400+ sets in the game, some of of em are gonna possess dumpster status. /shrug

I'm not crying about Grundwulf or Infernal Guardian because they've never been good. Not for years now.

At least as far as PvE goes.

Well, Grundwulf did get some use (usually by nightblade tanks) and I doubt this patch will impact that all that much.

But yeah........much better options, man.

Not gonna sweat it.

Calypso589

@Austinseph1 Just like when Iceheart got nerfed because of Mother Cianait

The only hole in that theory is the fact that Iceheart's usage hasn't gone down all that much. It still does what it needs to and it does it better than Mother Cianait because Iceheart has better functionality. It just works. It doesn't need a channel like MC does.

ZoS didn't do themselves any favors with the timing that's for sure, but Iceheart definitely needed to be dialed back a bit.

The amount of whining that took place in the face of that change was proof enough of that. lol

satanio

Calypso589 wrote: »

Potentates?

Why?

PvP? Certainly not for PvE.

This one is on me since I suggest this setup. You just need a little bit of imagination to understand. Alkosh is and can be easily only slotted on one bar, therefore, your back bar is free and you can slap something more useful there like Alkosh's 129 WD and a debuff that is already active from the front bar. Potentates comes in handy, (if you cannot proc Bloodspawn effectively, which will be quite often after the nerfs). In conclusion, you'll get useless pvp dmg reduction (that is as useful as 129 WD) and 15% ulti reduce on Horn (from 250 -> 212). However, there is one free slot in this setup. I personaly used 1 piece 129 mag recovery, but after 6.0.0 Bloodlord's embrace will be better choice, if you need the mag recovery.

If anything is unclear keep asking questions.

Calypso589

satanio wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

Potentates?

Why?

PvP? Certainly not for PvE.

This one is on me since I suggest this setup. You just need a little bit of imagination to understand. Alkosh is and can be easily only slotted on one bar, therefore, your back bar is free and you can slap something more useful there like Alkosh's 129 WD and a debuff that is already active from the front bar. Potentates comes in handy, (if you cannot proc Bloodspawn effectively, which will be quite often after the nerfs). In conclusion, you'll get useless pvp dmg reduction (that is as useful as 129 WD) and 15% ulti reduce on Horn (from 250 -> 212). However, there is one free slot in this setup. I personaly used 1 piece 129 mag recovery, but after 6.0.0 Bloodlord's embrace will be better choice, if you need the mag recovery.

If anything is unclear keep asking questions.

I do have a question.

Why are you bending over backwards to slot in Bloodlord's embrace just to have it leave you with a random open slot, a dead PvP stat, and an overall setup that's so jank the chances of you being able to effectively modify it to fit the needs of the fight and your team is extremely small?

Why you doing all that?

I've got a better setup for ya.

Front Bar: Defensive Position (Asylum Sanctorium)
Back Bar: Alkosh staff/Jewels.
Body: Yolnahkriin
Monster Set: Symphony of Blades

Voila! No token slots, easily adjustable to fit the group's needs and possesses more magicka return than that Mythic Chest can ever give you in it's current form.

Why?

Because Defensive Position restores 1818 magicka when you absorb a projectile OR it restores 3636 magicka if nothing is absorbed. Best part is it'll still work even after you cast Defensive Stance and swap to your back bar.

That's a biiiit more than Bloodlord's Embrace, ain't it? And it doesn't require you to hold block which is also great since so many fights will leave you dead on the floor if you're permablocking through them. Not blocking for Magicka also means you're saving a great deal on stamina too which allows you to do other important things like dodging and stuff. /shrug

Not to mention there's the fact that Defensive Postion's time spent for magicka earned is completely static. I don't have to stand and wait for an enemy to attack me to get magicka back.

And once again, the skill Balance is a thing.

Balance = infinite magicka AND a major buff.

So what do you lose with my setup?

15% ultimate cost reduction.

Is that bad?

Nope. Heroic Slash should already be on your bar to do both the job of maiming and restoring ultimate to you through Minor Heroism.

Potions can do that too.

Having Warhorn up a few seconds faster with Potentates isn't worth the jankiness that's necessary to make it happen.

So to reiterate, there aren't really any situations where Bloodlord's Embrace is going to be used in PvE. It's outclassed by both a single skill and a 2 piece set and that 2 piece set is a lot easier to slot in and for more magicka return too.

JanTanhide

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Calypso589 , doesn't tell me about anything. "I'm the end game community", "butt ton of people" - if that's everything your testing resulted in, then sorry but I'll disregard your opinion.

> Noone runs Bani, my dude.

I think you have comprehension issues. So I'll just point you upwards and say that it's precisely what I said, that nobody runs Bani, but not because it's weak but because you can't proc it when you need the proc. But it seems like you're reading much like you're testing. As in, not very well.

I've used Bani's a few times. Have to be very close to the boss and you are correct. It just doesn't proc as much as I would like. I don't know yet what I will do for Tank sets when Greymoor goes Live but I can say I won't be pugging Vet DLC dungeons anymore on my Tanks. Not till I figure out a new setup that works well.

ItsJustHashtag

Calypso589 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

To get people to farm the mythic item

+1 to the list of people who haven’t actually looked at what mythic items do. Lol

@Olupajmibanan

One thing you maybe don't know about symphony is that it got stealth changed and the cooldown is now tied to receivers (you get meridias boon, you can't get another in 18 seconds from any source), therefore only one symphony actualy can be used in a trial group.

It wasn’t a stealth change. It was there plain as day in week 1 of the PTS patch notes.

I did not however know that the current version could stack on someone, though in order for that to happen the person would have to REALLY be burning through their resources which is probably indicative of bad play.

But like I said, the wider group utility of Symphony is being seen as a buff. It’s a good thing that only 1 support will have to wear it now.

We've looked at the items, but it seems that are nerfing sets just enough to pave the way for alternative build ideas where you're not doing the usual 5/5/2. If the mythic items didn't offer anything too distinctive, and if other sets remained superior, people who only care about end-game wouldn't engage with the antiquity system.

No. Just, no. To imply that nerfs to monster sets are designed to push mythic items is to imply that Mythic Items will serve to fill whatever’s missing

Think about it. What Mythic item is being pushed by Lord Warden being nerfed?

I mean cmon people.

None of those items are going to disrupt 5/5/2 in trials (as far as optimized groups go).


They. Are. Niche. THATS what they’re designed to be.

Thrassian Stranglers are going to be used to cheese dungeon speed runs & potentially no death runs. That’s gonna be hilariously awesome.

The speed ring will be great for overworld gathering.

The heavy chest that restores magicka miiiiiight have some PVP applications but will be utterly useless in PvE because Balance is a thing.

The other ones aren’t even being discussed in any capacity. 🤷🏻‍♂️

There are reasons to engage with antiquities that have nothing to do with Trials, as I’ve briefly outlined.

But other than that, this notion that they’re nerfing monster sets to push mythic is incredibly ignorant.

It implies that the monster sets that were adjusted will be dropped.

They won’t be. The adjustments were NOT that severe.

They’ve nerfed items in the past to pave way for newer better items, especially for items behind a pay wall.

Calypso589

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

To get people to farm the mythic item

+1 to the list of people who haven’t actually looked at what mythic items do. Lol

@Olupajmibanan

One thing you maybe don't know about symphony is that it got stealth changed and the cooldown is now tied to receivers (you get meridias boon, you can't get another in 18 seconds from any source), therefore only one symphony actualy can be used in a trial group.

It wasn’t a stealth change. It was there plain as day in week 1 of the PTS patch notes.

I did not however know that the current version could stack on someone, though in order for that to happen the person would have to REALLY be burning through their resources which is probably indicative of bad play.

But like I said, the wider group utility of Symphony is being seen as a buff. It’s a good thing that only 1 support will have to wear it now.

We've looked at the items, but it seems that are nerfing sets just enough to pave the way for alternative build ideas where you're not doing the usual 5/5/2. If the mythic items didn't offer anything too distinctive, and if other sets remained superior, people who only care about end-game wouldn't engage with the antiquity system.

No. Just, no. To imply that nerfs to monster sets are designed to push mythic items is to imply that Mythic Items will serve to fill whatever’s missing

Think about it. What Mythic item is being pushed by Lord Warden being nerfed?

I mean cmon people.

None of those items are going to disrupt 5/5/2 in trials (as far as optimized groups go).


They. Are. Niche. THATS what they’re designed to be.

Thrassian Stranglers are going to be used to cheese dungeon speed runs & potentially no death runs. That’s gonna be hilariously awesome.

The speed ring will be great for overworld gathering.

The heavy chest that restores magicka miiiiiight have some PVP applications but will be utterly useless in PvE because Balance is a thing.

The other ones aren’t even being discussed in any capacity. 🤷🏻‍♂️

There are reasons to engage with antiquities that have nothing to do with Trials, as I’ve briefly outlined.

But other than that, this notion that they’re nerfing monster sets to push mythic is incredibly ignorant.

It implies that the monster sets that were adjusted will be dropped.

They won’t be. The adjustments were NOT that severe.

They’ve nerfed items in the past to pave way for newer better items, especially for items behind a pay wall.

People like you keep running with that conspiracy but it falls apart the moment you look and see how the newer items are not being used at all.

Who do you see running around with Mother Ciannait? lol

Calypso589

JanTanhide wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Calypso589 , doesn't tell me about anything. "I'm the end game community", "butt ton of people" - if that's everything your testing resulted in, then sorry but I'll disregard your opinion.

> Noone runs Bani, my dude.

I think you have comprehension issues. So I'll just point you upwards and say that it's precisely what I said, that nobody runs Bani, but not because it's weak but because you can't proc it when you need the proc. But it seems like you're reading much like you're testing. As in, not very well.

I've used Bani's a few times. Have to be very close to the boss and you are correct. It just doesn't proc as much as I would like. I don't know yet what I will do for Tank sets when Greymoor goes Live but I can say I won't be pugging Vet DLC dungeons anymore on my Tanks. Not till I figure out a new setup that works well.

I wouldn't advise pugging vDLC dungeons at all.

But, the only setup the tank should need is Yolnahkriin, Alkosh, Symphony of Blades.

But if you need a bit of selfishness, you can run Vykosa and procc it in anticipation of something heavy hitting.

You can also run Olorime instead of Alkosh, front bar Defensive Position and wear Yolnahkriin on the body with Symphony.

Honestly, what the tank wears is an easy question.

It's all about whether your group is bad or not.

satanio

Calypso589 wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

Potentates?

Why?

PvP? Certainly not for PvE.

This one is on me since I suggest this setup. You just need a little bit of imagination to understand. Alkosh is and can be easily only slotted on one bar, therefore, your back bar is free and you can slap something more useful there like Alkosh's 129 WD and a debuff that is already active from the front bar. Potentates comes in handy, (if you cannot proc Bloodspawn effectively, which will be quite often after the nerfs). In conclusion, you'll get useless pvp dmg reduction (that is as useful as 129 WD) and 15% ulti reduce on Horn (from 250 -> 212). However, there is one free slot in this setup. I personaly used 1 piece 129 mag recovery, but after 6.0.0 Bloodlord's embrace will be better choice, if you need the mag recovery.

If anything is unclear keep asking questions.

I do have a question.

Why are you bending over backwards to slot in Bloodlord's embrace just to have it leave you with a random open slot, a dead PvP stat, and an overall setup that's so jank the chances of you being able to effectively modify it to fit the needs of the fight and your team is extremely small?

Why you doing all that?

I've got a better setup for ya.

Front Bar: Defensive Position (Asylum Sanctorium)
Back Bar: Alkosh staff/Jewels.
Body: Yolnahkriin
Monster Set: Symphony of Blades

Voila! No token slots, easily adjustable to fit the group's needs and possesses more magicka return than that Mythic Chest can ever give you in it's current form.

Why?

Because Defensive Position restores 1818 magicka when you absorb a projectile OR it restores 3636 magicka if nothing is absorbed. Best part is it'll still work even after you cast Defensive Stance and swap to your back bar.

That's a biiiit more than Bloodlord's Embrace, ain't it? And it doesn't require you to hold block which is also great since so many fights will leave you dead on the floor if you're permablocking through them. Not blocking for Magicka also means you're saving a great deal on stamina too which allows you to do other important things like dodging and stuff. /shrug

Not to mention there's the fact that Defensive Postion's time spent for magicka earned is completely static. I don't have to stand and wait for an enemy to attack me to get magicka back.

And once again, the skill Balance is a thing.

Balance = infinite magicka AND a major buff.

So what do you lose with my setup?

15% ultimate cost reduction.

Is that bad?

Nope. Heroic Slash should already be on your bar to do both the job of maiming and restoring ultimate to you through Minor Heroism.

Potions can do that too.

Having Warhorn up a few seconds faster with Potentates isn't worth the jankiness that's necessary to make it happen.

So to reiterate, there aren't really any situations where Bloodlord's Embrace is going to be used in PvE. It's outclassed by both a single skill and a 2 piece set and that 2 piece set is a lot easier to slot in and for more magicka return too.

You have completely ignored anything I have written about the PvP stat and lack either the imagination, the will or the wit to understand that the 4th bonus stat on the back bar is not important.
I'm also pleased that you are firmly convinced that this setup is junk and cannot be effectively modified to fit the needs of the fight and the team. This shows that you do not know what you are talking about but I will enlighten you:
Basic MT setup: Alkosh SnB + 2 jwc + belt, potentates Ice staff on the back + 1 jwc, 5x Yoln body, 1x Monster piece of a choice
You can swap Yoln for Tava on AS+2 and heavy dodge rolling fights. If the group does not feel like Alkosh (only one synergy available, tank fails to keep good uptime), one can swap alkosh for yoln and put on Ebon or any other heavy set. For trash, Dragons defilement can be either swapped with Yoln or Alkosh. However, if the group sustain is the issue, changing alkosh for worm/hircine makes this setup slightly less effective (because of bar swaps). If any specific monster set (Lord Warden, Symphony, Earthgore) is needed, this setup cannot be used.

I know AS setup, using it on Lokke HM, but theres Dragon on my back bar. Alkosh on back bar is a self torture. AS shield cannot be used effectively to gain magicka, since Defensive Posture is very expensive stamina skill and well, tank without any stamina is a dead tank. Mythic chest gives you over a thousand magicka per second (if the target attacks every second), but since we know bosses need more time than that, lets assume its 500 magicka per second - that is still one of the best sustain set bonuses in game.

Balance is a thing. Nobody says anything against or about balance.

And what does 15% ulti reduction have with Minor Heroism is beyond my comprehension, these are two completely different effects each doing its own thing.
Having Major Force or Necro Atro up a few seconds (8 seconds to be precise) faster with Potentates is exactly what is worth, having extra bonus sustain with Bloodlord's Embrace, or 129 mag recovery on top of that is just cherry on the top of the cake.

Potential of Potentates was already big enough for the tanks last patch and with BLOODSPAWN nerfs (that is why I suggest this setup, as a substitution for ultigen setups) this setup will be even stronger.Using any 1 piece with this setup is just a bonus, and I'll repeat myself, Bloodlord's Embrace is one of the best, if not best, sustain set bonus there is for a tank.

So to reiterate, any sustain set is outclassed by Balance, but Bloodlord's Embrace seems to be the best one of them if tank blocks incoming damage at least once per 2-3 seconds.

Kidgangster101

Calypso589 wrote: »

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

To get people to farm the mythic item

+1 to the list of people who haven’t actually looked at what mythic items do. Lol

@Olupajmibanan

One thing you maybe don't know about symphony is that it got stealth changed and the cooldown is now tied to receivers (you get meridias boon, you can't get another in 18 seconds from any source), therefore only one symphony actualy can be used in a trial group.

It wasn’t a stealth change. It was there plain as day in week 1 of the PTS patch notes.

I did not however know that the current version could stack on someone, though in order for that to happen the person would have to REALLY be burning through their resources which is probably indicative of bad play.

But like I said, the wider group utility of Symphony is being seen as a buff. It’s a good thing that only 1 support will have to wear it now.

We've looked at the items, but it seems that are nerfing sets just enough to pave the way for alternative build ideas where you're not doing the usual 5/5/2. If the mythic items didn't offer anything too distinctive, and if other sets remained superior, people who only care about end-game wouldn't engage with the antiquity system.

No. Just, no. To imply that nerfs to monster sets are designed to push mythic items is to imply that Mythic Items will serve to fill whatever’s missing

Think about it. What Mythic item is being pushed by Lord Warden being nerfed?

I mean cmon people.

None of those items are going to disrupt 5/5/2 in trials (as far as optimized groups go).


They. Are. Niche. THATS what they’re designed to be.

Thrassian Stranglers are going to be used to cheese dungeon speed runs & potentially no death runs. That’s gonna be hilariously awesome.

The speed ring will be great for overworld gathering.

The heavy chest that restores magicka miiiiiight have some PVP applications but will be utterly useless in PvE because Balance is a thing.

The other ones aren’t even being discussed in any capacity. 🤷🏻‍♂️

There are reasons to engage with antiquities that have nothing to do with Trials, as I’ve briefly outlined.

But other than that, this notion that they’re nerfing monster sets to push mythic is incredibly ignorant.

It implies that the monster sets that were adjusted will be dropped.

They won’t be. The adjustments were NOT that severe.

They’ve nerfed items in the past to pave way for newer better items, especially for items behind a pay wall.

People like you keep running with that conspiracy but it falls apart the moment you look and see how the newer items are not being used at all.

Who do you see running around with Mother Ciannait? lol

People like you are why they attempt things like this because the person you quoted isn't wrong. The devs tried to make it so you always need to buy the newest thing. The problem is they just are terrible at balancing their own game that their attempt actually fails.

But it is the ATTEMPT that they do. And people like you always white knight their decision making. People like you is why they make sure the crown store is fixed meanwhile most other things in the game are broken.

Just look at this patch (they Nerf impen trait) and yet the base crit still isn't working when this is about to go live. What does that mean? It most likely is going to be added to the list of things that should have been fixed on pts before it went live but yet it doesn't. But hey those new crown items coming out won't be bugged right?

Calypso589

@satanio You have completely ignored anything I have written about the PvP stat and lack either the imagination

Lack of imagination isn't the problem.

You're using too much imagination. You're theory-crafting a setup that's predicated on the idea that a tank needs any of the extra sets you're talking about.

They don't.

At all.

You can swap Yoln for Tava on AS+2 and heavy dodge rolling fights.

You don't need Tava. Don't use Tava.

Ever.

For trash, Dragons defilement can be either swapped with Yoln or Alkosh

Or you can wear both Dragon's Defilement and Alkosh for trash and not over-complicate things.

However, if the group sustain is the issue, changing alkosh for worm/hircine makes this setup slightly less effective (because of bar swaps)

That right there is reason #1 why your setup will never be used.

Because between 2 tanks, there's no reason that both Alkosh and Worm/Hircine can't be represented.

In dungeons, sustain shouldn't be an issue and Alkosh is still best choice.

If any specific monster set (Lord Warden, Symphony, Earthgore) is needed, this setup cannot be used.

And that, is reason #2 why your setup won't ever be used.

AS shield cannot be used effectively to gain magicka, since Defensive Posture is very expensive stamina skill and well, tank without any stamina is a dead tank.

I mean, if your ONLY source of magicka regen is the asylum sword/board then you would have an argument.

But Defensive Position is worn to work in tandem with your magicka regen and with Balance.

If you're spamming Defensive Posture for the sake of magicka regen, then you're playing really poorly. Defensive Position is simply meant to serve as extra resources and those resources are earned without thinking about it and without having to create a goofy setup around it.

Balance is a thing. Nobody says anything against or about balance.

Well you probably should talk about Balance because it's the single skill that renders Bloodlord's Embrace completely irrelevant in PvE.

Every serious endgame tank should be using that skill. There's no reason not to.

Does Bloodlord's Embrace restore 3000 magicka on block?

Does Bloodlord's Embrace grant me a Major buff?

The numbers are higher and and it provides a buff. This ought to be a no brainer.

And what does 15% ulti reduction have with Minor Heroism is beyond my comprehension, these are two completely different effects each doing its own thing.

That's because you misunderstood what I said.

I was saying that you don't need the 15% ultimate reduction from Potentates because Minor Heroism from heroic slash or potions is all you need.

Of course they're two different things but one is useful while the other leaves you with a dead stat for no other reason than so you can make room for a mythic body piece that itself is outclassed by a single skill.

Potential of Potentates was already big enough for the tanks last patch

Is that why so many tanks ran it?

rolls eyes

So to reiterate, any sustain set is outclassed by Balance, but Bloodlord's Embrace seems to be the best one of them if tank blocks incoming damage at least once per 2-3 seconds.

Yeah but just......why though? lol

Ulti-gen setups are fun I guess in low stakes 4 mans but when it comes down to brass tacks, it's horribly inefficient.

There are existing systems in place in Trials to maximize Major Force and Colossus uptimes.

If the 15% ultimate cost reduction was a major player in that, then that's what we'd see a lot of right?

But we don't.

Because it's NOT a major factor. You don't need it in PvE.

In PvE, Balance wins.

You will not ever need Bloodlord.

Your group will never need Bloodlord.

I'm sorry.

It's a fun gimmick I'll give it that, but it's totally unnecessary when it comes time to work.

Calypso589

@Kidgangster101 The devs tried to make it so you always need to buy the newest thing. The problem is they just are terrible at balancing their own game that their attempt actually fails.

I'm not sure I have enough yard markers. You keep moving the goal posts.

But it is the ATTEMPT that they do. And people like you always white knight their decision making. People like you is why they make sure the crown store is fixed meanwhile most other things in the game are broken.

And you are going to be *checks notes* enraged gamer #2256 to whom it must be explained that the people who work on combat development and balancing are not the same people who work on what goes into the Crown Store.

It most likely is going to be added to the list of things that should have been fixed on pts before it went live but yet it doesn't. But hey those new crown items coming out won't be bugged right?

Again, two different groups of people with two different jobs.

I'm critical of their balance patches as well.

But i'm also not stupid. /shrug

Leave the tinfoil hat at home, Mr. Gangster.

Ragnaroek93

It's completely ridiculous that Grundwuld and Bloodspawn gets trashed and Zaan gets buffed tbh.

MartiniDaniels

I knew that bloodspawn, troll king and thurvokun nerfs are incoming, but grundwulf... really? When you get non-meta set and playing and having fun with it (of course golden and transmuted) and then ZOS just nukes it for no reason.... really, this removes any wish to do any custom builds. You spent so much effort to make something unique to work and then it is just destroyed, despite barely anybody used it.
It is like nerf to empowering chains. N-O-B-O-D-Y uses empowering chains, that ability needs a buff. ZOS: the only class change in a patch and it is nerf to DK's least used ability
(facepalm picture)

satanio

Calypso589 wrote: »

@satanio You have completely ignored anything I have written about the PvP stat and lack either the imagination

Lack of imagination isn't the problem.

You're using too much imagination. You're theory-crafting a setup that's predicated on the idea that a tank needs any of the extra sets you're talking about.

They don't.

At all.

I've succesfully used this setup, it is not "theorycrafted". Tanks don't need it, since as we both know, tanks wear what group needs. More Major Force/Atros is one of the thing that the party may need. So, case closed.

You can swap Yoln for Tava on AS+2 and heavy dodge rolling fights.

You don't need Tava. Don't use Tava.

Ever.

Seems like lack of actual experience with the set on your side. Tava is the best ultigen set in ESO, saying "don't use it" is foolish. Try it on mentioned AS+2.

Or you can wear both Dragon's Defilement and Alkosh for trash and not over-complicate things.

How many alkoshes or Dragon defilements does the group need? 12?
Ye, effective set distribution matters.

However, if the group sustain is the issue, changing alkosh for worm/hircine makes this setup slightly less effective (because of bar swaps)

That right there is reason #1 why your setup will never be used.

Because between 2 tanks, there's no reason that both Alkosh and Worm/Hircine can't be represented.

Representation of MagDD vs StamDD? Wearing Hircine in party full of magsorcs, magdks and magnbs seems like a good idea. Really useful, the amount of stamina it saves for their dodges...
I'll use your writing style...
Think.
Or don't... I will help you.

In dungeons, sustain shouldn't be an issue and Alkosh is still best choice.

And? The punchline for this one is?

If any specific monster set (Lord Warden, Symphony, Earthgore) is needed, this setup cannot be used.

And that, is reason #2 why your setup won't ever be used.

So, you are saying, that Bloodspawn wasn't ever used by PvE tanks right? Warden and Earthgore are both situational. Symphony was ok, but since the stealth nerf -> only one in a group. That leaves us with 3 free monster sets slots for supports. One will probably be Rkugamz or Troll King (situational). So what the tanks wear when party does not need Earthgore or Warden? Bloodspawn may be worth if tanking pack of adds, but 4% chance to gain 8 ulti on 5 sec coldown. Even if it procs on coldown (very low chance) - it's 6 sec faster than 15% ulti reduce. So choosing Potentates instead of Bloodspawn is choosing the consistency and certainty.

I mean, if your ONLY source of magicka regen is the asylum sword/board then you would have an argument.

But Defensive Position is worn to work in tandem with your magicka regen and with Balance.

Why do you need AS SnB and Balance? You mentioned that Balance is endless resources...so why gimping the tank with the set that the group really does not need. I mean, yes, if the tank struggles with his magicka and can't survive because of that...but maybe that tank should stop using balance in the first place.

If you're spamming Defensive Posture for the sake of magicka regen, then you're playing really poorly. Defensive Position is simply meant to serve as extra resources and those resources are earned without thinking about it and without having to create a goofy setup around it.

And that is why AS SnB isn't used. Because there is only one instance of frequent Defensive Posture usage, and that is Lokkestiz in vSS non-HM or HM. Having AS SnB and Alkosh on back bar is like checking what is stuck inside your loaded gun up close with your own eye. Very dangerous, but that is your choice.

Well you probably should talk about Balance because it's the single skill that renders Bloodlord's Embrace completely irrelevant in PvE.

Every serious endgame tank should be using that skill. There's no reason not to.

Does Bloodlord's Embrace restore 3000 magicka on block?

Does Bloodlord's Embrace grant me a Major buff?

The numbers are higher and and it provides a buff. This ought to be a no brainer.

Ah, ok. So that is why for example these people use Stonekeeper.
https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/12#boss=44&class=DragonKnight&spec=Tank&search=1.1.-1|abilities.116880

Just check the link. And talk to those that are not using it, all of them should use balance. They have absolutely no reason to not use it. Maybe, except, the healing debuff that may not fit in some encounters.

That's because you misunderstood what I said.

I was saying that you don't need the 15% ultimate reduction from Potentates because Minor Heroism from heroic slash or potions is all you need.

Of course they're two different things but one is useful while the other leaves you with a dead stat for no other reason than so you can make room for a mythic body piece that itself is outclassed by a single skill.

You're still not understanding that the "dead stat" is completely irrelevant, since all of alkosh stats except the last one are dead stats, are you? Here we are, wearing Alkosh.

Potential of Potentates was already big enough for the tanks last patch

Is that why so many tanks ran it?

If something has potential, it does not mean it is meta or every tank has to use it. Your reading comprehension is outstanding.

Ulti-gen setups are fun I guess in low stakes 4 mans but when it comes down to brass tacks, it's horribly inefficient.

There are existing systems in place in Trials to maximize Major Force and Colossus uptimes.

If the 15% ultimate cost reduction was a major player in that, then that's what we'd see a lot of right?

But we don't.

Because it's NOT a major factor. You don't need it in PvE.

In PvE, Balance wins.

You will not ever need Bloodlord.

Your group will never need Bloodlord.

I'm sorry.

It's a fun gimmick I'll give it that, but it's totally unnecessary when it comes time to work.

Usage of ulti sets in an end-game PvE environment is as valid as any other. I don't know what your endgame is, but from trial HM to trifecta progression, it has its use. I don't know what "systems" you're talking about, but I think you meant addons. These however does not count with ocassional Barrier casts or any other ulti.
15% reduce from potentates is as valid as nerfed Bloodspawn.
Again, does tanks use Bloodspawn? Yes they do.
Why do they use it? Because if sustain is not an issue, defense is not an issue, burst heal is not an issue, the best thing that any tank can do is enhance his ulti uptime.

I've made my points regarding Balance, I have nothing against it. It's a skill.
Not a set.

However, if tank, therefore his group (dead tank = not good), needs some more resources (the link mentioned earlier), Bloodlord's Embrace is one of the best, if not the best, thing he can wear. Or if he wears potentates on the back bar.

Nothing more, nothing less.