Pre-programmed Macros for the win! Why it seems that macros are not monitored by anti-cheat engines?

DracoSaggitaExSole

Dear ZOS!

The Elder Scrolls Online is my beloved game, I got the collectors edition with the Molag Bal statue on launch. I spent so many fun hours, days weeks in the game, so many good times and pleasant moments, along with challenging ones that taught me to become a better player. Thank you for creating this wonderful world to escape in, and indulge.

One of my favorite activities in Tamriel is head to Cyrodill and wage a never ending war, go against other players and compete. I spent countless hours honing my skills, learn animation canceling, find improvements in my gear sets, finding the right skills to use and so on.

I got to a place where I feel that I am not just a target dummy, and I can be decent challenger to oppose my foes, until I face a a few certain type of players...

These players when fought against appear to be in god tier, no mater how hard I trained my muscles I just cant possibly replicate the speed of their attacks, And I die in a blink of an eye.

Looking at the recap, of the moment of my demise, and I see what I feared. 3-4 different skills where executed by my opponent, the very same player within a second. That feat can I believe can only by accomplished by macros, a pre-programmed set of keystrokes executed by a software in a very short time interval.

This should be, in my opinion, easy to spot for a anti-cheat engine, exactly do to their nature. Lets say if a player execute skills in short amount of time with say 100 ms delay, the combat log should say that, and because the macro is always executing the same line, its should provide a pattern. A human cant replicate that, even if the players is fast, it would show 101 ms, a 99 ms, a 110 ms and so on, the point is that it would never be the same in the scope of milliseconds. It would not provide the same combat log patterns as the macros.

In the age of deep learning, and AI pattern recognition should not be a challenge anymore. And we would not see the same players over and over obliterating groups of enemy players with the same pre-programed execute macros, and PvP in Cyrodill would be more about honed skills, quick thinking and good tactics.

I know its its possible, I would like to see it happen in my beloved world of Tamriel.

Best regards, and thank for creating a world of wonders!

D3N7157

You can’t monitor macros that are built in mouse or keyboard or any other external input device, they generate the input at same level as the player would so it’s not possible to distinguish it.

daemonios

You can, in theory, use macros to execute sequences of light attacks and skills immediately following each other. But the game has a global cooldown between light attacks and skills. You simply can't light attack more often than once per second, and you can't use more than one skill per second. I have little doubt that some players so use macros, but I don't think they can do what you describe through using them.

The death recap also doesn't tell you the whole story, namely the exact timing of the skills that hit you. It just shows you the sequence of the last skills that hit you before you.

I'm no expert and can very well be wrong, but your claims of macros bypassing hard coded game mechanics seem implausible.

daemonios

D3N7157 wrote: »

You can’t monitor macros that are built in mouse or keyboard or any other external input device, they generate the input at same level as the player would so it’s not possible to distinguish it.

You may not be able to detect the software used, but I think what OP was talking about was analysing the "believability" of inputs being generated by a player vs. a macro. Players would be much less precise and consistent than macros.

That said, I'm not sure macros are that big a deal, as they wouldn't be able to bypass global cooldown. About the only situation where I see a macro being effective is for ganking, by looking up a series of attacks and hoping the target dies before being able to react.

bmnoble

Probably already been killed by a combination of lag/desync, server says your dead but your client has not caught up or vice versa, ends up showing all the skills appearing to fire at once on the death re cap.

With performance in PVP being as bad as it it doubt a macro can get around skills not firing until 3 button presses later etc.

D3N7157

daemonios wrote: »

D3N7157 wrote: »

You can’t monitor macros that are built in mouse or keyboard or any other external input device, they generate the input at same level as the player would so it’s not possible to distinguish it.

You may not be able to detect the software used, but I think what OP was talking about was analysing the "believability" of inputs being generated by a player vs. a macro. Players would be much less precise and consistent than macros.

That said, I'm not sure macros are that big a deal, as they wouldn't be able to bypass global cooldown. About the only situation where I see a macro being effective is for ganking, by looking up a series of attacks and hoping the target dies before being able to react.

Great idea let’s put even more strain on already struggling servers that can’t handle basic in game calculations. Not going to happen unfortunately, it’s not a 6v6 shooter game it’s a mmo with massive 50v50v50 PvP battles.

Also you would be surprised how many endgame players use MMO oriented hardware like Razor Naga mouse series with 12 side buttons, with so many customizable input options it’s really easy to become just as efficient as a macro user and have more control over your inputs. Don’t underestimate a nerd with 20 mouse buttons and years worth of muscle memory 😂

Foto1

abilities cannot fire every 100ms. there is a GCD equal to 1 second. not to get around it. Before writing about this, you should familiarize yourself with the basic mechanics of the game

D3N7157

More over with current lag and terrible server conditions setting a macro for each skill to press 5x every 0,05s is not a bad idea. Only need to press once at least...

VaranisArano

Perhaps try taking screenshots of your death recaps with timestamps to send to ZOS as part of a report on those players.

If you don't have the timestamps, it's very hard for us on the forums to tell exactly what's going on. The base game death recap is especially lacking in info and its very easy for personal perception of battles to be skewed by lag.

Moreover, macros do not allow skills to bypass the Global Cooldown. If you are seeing skills appear to bypass the GCD, its probably lag. I know I've been hit with five cliff racers at the same time from the same player, but given that I was experiencing extremely delayed movement at the time, I chalk that death up to the lag.

SosRuvaak

how else are you going to get your ability to go off if you dont set a macro to spam the button when pressed?

D3N7157

I have read the OP again and I’m pretty sure he’s unaware of the GCD mechanic existence in this game, nothing to discuss here another “this player hit me with 5 skills in 1 second thread but I have no clue how the game works though” thread. Not the first one and not the last one either.

Taylor_MB

Teacher Taylor here, classroom now in session.

1) Do not use your death recap as an informative or accurate source of information, it is neither of those things. It often misses out high damage attacks, frequently miss labels the killing blow, and most importantly doesn't have a time stamp. A combat log addon is the only way to get accurate information.

2) The Global Cool Down (GCD)
GCD is 0.95 seconds, this cannot be bypassed by Macros or even Cheat Engine as this is 100% handled server side. This limits how fast players can pull off attacks, making it impossible to get hit directly with "3-4 different skills" instantly (outside of lag or desyncs). The below actions can be performed in 1 GCD.
- Light or medium attack (or finish a heavy attack)
- Skill
- Bash
- Dodge roll
Majority of the time you'll only be seeing LA and skill, 2 actions per GCD is easily achievable for almost all players.

3) It IS possible to hit your opponent with 3-4 attacks/skills within 1 GCD, but not trigger multiple skills, this often causes confusion for newer PvP'ers. The best way to kill opponents in PvP is to have layered damage, with lots of things going off at once. For example-
- Light attack
- Direct damage skill
- Delayed damage skill
- Damage over time skill
- Proc Set
- Enchantment
- Bash
- Pet damage
All of the above hitting within the same GCD is perfectly reasonable.

4) Anti-cheat detecting macros
Macros have random variance built into them specifically to bypass these checks (not that it helps in ESO anyway).

Class may now ask questions .

D3N7157

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Teacher Taylor here, classroom now in session.

1) Do not use your death recap as an informative or accurate source of information, it is neither of those things. It often misses out high damage attacks, frequently miss labels the killing blow, and most importantly doesn't have a time stamp. A combat log addon is the only way to get accurate information.

2) The Global Cool Down (GCD)
GCD is 0.95 seconds, this cannot be bypassed by Macros or even Cheat Engine as this is 100% handled server side. This limits how fast players can pull off attacks, making it impossible to get hit directly with "3-4 different skills" instantly (outside of lag or desyncs). The below actions can be performed in 1 GCD.
- Light or medium attack (or finish a heavy attack)
- Skill
- Bash
- Dodge roll
Majority of the time you'll only be seeing LA and skill, 2 actions per GCD is easily achievable for almost all players.

3) It IS possible to hit your opponent with 3-4 attacks/skills within 1 GCD, but not trigger multiple skills, this often causes confusion for newer PvP'ers. The best way to kill opponents in PvP is to have layered damage, with lots of things going off at once. For example-
- Light attack
- Direct damage skill
- Delayed damage skill
- Damage over time skill
- Proc Set
- Enchantment
- Bash
- Pet damage
All of the above hitting within the same GCD is perfectly reasonable.

4) Anti-cheat detecting macros
Macros have random variance built into them specifically to bypass these checks (not that it helps in ESO anyway).

Class may now ask questions .

Mr Taylor can I go to the toilet pls?

Taylor_MB

D3N7157 wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Teacher Taylor here, classroom now in session.

1) Do not use your death recap as an informative or accurate source of information, it is neither of those things. It often misses out high damage attacks, frequently miss labels the killing blow, and most importantly doesn't have a time stamp. A combat log addon is the only way to get accurate information.

2) The Global Cool Down (GCD)
GCD is 0.95 seconds, this cannot be bypassed by Macros or even Cheat Engine as this is 100% handled server side. This limits how fast players can pull off attacks, making it impossible to get hit directly with "3-4 different skills" instantly (outside of lag or desyncs). The below actions can be performed in 1 GCD.
- Light or medium attack (or finish a heavy attack)
- Skill
- Bash
- Dodge roll
Majority of the time you'll only be seeing LA and skill, 2 actions per GCD is easily achievable for almost all players.

3) It IS possible to hit your opponent with 3-4 attacks/skills within 1 GCD, but not trigger multiple skills, this often causes confusion for newer PvP'ers. The best way to kill opponents in PvP is to have layered damage, with lots of things going off at once. For example-
- Light attack
- Direct damage skill
- Delayed damage skill
- Damage over time skill
- Proc Set
- Enchantment
- Bash
- Pet damage
All of the above hitting within the same GCD is perfectly reasonable.

4) Anti-cheat detecting macros
Macros have random variance built into them specifically to bypass these checks (not that it helps in ESO anyway).

Class may now ask questions .

Mr Taylor can I go to the toilet pls?

Yes @D3N7157 , I don't want a repeat of what happened last time I asked "can you wait until recess"

L_Nici

Well: Dswing -> Heavy -> Execute -> Blockbash that are 4 damage sources you can easily cast in 1 second. For wardens and Necros a 5th source is possible by timing the bugs and Blastbones onto the execute.

Firstmep

Global Cooldown, look it up op. Using macro to execute multiple skills wont give you any advantage beacuse of it.

The pvp meta has always been about burst, so stick as many high damage sources into 1 gcd has always been a good idea.

Enchants, light/heavy attack/ability/bash can all go off at the same time. There are also delayed skills like shalks balstbones etc.

Ill be honest, cheating is not nearly as rampant as bad/new players seem to think.

technohic

Crap! All that time honing skills and never learning about the GCD and delayed burst! Back to the drawing board.

SpiderCultist

truth is "pro" players use macros

and truth always [snip] hurts

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

Thogard

SpiderCultist wrote: »

truth is "pro" players use macros

and truth always [snip]hurts

Eh I’ve spent plenty of time dueling those pro players and have beat many of them and I don’t use macros. I’ve even streamed with a hand cam on to prove it.

The real truth is that mediocre players prefer to blame a phantom that doesn’t exist rather than face the realization that they’re mediocre. The real shame is that if they acknowledged that they were mediocre then they might be willing to learn how to improve. Sadly, their ego gets in the way.

F

SpiderCultist

@Thogard I have nothing else to add to my previoius comment for you but I'd also like to add:

The thing is I don't hear too many keystrokes on "pro" streams, just one if anything and there's always the same combo

GCD variable lecturers are full of...

But if anything positive out of this lag festival that has become Cyrodiil we can come up with is it bothers macroers the most, who ironically are the most fervent PVPers out there.

For your F my F.

ItsJustHashtag

May I ask what class this alleged macro user was on?

The_Camper

SpiderCultist wrote: »

@Thogard I have nothing else to add to my previoius comment for you but I'd also like to add:

The thing is I don't hear too many keystrokes on "pro" streams, just one if anything and there's always the same combo

GCD variable lecturers are full of...

But if anything positive out of this lag festival that has become Cyrodiil we can come up with is it bothers macroers the most, who ironically are the most fervent PVPers out there.

For your F my F.

spotted the zergling guys!

SpiderCultist

I don't understand why some of you take the hint, but I bet 100% you use gaming KBs and mice, not just cheap plugnplay devices

anyway, yeah MACROs are as old as the game is, you just have to use google and compare dates, this game was released on 2014

EDIT: And I'll repeat:

SpiderCultist wrote: »

truth is "pro" players use macros

and truth always [snip]hurts

technohic

SpiderCultist wrote: »

I don't understand why some of you take the hint, but I bet 100% you use gaming KBs and mice, not just cheap plugnplay devices

anyway, yeah MACROs are as old as the game is, you just have to use google and compare dates, this game was released on 2014

Yeah, Im not sure using a good keyboard and mouse means macroing. I use a generic keyboard because the fiance has some issue with clicking noises, and I make a LOT of clicking noises when playing because, well; no macros means I have to push the buttons. A mouse with at least 6 buttons on the side is nice for me but I prefer 12 as my binds are 1-6 for bar and ultimate then 7 and 8 for bar selected. Its really easy but not macroing. Im not a pro gamer though; but the difference to me is going to be they hit buttons with purpose more often. I often am just mashing away trying to keep my buffs up and getting back on offense


You are trying to justify a skill gap with baseless claims

JTorus

Thogard wrote: »

SpiderCultist wrote: »

truth is "pro" players use macros

and truth always (butt)hurts

Eh I’ve spent plenty of time dueling those pro players and have beat many of them and I don’t use macros. I’ve even streamed with a hand cam on to prove it.

The real truth is that mediocre players prefer to blame a phantom that doesn’t exist rather than face the realization that they’re mediocre. The real shame is that if they acknowledged that they were mediocre then they might be willing to learn how to improve. Sadly, their ego gets in the way.

F

I've seen your hand videos.
You're fooling no one.

JanTanhide

Not possible. I have heard this for over 5 years of game play. It just is not feasible and it won't work for the player using it if they are. And let's not forget about the Global Cooldowns.

So many situations appear in the game that a pre programmed sequence of skills is not going to keep your character alive.

I was accused of cheating long ago because I could do something (clear a dungeon) that another player could not do. Really? "I have all the best gear in the game! I have Trial gear! There is no way you can be better than me!" He screamed.

That was when I first heard of Macros and Cheat Engine since this person accused me of using them. There are really great players out there and some live close to the Server where their Latency is 50ms to 80ms. That makes a big difference!

Ghnami

No one has mentioned the most likely true cause of this, LAG/DELAY/DESYNC

daim

D3N7157 wrote: »

You can’t monitor macros that are built in mouse or keyboard or any other external input device, they generate the input at same level as the player would so it’s not possible to distinguish it.

Not so sure about that as you can adjust the timing manually between the strokes, macros are recorded and then fine tuned. However like some people mentioned there is a delay in the game between actions that can't be ignored. Unless someone figured out the way to hack it, which is always a possibility too I guess.

Attackopsn

A macro wouldn’t even be reliable in a game like this. It’s so manageable to time things within the gcd, but simultaneously so many things vary and depend on timing that a macro would often just cause you to not even attack anything due to your crosshair being moved by something, the target moving etc.

The few times this game has had real cheating problems it was super obvious, namely back when cheat engine happened and the client to server relationship was completely different.

I hope this helps 😇

Bucky_13

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Teacher Taylor here, classroom now in session.

1) Do not use your death recap as an informative or accurate source of information, it is neither of those things. It often misses out high damage attacks, frequently miss labels the killing blow, and most importantly doesn't have a time stamp. A combat log addon is the only way to get accurate information.

2) The Global Cool Down (GCD)
GCD is 0.95 seconds, this cannot be bypassed by Macros or even Cheat Engine as this is 100% handled server side. This limits how fast players can pull off attacks, making it impossible to get hit directly with "3-4 different skills" instantly (outside of lag or desyncs). The below actions can be performed in 1 GCD.
- Light or medium attack (or finish a heavy attack)
- Skill
- Bash
- Dodge roll
Majority of the time you'll only be seeing LA and skill, 2 actions per GCD is easily achievable for almost all players.

3) It IS possible to hit your opponent with 3-4 attacks/skills within 1 GCD, but not trigger multiple skills, this often causes confusion for newer PvP'ers. The best way to kill opponents in PvP is to have layered damage, with lots of things going off at once. For example-
- Light attack
- Direct damage skill
- Delayed damage skill
- Damage over time skill
- Proc Set
- Enchantment
- Bash
- Pet damage
All of the above hitting within the same GCD is perfectly reasonable.

4) Anti-cheat detecting macros
Macros have random variance built into them specifically to bypass these checks (not that it helps in ESO anyway).

Class may now ask questions .

Could you go into detail about the effects of lag and desync as well? ;-)

As far as the OP goes. When I hit snipe and it keeps not getting off, I tend to hit the button again, then add a few other skills plus a light attack while it's channeling. Then after 6+ seconds, on my screen it looks like all those skills hit at the same time, often with someone dying as a result. This is not me using a macro or being super duper pro at PvP (I've got a lot to improve on), this is just the server being crap and me getting a cheap kill because of bad performance.

I've also died in this manner myself several times, similar to what the OP describes. However, I don't call those players cheaters or macro users because they most likely aren't. I recognize that performance in Cyro is really really bad, and they got a cheap kill, thus congrats to them for the AP. It's not the players who are at fault, it's ZOS for delivering a subpar perforing game.

The messed up thing with Cyro in these situations is that, much like animation canceling, you adapt to what you can do with your keyboard and mouse (or controller I guess). Which means that certain skills for some reason seems to work all the time, some rarely works at all, like a lot of ults. Meanwhile, other skills like snipe can get you stuck in a never-ending cast, or result in an insane amount of damage simultaneously that shouldn't be possible to do, and isn't in areas with acceptable performance.

I very much prefer my PvP to be lag free since that combat relies more on skill compared to Cyro at its worst, where it's more a case of using the right skills.

Firstmep

I dont understand the whole ego trip some people have over losing in pvp. It will happen. To everyone.

That doesnt mean your opponent is automatically a cheater.

I feel like a broken record, but here it goes anyway:

You cannot bypass the global cooldown, all combat calculations are done server side, you can pre-program a keyboard or mouse to press buttons for you at the same time, still only 1 ability will register. Its literally hardcoded into the game.

Between delayed burst attacks, lag etc. there are a lot of ways it might seem like you are getting hit by multiple abilities that were fired off at the same time.

I wouldnt even trust combat logs, beacuse delays between the server and clients do happen, and it could seem like you were hit at the same time.

I really recommend people who think macroing is viable to actually try doing it themselves, go ahead, see what happens.