Pre-programmed Macros for the win! Why it seems that macros are not monitored by anti-cheat engines?

SpiderCultist

@ OP

ppl using macros also get banned, I've met a bunch of self-acknowledged macroers bragging on discord

don't overthink about it and keep playing, that's my advice

oh, but don't turn the other cheek to get slapped again and again, if you're completely sure someone is MACROing, report him and luckily he'll get checked out

Regards everyone!

Maxx7410

yes there are cheaters in the game

robertthebard

SpiderCultist wrote: »

@Thogard I have nothing else to add to my previoius comment for you but I'd also like to add:

The thing is I don't hear too many keystrokes on "pro" streams, just one if anything and there's always the same combo

GCD variable lecturers are full of...

But if anything positive out of this lag festival that has become Cyrodiil we can come up with is it bothers macroers the most, who ironically are the most fervent PVPers out there.

For your F my F.

So I'm curious: All of my keystrokes sound exactly the same when I'm typing, or gaming. There's no difference between the A, a, 1 or ! strokes, so what is it that you're basing your "same combo" on? A rotation? Rotations don't require macros to use.

SpiderCultist

robertthebard wrote: »

SpiderCultist wrote: »

@Thogard I have nothing else to add to my previoius comment for you but I'd also like to add:

The thing is I don't hear too many keystrokes on "pro" streams, just one if anything and there's always the same combo

GCD variable lecturers are full of...

But if anything positive out of this lag festival that has become Cyrodiil we can come up with is it bothers macroers the most, who ironically are the most fervent PVPers out there.

For your F my F.

So I'm curious: All of my keystrokes sound exactly the same when I'm typing, or gaming. There's no difference between the A, a, 1 or ! strokes, so what is it that you're basing your "same combo" on? A rotation? Rotations don't require macros to use.

1 keystroke != 1 combo

if I press "1", first skill gets fired off but for someone using a macro that could mean: I press "1" (or other key), light/heavy attack + first skill + blockbashed + whatanot (other skill, dodge, same combo, etc.), if lag allows it, gets fired off. And you hear 1 keystroke, no mouse input or other kb input.

robertthebard

SpiderCultist wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

SpiderCultist wrote: »

@Thogard I have nothing else to add to my previoius comment for you but I'd also like to add:

The thing is I don't hear too many keystrokes on "pro" streams, just one if anything and there's always the same combo

GCD variable lecturers are full of...

But if anything positive out of this lag festival that has become Cyrodiil we can come up with is it bothers macroers the most, who ironically are the most fervent PVPers out there.

For your F my F.

So I'm curious: All of my keystrokes sound exactly the same when I'm typing, or gaming. There's no difference between the A, a, 1 or ! strokes, so what is it that you're basing your "same combo" on? A rotation? Rotations don't require macros to use.

1 keystroke != 1 combo

if I press "1", first skill gets fired off but for someone using a macro that could mean: I press "1" (or other key), light/heavy attack + first skill + blockbashed + whatanot (other skill, dodge, same combo, etc.), if lag allows it, gets fired off. And you hear 1 keystroke, no mouse input or other kb input.

Interesting, my mouse is extremely quiet, as in I didn't hear the click when I hit the Quote button to reply to this, but I can see that it actually happened, because here's this post, all quoted and such. Since I can't use my mouse to activate skills, unless I have set my hotkeys to the mouse, and I haven't, except for autorun and mounting, I wouldn't expect to hear my pushing buttons on the side for other skills. If it's something I've been doing for years, such as autorun and mounting, nobody watching a stream of me playing, as bored as they may be, would hear that either. Assigning one button to one action is not against the rules, and since we don't have any shots of a player's hands, all we have is you assuming that's what's going on. I can't, nor would I, categorically deny cheaters in an MMO, I'm not prone to believing "they beat me in PvP, they must be hacking" either, because I have seen clear cut cases where they were, and clear cut cases where they weren't.

SpiderCultist

robertthebard wrote: »

SpiderCultist wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

SpiderCultist wrote: »

@Thogard I have nothing else to add to my previoius comment for you but I'd also like to add:

The thing is I don't hear too many keystrokes on "pro" streams, just one if anything and there's always the same combo

GCD variable lecturers are full of...

But if anything positive out of this lag festival that has become Cyrodiil we can come up with is it bothers macroers the most, who ironically are the most fervent PVPers out there.

For your F my F.

So I'm curious: All of my keystrokes sound exactly the same when I'm typing, or gaming. There's no difference between the A, a, 1 or ! strokes, so what is it that you're basing your "same combo" on? A rotation? Rotations don't require macros to use.

1 keystroke != 1 combo

if I press "1", first skill gets fired off but for someone using a macro that could mean: I press "1" (or other key), light/heavy attack + first skill + blockbashed + whatanot (other skill, dodge, same combo, etc.), if lag allows it, gets fired off. And you hear 1 keystroke, no mouse input or other kb input.

Interesting, my mouse is extremely quiet, as in I didn't hear the click when I hit the Quote button to reply to this, but I can see that it actually happened, because here's this post, all quoted and such. Since I can't use my mouse to activate skills, unless I have set my hotkeys to the mouse, and I haven't, except for autorun and mounting, I wouldn't expect to hear my pushing buttons on the side for other skills. If it's something I've been doing for years, such as autorun and mounting, nobody watching a stream of me playing, as bored as they may be, would hear that either. Assigning one button to one action is not against the rules, and since we don't have any shots of a player's hands, all we have is you assuming that's what's going on. I can't, nor would I, categorically deny cheaters in an MMO, I'm not prone to believing "they beat me in PvP, they must be hacking" either, because I have seen clear cut cases where they were, and clear cut cases where they weren't.

Over the years you can differentiate a good player from someone using macros, it is not they are always on fire casting skills with a huge muscle memory, it's they have recorded/programmed a macro to make life easier for them. And yes, you can assign a hotkey to a mouse, if it is good enough you can also assign a macro that can do nearly everything in a very short time. The easiest macro probably would be light attack + skill + cancel for light attack weaving on PVE. You can also find them for other platforms (not just PC/MAC) like PS4 by attaching a kb/mouse. And I'm done here, to each his own.

SpiderKnight

Thogard wrote: »

SpiderCultist wrote: »

truth is "pro" players use macros

and truth always [snip]hurts

Eh I’ve spent plenty of time dueling those pro players and have beat many of them and I don’t use macros. I’ve even streamed with a hand cam on to prove it.

The real truth is that mediocre players prefer to blame a phantom that doesn’t exist rather than face the realization that they’re mediocre. The real shame is that if they acknowledged that they were mediocre then they might be willing to learn how to improve. Sadly, their ego gets in the way.

F

I've heard of players using foot pedals for macros. Have video of your hands and feet?

JTorus

SpiderKnight wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

SpiderCultist wrote: »

truth is "pro" players use macros

and truth always [snip]hurts

Eh I’ve spent plenty of time dueling those pro players and have beat many of them and I don’t use macros. I’ve even streamed with a hand cam on to prove it.

The real truth is that mediocre players prefer to blame a phantom that doesn’t exist rather than face the realization that they’re mediocre. The real shame is that if they acknowledged that they were mediocre then they might be willing to learn how to improve. Sadly, their ego gets in the way.

F

I've heard of players using foot pedals for macros. Have video of your hands and feet?

TIL Rick Allen plays ESO

Universe

Global cooldown or not, macros provide a huge advantage to PVP & PVE players and it is sad that there are still many users of such tools.
Preventing macros won't be too hard if ZOS will implement server side code that checks the input of the player character in much shorter time intervals.
For example, If the time intervals have perfect sync like 3 times of less than 20ms apart it means the user is cheating, i.e using macros.
The risk of such anti macro is false positive bans, so the punishment should be more severe for second time offenders.

vamp_emily

I'm sure now a days you don't need to use your hands or feet for macro's.

ALEXA, press the KILL ALL button.

Alexa: I'm sorry I can't do that. It is against the game rules.

laksikus

@SpiderCultist there are gamer mice and keyboards out there that wont have build in software for macros.

and you can also set macros with any keyboard and mouse out there, you dont need an expensive device.
a cheap keyboard is enough.

all that a expensive keyboard and mouse means, is that the person using them does want a better experience than using cheap tools xD

JTorus

Universe wrote: »

Global cooldown or not, macros provide a huge advantage to PVP & PVE players and it is sad that there are still many users of such tools.
Preventing macros won't be too hard if ZOS will implement server side code that checks the input of the player character in much shorter time intervals.
For example, If the time intervals have perfect sync like 3 times of less than 20ms apart it means the user is cheating, i.e using macros.
The risk of such anti macro is false positive bans, so the punishment should be more severe for second time offenders.

Except for the overhead required to audit every incoming packet and analyze it, nevermind attempting to factor in something dynamic like latency. Server lag/bottlenecking is bad enough now. What do you think would happen with this implemented?

They could create software that looks at running system processes on each machine. Privacy considerations aside, that wouldn't really do much except to find those individuals running cheat software for memory hacks. Remember, a lot of macro features are part of legitimate software that comes with hardware. Looking any closer than that, could be considered a security compromise.

Realistically, with GCD considered, macros in PvP don't give much of an advantage since you're in combat against other players, who's behavior is unpredictable. Any macro that reaches beyond one or two GCD cycles would likely be a waste and ineffective.

x48rph

Do some people use macros? Yes, they probably do. Is it a game breaking problem that requires ZOS to add yet more monitoring software/code to the game to catch it? No, I don't think so as macros can't override the global cool down and plenty of people can execute things just as fast without them. Sorry, but performance is already in a horrible place and some of why this is so has to do with stuff that was already added and/or changed to catch/prevent cheaters. Until ZOS can get performance back to an acceptable level, they shouldn't be adding anything that puts more of a load on the servers.

SpiderCultist

laksikus wrote: »

@SpiderCultist there are gamer mice and keyboards out there that wont have build in software for macros.

and you can also set macros with any keyboard and mouse out there, you dont need an expensive device.
a cheap keyboard is enough.

all that a expensive keyboard and mouse means, is that the person using them does want a better experience than using cheap tools xD

everything is correct, problem with third party software for macros is they are more prone to be detectable

If I were at zos I would force everyone to comply with running the game with admin privileges

well, I'm getting a bit tired of this subject already, see yuo ingame

Universe

JTorus wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Global cooldown or not, macros provide a huge advantage to PVP & PVE players and it is sad that there are still many users of such tools.
Preventing macros won't be too hard if ZOS will implement server side code that checks the input of the player character in much shorter time intervals.
For example, If the time intervals have perfect sync like 3 times of less than 20ms apart it means the user is cheating, i.e using macros.
The risk of such anti macro is false positive bans, so the punishment should be more severe for second time offenders.

Except for the overhead required to audit every incoming packet and analyze it, nevermind attempting to factor in something dynamic like latency. Server lag/bottlenecking is bad enough now. What do you think would happen with this implemented?

They could create software that looks at running system processes on each machine. Privacy considerations aside, that wouldn't really do much except to find those individuals running cheat software for memory hacks. Remember, a lot of macro features are part of legitimate software that comes with hardware. Looking any closer than that, could be considered a security compromise.

Realistically, with GCD considered, macros in PvP don't give much of an advantage since you're in combat against other players, who's behavior is unpredictable. Any macro that reaches beyond one or two GCD cycles would likely be a waste and ineffective.

I consider the Light attack as input from the user too: Light attack<ability 1 < Light Attack/Ability 2.
As I previously posted, GCD helps mitigate some of the issues but no one can press as fast as macro so it's still provide an advantage.
ZOS made anti cheat program will be nice though given privacy concerns it may encounter some legal difficulties.

DracoSaggitaExSole

I get the point with the GC, I am aware of it, but as above mentioned you can stack multiple sources into one GC, well a really good player can pull it off most of the time.

My point is really that macro can get done a combo for an execute, or an opener perfectly to a millisecond accuracy every time. And I believe it would be naive to say that no one ever used or will use macros in a MMO.
Guess what, I have a Razer Naga Epic, with synapse, and sure I tried it out, I was curious. So yeah, a well set up macro can take care of your burst execute within the limits of a GC every single time, perfectly accurately with a milisec accuracy...
A normal non cyborg human being cannot replicate that.
Of course after trying it, i realized that its a cheat not just against a game policy, also against. myself, because with that wining a fight was not due to my player skill, it was a robot doing it. It was a very short live experience. Since than I work on muscle memory when it comes to a new rotation, or change up of a skill.

I been playing MMO-s for a looong time. I understand this aspect fairly well, GC, LA weaving, Macros all that. That does not mean that i am a good player I am semi casual, and sure there are folks can beat me because they are good. And thats fine, it shows me where can I improve.

But I am not naive to think that no one uses macros.

The ones I suspected might used macros, might not. But If there was an anti cheat system to screen out the ones who do use it would be in place, I would be perfectly ok in my opinion.

But thanks for all the advise, and lesson, and perspective, I do appreciate it.

DracoSaggitaExSole

JTorus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

SpiderCultist wrote: »

truth is "pro" players use macros

and truth always (butt)hurts

Eh I’ve spent plenty of time dueling those pro players and have beat many of them and I don’t use macros. I’ve even streamed with a hand cam on to prove it.

The real truth is that mediocre players prefer to blame a phantom that doesn’t exist rather than face the realization that they’re mediocre. The real shame is that if they acknowledged that they were mediocre then they might be willing to learn how to improve. Sadly, their ego gets in the way.

F

I've seen your hand videos.
You're fooling no one.

Yaa see... thats is what I am talking about!!!!

JTorus

Universe wrote: »

I consider the Light attack as input from the user too: Light attack<ability 1 < Light Attack/Ability 2.
As I previously posted, GCD helps mitigate some of the issues but no one can press as fast as macro so it's still provide an advantage.
ZOS made anti cheat program will be nice though given privacy concerns it may encounter some legal difficulties.

It's all input, typing in a private message is input, holding down for a heavy attack is input. Don't forget, people can re-map keybindings too. You're asking the server to muddle through it all to find a discrepancy that meets a very specific criteria, and then flag it.

Not worth the effort. The GCD *is* the best thing in place to keep the playing field level.

Universe

Ghnami wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

JTorus wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Global cooldown or not, macros provide a huge advantage to PVP & PVE players and it is sad that there are still many users of such tools.
Preventing macros won't be too hard if ZOS will implement server side code that checks the input of the player character in much shorter time intervals.
For example, If the time intervals have perfect sync like 3 times of less than 20ms apart it means the user is cheating, i.e using macros.
The risk of such anti macro is false positive bans, so the punishment should be more severe for second time offenders.

Except for the overhead required to audit every incoming packet and analyze it, nevermind attempting to factor in something dynamic like latency. Server lag/bottlenecking is bad enough now. What do you think would happen with this implemented?

They could create software that looks at running system processes on each machine. Privacy considerations aside, that wouldn't really do much except to find those individuals running cheat software for memory hacks. Remember, a lot of macro features are part of legitimate software that comes with hardware. Looking any closer than that, could be considered a security compromise.

Realistically, with GCD considered, macros in PvP don't give much of an advantage since you're in combat against other players, who's behavior is unpredictable. Any macro that reaches beyond one or two GCD cycles would likely be a waste and ineffective.

I consider the Light attack as input from the user too: Light attack<ability 1 < Light Attack/Ability 2.
As I previously posted, GCD helps mitigate some of the issues but no one can press as fast as macro so it's still provide an advantage.
ZOS made anti cheat program will be nice though given privacy concerns it may encounter some legal difficulties.

you're so wrong, literally you press 2, maybe 3 buttons per SECOND and you're saying a human can't do something 3x a second between two hands with 5 fingers each is *** ridiculous and an insult.

These *** jokers of gamers probably think SC2 professional competitive players are just robots because of their APS.

"HuMaNs CaN't PuSh BuTtOnS iN rIgHt OrDeR wItH gOoD tImInG!"

GET GOOD SCRUBS

I was speaking about less than 20ms, i.e less than 20 milliseconds.
Now try to hit the keyboard controls and your mouse LA with an accuracy which is less than 20 milliseconds apart and you will see that you fail each and every time.
The input of a human will not be able to match the same length of time between each input, not to mention the extremely short input delay which is simply not possible for a human.
Macro is faster than humans,.

Ghnami

Universe wrote: »

Ghnami wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

JTorus wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Global cooldown or not, macros provide a huge advantage to PVP & PVE players and it is sad that there are still many users of such tools.
Preventing macros won't be too hard if ZOS will implement server side code that checks the input of the player character in much shorter time intervals.
For example, If the time intervals have perfect sync like 3 times of less than 20ms apart it means the user is cheating, i.e using macros.
The risk of such anti macro is false positive bans, so the punishment should be more severe for second time offenders.

Except for the overhead required to audit every incoming packet and analyze it, nevermind attempting to factor in something dynamic like latency. Server lag/bottlenecking is bad enough now. What do you think would happen with this implemented?

They could create software that looks at running system processes on each machine. Privacy considerations aside, that wouldn't really do much except to find those individuals running cheat software for memory hacks. Remember, a lot of macro features are part of legitimate software that comes with hardware. Looking any closer than that, could be considered a security compromise.

Realistically, with GCD considered, macros in PvP don't give much of an advantage since you're in combat against other players, who's behavior is unpredictable. Any macro that reaches beyond one or two GCD cycles would likely be a waste and ineffective.

I consider the Light attack as input from the user too: Light attack<ability 1 < Light Attack/Ability 2.
As I previously posted, GCD helps mitigate some of the issues but no one can press as fast as macro so it's still provide an advantage.
ZOS made anti cheat program will be nice though given privacy concerns it may encounter some legal difficulties.

you're so wrong, literally you press 2, maybe 3 buttons per SECOND and you're saying a human can't do something 3x a second between two hands with 5 fingers each is *** ridiculous and an insult.

These *** jokers of gamers probably think SC2 professional competitive players are just robots because of their APS.

"HuMaNs CaN't PuSh BuTtOnS iN rIgHt OrDeR wItH gOoD tImInG!"

GET GOOD SCRUBS

I was speaking about less than 20ms, i.e less than 20 milliseconds.
Now try to hit the keyboard controls and your mouse LA with an accuracy which is less than 20 milliseconds apart and you will see that you fail each and every time.
The input of a human will not be able to match the same length of time between each input, not to mention the extremely short input delay which is simply not possible for a human.
Macro is faster than humans,.

wHAT?

Universe

Ghnami wrote: »

wHAT?

Quote:

Universe wrote: »

Global cooldown or not, macros provide a huge advantage to PVP & PVE players and it is sad that there are still many users of such tools.
Preventing macros won't be too hard if ZOS will implement server side code that checks the input of the player character in much shorter time intervals.
For example, If the time intervals have perfect sync like 3 times of less than 20ms apart it means the user is cheating, i.e using macros.
The risk of such anti macro is false positive bans, so the punishment should be more severe for second time offenders.

DracoSaggitaExSole

Ghnami wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

JTorus wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Global cooldown or not, macros provide a huge advantage to PVP & PVE players and it is sad that there are still many users of such tools.
Preventing macros won't be too hard if ZOS will implement server side code that checks the input of the player character in much shorter time intervals.
For example, If the time intervals have perfect sync like 3 times of less than 20ms apart it means the user is cheating, i.e using macros.
The risk of such anti macro is false positive bans, so the punishment should be more severe for second time offenders.

Except for the overhead required to audit every incoming packet and analyze it, nevermind attempting to factor in something dynamic like latency. Server lag/bottlenecking is bad enough now. What do you think would happen with this implemented?

They could create software that looks at running system processes on each machine. Privacy considerations aside, that wouldn't really do much except to find those individuals running cheat software for memory hacks. Remember, a lot of macro features are part of legitimate software that comes with hardware. Looking any closer than that, could be considered a security compromise.

Realistically, with GCD considered, macros in PvP don't give much of an advantage since you're in combat against other players, who's behavior is unpredictable. Any macro that reaches beyond one or two GCD cycles would likely be a waste and ineffective.

I consider the Light attack as input from the user too: Light attack<ability 1 < Light Attack/Ability 2.
As I previously posted, GCD helps mitigate some of the issues but no one can press as fast as macro so it's still provide an advantage.
ZOS made anti cheat program will be nice though given privacy concerns it may encounter some legal difficulties.

you're so wrong, literally you press 2, maybe 3 buttons per SECOND and you're saying a human can't do something 3x a second between two hands with 5 fingers each is *** ridiculous and an insult.

These *** jokers of gamers probably think SC2 professional competitive players are just robots because of their APS.

"HuMaNs CaN't PuSh BuTtOnS iN rIgHt OrDeR wItH gOoD tImInG!"

GET GOOD SCRUBS

No need to be rude, because someone maybe have an uneducated opinion. Yes there are players who are really good and almost robot like... Thats awesome for them. But yes there are players who will use macros to win and feel good. Trust me, both exists.

And on another note. Taking latency into account I am sure it can be calculated from the historical combat logs by a data miner server that does not running on the same rigs as the game server that how frequent input arrived from a client. Computers understand milliseconds better than humans

Just remember folks, I wanted to phrase my suggestion with respect to good players, who can pull it off without macro, this post was not about them, it was about the ones who use macros, and they should not be able to.

Universe

DracoSaggitaExSole wrote: »

Ghnami wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

JTorus wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Global cooldown or not, macros provide a huge advantage to PVP & PVE players and it is sad that there are still many users of such tools.
Preventing macros won't be too hard if ZOS will implement server side code that checks the input of the player character in much shorter time intervals.
For example, If the time intervals have perfect sync like 3 times of less than 20ms apart it means the user is cheating, i.e using macros.
The risk of such anti macro is false positive bans, so the punishment should be more severe for second time offenders.

Except for the overhead required to audit every incoming packet and analyze it, nevermind attempting to factor in something dynamic like latency. Server lag/bottlenecking is bad enough now. What do you think would happen with this implemented?

They could create software that looks at running system processes on each machine. Privacy considerations aside, that wouldn't really do much except to find those individuals running cheat software for memory hacks. Remember, a lot of macro features are part of legitimate software that comes with hardware. Looking any closer than that, could be considered a security compromise.

Realistically, with GCD considered, macros in PvP don't give much of an advantage since you're in combat against other players, who's behavior is unpredictable. Any macro that reaches beyond one or two GCD cycles would likely be a waste and ineffective.

I consider the Light attack as input from the user too: Light attack<ability 1 < Light Attack/Ability 2.
As I previously posted, GCD helps mitigate some of the issues but no one can press as fast as macro so it's still provide an advantage.
ZOS made anti cheat program will be nice though given privacy concerns it may encounter some legal difficulties.

you're so wrong, literally you press 2, maybe 3 buttons per SECOND and you're saying a human can't do something 3x a second between two hands with 5 fingers each is *** ridiculous and an insult.

These *** jokers of gamers probably think SC2 professional competitive players are just robots because of their APS.

"HuMaNs CaN't PuSh BuTtOnS iN rIgHt OrDeR wItH gOoD tImInG!"

GET GOOD SCRUBS

No need to be rude, because someone maybe have an uneducated opinion. Yes there are players who are really good and almost robot like... Thats awesome for them. But yes there are players who will use macros to win and feel good. Trust me, both exists.

And on another note. Taking latency into account I am sure it can be calculated from the historical combat logs by a data miner server that does not running on the same rigs as the game server that how frequent input arrived from a client. Computers understand milliseconds better than humans

Just remember folks, I wanted to phrase my suggestion with respect to good players, who can pull it off without macro, this post was not about them, it was about the ones who use macros, and they should not be able to.

Uneducated opinion ?
So you are convinced that GCD prevents macros and that macros provide no advantage ?

It is amazing how fast people change their opinion around here.

ZOS_RogerJ

We understand that everyone has their own opinions they want to express, but we also want the forums to be a constructive platform for ESO and its community. As such, we have closed this thread given its non-constructive nature.