So despite overwhelmingly negative response...

RedReign

It seems that there's no intention of changing anything about the way vampire works in Greymoor currently. Is this correct? If so it seems a bit odd that we were even asked for feedback.

Noxavian

RedReign wrote: »

It seems that there's no intention of changing anything about the way vampire works in Greymoor currently. Is this correct? If so it seems a bit odd that we were even asked for feedback.

We'll know tomorrow. If any changes dont come to the PTS during the 'vampire week' I doubt they will the following, which will be the last day.


I'll be really confused if nothing is changed as well. They should probably stop taking feedback on changes if so.

AMeanOne

I'm feeling deja vu, something about cast times...

ShadowHvo

I'm with Noxavian here, if there's nothing tomorrow, it is very likely set in stone.

Lets cross our fingers everyone, and hope for the best.

Paradisius

Im in the same boat. Personally Im already prepared for this change to go live, I dont have the highest expectations for them to do sweeping major changes to the skill line. But if anything, I hop e they at least address numbers across the board (Ability cost numbers, Vampiric Drain damage and restore numbers, etc) Alot can be improved, but its all just guess work until tomorrow comes.

Excelsus

The number of extremely hated changes that have just gone through would surprise you. We still have the ugly block animation for example.

RedReign

Excelsus wrote: »

The number of extremely hated changes that have just gone through would surprise you. We still have the ugly block animation for example.

So far as I know the LA/HA change recently was the first universally despised changed that didnt end up going through anyway.

GeorgeBlack

Same results will follow the response to useless abilities like Stone Giant and Flying Blade.
"No returns"

Nyladreas

RedReign wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

The number of extremely hated changes that have just gone through would surprise you. We still have the ugly block animation for example.

So far as I know the LA/HA change recently was the first universally despised changed that didnt end up going through anyway.

Will bet my butt and everything I own that the LA/HA change will go through at some point later in game.

Deathlord92

I just want that horrible 20% cost increase in non vampire abilities removed it’s to much

MashmalloMan

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Same results will follow the response to useless abilities like Stone Giant and Flying Blade.
"No returns"

Can we add Bound Armaments to that list. It's not a spammable, it's not a usable burst tool, it's a suplimentary replacement for a spammable in pve every 4 GCD's to save on sustain and provide a tiny bit more damage beyond Wrecking Blow. Emphasis on TINY. Completely unusable and unreliable in pvp, only using it for passives. My head hurts from banging it against the wall. When did Stam Sorcs ever ask for a crappy NB bow proc. We wanted a version of curse or frags, a stam Atro, any of those options would of been better.

I understand their view on not giving in to a stam whip, instead focussing on fleshing out the unused skill trees, but Stone Giant is a mess of an abiliity. Cast time, but instant, aoe melee, but ranged, spammable, but stun. Pick what the hell you want to be.

MashmalloMan

Deathlord92 wrote: »

I just want that horrible 20% cost increase in non vampire abilities removed it’s to much

If it's removed, we will have the same situation as live which they're looking to prevent or they will have to heavily nerf the passives. Removing it completely is not an option. If anything, it can be slightly reduced or.. people can realize how much sustain they can actually obtain by investing into vampire abilities instead of complaining about a negative that will not effect you and instead benefit you if you have more than 1/3 of your drain coming from Vampire abilities. That seems like good design to me.

The bad design aspect is making those abilities actually useful and fun to use. Drain and Frenzy need work, Eviserate is ugly. I would of much rather had a true dot and an actual ability than a toggle that will break pve.

Tessitura

Cost increase is not gonna go away, nor should it. I am half expecting to see it lowered from it's current percentage however. If not in the pts then later in the chapter. But don't hold you breath on too many changes. At best we can hope for some fixes to the way some abilities work. Chances are though, the stun will remain wonky and nearly unusable, the spammable won't be touched or change, and the Drain won't be touched. Here is hoping we at least get the odd animation lock on the Blood Scion fixed.

Noxavian

ShadowHvo wrote: »

I'm with Noxavian here, if there's nothing tomorrow, it is very likely set in stone.

Lets cross our fingers everyone, and hope for the best.

Let's keep our fingers crossed my boi, despite our differences, we must stand strong here and accept whatever fate is thrown upon us.

Atherakhia

It's untenable. People use things like False Gods because the ability costs in this game are hard to manage for some classes. I agree that what we have now isn't any better so a penalty is going to be needed. But the current implementation is a bit absurd. I'd rather they made the penalty cost come from health or something like that.

Dracane

I hope for the removal/replacement of cost increase or at least a fair work around that does not include this atrocious set called Vampire Lord.

Dracane

MashmalloMan wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Same results will follow the response to useless abilities like Stone Giant and Flying Blade.
"No returns"

Can we add Bound Armaments to that list. It's not a spammable, it's not a usable burst tool, it's a suplimentary replacement for a spammable in pve every 4 GCD's to save on sustain and provide a tiny bit more damage beyond Wrecking Blow. Emphasis on TINY. Completely unusable and unreliable in pvp, only using it for passives. My head hurts from banging it against the wall. When did Stam Sorcs ever ask for a crappy NB bow proc. We wanted a version of curse or frags, a stam Atro, any of those options would of been better.

I understand their view on not giving in to a stam whip, instead focussing on fleshing out the unused skill trees, but Stone Giant is a mess of an abiliity. Cast time, but instant, aoe melee, but ranged, spammable, but stun. Pick what the hell you want to be.

I would love to have the bound armaments effect on bound aegis. Bound Armaments is leagues better than what magicka sorcerer gets with aegis and I would be very very happy if I got something like this to bolster my below mediocre damage.

peacenote

I think it's ironic that a release about vampires has almost universally supported and praised improvements for werewolves but very mixed reviews about the vampire changes. They aren't all bad, but sometimes I think the fact that this is a game and people get enjoyment from different aspects gets lost in the shuffle.

Was there ever a survey to the population asking "what do you like about the vampire skill line?" Because this really seems like a "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" kind of update.

xXMeowMeowXx

ZOS has a lot of feedback, showing the dissatisfaction over the current state of vampire on PTS. Hoping they adjust the cost penalty among other things.

relentless_turnip

I wouldn't say the feedback has been a consensus of negative feedback.

Vampires are really strong, go and build one on the PTS. You do need to build a vampire though, you won't be able to pick and choose skills they will need to mainly be vampire skills. This is true for werewolves too, but recovery isn't an issue at all.

Juhasow

RedReign wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

The number of extremely hated changes that have just gone through would surprise you. We still have the ugly block animation for example.

So far as I know the LA/HA change recently was the first universally despised changed that didnt end up going through anyway.

It wasn't. There was a time few years ago when ZoS wanted to change how animation cancelling works and how windows for different global cooldowns overlap and it sucked so much and was hated so much it never left PTS.There was also lot of times when less impactfull changes were hold back from leaving PTS due to negative feedback.

Glurin

A lot of that negative feedback might be shooting itself in the foot as well. If you get a flood of people acting as if even a 5% cost increase is absolutely world ending when you know for certain that it is not, then legitimate criticisms get dismissed along with the proclamations of the doomsdayers. It creates a situation where the only way to get good (as in accurate) feedback is to let it go to Live and see what happens with the hard data.

Tessitura

Glurin wrote: »

A lot of that negative feedback might be shooting itself in the foot as well. If you get a flood of people acting as if even a 5% cost increase is absolutely world ending when you know for certain that it is not, then legitimate criticisms get dismissed along with the proclamations of the doomsdayers. It creates a situation where the only way to get good (as in accurate) feedback is to let it go to Live and see what happens with the hard data.

I am so relieved to see someone else that understands this. I have personally worried that some issues that keep the vampire abilities from working properly or just functioning well are gonna go unnoticed until after launch because all the devs are getting is feedback about the ability cost, feedback that they probably are not keen to listen to since half that feedback is also calling them idiots at the same time.

peacenote

I tested on PTS and gave detailed feedback. NOTHING is really world ending here, since things can always be reversed and things evolve, but the feedback isn't black and white.

Concerns about the cost increase include the contradiction of what seems to be encouragement of feeding but then extremely strong penalties for higher stages (making one feel less powerful as you advance, not more so), how certain concepts like vampire tanks, healers, hybrids, and stamina dd's are less viable (which to many, myself included, make the game less fun), how the penalties seem to encourage a "full vampire build" but key concepts are missing from the toolkit to make that work (like aoe damage or a group heal), and a desire by some to look like a vampire without having the penalties or benefits (which I am less concerned with but would support and is no less a valid request than anything else).

And that's just my summary of what I have seen for the cost increases... not to mention other aspects for which there is also a lot of feedback. It is too bad that people give feedback like "ZOS, you crazy" instead of logically explaining why some of the changes aren't positive ones for their play syles. That helps nothing. But that doesn't mean some of the well- thought- out feedback about the cost penalties isn't valid, just because some of the feedback is emotional and says the sky is falling.

ThePedge

They never listen.

Re: cast times

Sephyr

Noxavian wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

I'm with Noxavian here, if there's nothing tomorrow, it is very likely set in stone.

Lets cross our fingers everyone, and hope for the best.

Let's keep our fingers crossed my boi, despite our differences, we must stand strong here and accept whatever fate is thrown upon us.

BUT I'M SCARED!

Mortiis13

Wish they removed the crap blood morph of mist and give instead a batstreak with other benefits then sorc that would fit thematically.

RedReign

Mortiis13 wrote: »

Wish they removed the crap blood morph of mist and give instead a batstreak with other benefits then sorc that would fit thematically.

Id settle for the old visual instead of the red fart cloud

Deathlord92

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

I just want that horrible 20% cost increase in non vampire abilities removed it’s to much

If it's removed, we will have the same situation as live which they're looking to prevent or they will have to heavily nerf the passives. Removing it completely is not an option. If anything, it can be slightly reduced or.. people can realize how much sustain they can actually obtain by investing into vampire abilities instead of complaining about a negative that will not effect you and instead benefit you if you have more than 1/3 of your drain coming from Vampire abilities. That seems like good design to me.

The bad design aspect is making those abilities actually useful and fun to use. Drain and Frenzy need work, Eviserate is ugly. I would of much rather had a true dot and an actual ability than a toggle that will break pve.

Well something needs to happen 20% cost increase is big I don’t know about other classes but magblade sustain not amazing I do well with it but I can see 20% increase making sustain impossible stamblade don’t even benefit as much as there’s no vampire stamina spammable.

Merca

Mortiis13 wrote: »

Wish they removed the crap blood morph of mist and give instead a batstreak with other benefits then sorc that would fit thematically.

I hope it doesn 't happen, has anyone tried to get into pvp by such fog? It seems to me that it will be very confusing if the fog is constantly moving in different directions.

daemonor

peacenote wrote: »

I tested on PTS and gave detailed feedback. NOTHING is really world ending here, since things can always be reversed and things evolve, but the feedback isn't black and white.

Concerns about the cost increase include the contradiction of what seems to be encouragement of feeding but then extremely strong penalties for higher stages (making one feel less powerful as you advance, not more so), how certain concepts like vampire tanks, healers, hybrids, and stamina dd's are less viable (which to many, myself included, make the game less fun), how the penalties seem to encourage a "full vampire build" but key concepts are missing from the toolkit to make that work (like aoe damage or a group heal), and a desire by some to look like a vampire without having the penalties or benefits (which I am less concerned with but would support and is no less a valid request than anything else).

And that's just my summary of what I have seen for the cost increases... not to mention other aspects for which there is also a lot of feedback. It is too bad that people give feedback like "ZOS, you crazy" instead of logically explaining why some of the changes aren't positive ones for their play syles. That helps nothing. But that doesn't mean some of the well- thought- out feedback about the cost penalties isn't valid, just because some of the feedback is emotional and says the sky is falling.

How do you expect people to give constructive feedback, we're not all game developers and mathematical geniouses. A big part of people are giving positive feedback, but they have no interest in endgame pve/pvp, so their feedback is clueless too.

I agree with you tho that the cost increase is pretty irrelevant. Even if they remove the cost increase penalty and leave the reduce buff, what on earth are you actually gonna do with a full bar of vampire skills + ulti? Roleplay? But as i said I cannot offer a solution, because it's not easy to wrap your head around everything and theorycraft something viable.

The current itteration offers a spammable replacement for some classes, and maybe the toggle for others in PvE.
You could probably fit ulti, the CC, the spammable and mist form in a pvp build, but for me personally that would still feel like a regular class with supporting vampire abilities, not a vampire that gets supported by class abilities.