So despite overwhelmingly negative response...
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Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I tested on PTS and gave detailed feedback. NOTHING is really world ending here, since things can always be reversed and things evolve, but the feedback isn't black and white.
Concerns about the cost increase include the contradiction of what seems to be encouragement of feeding but then extremely strong penalties for higher stages (making one feel less powerful as you advance, not more so), how certain concepts like vampire tanks, healers, hybrids, and stamina dd's are less viable (which to many, myself included, make the game less fun), how the penalties seem to encourage a "full vampire build" but key concepts are missing from the toolkit to make that work (like aoe damage or a group heal), and a desire by some to look like a vampire without having the penalties or benefits (which I am less concerned with but would support and is no less a valid request than anything else).
And that's just my summary of what I have seen for the cost increases... not to mention other aspects for which there is also a lot of feedback. It is too bad that people give feedback like "ZOS, you crazy" instead of logically explaining why some of the changes aren't positive ones for their play syles. That helps nothing. But that doesn't mean some of the well- thought- out feedback about the cost penalties isn't valid, just because some of the feedback is emotional and says the sky is falling.
How do you expect people to give constructive feedback, we're not all game developers and mathematical geniouses. A big part of people are giving positive feedback, but they have no interest in endgame pve/pvp, so their feedback is clueless too.
I agree with you tho that the cost increase is pretty irrelevant. Even if they remove the cost increase penalty and leave the reduce buff, what on earth are you actually gonna do with a full bar of vampire skills + ulti? Roleplay? But as i said I cannot offer a solution, because it's not easy to wrap your head around everything and theorycraft something viable.
The current itteration offers a spammable replacement for some classes, and maybe the toggle for others in PvE.
You could probably fit ulti, the CC, the spammable and mist form in a pvp build, but for me personally that would still feel like a regular class with supporting vampire abilities, not a vampire that gets supported by class abilities.
This the Pts forums, not the my opinion based on reading a few lines of patch notes forums.
The devs expect us to give feedback based on actual feedback.
The problem is that most people read patch notes and immidately take to the forums complaining, without actually seeing things I game, and drowning out actual fact based feedback.
This is also true for the rest of the forum as well, so many nerf posts based on misinformation, a new player comes on these forums will have a very different idea of what's going on in game vs what actually is happening.2 -
Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That’s actually a very good idea if they did surveys they would get a lot more straight answers of what everyone wantsI think it's ironic that a release about vampires has almost universally supported and praised improvements for werewolves but very mixed reviews about the vampire changes. They aren't all bad, but sometimes I think the fact that this is a game and people get enjoyment from different aspects gets lost in the shuffle.
Was there ever a survey to the population asking "what do you like about the vampire skill line?" Because this really seems like a "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" kind of update.
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RedReign✭✭✭✭Deathlord92 wrote: »
That’s actually a very good idea if they did surveys they would get a lot more straight answers of what everyone wantsI think it's ironic that a release about vampires has almost universally supported and praised improvements for werewolves but very mixed reviews about the vampire changes. They aren't all bad, but sometimes I think the fact that this is a game and people get enjoyment from different aspects gets lost in the shuffle.
Was there ever a survey to the population asking "what do you like about the vampire skill line?" Because this really seems like a "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" kind of update.
but would they listen to that feedback?1 -
Joxer61✭✭✭✭✭
you are aware that was never going to go into the game at any point now or in near future? They tested a response, and boy did they get one.0 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Deathlord92 wrote: »
That’s actually a very good idea if they did surveys they would get a lot more straight answers of what everyone wantsI think it's ironic that a release about vampires has almost universally supported and praised improvements for werewolves but very mixed reviews about the vampire changes. They aren't all bad, but sometimes I think the fact that this is a game and people get enjoyment from different aspects gets lost in the shuffle.
Was there ever a survey to the population asking "what do you like about the vampire skill line?" Because this really seems like a "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" kind of update.
but would they listen to that feedback?
I'd lie and say yes, but I'm going to say no.0 -
RedReign✭✭✭✭
you are aware that was never going to go into the game at any point now or in near future? They tested a response, and boy did they get one.
I dont agree. I think that eventually they'll put it through anyway, probably some time next year.1 -
Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭
True 😔Deathlord92 wrote: »
That’s actually a very good idea if they did surveys they would get a lot more straight answers of what everyone wantsI think it's ironic that a release about vampires has almost universally supported and praised improvements for werewolves but very mixed reviews about the vampire changes. They aren't all bad, but sometimes I think the fact that this is a game and people get enjoyment from different aspects gets lost in the shuffle.
Was there ever a survey to the population asking "what do you like about the vampire skill line?" Because this really seems like a "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" kind of update.
but would they listen to that feedback?
0 -
RedReign✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »I actually enjoyed PTS Vampire thoroughly.
Were not discussing the skills. Those are fine, though its one damaging attack could use a stamina morph.2 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭Paradisius wrote: »Im in the same boat. Personally Im already prepared for this change to go live, I dont have the highest expectations for them to do sweeping major changes to the skill line. But if anything, I hop e they at least address numbers across the board (Ability cost numbers, Vampiric Drain damage and restore numbers, etc) Alot can be improved, but its all just guess work until tomorrow comes.
This ^1 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭Deathlord92 wrote: »I just want that horrible 20% cost increase in non vampire abilities removed it’s to much
Couldn't agree more. There will def have to be some major changes now because of this.3 -
darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »I wouldn't say the feedback has been a consensus of negative feedback.
Vampires are really strong, go and build one on the PTS. You do need to build a vampire though, you won't be able to pick and choose skills they will need to mainly be vampire skills. This is true for werewolves too, but recovery isn't an issue at all.
If it's only properly functional with one build, then it's crap design to begin with. The current cost increases are complete overkill.7 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The last time I played actively incap didn't have a cast time. And I don't see myself returning unless they revert that stupid change.4 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Removing the ability cost increases at stage 1 will at least help the healers and tanks out not focused on DPS. I also personally think the -10% cost reduction on vampire skills at stage 1 needs to go to, like why is that even there? Can't use vampire abilities as a mortal and it hides the true price of the vampire abilities unless you do the math.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK4 -
RedReign✭✭✭✭Removing the ability cost increases at stage 1 will at least help the healers and tanks out not focused on DPS. I also personally think the -10% cost reduction on vampire skills at stage 1 needs to go to, like why is that even there? Can't use vampire abilities as a mortal and it hides the true price of the vampire abilities unless you do the math.
I think the health recovery penalty needs to be lowered as well, maybe to -80% instead of -100%6 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I think the health recovery penalty needs to be lowered as well, maybe to -80% instead of -100%
That to, would make the Corrupting Bloody Mara somewhat more useful again. The reason people got around the health recovery on Live is because there was a passive that reduced the effects of it. So the health recovery if you took that passive was the following.
Stages 1/2/3/4
Health Recovery -0%/-0%/-25%/-50%
That's very easily worked around as you can imagine.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Removing the ability cost increases at stage 1 will at least help the healers and tanks out not focused on DPS. I also personally think the -10% cost reduction on vampire skills at stage 1 needs to go to, like why is that even there? Can't use vampire abilities as a mortal and it hides the true price of the vampire abilities unless you do the math.
But who wants to do the math?! Pffft!
In seriousness though, yeah. That -10% has got to go along with the increase cost (though it's probably negligible tbh, I'd have to do some testing on my builds to see).
I mean I'm ready for the patch, but I'm just rather underwhelmed with it all. I know a lot of people are, but ZoS is gonna ZoS and go "IT WAS A SUCCESS." No, Todd. No it wasn't.4 -
RedReign✭✭✭✭Canned_Apples wrote: »I don’t know why some of you are surprised.
They never listen to feedback.
2 -
Mortiis13✭✭✭✭Wish they removed the crap blood morph of mist and give instead a batstreak
with other benefits then sorc that would fit thematically.
I hope it doesn 't happen, has anyone tried to get into pvp by such fog? It seems to me that it will be very confusing if the fog is constantly moving in different directions.
Just a personal wish, I miss streak every time I play magcro in pvp ^^0 -
xXMeowMeowXx✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »I wouldn't say the feedback has been a consensus of negative feedback.
Vampires are really strong, go and build one on the PTS. You do need to build a vampire though, you won't be able to pick and choose skills they will need to mainly be vampire skills. This is true for werewolves too, but recovery isn't an issue at all.
I did extensively test it....
If is so great and versatile then ZOS should rework WW’ again from the new changes. Make it function just like the new vampy with cost increase plus the penalties. It would be fitting since they are both afflictions.
I am pretty sure the forums reaction would be very different then.
Before the PTS people already showed their biased opinions on vampires and how they hated them.
Lots of those people are on here commenting and certainly I doubt they tested much of anything.
Edited by xXMeowMeowXx on May 11, 2020 5:30PM1 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Kinda weird no nerfs to the new arena weapon buffs no class changes a few boss hear buff/nerfs but like nothing has changed not like zos to not turn every aspect of the game upside down0 -
Joxer61✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »I actually enjoyed PTS Vampire thoroughly.
Were not discussing the skills. Those are fine, though its one damaging attack could use a stamina morph.
yes please0 -
Finedaible✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Yet.
I think they still intend to go through with those changes, just not at this time since they can't deal with the repercussions. To be fair though, the removal of heavy attack snare was a great change that I think should have gone to live regardless. When the time comes to make those changes, I hope they have the sense to make all light and heavy attacks restore resources but with scaling mounts, and not neuter light attack damage as much as they were proposing. Tiny chisel, not sledgehammer.0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think people have a misunderstanding of what feedback means. Asking for feedback doesn't mean accepting that feedback. And in the case of the vampire change, the feedback people are offering is feedback that basically reverts the changes to make the vampire just passive things that provide no setbacks for using. A thing they are intentionally trying to avoid by making the changes. When the feedback is "Don't do this because I like the broken way it works now," the feedback is hardly useful.
Feedback that does help is "this skill doesn't work properly" or "there is a bug here." But people don't want change, they want to reap the benefits of a skill line without any negatives. So any amount of change or fix that is implemented that doesn't go to this extreme is going to be viewed as "ZOS just doesn't listen to feedback." Which is a blatant lie.1 -
RedReign✭✭✭✭I think people have a misunderstanding of what feedback means. Asking for feedback doesn't mean accepting that feedback. And in the case of the vampire change, the feedback people are offering is feedback that basically reverts the changes to make the vampire just passive things that provide no setbacks for using. A thing they are intentionally trying to avoid by making the changes. When the feedback is "Don't do this because I like the broken way it works now," the feedback is hardly useful.
Feedback that does help is "this skill doesn't work properly" or "there is a bug here." But people don't want change, they want to reap the benefits of a skill line without any negatives. So any amount of change or fix that is implemented that doesn't go to this extreme is going to be viewed as "ZOS just doesn't listen to feedback." Which is a blatant lie.
If they aren't accepting feedback then they shouldn't ask for it. You can defend it all you want but no amount of white knighting will make you right.2 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think people have a misunderstanding of what feedback means. Asking for feedback doesn't mean accepting that feedback. And in the case of the vampire change, the feedback people are offering is feedback that basically reverts the changes to make the vampire just passive things that provide no setbacks for using. A thing they are intentionally trying to avoid by making the changes. When the feedback is "Don't do this because I like the broken way it works now," the feedback is hardly useful.
Feedback that does help is "this skill doesn't work properly" or "there is a bug here." But people don't want change, they want to reap the benefits of a skill line without any negatives. So any amount of change or fix that is implemented that doesn't go to this extreme is going to be viewed as "ZOS just doesn't listen to feedback." Which is a blatant lie.
If they aren't accepting feedback then they shouldn't ask for it. You can defend it all you want but no amount of white knighting will make you right.
Not accepting all feedback does not mean not accepting any feedback. Just because a person has feedback doesn't make the feedback good. Not all feedback is good and not all feedback is valid or useful. Expecting them to just accept all feedback in order for their feedback process to be valid is just delusional.0 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think people have a misunderstanding of what feedback means. Asking for feedback doesn't mean accepting that feedback. And in the case of the vampire change, the feedback people are offering is feedback that basically reverts the changes to make the vampire just passive things that provide no setbacks for using. A thing they are intentionally trying to avoid by making the changes. When the feedback is "Don't do this because I like the broken way it works now," the feedback is hardly useful.
Feedback that does help is "this skill doesn't work properly" or "there is a bug here." But people don't want change, they want to reap the benefits of a skill line without any negatives. So any amount of change or fix that is implemented that doesn't go to this extreme is going to be viewed as "ZOS just doesn't listen to feedback." Which is a blatant lie.
If they aren't accepting feedback then they shouldn't ask for it. You can defend it all you want but no amount of white knighting will make you right.
I also love the fact that they're generalizing people giving legitimate feedback. Either we're all reading different forums or those posts get piled under legitimate feedback posts because I've not seen very many people say they just want to keep what's on Live.
Furthermore, to extrapolate on the whole thing;
The feedback that's been given should've been at least talked about within developer comments if or why they're not changing something because that's what transparency on such a drastic change to a line is useful for. To say that we're not giving useful feedback, or any feedback that 'isn't' apparently 'we want to keep the broken way it works now' is a flat out lie or you're on skooma. My opinion is both.0 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I wouldn't say the feedback has been a consensus of negative feedback.
Vampires are really strong, go and build one on the PTS. You do need to build a vampire though, you won't be able to pick and choose skills they will need to mainly be vampire skills. This is true for werewolves too, but recovery isn't an issue at all.
I did extensively test it....
If is so great and versatile then ZOS should rework WW’ again from the new changes. Make it function just like the new vampy with cost increase plus the penalties. It would be fitting since they are both afflictions.
I am pretty sure the forums reaction would be very different then.
Before the PTS people already showed their biased opinions on vampires and how they hated them.
Lots of those people are on here commenting and certainly I doubt they tested much of anything.
Show of hands, which Healer or DPS would like to add an extra 10 - 20% Skill Cost to their rotation? Don't be shy.Edited by Nagastani on May 11, 2020 6:39PM6
