Huge Hidden Stamblade PvP Nerf

Decimus · April 2020

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

leaving a frustrating broken element in the game leads to lazy game play and frustrations to your opponent.

Can you describe how this mechanic has been frustrating you so much ? Help me understand please.

Every other class is visible when they apply their "heavy plus stun plus damage spammable" , this gives the ability to counterplay because you can see them prepping and the effects they have active etc.

Nightblades can "heavy plus stun plus damage spammable" while totally invisible, do I really need to spell out the zero counterplay and frustration of anyone on the receiving end.

Some Nightblades want to do this from stealth, remain in stealth, and then be able to instantly recloak and run away at swift sprint top speed if they fail to Gank, and then take to the forum if one of the million AOE skills on the battlefield breaks our cloak.

Nightblades in a lore friendly way "Strike From the shadows, and have the element of surprise, not be an untouchable and invisible ghost that fires off nukes, no it is not a part of class identity even if you did mod Skyrim with one shot arrows and 1000% stealth skill.
This is an MMO and MMO's need balance or players leave because it is a clown game tuned for who ever types loudest.

On top of what's been said by other people already (I'm not going to repeat them), you might want to consider the reality that getting hit by a heavy attack from cloak is the least of your worries, and that the real victim of this change is Surprise Attack (since you can't get weave dmg before it anymore if you want to CC, lowering the overall burst significantly).

People will still be able to:
a) cast a dizzy swing from cloak and land light (or medium for stun) weave+any skill right after, just as with Heavy Attack except with even more damage.
b) cast snipe from cloak - self-explanatory.

How much do you like being on the receiving end of those? Because that's all you're going to see if Surprise Attack is as good as dead as a CC and simultaneously as a spammable since no one slots both Dizzy Swing and Surprise Attack while they perform the same function but one (former) does it better than the other.

Kalante · April 2020

ne.ga.kurai_ESO wrote: »

- Give Surprise Attack 15% armor reduction while hitting from sides / back (this is still less than Major Fracture with 33k resists)
- After a successful Surprise Attack from sides / back while stealthed turn Surprise Attack into Creeping Death... dealing SA dmg * 1.5 and Silencing target for 2sec.
- After a successful Surprise Attack from sides / back while stealthed stun target for 3sec and also perform an 8m range PBAOE Disorient (remember this one? it's a classic mesmerize... "stun" that breaks on damage) for 10 seconds
- Add 25-50% bonus damage hitting Surprise Attack from sides / back while stealthed
- Add 70% 1-2 sec snare from back /sides if not sneaking / invis

Pick one, pick all. How hard is it to fix a *** class and make it fun?

or just give stam nb major fracture back to surprise attack since this class requires the most demanding movement out of all classes when it comes to brawling otherwise you just get caught up and one shot. You can't expect a nightblade to have pressure with no quick debuffs. If you can debuff a target as a nighblade right now without risking getting of 1 shot you are a god. Also enough with the "hitting people from the sides" thats a gimmick, all the other classes don't have to do that BS, why put the nb at a disadvantage with this gimmick.

Kalante · April 2020

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

"Bug" - did you know that light attack weaving/animation canceling wasn't an intended feature when the game was released? Yet it was left there because it made the game better instead of otherwise around, and is now part of the base game.

[snip] trying to keep weaving and animation cancelling in the game is why Cyrodiil is Laggy, and why combat fails to trigger skills smoothly and after the client changed from "Client says so server do" (why you got desyncs and magic deaths) to a "Call and response" (where the client now receives server validation on skill) is why sometimes you stand there for 10 seconds unable to even heavy attack while your stamina bar depletes.

combat should have been fixed and balanced around good buff management with shorter buff duration on GCD in combat for your damage burst, would have still took skill and been an action MMO but the servers wouldn't have been swamped with spamming Light attack Bash plus skill plus dodge Multiple times a second from each player.

[snip]

This game used to work four years ago with animation canceling, even a year ago skills responded in pvp sure it was not perfect but they at least fired when you wanted to, and pve was working fine. All of these skill delays and attacks not registering started happening when zos implemented their genius block changes two months ago in their update 25 aka their "performance patch".

[snip] I mean we are not the ones in charge of the game making all of these changes, we just tell zos how terrible they are but still proceed with them anyway. Now we are where we are.

[edited for baiting]

ZOS_Lunar · April 2020

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universal_wrath · April 2020

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Melee heavy attacks from cloak now break your cloak on PTS.

What this essentially means is that every high end nightblade who actually heavy weaves into their Surprise Attack stun lost about 4-5k burst damage in noCP and the sustain associated with the heavy attack weaves.

While this change is not listed on the patch notes, I would guess this following line is what has caused the issue:

Fixed an issue where partially charged Heavy Attacks, or “Medium Attacks,” were not considered Direct Damage.

Class was doing pretty bad already, especially in group PvP - if this isn't the nail in the coffin I don't know what is.

This nerf hits stamina NB players worse than the Surprise Attack change, worse than Incap cast time, worse than removing Minor Berserk from Relentless, worse than making casting Vigor break cloak and worse than Ambush breaking cloak.

Something better be done.

Good, crutching on a bug will not get you anywhere. Since they fixed this bug, they might also fix other bugs related to cloak. Now you can properly ask for buffs to nightblade, but I'm know that as long as nightblade has cloak, it will stay as it is. Same thing happened with stamsorc, instead of reowrking the class, they just keep buffing streak like stamsorc is only streak and nothing else, nightblade it the same in this way.

"Bug" - did you know that light attack weaving/animation canceling wasn't an intended feature when the game was released? Yet it was left there because it made the game better instead of otherwise around, and is now part of the base game.

It is the same with cloak heavy weaves.

Also it is funny you think cloak is something that is overpowered right now; if that were the case surely top tier NBs wouldn't be quitting the game left and right, people wouldn't be cursing when they get a NB in their team in BGs and the vast majority of PvP population wouldn't consider them sub-par?

These days you'd be lucky to not get uncloaked by a gap closer or a random execute, light attack, bound armaments etc etc. I don't see any of the "heavy attack from cloak is op" people bringing up those actual bugs.

I'd also be very interested in hearing when they last buffed cloak at all, in Greymoor that skill will be more trivial than ever as every vampire will have access to invisibility.

It's very disingenuous to suggest that cloak is something that has been buffed many times, when almost everything thrown at it over the 6 years of this game's existence has been a nerf.

Taktak wrote: »

that's good because stealth in this game should be defensive utility not offensive

this is fix for nb cloak

Taktak aren't you the one always complaining when you get a NB in your team?

I'll tell you why: because 99% of NBs don't know how to play the class and do precisely what you suggest: only use cloak as a defensive tool to spam over and over and over again, doing no damage whatsoever (because they quite simply can't without utilizing cloak offensively) and being a liability to their team in BGs.

Attacking with Surprise Attack while Sneaking or invisible stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

^This is on the tooltip of Surprise Attack for a reason, it has never been the intention that NBs should be a class that only runs away or plays like a brawler rather than an assassin.

I never said that cloak is overpowered, I said as long as nighblades has cloak, they will get the same treatment as stamsorc will streak. now since you mentioned it, Cloak is overpower if it did not bug out same with streak, that is why both classes should not revolve around 1 skill that is bound for changes. one patch they buff streak and stamsorc is good, next patch they nerf it and stamsorc is no good and so on and on. Nightblades will not be balanced properly if people still cling to cloak, now everyone have another cloak via vamp

This make no sense,you said that NB will be always bad because of cloak like stamsorc because of streak but unlike NB where both Magika/Stamina are in a bad place(esp magika)magsorc is actually in a good spost,always have been and following your logic magsorc should be in the trash bin aswell thanks to streak.
Stop using bad excuse to try to get rid/nerf cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

As a NB main I say it's good. Bugs shouldn't be the way to gain power. Instead we should ask for buffs and elgit ways of getting stronger.

Usually i would agree with this logic,if this would have been "fixed" when the class was top tier/good no one would have complained since this was just giving an extra(uninteded if you want)advantage to a class that was alredy good.

But right now Nb in general are in bad spot,so if you change one one the few things NB can use to win a fight with nothing in return we make stamblade as bad as magebalde.
They could have changed this when they also buffed NB a little bit atleast,it's not like the forum is exploding with "nerf nb thread".

This is alredy the second patch with no class change and we get another change that make our alredy bad class even worse and if we are lucky we might get a buff 3 month's after greymoor.

I could have said sorcerer class in general, but I specifically said stamsorc because it is the one that is lacking while magsorc kit is almost complete even without streak. magsorc as you said has always been in a good spot thanks to its toolkit, it uses variety of skills and all work as intended, you can have 2 different spammable that can actually kill people and 3 burst skills, dmg mitigation, healing, and mobility. that is way I excluded magsorc from this discussion. Making class tier excuse for not fixing stuff is wrong. I honestly never knew this bug even existed, but since it does exist, a fix for it is all welcome, I would say same thing about all classes as well if they were exploiting mechanics as crutch, it is better to get rid of the bug in order to buff the class correctly.

universal_wrath · April 2020

Kalante wrote: »

ne.ga.kurai_ESO wrote: »

- Give Surprise Attack 15% armor reduction while hitting from sides / back (this is still less than Major Fracture with 33k resists)
- After a successful Surprise Attack from sides / back while stealthed turn Surprise Attack into Creeping Death... dealing SA dmg * 1.5 and Silencing target for 2sec.
- After a successful Surprise Attack from sides / back while stealthed stun target for 3sec and also perform an 8m range PBAOE Disorient (remember this one? it's a classic mesmerize... "stun" that breaks on damage) for 10 seconds
- Add 25-50% bonus damage hitting Surprise Attack from sides / back while stealthed
- Add 70% 1-2 sec snare from back /sides if not sneaking / invis

Pick one, pick all. How hard is it to fix a *** class and make it fun?

or just give stam nb major fracture back to surprise attack since this class requires the most demanding movement out of all classes when it comes to brawling otherwise you just get caught up and one shot. You can't expect a nightblade to have pressure with no quick debuffs. If you can debuff a target as a nighblade right now without risking getting of 1 shot you are a god. Also enough with the "hitting people from the sides" thats a gimmick, all the other classes don't have to do that BS, why put the nb at a disadvantage with this gimmick.

stamsorc does not have access to any kind of debuff, it still kill poeple. you think dizzy does more dmg than surprise attack, use it. both skills have pros and cons mainly dizzy have more dmg, off balance, and stun, while surpirse attack instant, and activated class passive primarily major resolve. Stamsorc is the class the demand most movement due to its lack of burst, heal, and defense. nightblades have a potential burst ( does not mean it can land), can do more dmg via passive crit and minor vulnerability and fracture, more defense and healing.

MusCanus · April 2020

universal_wrath wrote: »

I honestly never knew this bug even existed, but since it does exist, a fix for it is all welcome, I would say same thing about all classes as well if they were exploiting mechanics as crutch, it is better to get rid of the bug in order to buff the class correctly.

It's pathetic. You still will be able to cancel inferno/frost staff HA into Concealed Weapon to stun, you still will be able to cancel bow HA into SA to stun. But that's ok, cause Concealed Weapon and bow are terrible on the front bar. If a bug is beneficial to NBs, it should be fixed asap, otherwise it may stay indefinitely.

josh.lackey_ESO · April 2020

We stamblades should be able to use Blade of Woe in PvP without breaking stealth! I want to assassinate anyone from invisibility without any risk. It's fair because of 10m range (effective) on detect potions for 12 seconds hard counter me. My build can't sustain or take damage because I am an assassin not a brawler.

josh.lackey_ESO · April 2020

Decimus wrote: »

[
No, they should re-implement the functionality until they have something in place that keeps stamblade in a playable state and lets us weave lights/heavies with our offensive CC like every other class in the game.

Are you saying the nightblade class now cannot weave light/heavy attacks at all?

Or do you mean you can now only weave them without being invisible, which is exactly "like every other class in the game." The situation is now the exact opposite as you suggest. Nightblade is on the same turf as everyone else instead of having an overpowered special advantage.

Aedaryl · April 2020

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

[
No, they should re-implement the functionality until they have something in place that keeps stamblade in a playable state and lets us weave lights/heavies with our offensive CC like every other class in the game.

Are you saying the nightblade class now cannot weave light/heavy attacks at all?

Or do you mean you can now only weave them without being invisible, which is exactly "like every other class in the game." The situation is now the exact opposite as you suggest. Nightblade is on the same turf as everyone else instead of having an overpowered special advantage.

Overpowered and nightblade in the same sentence is actually hilarious.

If you died to a NB recently, you should question yourself a lot.

Thoragaal · April 2020

I think it's an unintentional effect to begin with.
However, I wish ZOS wouldn't have a different approach to changes "we nerfed this, but instead buffed this". Instead of what's currently happening "we nerfed this.. we'll see if we buff something else later".

Nobody wants to wait several months (sometimes years) to have their class/main character being effective again.
Sometimes a specific playstyle is what keeps people playing the same character over and over again; removing said playstyle also makes people quit the game.

Decimus · April 2020

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

[
No, they should re-implement the functionality until they have something in place that keeps stamblade in a playable state and lets us weave lights/heavies with our offensive CC like every other class in the game.

Are you saying the nightblade class now cannot weave light/heavy attacks at all?

Or do you mean you can now only weave them without being invisible, which is exactly "like every other class in the game." The situation is now the exact opposite as you suggest. Nightblade is on the same turf as everyone else instead of having an overpowered special advantage.

You might want to read that again.

A little background since it sounds like you might not have played stamblade before: if you weave a surprise attack without being invisible, you do not stun with it (same applies to Concealed Weapon).

...and here's what I wrote:

...and lets us weave lights/heavies with our offensive CC like every other class in the game

with our offensive CC

I hope that clarifies it.

If you think that NB right now has an "overpowered special advantage" by being able to burst+CC after spending a global cooldown to go invisible, I don't know what to tell you apart from that pretty much every good player I've ever talked to would disagree with you, and that BG scoreboards don't really reflect that "NB opness".

If you want tips on how to fight NBs I'm happy to help you, I haven't died to one in a 1v1 in over 2 years on any of my 15 max level characters.

Ragnaroek93 · April 2020

Amazing how they managed to nerf Nb even further without even trying to do so...

Strider__Roshin · April 2020

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Amazing how they managed to nerf Nb even further without even trying to do so...

Oh I wouldn't say this change was unintentional.

MusCanus · April 2020

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Amazing how they managed to nerf Nb even further without even trying to do so...

Oh I wouldn't say this change was unintentional.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

Strider__Roshin · April 2020

MusCanus wrote: »

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Amazing how they managed to nerf Nb even further without even trying to do so...

Oh I wouldn't say this change was unintentional.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

Lol touché

West93 · April 2020

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Who's even playing Nightblade at this point LOL

Plenty of them running in IC and sewers trying to gank low level pve players. Pathetic.

Thoragaal · May 2020

Do we have an official reply to this change anywhere?

ne.ga.kurai_ESO · May 2020

Big ups to the OP lmao :

Veiled Strike:

This ability and its morphs now stun and set targets Off Balance when used from the flank of an enemy, rather than when you are stealthed or invisible. This change was done to offset the loss of the ability to activate this portion of the attack with the recent fixes to Heavy Attacks properly breaking invisibility.

Nagastani · May 2020

Well hopefully they role this back or fix it some other way. I mean, you have to understand that NBs should open with a Heavy Attack from Cloak. That is proper form and correct tactic for numerous reasons. So by removing this, you are removing another Tactic from a NBs toolkit, which also coincides with the removal of Minor Berserk spammable.

It's interesting how they slipped this little change in without even a spoiler alert. After reading this and weeks of disappointing gameplay in Cyrodiil and IC, I'm wondering what is even the point of NB anymore? You can't have a strategy without tactics. And you can't have a NB do NB things if you constantly rip us apart because some people are offended they died in a PvP Zone.

If you are unable or unwilling to defend yourself in PvP, not willing to take time and do the research or develop a strong character then why do we keep taking it out on the NB? People who have never played a NB won't understand why we are not happy about changes like this and it often feels like we are being slowly marginalized out of the game.

And because of this, that's why you see Templars and Wardens now EVERYWHERE. I'm serious everyone in Cyrodiil these days is playing virtually the exact same build. Buff > Dots > Gap Close > Jabs and Death. Warden is ball groups and Storm Ultimate. Templar Ults with Gravity Crush and Destro Ult. Same thing. More of the same. NB was different. Everyone could not play a NB, that's what made it gold because it was different. Now it's being ripped apart and flushed down the toilet... because it's different and no one wants to die in PvP. Just keep spamming BoL, Warden Storm and Heals... turn your mind off, turn you brain off. Ult dump and farm Tel Vars with no risk.

ne.ga.kurai_ESO · May 2020

Nagastani wrote: »

...

Read the patch notes. They buffed it sort of along the lines I was talking about.

It's basically your typical rogue backstab now, but I still think they should increase the damage for flank strikes. Either up the armor pen to 15% or give a bonus damage. Because of all the auto facing in this game and how *** performance is landing positionals with intention is difficult.

Nagastani · May 2020

ne.ga.kurai_ESO wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

...

Read the patch notes. They buffed it sort of along the lines I was talking about.

It's basically your typical rogue backstab now, but I still think they should increase the damage for flank strikes. Either up the armor pen to 15% or give a bonus damage. Because of all the auto facing in this game and how *** performance is landing positionals with intention is difficult.

I read the patch notes but missed this part. As you said however, that's another problem is the performance and the camera angle. I can't even fight in first person anymore cause everyone disappears from the view. And doing combos or rotation is getting to be unnecessarily difficult for same reason plus lag.

Thats why people send me a /tell and complain about 2Hand Spam or Bow Spam, but how else can I hit you?

Especially the Templar Jab animation and other things producing all these effects I can't even see what is going on anymore.

Oh and another thing. Sometimes when a Templar attacks, I lose a chunk of Magicka and Stam (Health too but that's not withstanding). Anyone know why that is? Is it a like an alchemical poison or something else?

Ragnaroek93 · May 2020

Good change but I don't think that it's enough. Nb still needs healing buffs and bugfixes to Cloak.

Solariken · May 2020

Here's a kooky idea:

Shadow Barrier passive grants CC immunity while you are invisible.

Hear me out.

Nightblades biggest weakness is that their defense is completely shut down without any effort from most classes with easy AoE. Streaks, Leaps, Dawnbreakers, Curse, etc etc - all completely delete nightblades. No other class can be completely shut out of their primary defense leaving them in such an easy-kill vulnerable state.

With this change, all these things would still expose and damage the nightblade, but they wouldn't have the kind of absolute advantage over Cloak that they currently have.

So if a Sorc Streaks you, they break your Cloak and deal full damage, but they have to Streak you again or use another ability if they want to land a CC.

Thoughts?

MusCanus · May 2020

ne.ga.kurai_ESO wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

...

Either up the armor pen to 15% or give a bonus damage. Because of all the auto facing in this game and how *** performance is landing positionals with intention is difficult.

And/or make blocking not work (or work poorly) against direct damage from the flank. It would just make sense.

Tommy_The_Gun · May 2020

This change to Veiled Strike is one of those changes that come from nowhere and you are like...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzUWKSYjpgQ

ZOS was quiet recently regarding bugged invisibility & cloak, being interrupted / cancelled by literally everything. Players (even non-nb) were asking about this because they all thought it is a bug. Now we know it is not....
It is super confusing & not initiative.

Previous standard was that only dmg dealing AOEs or skills that had "reveal" effect were countering stealth / invisibility.
Now ZOS changed that so now also single target heavy attacks do so.

Am I the only one thinking that it kinda does not make sense ? All of the sudden single target thing that needs a target can break stealth / invisibility of target that can not be targeted due to "invisible" status ?

If I was to try to find some kind of logic behind this, it is maybe, perhaps ZOS does not want NB to use invisibility so much ? Idk, class is designed in a way that kinda forces that play-style. There is no way to play NB without stealth / invisibility and remain competitive.
Well, if they don't wan NB to use invisibility so much, then maybe they should add some other option to NB, instead of nerfing the only option they have ?

Tbh. what they did is basically they made this stun even less reliable. Not only you will have to be in cloak (what, you are gonna run to your target just like that ? ? ?) but also be lucky enough for the server to consider you attacking from flank. Because we all know how it works. You are attacking from flank, but server side, enemy is looking at you...

Invisibility / stealth + Veiled Strike was a combo. You know... a combo. Something that required some tactics & planning. Now we have a server lag RNG in that combo....

Also, can you mention other class in ESO that can have it's core feature & defence 100% negated by... a heavy attack ?

Nagastani · May 2020

Solariken wrote: »

Here's a kooky idea:

Shadow Barrier passive grants CC immunity while you are invisible.

Hear me out.

Nightblades biggest weakness is that their defense is completely shut down without any effort from most classes with easy AoE. Streaks, Leaps, Dawnbreakers, Curse, etc etc - all completely delete nightblades. No other class can be completely shut out of their primary defense leaving them in such an easy-kill vulnerable state.

With this change, all these things would still expose and damage the nightblade, but they wouldn't have the kind of absolute advantage over Cloak that they currently have.

So if a Sorc Streaks you, they break your Cloak and deal full damage, but they have to Streak you again or use another ability if they want to land a CC.

Thoughts?

Back in the long long ago, Cloak used to Dispel negative effects. God it was great. Now the only way to get similar effect is to either use Efficient Purge or Wyrd Tree Blessing 5pc.

The only real defense we have if the cloak fails is Fear spammable. And to ZOS credit, they did buff that some after nerfing it so should give credit for that. However I think you are right, CC is a real problem and getting around this is nearly impossible against Templars and Sorcs. Although Vamp Skill Line has something of similar function.

Basically the only real defense is Fear them and try to escape which is nearly impossible if you are snared or perhaps rooted. With no real burst heals aside from perhaps Vigor, but the problem there is Vigor burns Stam needed to break free or maneuver.

Ragnaroek93 · May 2020

Solariken wrote: »

Here's a kooky idea:

Shadow Barrier passive grants CC immunity while you are invisible.

Hear me out.

Nightblades biggest weakness is that their defense is completely shut down without any effort from most classes with easy AoE. Streaks, Leaps, Dawnbreakers, Curse, etc etc - all completely delete nightblades. No other class can be completely shut out of their primary defense leaving them in such an easy-kill vulnerable state.

With this change, all these things would still expose and damage the nightblade, but they wouldn't have the kind of absolute advantage over Cloak that they currently have.

So if a Sorc Streaks you, they break your Cloak and deal full damage, but they have to Streak you again or use another ability if they want to land a CC.

Thoughts?

Wouldn't change any of the issues which the class has tbh (low healing, low pressure, super telegraphed burst, buggy Cloak).

kalunte · May 2020

@Decimus hi mate, i was just thinking about adding stampede to your azurblight setup for stamsorc

Merciless Charge: This set now continuously activates from Stampede through bar swap.

see you ig

sproattt · May 2020

ne.ga.kurai_ESO wrote: »

Big ups to the OP lmao :

Veiled Strike:

This ability and its morphs now stun and set targets Off Balance when used from the flank of an enemy, rather than when you are stealthed or invisible. This change was done to offset the loss of the ability to activate this portion of the attack with the recent fixes to Heavy Attacks properly breaking invisibility.

This is big big NERF, in every way you look at it. I read it as and correct me if I'm wrong, we can't HA SA from cloak nor can we cloak SA which stuns and sets off balance.