Huge Hidden Stamblade PvP Nerf

Qbiken

nqvarihs wrote: »

well if they can "fix" this, can they fix cloak breaking from enemy gap closers, lights/heavy attacks and various other skills/projectiles? (and also fix the lag/desyncs which make landing incap/exec/assassins scourge the same experience as rolling a dice) @ZOS pretty please

Sorry, counterplay is only important as long as you´re not the nightblade

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka

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nublife01

nightblade main here. quit the game until i see better changes. really not looking forward to having to play around stahn and clever alchemist set next patch however. stahn and the invis spring passive are going to make pvp cancer.

Aznox

You can't deny that a mechanic that has been in the game for years - even if unexpected - is now an integral part of the game's balance.

Of course in a perfect world this would be compensated somewhere else in a well thought process, but it seems highly probable that this change was unintended, and devs having other things to focus on than class balance for this patch, the quickest fix could possibly be to emulate the original mechanic while nightblades wait for a fair trade-off.

At the very least a developer comment is needed on this subject.

mav1234

I agree on the general importance of fixing purported bugs.

But if a bug is left in the game for years AND the class is basically balanced around it to be competitive in most scenarios, and let's be real in that it is, removing it needs to compensate the class somehow. Stamblade is not a great class already outside of ganking unprepared people in Cyro, and this will certainly set the class back in other engagements.

Compensation could occur with:
1) Some kind of buff to the amount of damage from the Master Assassin (invisibility weapon/spell damage increase), to make surprise attack an ability that can stand on its own as a large spike out of cloak (without the need to weave ahead of it like now).
2) Allowing the buffs granted by Invisibility (e.g. Master Assassin and stun on Surprise/Concealed) to persist for, say, 3 seconds after leaving cloak, which would allow for a similar style of gameplay as exists now on leave in terms of the heavy weave, but a bit more counterplay for players (as the NB will not be invisible during it), and making a night blade particularly deadly in a window after cloak (which again offers counter play opportunities for players while providing nbs a bit of a buff).

I favor #2 personally.

Lapin_Logic

Aznox wrote: »

You can't deny that a mechanic that has been in the game for years - even if unexpected - is now an integral part of the game's balance.

Of course in a perfect world this would be compensated somewhere else in a well thought process, but it seems highly probable that this change was unintended, and devs having other things to focus on than class balance for this patch, the quickest fix could possibly be to emulate the original mechanic while nightblades wait for a fair trade-off.

At the very least a developer comment is needed on this subject.

"Fixing the game" and "The game working as intended" is integral to the game.
leaving a frustrating broken element in the game leads to lazy game play and frustrations to your opponent.

To put this "iT's bEeN iN tHe GamE fOr 6 yEaRs" to bed, think on this, If there was a wall breach in Cyrodiil that players could access that made them invulnerable but able to shoot out and get kills, you think the devs should just leave it?

The problem is not this Fix, the problem is the NB having a bad stun, the devs now also need to fix the stun... or you run a different stun.

x48rph

Decimus wrote: »

They take away key skill interactions, give nothing in return and expect an already semi-crippled class to still be playable - it doesn't work that way.

Imagine thinking ZOS actually cares if you play the class. Their very targeted destruction of it since the new "team" took over proves different. It's like they had a bone to pick with nightblades and set about destroying the class on purpose so not even the noobiest person would wish to play it.

Aedaryl

This is completly stupid.

Without heavy attack weave + stun being possible, stamblade will be as good as magblade in PvP.

This mean completly useless.

I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

Aznox

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

leaving a frustrating broken element in the game leads to lazy game play and frustrations to your opponent.

Can you describe how this mechanic has been frustrating you so much ? Help me understand please.

Luckylancer

Mayrael wrote: »

As a NB main I say it's good. Bugs shouldn't be the way to gain power. Instead we should ask for buffs and elgit ways of getting stronger.

Your argument dont make sense. Animation cancel is in this category too. Do you want it to be fixed too? I dont.

Boht animation cancel and doing heavy atack from stealth was a part of this game. It is feature now.

artal

Aznox wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

leaving a frustrating broken element in the game leads to lazy game play and frustrations to your opponent.

Can you describe how this mechanic has been frustrating you so much ? Help me understand please.

Yea I'm also interested how this was so frustrating to him or anyone else?
Before Decimus started this topic nobody ever complained about this or ever mention this in bug context.

Nb is in very bad spot at the moment and this is integral part of its arsenal, if you take this away this class is absolutely gimped.
Something needs to be done and devs needs to give us their input on this

MusCanus

artal wrote: »

devs needs to give us their input on this

Aznox wrote: »

At the very least a developer comment is needed on this subject.

But they just can't. Haven't you heard the mod? They want posts to be "constructive". They can't say anything remotely resembling a constructive answer, cause even their own patch notes don't make much sense. You can't answer to something you don't even understand.

universal_wrath

Decimus wrote: »

Melee heavy attacks from cloak now break your cloak on PTS.

What this essentially means is that every high end nightblade who actually heavy weaves into their Surprise Attack stun lost about 4-5k burst damage in noCP and the sustain associated with the heavy attack weaves.

While this change is not listed on the patch notes, I would guess this following line is what has caused the issue:

Fixed an issue where partially charged Heavy Attacks, or “Medium Attacks,” were not considered Direct Damage.

Class was doing pretty bad already, especially in group PvP - if this isn't the nail in the coffin I don't know what is.

This nerf hits stamina NB players worse than the Surprise Attack change, worse than Incap cast time, worse than removing Minor Berserk from Relentless, worse than making casting Vigor break cloak and worse than Ambush breaking cloak.

Something better be done.

Good, crutching on a bug will not get you anywhere. Since they fixed this bug, they might also fix other bugs related to cloak. Now you can properly ask for buffs to nightblade, but I'm know that as long as nightblade has cloak, it will stay as it is. Same thing happened with stamsorc, instead of reowrking the class, they just keep buffing streak like stamsorc is only streak and nothing else, nightblade it the same in this way.

Aznox

They can't say anything remotely resembling a constructive answer, cause even their own patch notes don't make much sense. You can't answer to something you don't even understand.

Surely your intervention is constructive and will give Devs motivation to take part in this discussion ...

Taktak

that's good because stealth in this game should be defensive utility not offensive

this is fix for nb cloak

MusCanus

Aznox wrote: »

They can't say anything remotely resembling a constructive answer, cause even their own patch notes don't make much sense. You can't answer to something you don't even understand.

Surely your intervention is constructive and will give Devs motivation to take part in this discussion ...

Lol, can you link the latest discussion they did take part in? I told why they don't do that. At least they're following their forum rules, I can respect that.

universal_wrath

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

Hey would you look at that! Nightblade got nerfed again!

calling bug fix a nerf .....

Taktak

universal_wrath wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Melee heavy attacks from cloak now break your cloak on PTS.

What this essentially means is that every high end nightblade who actually heavy weaves into their Surprise Attack stun lost about 4-5k burst damage in noCP and the sustain associated with the heavy attack weaves.

While this change is not listed on the patch notes, I would guess this following line is what has caused the issue:

Fixed an issue where partially charged Heavy Attacks, or “Medium Attacks,” were not considered Direct Damage.

Class was doing pretty bad already, especially in group PvP - if this isn't the nail in the coffin I don't know what is.

This nerf hits stamina NB players worse than the Surprise Attack change, worse than Incap cast time, worse than removing Minor Berserk from Relentless, worse than making casting Vigor break cloak and worse than Ambush breaking cloak.

Something better be done.

Good, crutching on a bug will not get you anywhere. Since they fixed this bug, they might also fix other bugs related to cloak. Now you can properly ask for buffs to nightblade, but I'm know that as long as nightblade has cloak, it will stay as it is. Same thing happened with stamsorc, instead of reowrking the class, they just keep buffing streak like stamsorc is only streak and nothing else, nightblade it the same in this way.

Agree 💯%

Decimus

universal_wrath wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Melee heavy attacks from cloak now break your cloak on PTS.

What this essentially means is that every high end nightblade who actually heavy weaves into their Surprise Attack stun lost about 4-5k burst damage in noCP and the sustain associated with the heavy attack weaves.

While this change is not listed on the patch notes, I would guess this following line is what has caused the issue:

Fixed an issue where partially charged Heavy Attacks, or “Medium Attacks,” were not considered Direct Damage.

Class was doing pretty bad already, especially in group PvP - if this isn't the nail in the coffin I don't know what is.

This nerf hits stamina NB players worse than the Surprise Attack change, worse than Incap cast time, worse than removing Minor Berserk from Relentless, worse than making casting Vigor break cloak and worse than Ambush breaking cloak.

Something better be done.

Good, crutching on a bug will not get you anywhere. Since they fixed this bug, they might also fix other bugs related to cloak. Now you can properly ask for buffs to nightblade, but I'm know that as long as nightblade has cloak, it will stay as it is. Same thing happened with stamsorc, instead of reowrking the class, they just keep buffing streak like stamsorc is only streak and nothing else, nightblade it the same in this way.

"Bug" - did you know that light attack weaving/animation canceling wasn't an intended feature when the game was released? Yet it was left there because it made the game better instead of otherwise around, and is now part of the base game.

It is the same with cloak heavy weaves.


Also it is funny you think cloak is something that is overpowered right now; if that were the case surely top tier NBs wouldn't be quitting the game left and right, people wouldn't be cursing when they get a NB in their team in BGs and the vast majority of PvP population wouldn't consider them sub-par?

These days you'd be lucky to not get uncloaked by a gap closer or a random execute, light attack, bound armaments etc etc. I don't see any of the "heavy attack from cloak is op" people bringing up those actual bugs.

I'd also be very interested in hearing when they last buffed cloak at all, in Greymoor that skill will be more trivial than ever as every vampire will have access to invisibility.

It's very disingenuous to suggest that cloak is something that has been buffed many times, when almost everything thrown at it over the 6 years of this game's existence has been a nerf.

Taktak wrote: »

that's good because stealth in this game should be defensive utility not offensive

this is fix for nb cloak

Taktak aren't you the one always complaining when you get a NB in your team?

I'll tell you why: because 99% of NBs don't know how to play the class and do precisely what you suggest: only use cloak as a defensive tool to spam over and over and over again, doing no damage whatsoever (because they quite simply can't without utilizing cloak offensively) and being a liability to their team in BGs.

Attacking with Surprise Attack while Sneaking or invisible stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

^This is on the tooltip of Surprise Attack for a reason, it has never been the intention that NBs should be a class that only runs away or plays like a brawler rather than an assassin.

universal_wrath

Decimus wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Melee heavy attacks from cloak now break your cloak on PTS.

What this essentially means is that every high end nightblade who actually heavy weaves into their Surprise Attack stun lost about 4-5k burst damage in noCP and the sustain associated with the heavy attack weaves.

While this change is not listed on the patch notes, I would guess this following line is what has caused the issue:

Fixed an issue where partially charged Heavy Attacks, or “Medium Attacks,” were not considered Direct Damage.

Class was doing pretty bad already, especially in group PvP - if this isn't the nail in the coffin I don't know what is.

This nerf hits stamina NB players worse than the Surprise Attack change, worse than Incap cast time, worse than removing Minor Berserk from Relentless, worse than making casting Vigor break cloak and worse than Ambush breaking cloak.

Something better be done.

Good, crutching on a bug will not get you anywhere. Since they fixed this bug, they might also fix other bugs related to cloak. Now you can properly ask for buffs to nightblade, but I'm know that as long as nightblade has cloak, it will stay as it is. Same thing happened with stamsorc, instead of reowrking the class, they just keep buffing streak like stamsorc is only streak and nothing else, nightblade it the same in this way.

"Bug" - did you know that light attack weaving/animation canceling wasn't an intended feature when the game was released? Yet it was left there because it made the game better instead of otherwise around, and is now part of the base game.

It is the same with cloak heavy weaves.


Also it is funny you think cloak is something that is overpowered right now; if that were the case surely top tier NBs wouldn't be quitting the game left and right, people wouldn't be cursing when they get a NB in their team in BGs and the vast majority of PvP population wouldn't consider them sub-par?

These days you'd be lucky to not get uncloaked by a gap closer or a random execute, light attack, bound armaments etc etc. I don't see any of the "heavy attack from cloak is op" people bringing up those actual bugs.

I'd also be very interested in hearing when they last buffed cloak at all, in Greymoor that skill will be more trivial than ever as every vampire will have access to invisibility.

It's very disingenuous to suggest that cloak is something that has been buffed many times, when almost everything thrown at it over the 6 years of this game's existence has been a nerf.

Taktak wrote: »

that's good because stealth in this game should be defensive utility not offensive

this is fix for nb cloak

Taktak aren't you the one always complaining when you get a NB in your team?

I'll tell you why: because 99% of NBs don't know how to play the class and do precisely what you suggest: only use cloak as a defensive tool to spam over and over and over again, doing no damage whatsoever (because they quite simply can't without utilizing cloak offensively) and being a liability to their team in BGs.

Attacking with Surprise Attack while Sneaking or invisible stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

^This is on the tooltip of Surprise Attack for a reason, it has never been the intention that NBs should be a class that only runs away or plays like a brawler rather than an assassin.

I never said that cloak is overpowered, I said as long as nighblades has cloak, they will get the same treatment as stamsorc will streak. now since you mentioned it, Cloak is overpower if it did not bug out same with streak, that is why both classes should not revolve around 1 skill that is bound for changes. one patch they buff streak and stamsorc is good, next patch they nerf it and stamsorc is no good and so on and on. Nightblades will not be balanced properly if people still cling to cloak, now everyone have another cloak via vamp

MusCanus

The logic:
1. There is an unintended mechanic of LA cancelling that has been there from the start. A lot of people were against it, a lot of people are used to it and like it. The devs didn't know how to fix it anyway, so it is now a feature. Everyone who still wants it to be fixed is a scrub who just can't use it.
2. There is an unintended mechanic of HA cancelling into SA from cloak that has been there from the start. Zero people were against it, NB players are used to it and like it. The devs didn't know how to fix it, or if it even existed, but accidentally (lol) a way has been found how to get rid of this mechanic. Let's fix it ASAP! Everyone who wants it to stay is looking for a crutch.

But enough of a beating a dead horse for today.

Strider__Roshin

universal_wrath wrote: »

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

Hey would you look at that! Nightblade got nerfed again!

calling bug fix a nerf .....

Last week it was a mechanic, and now suddenly it's a bug lol. I wonder how people will feel once they fix the shield stacking "bug"

ne.ga.kurai_ESO

- Give Surprise Attack 15% armor reduction while hitting from sides / back (this is still less than Major Fracture with 33k resists)
- After a successful Surprise Attack from sides / back while stealthed turn Surprise Attack into Creeping Death... dealing SA dmg * 1.5 and Silencing target for 2sec.
- After a successful Surprise Attack from sides / back while stealthed stun target for 3sec and also perform an 8m range PBAOE Disorient (remember this one? it's a classic mesmerize... "stun" that breaks on damage) for 10 seconds
- Add 25-50% bonus damage hitting Surprise Attack from sides / back while stealthed
- Add 70% 1-2 sec snare from back /sides if not sneaking / invis


Pick one, pick all. How hard is it to fix a *** class and make it fun?

killingspreeb16_ESO

universal_wrath wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Melee heavy attacks from cloak now break your cloak on PTS.

What this essentially means is that every high end nightblade who actually heavy weaves into their Surprise Attack stun lost about 4-5k burst damage in noCP and the sustain associated with the heavy attack weaves.

While this change is not listed on the patch notes, I would guess this following line is what has caused the issue:

Fixed an issue where partially charged Heavy Attacks, or “Medium Attacks,” were not considered Direct Damage.

Class was doing pretty bad already, especially in group PvP - if this isn't the nail in the coffin I don't know what is.

This nerf hits stamina NB players worse than the Surprise Attack change, worse than Incap cast time, worse than removing Minor Berserk from Relentless, worse than making casting Vigor break cloak and worse than Ambush breaking cloak.

Something better be done.

Good, crutching on a bug will not get you anywhere. Since they fixed this bug, they might also fix other bugs related to cloak. Now you can properly ask for buffs to nightblade, but I'm know that as long as nightblade has cloak, it will stay as it is. Same thing happened with stamsorc, instead of reowrking the class, they just keep buffing streak like stamsorc is only streak and nothing else, nightblade it the same in this way.

"Bug" - did you know that light attack weaving/animation canceling wasn't an intended feature when the game was released? Yet it was left there because it made the game better instead of otherwise around, and is now part of the base game.

It is the same with cloak heavy weaves.


Also it is funny you think cloak is something that is overpowered right now; if that were the case surely top tier NBs wouldn't be quitting the game left and right, people wouldn't be cursing when they get a NB in their team in BGs and the vast majority of PvP population wouldn't consider them sub-par?

These days you'd be lucky to not get uncloaked by a gap closer or a random execute, light attack, bound armaments etc etc. I don't see any of the "heavy attack from cloak is op" people bringing up those actual bugs.

I'd also be very interested in hearing when they last buffed cloak at all, in Greymoor that skill will be more trivial than ever as every vampire will have access to invisibility.

It's very disingenuous to suggest that cloak is something that has been buffed many times, when almost everything thrown at it over the 6 years of this game's existence has been a nerf.

Taktak wrote: »

that's good because stealth in this game should be defensive utility not offensive

this is fix for nb cloak

Taktak aren't you the one always complaining when you get a NB in your team?

I'll tell you why: because 99% of NBs don't know how to play the class and do precisely what you suggest: only use cloak as a defensive tool to spam over and over and over again, doing no damage whatsoever (because they quite simply can't without utilizing cloak offensively) and being a liability to their team in BGs.

Attacking with Surprise Attack while Sneaking or invisible stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

^This is on the tooltip of Surprise Attack for a reason, it has never been the intention that NBs should be a class that only runs away or plays like a brawler rather than an assassin.

I never said that cloak is overpowered, I said as long as nighblades has cloak, they will get the same treatment as stamsorc will streak. now since you mentioned it, Cloak is overpower if it did not bug out same with streak, that is why both classes should not revolve around 1 skill that is bound for changes. one patch they buff streak and stamsorc is good, next patch they nerf it and stamsorc is no good and so on and on. Nightblades will not be balanced properly if people still cling to cloak, now everyone have another cloak via vamp

This make no sense,you said that NB will be always bad because of cloak like stamsorc because of streak but unlike NB where both Magika/Stamina are in a bad place(esp magika)magsorc is actually in a good spost,always have been and following your logic magsorc should be in the trash bin aswell thanks to streak.
Stop using bad excuse to try to get rid/nerf cloak.

Mayrael wrote: »

As a NB main I say it's good. Bugs shouldn't be the way to gain power. Instead we should ask for buffs and elgit ways of getting stronger.

Usually i would agree with this logic,if this would have been "fixed" when the class was top tier/good no one would have complained since this was just giving an extra(uninteded if you want)advantage to a class that was alredy good.

But right now Nb in general are in bad spot,so if you change one one the few things NB can use to win a fight with nothing in return we make stamblade as bad as magebalde.
They could have changed this when they also buffed NB a little bit atleast,it's not like the forum is exploding with "nerf nb thread".

This is alredy the second patch with no class change and we get another change that make our alredy bad class even worse and if we are lucky we might get a buff 3 month's after greymoor.

D3N7157

Good, now cost increase on cloak pls

Tommy_The_Gun

D3N7157 wrote: »

Good, now cost increase on cloak pls

Yeah, whatever, would be kinda pointless anyway as that damn thing is soo bugged that everything breaks it. LA, HA, single target skills, dots... pretty much everything. It has gotten to a point that many NBs simply unslotted it and stopped using it lol.

WhyMustItBe

Decimus wrote: »

A very easy fix to this whole situation would be to let Surprise Attack still stun/off balance target 1-2s after coming out of invisibility.

That seems reasonable. The current proposed vampire passives give a damage boost for 6 seconds after coming out of stealth, invisibility, or mist form. It seems only fair that NB would retain their unique class passive buff similarly for a period of at least 2-3 seconds after leaving stealth, invisibility, etc.

Lapin_Logic

Aznox wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

leaving a frustrating broken element in the game leads to lazy game play and frustrations to your opponent.

Can you describe how this mechanic has been frustrating you so much ? Help me understand please.

Every other class is visible when they apply their "heavy plus stun plus damage spammable" , this gives the ability to counterplay because you can see them prepping and the effects they have active etc.

Nightblades can "heavy plus stun plus damage spammable" while totally invisible, do I really need to spell out the zero counterplay and frustration of anyone on the receiving end.

Some Nightblades want to do this from stealth, remain in stealth, and then be able to instantly recloak and run away at swift sprint top speed if they fail to Gank, and then take to the forum if one of the million AOE skills on the battlefield breaks our cloak.

Nightblades in a lore friendly way "Strike From the shadows, and have the element of surprise, not be an untouchable and invisible ghost that fires off nukes, no it is not a part of class identity even if you did mod Skyrim with one shot arrows and 1000% stealth skill.
This is an MMO and MMO's need balance or players leave because it is a clown game tuned for who ever types loudest.

Lapin_Logic

Decimus wrote: »

"Bug" - did you know that light attack weaving/animation canceling wasn't an intended feature when the game was released? Yet it was left there because it made the game better instead of otherwise around, and is now part of the base game.

[snip] trying to keep weaving and animation cancelling in the game is why Cyrodiil is Laggy, and why combat fails to trigger skills smoothly and after the client changed from "Client says so server do" (why you got desyncs and magic deaths) to a "Call and response" (where the client now receives server validation on skill) is why sometimes you stand there for 10 seconds unable to even heavy attack while your stamina bar depletes.

combat should have been fixed and balanced around good buff management with shorter buff duration on GCD in combat for your damage burst, would have still took skill and been an action MMO but the servers wouldn't have been swamped with spamming Light attack Bash plus skill plus dodge Multiple times a second from each player.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

nqvarihs

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Every other class is visible when they apply their "heavy plus stun plus damage spammable" , this gives the ability to counterplay because you can see them prepping and the effects they have active etc.

other classes are visible because they don't have cloak, duh

more seriously though,

Nightblades can "heavy plus stun plus damage spammable" while totally invisible, do I really need to spell out the zero counterplay and frustration of anyone on the receiving end.
Some Nightblades want to do this from stealth, remain in stealth, and then be able to instantly recloak and run away at swift sprint top speed if they fail to Gank, and then take to the forum if one of the million AOE skills on the battlefield breaks our cloak.

have you like, ever played nightblade? probably not. guess what, casting your spammable ends invisibility, you don't get to "remain in stealth". as for the counterplay, all the burst that nightblade has access to is dodgeable/blockable. also you can break free after a stun, but of course if it takes you a full 3 seconds to do it, then you just deserve to get killed. and honestly if you can't kill a nightblade after a failed gank with all the tools at your disposal to counter cloak, maybe you should question yourself (detect pot, inner light, camo hunter, aoe's). oh, and cloak is actually broken right now, but i guess you wouldn't know since you don't seem to play nb (just light attack/use a gap closer and no more cloak problems).

Nightblades in a lore friendly way "Strike From the shadows, and have the element of surprise, not be an untouchable and invisible ghost that fires off nukes, no it is not a part of class identity even if you did mod Skyrim with one shot arrows and 1000% stealth skill.

what the hell does this mean? are you thinking of bombing? because thats not even close to comparable to how the class plays normally. i would use a strawman emote but sadly there's none on this forum

This is an MMO and MMO's need balance or players leave because it is a clown game tuned for who ever types loudest.

yeah and right now there's a few that still somehow think nightblade is op and needs nerfs

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

[snip] trying to keep weaving and animation cancelling in the game is why Cyrodiil is Laggy, and why combat fails to trigger skills smoothly and after the client changed from "Client says so server do" (why you got desyncs and magic deaths) to a "Call and response" (where the client now receives server validation on skill) is why sometimes you stand there for 10 seconds unable to even heavy attack while your stamina bar depletes.

combat should have been fixed and balanced around good buff management with shorter buff duration on GCD in combat for your damage burst, would have still took skill and been an action MMO but the servers wouldn't have been swamped with spamming Light attack Bash plus skill plus dodge Multiple times a second from each player.

[snip]

are people actually blaming the lag on anim cancel in 2020? also in case you haven't noticed the game isn't only laggy in cyrodiil, and part of that is because we went from client based calculations to server based as they did with u25 which increased the health/position desyncs (to the point that its now common to get desynced in bgs). didnt they do that because of CE? also if the combat is the reason the game is lagging, please explain why the performance is terrible whenever there's more than 20 people in the same place, even without combat? (i have min 150ping in vivec in prime time)