Huge Hidden Stamblade PvP Nerf

Decimus

Edit: NB saved? 6.0.2 Patch Note:

Shadow
Veiled Strike: This ability and its morphs now stun and set targets Off Balance when used from the flank of an enemy, rather than when you are stealthed or invisible. This change was done to offset the loss of the ability to activate this portion of the attack with the recent fixes to Heavy Attacks properly breaking invisibility.

Old post:
Melee heavy attacks from cloak now break your cloak on PTS.

What this essentially means is that every high end nightblade who actually heavy weaves into their Surprise Attack stun lost about 4-5k burst damage in noCP and the sustain associated with the heavy attack weaves.

While this change is not listed on the patch notes, I would guess this following line is what has caused the issue:

Fixed an issue where partially charged Heavy Attacks, or “Medium Attacks,” were not considered Direct Damage.

Class was doing pretty bad already, especially in group PvP - if this isn't the nail in the coffin I don't know what is.

This nerf hits stamina NB players worse than the Surprise Attack change, worse than Incap cast time, worse than removing Minor Berserk from Relentless, worse than making casting Vigor break cloak and worse than Ambush breaking cloak.

Something better be done.

Mayrael

As a NB main I say it's good. Bugs shouldn't be the way to gain power. Instead we should ask for buffs and elgit ways of getting stronger.

Decimus

Mayrael wrote: »

As a NB main I say it's good. Bugs shouldn't be the way to gain power. Instead we should ask for buffs and elgit ways of getting stronger.

Well, unfortunately high-end stamblade gameplay 100% revolves around this "bug" (which has been in the game for as long as I can remember).

Removing it is the equivalent of straight up detonating the foundation a house stands on rather than fixing the flaws in it.


You can keep asking for buffs that'll never come - I'm asking for atleast a playable class like we have on Live.

Aztlan

Yikes. That should definitely be reverted.

Thedragonlolitucker

Decimus wrote: »

Melee heavy attacks from cloak now break your cloak on PTS.

What this essentially means is that every high end nightblade who actually heavy weaves into their Surprise Attack stun lost about 4-5k burst damage in noCP and the sustain associated with the heavy attack weaves.

While this change is not listed on the patch notes, I would guess this following line is what has caused the issue:

Fixed an issue where partially charged Heavy Attacks, or “Medium Attacks,” were not considered Direct Damage.

Class was doing pretty bad already, especially in group PvP - if this isn't the nail in the coffin I don't know what is.

This nerf hits stamina NB players worse than the Surprise Attack change, worse than Incap cast time, worse than removing Minor Berserk from Relentless, worse than making casting Vigor break cloak and worse than Ambush breaking cloak.

Something better be done.

i noticed this dueling on pts

brandonv516

Decimus wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

As a NB main I say it's good. Bugs shouldn't be the way to gain power. Instead we should ask for buffs and elgit ways of getting stronger.

Well, unfortunately high-end stamblade gameplay 100% revolves around this "bug" (which has been in the game for as long as I can remember).

Removing it is the equivalent of straight up detonating the foundation a house stands on rather than fixing the flaws in it.


You can keep asking for buffs that'll never come - I'm asking for atleast a playable class like we have on Live.

It also revolves around Snipe desyncs but that's not right either.

I don't disagree that this hurts StamNB. However, the class (as a whole) needs to be elevated not by sets and bugs but by considerable skill and passive buffs.

Mayrael

Decimus wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

As a NB main I say it's good. Bugs shouldn't be the way to gain power. Instead we should ask for buffs and elgit ways of getting stronger.

Well, unfortunately high-end stamblade gameplay 100% revolves around this "bug" (which has been in the game for as long as I can remember).

Removing it is the equivalent of straight up detonating the foundation a house stands on rather than fixing the flaws in it.


You can keep asking for buffs that'll never come - I'm asking for atleast a playable class like we have on Live.

Mate I know it's really hopeless, my main is magicka NB and I'm waiting for buffs for like 2 years, but I will always support bug fixing. It's terrible that NBs from best stealth/ganking spec became laughable parody of a class, all vampire non blades will be even better now than us in this matter, but we need buffs not bugs.

Decimus

brandonv516 wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

As a NB main I say it's good. Bugs shouldn't be the way to gain power. Instead we should ask for buffs and elgit ways of getting stronger.

Well, unfortunately high-end stamblade gameplay 100% revolves around this "bug" (which has been in the game for as long as I can remember).

Removing it is the equivalent of straight up detonating the foundation a house stands on rather than fixing the flaws in it.


You can keep asking for buffs that'll never come - I'm asking for atleast a playable class like we have on Live.

It also revolves around Snipe desyncs but that's not right either.

I don't disagree that this hurts StamNB. However, the class (as a whole) needs to be elevated not by sets and bugs but by considerable skill and passive buffs.

Well guess what even more stamblades will be casting from cloak when they can no longer weave heavy attacks for the extra burst...

We'll probably also see Dizzying Swing completely replace Surprise Attack as spammable/CC, since that's still an ability you can cast while cloaked for good burst out of invisibility - as if there weren't enough dizzy swing spammers already.

Mayrael wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

As a NB main I say it's good. Bugs shouldn't be the way to gain power. Instead we should ask for buffs and elgit ways of getting stronger.

Well, unfortunately high-end stamblade gameplay 100% revolves around this "bug" (which has been in the game for as long as I can remember).

Removing it is the equivalent of straight up detonating the foundation a house stands on rather than fixing the flaws in it.


You can keep asking for buffs that'll never come - I'm asking for atleast a playable class like we have on Live.

Mate I know it's really hopeless, my main is magicka NB and I'm waiting for buffs for like 2 years, but I will always support bug fixing. It's terrible that NBs from best stealth/ganking spec became laughable parody of a class, all vampire non blades will be even better now than us in this matter, but we need buffs not bugs.

I know you're a magicka NB main, otherwise you wouldn't be writing this nonsense.


Weaving heavy attacks right now on a stamblade isn't "abusing bugs", it is part of the bloody gameplay, has been for years.

We need more interactions & gameplay options while in cloak than just running away or spamming snipe from 40m away, but instead Zenimax is taking one of the few existing skill oriented gameplay options away with this change.

What even makes people categorize this combo as "a bug"? It might as well have been made an official part of NB gameplay and no one would've complained.


A very easy fix to this whole situation would be to let Surprise Attack still stun/off balance target 1-2s after coming out of invisibility.

Do we see this in the patch notes? No, we don't - which just indicates that Zenimax isn't really aware how stamblade plays in PvP and that is the whole reason for this thread.


They take away key skill interactions, give nothing in return and expect an already semi-crippled class to still be playable - it doesn't work that way.

Finedaible

FFS, what is there left to nerf in Nightblades's toolkit? They already killed the class, this is just pissing on the grave at this point.

brandonv516

Curious how this works with heavy inferno attacks. Anyone tested that?

nqvarihs

brandonv516 wrote: »

Curious how this works with heavy inferno attacks. Anyone tested that?

breaks the cloak, sa/concealed doesnt stun/off balance

Ragnaroek93

Who's even playing Nightblade at this point LOL

John_Falstaff

Frankly? I'm not even sure if I want it reverted at this point. Just tired, best they destroy the class completely and utmostly at this point. The sooner they'll drive the last husks of it into the ground, the sooner we'll come to the point where there's no other way but up.

Lapin_Logic

Decimus wrote: »

Melee heavy attacks from cloak now break your cloak on PTS. Something better be done.

...... Soooo your saying that you think Night Blades should be able to walk up to someone in PVP "In cloak" land a full heavy and Still be in cloak?

You are only meant to have the 'Element of surprise' not be a phantasm.

Night Blades will have to follow the logic that if you walk like a glass canon then prepare to be smashed, just like if a DK or any other class walked through Cyrodiil wearing tissue paper resistance.

Strider__Roshin

Hey would you look at that! Nightblade got nerfed again!

Rianai

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Who's even playing Nightblade at this point LOL

Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood roleplayers, Legolas "i'll defend this keep from the top of those walls with my superior archery skills" roleplayers, material gatherer and crafter ... ZOS has statistics and apparently those numbers show the class is still in a very good state. How dare you question the all knowing devs.

Yiko

This + the Bash nerf so that bad players feel less worse about themselves may be the final nail in the coffin for stamblade.

Bash was also just recently balanced several times, right? They did Sword and Board tuning on it.. and then they made Bash scale with Max Mag and Spell Damage. In what world was it not intended to do damage? NB needs SERIOUS help in terms of raw buffs, but it's also sad that they're nerfing specific niche mechanics like HA -> SA from Cloak for Stun + Off balance or Bash weaving when going for a kill. Legitimately just dumbing the game down while making low-skill playstyles more effective.

Decimus

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Melee heavy attacks from cloak now break your cloak on PTS. Something better be done.

...... Soooo your saying that you think Night Blades should be able to walk up to someone in PVP "In cloak" land a full heavy and Still be in cloak?

You are only meant to have the 'Element of surprise' not be a phantasm.

Night Blades will have to follow the logic that if you walk like a glass canon then prepare to be smashed, just like if a DK or any other class walked through Cyrodiil wearing tissue paper resistance.

This has nothing to do with playing/not playing a glass cannon or even necessarily about remaining invisible after a heavy attack - this is about being able to stun after a (heavy attack, in this case) weave.

If you do not weave a light attack (or better yet, heavy attack) before your CC ability, your burst damage is severely limited. This is the case on any class, not just nightblade. Glass cannon or not a glass cannon.


On NB what currently allows this interaction is the fact that a melee Heavy Attack does not break your Cloak, allowing you to weave that Heavy Attack into a Surprise Attack stun as you're still cloaked when the SA lands and the ability's stun+off balance condition is landing the ability from stealth. Not 0,1s after you come out of stealth. From stealth.

So this gets you the burst+CC as a Nightblade, much like 3rd hit of Stonefist would (which you can weave with a light or heavy), or how Dizzy swing does when hitting off balance target (or if you just do a medium weave after the Dizzy & stun people with that), or how you can still weave a light/heavy into flame clench, rune cage, magnum shot etc etc.


I hope this clears things up.

evoniee

it should not work in the first place. sometimes (in live) heavy attack into SA when cloak still off balance and stun enemy. it is a bug or exploit in the first place, im not doing it all the time because it is not reliable.

It is not a direct changes to nightblade anyway, it just happen because the only class benefit / abusing this is nb.

Decimus

evoniee wrote: »

it should not work in the first place. sometimes (in live) heavy attack into SA when cloak still off balance and stun enemy. it is a bug or exploit in the first place, im not doing it all the time because it is not reliable.

It is not a direct changes to nightblade anyway, it just happen because the only class benefit / abusing this is nb.

Is it a bug or an exploit if it has been in the game for 6 years? At that point we're talking about something fundamental that shapes the gameplay of the class.

Just because you don't understand how it works doesn't make it a "bug/exploit that shouldn't be in the game" (hint: it works flawlessly as long as you don't hit someone who's reflecting damage, causing your cloak to break before Surprise Attack can land).

And no offense to anyone (this is just a general observation), but that is the vibe I get from a lot of posts: "I don't know how that works/I can't do that, remove it from the game please so other players who do know can't do it" - it's basically the animation canceling, bash weaving, bunnyhopping/speed jumping etc hatred all over again.


And yes, you're absolutely right: it is not a direct change to nightblade (after all, other classes can just use invis pot right?) - it is an indirect one, but that does not make it any less impactful on a class that is already in a bad place.

Mayrael

Decimus wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

As a NB main I say it's good. Bugs shouldn't be the way to gain power. Instead we should ask for buffs and elgit ways of getting stronger.

Well, unfortunately high-end stamblade gameplay 100% revolves around this "bug" (which has been in the game for as long as I can remember).

Removing it is the equivalent of straight up detonating the foundation a house stands on rather than fixing the flaws in it.


You can keep asking for buffs that'll never come - I'm asking for atleast a playable class like we have on Live.

It also revolves around Snipe desyncs but that's not right either.

I don't disagree that this hurts StamNB. However, the class (as a whole) needs to be elevated not by sets and bugs but by considerable skill and passive buffs.

Well guess what even more stamblades will be casting from cloak when they can no longer weave heavy attacks for the extra burst...

We'll probably also see Dizzying Swing completely replace Surprise Attack as spammable/CC, since that's still an ability you can cast while cloaked for good burst out of invisibility - as if there weren't enough dizzy swing spammers already.

Mayrael wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

As a NB main I say it's good. Bugs shouldn't be the way to gain power. Instead we should ask for buffs and elgit ways of getting stronger.

Well, unfortunately high-end stamblade gameplay 100% revolves around this "bug" (which has been in the game for as long as I can remember).

Removing it is the equivalent of straight up detonating the foundation a house stands on rather than fixing the flaws in it.


You can keep asking for buffs that'll never come - I'm asking for atleast a playable class like we have on Live.

Mate I know it's really hopeless, my main is magicka NB and I'm waiting for buffs for like 2 years, but I will always support bug fixing. It's terrible that NBs from best stealth/ganking spec became laughable parody of a class, all vampire non blades will be even better now than us in this matter, but we need buffs not bugs.

I know you're a magicka NB main, otherwise you wouldn't be writing this nonsense.


Weaving heavy attacks right now on a stamblade isn't "abusing bugs", it is part of the bloody gameplay, has been for years.

We need more interactions & gameplay options while in cloak than just running away or spamming snipe from 40m away, but instead Zenimax is taking one of the few existing skill oriented gameplay options away with this change.

What even makes people categorize this combo as "a bug"? It might as well have been made an official part of NB gameplay and no one would've complained.


A very easy fix to this whole situation would be to let Surprise Attack still stun/off balance target 1-2s after coming out of invisibility.

Do we see this in the patch notes? No, we don't - which just indicates that Zenimax isn't really aware how stamblade plays in PvP and that is the whole reason for this thread.


They take away key skill interactions, give nothing in return and expect an already semi-crippled class to still be playable - it doesn't work that way.

Oh please don't make it personal What nonsense do I write there?

You see? You come up with solution on your own, now just try to convince devs to implement it

Joinovikova

ZOS fix my bug expliot ...need to go to forum to ask for revert Fix... anyway upcoming patch is huge direct buff to NB.. nerf all defence to ground nerf healinig to ground and stupidly boost busrt gang potential. stam NB will be one combo 100% kill with zero counterplay.. so dont worry

TheValar85

nice they need more nerfs thats not enough. focused aim still hits too hard. it is utterly became basicly a one hit kill ability. still needs to be nerfed.

Ruder

@Decimus you can make excellent Werewolf out of your stamblade, Join my pack bro

olsborg

They need to fix Dark Cloak, it doesnt give minor protection. They need to buff stamblade self heals wich are so bad.

They need to adress the fact that its so easy to dodge the entire nb burst combo. If you compare nb burst combo with say stamcro, stamplar or stamden etc, its easy to see the discrepancy.
A stamden for instance has high dmg aoe burst potential with sub assault wich is undodgeable and unblockable. Basicly the same with stamco, but that also brings major defile (blastbones).
Nbs singletarget bow procc (assassin scourge) is easily dodgeable or blockable because of the long traveltime and it takes much more to get it to procc.

Decimus

Joinovikova wrote: »

ZOS fix my bug expliot ...need to go to forum to ask for revert Fix... anyway upcoming patch is huge direct buff to NB.. nerf all defence to ground nerf healinig to ground and stupidly boost busrt gang potential. stam NB will be one combo 100% kill with zero counterplay.. so dont worry

Ok, let's make it so that sorcerers can't weave (Overload) Light/Heavy Attack into a Streak stun or Flame Clench/Rune Cage anymore. Sounds fair, right? It is even worse on a NB since you already give up momentum by spending a global cooldown casting cloak in order to CC someone, which gives people time to heal up/LOS.


Nightblade won't kill anything if it cannot sustain or even weave into their main offensive CC anymore.


Besides, it's pretty naive to assume the healing nerf won't affects NBs as well.

TheValar85 wrote: »

nice they need more nerfs thats not enough. focused aim still hits too hard. it is utterly became basicly a one hit kill ability. still needs to be nerfed.

Ah yes, Focused Aim - that scary nightblade ability - smh, sometimes I wonder why i even bother with forums.

If you're so worried about Focused Aim, consider what happens when the only way to "play" a NB is to sit somewhere 40m away spamming that one button.

That is what you get when melee nightblade becomes unplayable.

Kadoin

Wow, this is only the second NB thread to complain about bugs being fixed. Too bad someone around here is honest enough to report bugs that offer too much benefit.

It's never a good idea to rely on off-label uses of things in this game. ZOS does fix things eventually and sometimes its not in the patch notes.

However, I am still surprised that BSW+Elfbane bug is not in the patch notes and I wonder if it has been patched too...reported around same time

Alucardo

Aztlan wrote: »

Yikes. That should definitely be reverted.

You mean they should re-implement a bug just because it benefits you?

technohic

That kind of sucks as I do feel NB is falling behind because their burst is all with a GCD spacer unlike the delayed burst (although shalks was made blockable a year or so ago. Point still stands) and add that to it being both undodgeable and blockable with a cast time on ultimate, a non mentioned cast time on the gap closer. 9Ot just makes what seems like is supposed to be the most nimble class so slow and avoidable.

I like the idea of 1-2 seconds after cloak on the stun, and would like to see assassins will off the GCD somehow, ambush animation speed up, and cast time gone from incap, but this bug should be fixed and I'm hopefully they fix everything and realize they need to do some adjustments to give NBs intended functionality that works.

Decimus

Alucardo wrote: »

Aztlan wrote: »

Yikes. That should definitely be reverted.

You mean they should re-implement a bug just because it benefits you?

No, they should re-implement the functionality until they have something in place that keeps stamblade in a playable state and lets us weave lights/heavies with our offensive CC like every other class in the game.

Then fix the "bug".


They didn't do that, did they?

nqvarihs

well if they can "fix" this, can they fix cloak breaking from enemy gap closers, lights/heavy attacks and various other skills/projectiles? (and also fix the lag/desyncs which make landing incap/exec/assassins scourge the same experience as rolling a dice) @ZOS pretty please