VMA and VDSA weapons will have perfected versions but your weapon won't be upgraded automatically.

BuildMan · May 22

This is also a scary position for then to stand in. It shows the next time they decide to do a change that is generally not well received they will provide no feedback as to why and the change will go through regardless, at the expense of the corresponding player base.

It may not matter now, but wait till they start making changes that target the casual audience. Imagine if they decreased the ESO+/Base housing limit, and then made you pay in game gold to get it back (not a direct correlation but you catch my point hopefully)

Matchimus · May 22

Following trust. Sweet dreams.

MartiniDaniels · May 23

I have absolutely no idea why ZOS could do this. Many ESO problems can be explained by modern attitude of corporations to get money at every single opportunity. But not upgrading VMA and VDSA weapons? What's the reason to irritate players without any profit?
Maybe there are too many of them in the game, and ZOS can't "replace" them on too many accounts due to technical reasons? But god damn it is so easy, just rename existing weapons into perfected and change stats and create new objects which will be called normals.

MartiniDaniels · May 23

I imagine re-grinding VDSA for perfected master's bow (which is actually really good with passive WD bonus)... chance to get one is roughly 7-8% and everyone needs it, so no chance that somebody will share theirs.. so ~12 VDSA runs. Omg, what a "fun".

zvavi · May 23

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I imagine re-grinding VDSA for perfected master's bow (which is actually really good with passive WD bonus)... chance to get one is roughly 7-8% and everyone needs it, so no chance that somebody will share theirs.. so ~12 VDSA runs. Omg, what a "fun".

:Rubs my lucky stone: I dropped my first vMA inferno on 4th run so I should be fine. Right? Right?!?!

starkerealm · May 23

Moose_Scout wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

When will we get a response about this issue?

I just looked on Dev Tracker for the last month. They are only responding to posts that deal with financial issues now. I don't think gameplay or community is a concern anymore.

Couldn't be that the team is, literally, working from home because of the viral apocalypse outside.

GrumpyDuckling · May 23

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea why ZOS could do this. Many ESO problems can be explained by modern attitude of corporations to get money at every single opportunity. But not upgrading VMA and VDSA weapons? What's the reason to irritate players without any profit?
Maybe there are too many of them in the game, and ZOS can't "replace" them on too many accounts due to technical reasons? But god damn it is so easy, just rename existing weapons into perfected and change stats and create new objects which will be called normals.

After reading the back and forth that one of the high-ranking Zenimax people had with someone on a discord -- it really seemed like that Zenimax person was enjoying lording power over the player and also enjoyed egging the player on. As it appears, I might venture into saying that a contributing factor to the decision not to upgrade VMA and VDSA weapons may simply be...

(Hyperbole, of course

)

MartiniDaniels · May 23

zvavi wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I imagine re-grinding VDSA for perfected master's bow (which is actually really good with passive WD bonus)... chance to get one is roughly 7-8% and everyone needs it, so no chance that somebody will share theirs.. so ~12 VDSA runs. Omg, what a "fun".

:Rubs my lucky stone: I dropped my first vMA inferno on 4th run so I should be fine. Right? Right?!?!

I got vma bow and inferno very fast as well. But when it came to DW daggers-axes meta in U23... I made several dozens of runs and the only DW thing which dropped was mace+sword. (and it was the only DW drop from probably 100 last runs)

so it is dreadful perspective to do something which we already did many-many times just to get an disappointment every time you open a reward chest. But VMA doesn't frighten me much... what frightens me is VDSA.
You need to gather group so many times... and majority of players simply don't want to touch it. Not to mention that VDSA is mostly about PVP gear, so all those amazing PVE-ers with nuking dps and immortal tanks simply not interested to run it, and average PVP-er will come in PVP gear or whatever, so run will turn into long and tiresome experience, where everything is on shoulders of tank and one of dps and two other dps mostly exist to distract mobs...

MartiniDaniels · May 23

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea why ZOS could do this. Many ESO problems can be explained by modern attitude of corporations to get money at every single opportunity. But not upgrading VMA and VDSA weapons? What's the reason to irritate players without any profit?
Maybe there are too many of them in the game, and ZOS can't "replace" them on too many accounts due to technical reasons? But god damn it is so easy, just rename existing weapons into perfected and change stats and create new objects which will be called normals.

After reading the back and forth that one of the high-ranking Zenimax people had with someone on a discord -- it really seemed like that Zenimax person was enjoying lording power over the player and also enjoyed egging the player on. As it appears, I might venture into saying that a contributing factor to the decision not to upgrade VMA and VDSA weapons may simply be...

(Hyperbole, of course )

Looking at some changes, it is quite probable. But it so unprofessional. If you want to keep players or make them return to ESO for new chapter, news that their equipment was upgraded will lure them in. While news that everything was nerfed (bloodspawn etc) will only keep them far from ESO. I think every player in the game has several versions of Bloodspawn in different weights and traits (impen for pvp, sturdy for pve), all golden and witj triple enchants.... it is disheartening to login just to decon all that...

zvavi · May 23

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I imagine re-grinding VDSA for perfected master's bow (which is actually really good with passive WD bonus)... chance to get one is roughly 7-8% and everyone needs it, so no chance that somebody will share theirs.. so ~12 VDSA runs. Omg, what a "fun".

:Rubs my lucky stone: I dropped my first vMA inferno on 4th run so I should be fine. Right? Right?!?!

I got vma bow and inferno very fast as well. But when it came to DW daggers-axes meta in U23... I made several dozens of runs and the only DW thing which dropped was mace+sword. (and it was the only DW drop from probably 100 last runs) so it is dreadful perspective to do something which we already did many-many times just to get an disappointment every time you open a reward chest. But VMA doesn't frighten me much... what frightens me is VDSA.
You need to gather group so many times... and majority of players simply don't want to touch it. Not to mention that VDSA is mostly about PVP gear, so all those amazing PVE-ers with nuking dps and immortal tanks simply not interested to run it, and average PVP-er will come in PVP gear or whatever, so run will turn into long and tiresome experience, where everything is on shoulders of tank and one of dps and two other dps mostly exist to distract mobs...

I got 7 characters with leadboard clears ready, gonna log to them only after the update with the hope for nice drops. Probably not gonna work though, but don't tell the guys from PC EU, my dk healer is fairly low on the leadboard, don't wanna get kicked out

MartiniDaniels · May 23

zvavi wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I imagine re-grinding VDSA for perfected master's bow (which is actually really good with passive WD bonus)... chance to get one is roughly 7-8% and everyone needs it, so no chance that somebody will share theirs.. so ~12 VDSA runs. Omg, what a "fun".

:Rubs my lucky stone: I dropped my first vMA inferno on 4th run so I should be fine. Right? Right?!?!

I got vma bow and inferno very fast as well. But when it came to DW daggers-axes meta in U23... I made several dozens of runs and the only DW thing which dropped was mace+sword. (and it was the only DW drop from probably 100 last runs) so it is dreadful perspective to do something which we already did many-many times just to get an disappointment every time you open a reward chest. But VMA doesn't frighten me much... what frightens me is VDSA.
You need to gather group so many times... and majority of players simply don't want to touch it. Not to mention that VDSA is mostly about PVP gear, so all those amazing PVE-ers with nuking dps and immortal tanks simply not interested to run it, and average PVP-er will come in PVP gear or whatever, so run will turn into long and tiresome experience, where everything is on shoulders of tank and one of dps and two other dps mostly exist to distract mobs...

I got 7 characters with leadboard clears ready, gonna log to them only after the update with the hope for nice drops. Probably not gonna work though, but don't tell the guys from PC EU, my dk healer is fairly low on the leadboard, don't wanna get kicked out

Ha-ha, well, you have not bad chances to get bow

but tbh, i'm not sure if game will give updated rewards

nalimoleb14_ESO · May 23

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea why ZOS could do this. Many ESO problems can be explained by modern attitude of corporations to get money at every single opportunity. But not upgrading VMA and VDSA weapons? What's the reason to irritate players without any profit?
Maybe there are too many of them in the game, and ZOS can't "replace" them on too many accounts due to technical reasons? But god damn it is so easy, just rename existing weapons into perfected and change stats and create new objects which will be called normals.

Nope because when they nerfed Maelstrom weapons they were able to roll out the nerf to all of the Maelstrom weapons in everyone’s inventories; Zenimax has the ability to upgrade all existing VMA/VDSA weapons acquired prior to Greymoor to Perfected, they just don’t feel like it because it’s easier to force the player base to regrind old content with *** RNG. Their silence is deafening and a little sickening.

zvavi · May 23

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I imagine re-grinding VDSA for perfected master's bow (which is actually really good with passive WD bonus)... chance to get one is roughly 7-8% and everyone needs it, so no chance that somebody will share theirs.. so ~12 VDSA runs. Omg, what a "fun".

:Rubs my lucky stone: I dropped my first vMA inferno on 4th run so I should be fine. Right? Right?!?!

I got vma bow and inferno very fast as well. But when it came to DW daggers-axes meta in U23... I made several dozens of runs and the only DW thing which dropped was mace+sword. (and it was the only DW drop from probably 100 last runs) so it is dreadful perspective to do something which we already did many-many times just to get an disappointment every time you open a reward chest. But VMA doesn't frighten me much... what frightens me is VDSA.
You need to gather group so many times... and majority of players simply don't want to touch it. Not to mention that VDSA is mostly about PVP gear, so all those amazing PVE-ers with nuking dps and immortal tanks simply not interested to run it, and average PVP-er will come in PVP gear or whatever, so run will turn into long and tiresome experience, where everything is on shoulders of tank and one of dps and two other dps mostly exist to distract mobs...

I got 7 characters with leadboard clears ready, gonna log to them only after the update with the hope for nice drops. Probably not gonna work though, but don't tell the guys from PC EU, my dk healer is fairly low on the leadboard, don't wanna get kicked out

Ha-ha, well, you have not bad chances to get bow but tbh, i'm not sure if game will give updated rewards

Aw there is high chance it won't, that's y my main gonna get it while the other 6 stay parked

gatekeeper13 · May 23

nalimoleb14_ESO wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea why ZOS could do this. Many ESO problems can be explained by modern attitude of corporations to get money at every single opportunity. But not upgrading VMA and VDSA weapons? What's the reason to irritate players without any profit?
Maybe there are too many of them in the game, and ZOS can't "replace" them on too many accounts due to technical reasons? But god damn it is so easy, just rename existing weapons into perfected and change stats and create new objects which will be called normals.

Nope because when they nerfed Maelstrom weapons they were able to roll out the nerf to all of the Maelstrom weapons in everyone’s inventories; Zenimax has the ability to upgrade all existing VMA/VDSA weapons acquired prior to Greymoor to Perfected, they just don’t feel like it because it’s easier to force the player base to regrind old content with *** RNG. Their silence is deafening and a little sickening.

Its one of the reasons why I am not buying Greymoor. Not because I wont get the nerf on my vMA weapons that way, but because I dont want to support a company that takes such decisions against its customers. And what pisses me off even more, is that they didnt even bother to reply and explain themselves. It's not like the community is split on the matter. The negative reaction is unanimous.

Ascarl · May 23

A nerf is when something gets worse after a patch. But all already owned weapons stay exactly the same, just a new version gets introduced.
The same happens every year with the release of a new TV. Do you run to your TV retailer and yell at them that your TV got nerfed?

gatekeeper13 · May 23

Ascarl wrote: »

A nerf is when something gets worse after a patch. But all already owned weapons stay exactly the same, just a new version gets introduced.
The same happens every year with the release of a new TV. Do you run to your TV retailer and yell at them that your TV got nerfed?

When you have done the SAME AREA around 50 times to get what is supposed to be the "top tier loot" and suddenly ZOS comes and tells you: "You know what? Your BiS loot will actually become the weakened version of what will now drop in vMA and you have to run it another 50 times", then yes. Its a nerf.

Plus, I dont get what a TV which is an object made with specific technology in a specific time has to do with a video game which is based on a code. The "perfected vMA weapons" were not a change to make the game perform better. It was to make you re-grind dead DLC content.

Your example makes no sense.

Kaliki · May 23

Ascarl wrote: »

A nerf is when something gets worse after a patch. But all already owned weapons stay exactly the same, just a new version gets introduced.
The same happens every year with the release of a new TV. Do you run to your TV retailer and yell at them that your TV got nerfed?

But the newly introduced reward is actually the reward for the normal version, which did not exist before. The current veteran versions are all effectively downgraded to normal versions.

Would you be alright with all your monster helmets or perfected trial gear becoming normal rewards as well and suddenly have vet mode drop super perfected gear?
Is it fun having to do exactly the same content to get the veteran reward again?

Sanguinor2 · May 23

starkerealm wrote: »

Couldn't be that the team is, literally, working from home because of the viral apocalypse outside.

Its not like a pandemic can stop them from Talking to one another to come up with some reasoning and then tell that to us. Atleast I hope so because I would be really worried if they cannot find a way to communicate with one another when not in Person. My 70 years old lecturers manage to communicate online so game devs should too tbh. If they wanted to that is

Sange13 · May 23

Ascarl wrote: »

A nerf is when something gets worse after a patch. But all already owned weapons stay exactly the same, just a new version gets introduced.
The same happens every year with the release of a new TV. Do you run to your TV retailer and yell at them that your TV got nerfed?

Nice false equivalency. Truly impressive.

mairwen85 · May 23

Sange13 wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

A nerf is when something gets worse after a patch. But all already owned weapons stay exactly the same, just a new version gets introduced.
The same happens every year with the release of a new TV. Do you run to your TV retailer and yell at them that your TV got nerfed?

Nice false equivalency. Truly impressive.

I'm growing extremely tired from explaining the exact same thing. I think practically every page of this thread has a post like this and a rebuttal plus explanation for why this is a non sequitur, and complete logical fallacy, but it is the only argument, regardless of whether it stands up to scrutiny, and people insist on pressing it. Go figure.

Raudgrani · May 23

Helped out running VDSA recently, had TWO bows in rewards in my mail. Couldn't help but laugh. It's all so messed up. Now I'm getting two (have had 2 in total previously, in close to a hundred runs or so) bow? When there's like a few weeks until this change, I swear I could run 300 times, without that ever happening again.

Ascarl · May 23

Kaliki wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

A nerf is when something gets worse after a patch. But all already owned weapons stay exactly the same, just a new version gets introduced.
The same happens every year with the release of a new TV. Do you run to your TV retailer and yell at them that your TV got nerfed?

But the newly introduced reward is actually the reward for the normal version, which did not exist before. The current veteran versions are all effectively downgraded to normal versions.

Would you be alright with all your monster helmets or perfected trial gear becoming normal rewards as well and suddenly have vet mode drop super perfected gear?
Is it fun having to do exactly the same content to get the veteran reward again?

The same thing actually happens quite a bit with tech items. Intel's i5 might be more or less equivalent to last year's i7. AMD did the same thing and sold older stuff as a lower tier item of the new series.

Back to TV. Usually you get a huge discount on the previous series when a new version is introduced. This happens right now on ESO. The new perfected version replaces the predecessor for the same price (vMA) and the old version becomes available for a discount (nMA). Welcome to the real world.
By the way in most other MMORPG older items become devaluated quicker. The only advantage is that they usually reskin a few bosses and rename the dungeon for better publicity.

mairwen85 · May 23

Ascarl wrote: »

Kaliki wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

A nerf is when something gets worse after a patch. But all already owned weapons stay exactly the same, just a new version gets introduced.
The same happens every year with the release of a new TV. Do you run to your TV retailer and yell at them that your TV got nerfed?

But the newly introduced reward is actually the reward for the normal version, which did not exist before. The current veteran versions are all effectively downgraded to normal versions.

Would you be alright with all your monster helmets or perfected trial gear becoming normal rewards as well and suddenly have vet mode drop super perfected gear?
Is it fun having to do exactly the same content to get the veteran reward again?

The same thing actually happens quite a bit with tech items. Intel's i5 might be more or less equivalent to last year's i7. AMD did the same thing and sold older stuff as a lower tier item of the new series.

Back to TV. Usually you get a huge discount on the previous series when a new version is introduced. This happens right now on ESO. The new perfected version replaces the predecessor for the same price (vMA) and the old version becomes available for a discount (nMA). Welcome to the real world.
By the way in most other MMORPG older items become devaluated quicker. The only advantage is that they usually reskin a few bosses and rename the dungeon for better publicity.

To yet again say the same thing, none of that is relevant in the context of ESO, and repeat myself:

this isn't any MMO, this is ESO. ESO does not do the 'Standard MMO workings' with gear in this way, there is horizontal progression and new content = new gear. This is established and something that for a long time has set ESO apart from other MMOs and received much praise from players. Whenever gear has been revisited historically, any change has effected all existing instances, you don't have to refarm after a nerf for example, or when a patch buffs a set or adds/removes stats. Never has the primary content reward been replaced by a new shiny and the existing reward downgraded from veteran reward to normal. Additional rewards have been added to existing content, but as supliment to that primary reward, as extra incentive (like motifs and style pages), but never as replacement. In other words, this is a new approach for ZOS and ESO. An entirely new precedent, and one that at this point in the game's life is an unacceptable paradigm shift.

There is an established norm here, a paradigm that is not aligned to anything in the 'real world' but instead follows a defined pattern that ZOS have been very careful to create.

Or reworded as stated previously:

mairwen85 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

So you're saying if I run vma the day prior to greymoor release, I deserve a lesser reward to someone who runs it the day after? Same content, same effort.

Basically, yes.

I know it sounds bizarre, but if you look at all the places and situations where this sort of thing happens in every day life, it is really quite common.

Admittedly, the amount of effort that it would take to upgrade them is worth it, just in extending customer service and good customer relations.

I keep saying this, but that comment I've bolded is a red herring, a total non sequitur in this discussion. It isn't the established norm in the context of this game. Analogues to every day life, other MMOs, etc do not apply -- for 6 years, ZOS have established what that norm is, and now they decide to go against it. Its their game, they can do what they want, but it's hardly clever at this stage to change that and suddenly go against a widely adopted expectation you have crafted.

Elsonso · May 23

Kaliki wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

A nerf is when something gets worse after a patch. But all already owned weapons stay exactly the same, just a new version gets introduced.
The same happens every year with the release of a new TV. Do you run to your TV retailer and yell at them that your TV got nerfed?

But the newly introduced reward is actually the reward for the normal version, which did not exist before. The current veteran versions are all effectively downgraded to normal versions.

Would you be alright with all your monster helmets or perfected trial gear becoming normal rewards as well and suddenly have vet mode drop super perfected gear?
Is it fun having to do exactly the same content to get the veteran reward again?

You have to be careful when you say things like "downgraded" because that can be interpreted as an actual a change to the weapon. They perform exactly the same today as they will after Greymoor. The only thing that has changed is that they are not the top reward for the content anymore.

ZOS added a new top reward above the one that currently exists for the same content, and that is actually the central point. I don't see this as being about weapon upgrades as much as whether ZOS should be doing that. I wish that they had completely reconsidered the entire plan and canceled the idea to introduce these perfected weapons.

The development message seems to be clear, without them even needing to say it. There is no upgrade guarantee for top rewards. If a new top reward is introduced, even if the content itself has not changed, the older top rewards may not be upgraded.

MartiniDaniels · May 23

Ha, I think I figured out why this happened.
VMA is part of ESO+... so if you don't own Orsinium and you stopped subscribing, you'll be forced to buy either ESO+ or Orsinium to re-grind those weapons.

silvereyes · May 23

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Ha, I think I figured out why this happened.
VMA is part of ESO+... so if you don't own Orsinium and you stopped subscribing, you'll be forced to buy either ESO+ or Orsinium to re-grind those weapons.

I doubt it. That’s maybe a reason to drop arena weapons from nMA, since the crowd that didn’t want to / couldn’t do vMA before is a huge crowd that certainly includes the biggest group of persuadable non-subscribers.

But the crowd that has done vMA before enough times to have earned good drops is smaller and most likely already has a saturated market for subs. Plus, you don’t drive up subscribers by screwing customers over.

Kaliki · May 23

Ascarl wrote: »

Kaliki wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

A nerf is when something gets worse after a patch. But all already owned weapons stay exactly the same, just a new version gets introduced.
The same happens every year with the release of a new TV. Do you run to your TV retailer and yell at them that your TV got nerfed?

But the newly introduced reward is actually the reward for the normal version, which did not exist before. The current veteran versions are all effectively downgraded to normal versions.

Would you be alright with all your monster helmets or perfected trial gear becoming normal rewards as well and suddenly have vet mode drop super perfected gear?
Is it fun having to do exactly the same content to get the veteran reward again?

The same thing actually happens quite a bit with tech items. Intel's i5 might be more or less equivalent to last year's i7. AMD did the same thing and sold older stuff as a lower tier item of the new series.

Back to TV. Usually you get a huge discount on the previous series when a new version is introduced. This happens right now on ESO. The new perfected version replaces the predecessor for the same price (vMA) and the old version becomes available for a discount (nMA). Welcome to the real world.
By the way in most other MMORPG older items become devaluated quicker. The only advantage is that they usually reskin a few bosses and rename the dungeon for better publicity.

I see it more like: You buy your top-tier TV today at full price. But if you wait until June 1, you get a slightly improved version of your TV model for the same money and at the same time, the TV you bought before June 1 is handed out to everyone for just the shipping fee.

I have no problems with the usual depreciation of items in MMOs, and I foumd the way TESO is going so far quite nice: Items are depreciated mainly by other, more desirable options becoming available and existing overperforming sets being adjusted.
But this case feels a little different for me and I will certainly not replay the same content just to get a slightly better vMA staff.

All in all, ZOSs decision is quite unfortunate. Its a small thing that would not cost them anything, but they seem to be intent on deliberately frustrating some players.

Moose_Scout · May 23

Drop the metaphor, it doesn't work.

We ran veteran content for the veteran reward.

Now it appears that we have run vet content for a normal reward.

What is that? It is a waste of time.

Why is a waste of time important? Because in a video game your time put in needs to feel worthwhile even if it just a stupid pixel on a screen. ZOS has set the precedent that your time and effort means nothing.

wlkanos · May 23

Why are people still trying to compare this to buying a TV or an Iphone a year or so ago? how in the world do you see a comparison??

Want a better comparison? try saying you paid for ESO base game 3 years ago and now they'll charge you again for the same base game because of improvements and new base game level content.

You need to understand, we ran VET arenas therefor we should have VET weapons, otherwise take away the weapons and the achievements as well, this will also open up a door for ZOS to do this again with any HM dungeon, monster set, etc.

Also don't compare this to other MMOs and say they do this all the time, ESO doesn't do this, this is not the norm, whenever changes are made to items they are pushed straight into your inventory and you're not asked to re farm.
If the norm was that these weapons become weaker every year and we'd have to re farm them then sure, we'd know what we signed up for, just like buying a slightly improved Iphone each year like the jokes we are, but it isn't the case.

All of this would have been avoided if they simply made these changes with changes to the arenas themselves, i'd be happy to re farm if there was new content.

xaraan · May 23

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea why ZOS could do this. Many ESO problems can be explained by modern attitude of corporations to get money at every single opportunity. But not upgrading VMA and VDSA weapons? What's the reason to irritate players without any profit?
Maybe there are too many of them in the game, and ZOS can't "replace" them on too many accounts due to technical reasons? But god damn it is so easy, just rename existing weapons into perfected and change stats and create new objects which will be called normals.

After reading the back and forth that one of the high-ranking Zenimax people had with someone on a discord -- it really seemed like that Zenimax person was enjoying lording power over the player and also enjoyed egging the player on. As it appears, I might venture into saying that a contributing factor to the decision not to upgrade VMA and VDSA weapons may simply be.
[/img]

(Hyperbole, of course )

Would be interesting to see this conversation for myself. I've definitely seen some comments that were a bit unprofessional before and were definitely jabs at the players. It's pretty obvious there is quite a bit of spite for the players being unhappy with the game that voice that displeasure too much, whether it has been performance and their lack of an ability to fix it or just bad decisions in building classes and balance and they have certainly seemed to revel, from time to time, in pointing out petty little things to take a jab back. It's only human even if unprofessional. But to have a out and out discussion where they did that would be a different matter than a passing remark or a weak attempt with a marketing spin. Although I have observed interesting behavior from some stream teamers that make me think they have seen or had discussions that other players don't and have either gone out of their way to spin for zos on this issue or just completely avoid the topic if they don't want to go that far. So there is definitely something up.

It's unfortunate. There will always be bad decisions made in designing something. Sometimes it's just that you disagree and think your way is best and end up wrong, sometimes the feedback was wrong and you shouldn't have listened, sometimes everything goes wrong. You just have to adjust, fix it, learn from it, etc. Not get spiteful about it. I mean, I learned years ago they care more about how feedback is given than the quality of said feedback. Told me right then they cared more about how they were perceived than whether or not they actually fixed stuff (even if as they years went by, they implemented every piece of feedback they didn't like from that scenerio and proved that feedback had been correct).

Personally, with how embarrassing the performance is in this game, they should be falling over backwards to take care of players, not give them more reasons to leave the game. In the last six months we've (my team) lost 4 players because of how bad performance is, they've even checked the game after recent performance updates and laughed about how it's actually gotten worse in some ways. We've also lost two others recently that had tolerated performance issues though they were not happy with them that pretty much said forget it when the arena weapon changes were announced saying the game just wasn't worth the trouble. And another player that isn't buying the expansion from our team. It's hard enough keeping raid teams going just because personality and life often pulls at the team, even harder when it feels like the game itself is against you.