Update 26 Combat Preview

Xorsius

silvereyes wrote: »

The fact that the dev team intentionally chose to go down this path of sadness despite the storm they knew it would kick up, and then the comment from Rich that essentially told people to stop acting so entitled, just feels super bad and disrespectful.

Where was this comment said? Was it a comment addressing this whole mess with the vMA weapons?

MLGProPlayer

Speaking of previous comments made by ZOS, anyone remember these?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone. First of all, you aren't wrong. We agree we haven't been communicating as much as we should on this matter (among others) and for that, we apologize. There really is no excuse.

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

While we do have a backlog of improvements identified for the game, it’s clear we could do a better job of answering those kinds of inquiries, both for the player community and ourselves.

In time we’ll also want to share more about the vision and strategy that will drive future combat updates.

Elsonso

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Speaking of previous comments made by ZOS, anyone remember these?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone. First of all, you aren't wrong. We agree we haven't been communicating as much as we should on this matter (among others) and for that, we apologize. There really is no excuse.

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

While we do have a backlog of improvements identified for the game, it’s clear we could do a better job of answering those kinds of inquiries, both for the player community and ourselves.

In time we’ll also want to share more about the vision and strategy that will drive future combat updates.

Yeah, they know they need to come out with a statement. Not sure why they just don't take the Xanax and just do it.

xaraan

Elsonso wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

[...] and then the comment from Rich that essentially told people to stop acting so entitled, just feels super bad and disrespectful.

Where did he say that?

I am actually curious about that, too. All I have seen is a screen cap with the name blocked out that claims to be from Lambert.

I'm curious about that as well.

I mean, people ARE entitled to something they earn lol. I earned a vMA weapon, so feeling entitled to one isn't crazy. That's one of the uses of a buzzword that sounds negative just b/c of so much use, when it's actually not even negative.

I suppose it's possible he could, but would rather see the comment myself.

silvereyes

Letho2469 wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

[...] and then the comment from Rich that essentially told people to stop acting so entitled, just feels super bad and disrespectful.

Where did he say that?

I apologize, I should have been more clear. It's just a rumor at this point, as far as I know. I've updated my comment to be more clear on that point.

I haven't seen any confirmed sourcing of the origin. I originally saw the comment here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6710115/#Comment_6710115
... and then subsequent comments in the same thread alleged authorship back to Rich.

Xorsius

silvereyes wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

[...] and then the comment from Rich that essentially told people to stop acting so entitled, just feels super bad and disrespectful.

Where did he say that?

I apologize, I should have been more clear. It's just a rumor at this point, as far as I know. I've updated my comment to be more clear on that point.

I haven't seen any confirmed sourcing of the origin. I originally saw the comment here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6710115/#Comment_6710115
... and then subsequent comments in the same thread alleged authorship back to Rich.

Thanks for sharing. That comment on that Discord is pretty poor reasoning either way tbh.

silvereyes

Xorsius wrote: »

Thanks for sharing. That comment on that Discord is pretty poor reasoning either way tbh.

Yeah, I tried not to get too hung up on the poor analogy. There are a lot of those floating around. I'm more concerned about the dismissive attitude behind it.

Gatto_Cleptomane

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Your current VMA and DSA Weapons will not be automatically upgraded to Perfected versions.

Okay, let’s assume the fact it’s impossible to just change the gear in players‘ inventories as the perf.and imperf. versions are two different instances and making an attempt to do so will cause some sort of internal structural conflict, which I see as the only viable reason behind this.
However, just making player base farm those weapons all over again is not the best approach to such changes. I have a suggestion. I’ll use Maelstrom as an example. We get weapons at the very end of the vet.mode from the chests. Add a change token to that last chest. This token could allow changing the imperf. weapon a player already has, to a perf.version at a station or a trader at the arena.
1. Of course this token is given only at vet. This ensures the player is eligible for a perf.weapon for being able to complete the vet.arena
2. This reduces grinding for weapons and makes players being less RNG affected.
3. 1 token per weapon change. You get same trait, same quality but just a perf.version of the weapon.
It’s a solution that will satisfy both sides considering how straightforward the answer was.

John_Falstaff

Gatto_Cleptomane wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Your current VMA and DSA Weapons will not be automatically upgraded to Perfected versions.

Okay, let’s assume the fact it’s impossible to just change the gear in players‘ inventories as the perf.and imperf. versions are two different instances and making an attempt to do so will cause some sort of internal structural conflict, which I see as the only viable reason behind this.
However, just making player base farm those weapons all over again is not the best approach to such changes. I have a suggestion. I’ll use Maelstrom as an example. We get weapons at the very end of the vet.mode from the chests. Add a change token to that last chest. This token could allow changing the imperf. weapon a player already has, to a perf.version at a station or a trader at the arena.
1. Of course this token is given only at vet. This ensures the player is eligible for a perf.weapon for being able to complete the vet.arena
2. This reduces grinding for weapons and makes players being less RNG affected.
3. 1 token per weapon change. You get same trait, same quality but just a perf.version of the weapon.
It’s a solution that will satisfy both sides considering how straightforward the answer was.

That wouldn't be a correct assumption - they happened to rename sets in the past (which changed the name in everyone's inventories - most massive rename in One Tamriel) and they change traits on existing sets in everyone's inventories every bloody patch. It only takes them to rename current sets to perfected and add (I know, radical notion for ZOS) 1pc bonus.

Look, ZOS, since you're telling that when you change which set drops in a content we don't get to benefit from those changes on existing drops, why did you change Iceheart in my inventory? Or, let's allow current perfected Asylum destro users keep their 2-proc condition, how about that? Let's not "upgrade" their current staves to new perfected staff, just to stick to the decision you, yourselves, have established?

MLGProPlayer

Gatto_Cleptomane wrote: »

Okay, let’s assume the fact it’s impossible to just change the gear in players‘ inventories as the perf.and imperf. versions are two different instances and making an attempt to do so will cause some sort of internal structural conflict, which I see as the only viable reason behind this.

This is 100% ZOS being stubborn and out of touch with their own game, as is the case with 99% of their ill-advised changes.

There is no technical reason why they couldn't change the item stats on existing vMA weapons. They change the stats on a bunch of gear every balance patch.

Gatto_Cleptomane

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Gatto_Cleptomane wrote: »

Okay, let’s assume the fact it’s impossible to just change the gear in players‘ inventories as the perf.and imperf. versions are two different instances and making an attempt to do so will cause some sort of internal structural conflict, which I see as the only viable reason behind this.

This is 100% ZOS being stubborn and out of touch with their own game, as is the case with 99% of their ill-advised changes.

There is no technical reason why they couldn't change the item stats on existing vMA weapons. They change the stats on a bunch of gear every balance patch.

Look, I’m playing since Patch 2.1.4. I know, feel the same way. That was only an assumption, I do agree that they could have changed the stats on the existing weapons, rename them and then just add the New imperfect instances of these weapons. At the same time we got a clear “no” As the answer as to will they change what we already have in our inventories. Let’s be honest, “why” is not important at this point. If ZOS wants, they do, no matter the reason they feed us. So I suggested a compromise, based on the info at hand. I think you’ll agree if I say that grinding all over again is bs compared to a couple of runs just to perfect the weapons for yet another currency. Anyways, most likely they won’t even bother but hey, hopes die last.

silvereyes

Gatto_Cleptomane wrote: »

So I suggested a compromise, based on the info at hand. I think you’ll agree if I say that grinding all over again is bs compared to a couple of runs just to perfect the weapons for yet another currency. Anyways, most likely they won’t even bother but hey, hopes die last.

Tbh, even if it were possible for ZOS to implement a token system before launch (it isn't), I wouldn't want them to. PTS already has a bugs list a mile long on day 2 (2-4x normal latency in trials, crashes, more crashes, more crashes + environment textures not loading during ESO+ today, etc.). I really want them working on fixing those bugs and not some slapdash new system.

To make matters even more stressful for the dev team, they are all working from home right now. If any are like me and have young kids at home, their productivity has probably plummeted these last few weeks. Not a great time for piling on any new features.

Gatto_Cleptomane

silvereyes wrote: »

Gatto_Cleptomane wrote: »

So I suggested a compromise, based on the info at hand. I think you’ll agree if I say that grinding all over again is bs compared to a couple of runs just to perfect the weapons for yet another currency. Anyways, most likely they won’t even bother but hey, hopes die last.

Tbh, even if it were possible for ZOS to implement a token system before launch (it isn't), I wouldn't want them to. PTS already has a bugs list a mile long on day 2 (2-4x normal latency in trials, crashes, more crashes, more crashes + environment textures not loading during ESO+ today, etc.). I really want them working on fixing those bugs and not some slapdash new system.

To make matters even more stressful for the dev team, they are all working from home right now. If any are like me and have young kids at home, their productivity has probably plummeted these last few weeks. Not a great time for piling on any new features.

True, true. This game has been like everything: elder staves, elder sorcs, elder blades in killing pants (viper and all along), etc. You name it! Now I see it as elder writs online. I’d rather they focused solely on performance. If you can’t run a game - balance, beauty, new super content is kinda pointless. I want to go to Cyro and be able to break free or use a skill when I need, I want to run into keeps not into random loading screens xD
I’d forgive flushed balance, pricy “expansions”, yet another pet/mount reskin, IF the game worked. I do agree that they’ve got much to do for the upcoming chapter. However, PTS was never a good representation of what we should expect in terms of performance. The bigger the update, the more will go wrong. If when it goes live nothing breaks, I’ll be Really surprised.

New system? Well, token system ain’t new to this game. However, they add new skill lines with mini-games, which to me, with all due respect is less important than forcing need to re-farm weapons based on rng in content which offers nothing new and all vet.player base is tired of.

Speaking of working from home, well, yes and no. Times are difficult and I wish every one to stay safe and healthy. *don’t touch face and Do wash hands! Buuut at this point my sympathy is limited. ESO is a business and we are customers. The whole world is affected. So for me work from home and personal discomfort doesn’t justify a product that doesn’t properly work. Postpone the release date if needed. Seriously, If it takes more time to polish and make sure it works, I’ll consider buying it.

BTW in terms of assistance and PTS, I’d suggest they post requests to check certain things like: ”Hey, we are looking into this skill line right now (e.g. vamps). Please if you can go to PTS and try to break the Game. We are looking into animations, animcancels, and how the skills work in general with and without weapons in hands“. It’s just an example. Categorizing each and every aspect will give more direct feedback in proper threads. Same way they gathered feedback on la/ha changes.

We are all here, cause we want our game to be better.

Letho2469

Gatto_Cleptomane wrote: »

If you can’t run a game - balance, beauty, new super content is kinda pointless. I want to go to Cyro and be able to break free or use a skill when I need, I want to run into keeps not into random loading screens xD
I’d forgive flushed balance, pricy “expansions”, yet another pet/mount reskin, IF the game worked. [...]

Thanks for pointing it out, there is absolutely nothing to add, it nails down what's the problem with this game.

silvereyes

Gatto_Cleptomane wrote: »

So for me work from home and personal discomfort doesn’t justify a product that doesn’t properly work.

Of course not. That wasn't my point anyways. Honestly, I'd love them to push back the release if it meant they release a quality product.

Also, PSA to any who aren't in the same situation right now, but "personal discomfort" doesn't quite do justice to the situation of trying to program code and care for or teach young children at the same time. There's a reason that teaching and child care are dedicated professions, lol.

Most programmers at my company who have young children with closed schools or day cares have seen their hours per week cut by ~30-50%; not because they have been furloughed, but just because they cannot physically be coding and cleaning up a glitter slime explosion at the same time.

heaven13

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Gatto_Cleptomane wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Your current VMA and DSA Weapons will not be automatically upgraded to Perfected versions.

Okay, let’s assume the fact it’s impossible to just change the gear in players‘ inventories as the perf.and imperf. versions are two different instances and making an attempt to do so will cause some sort of internal structural conflict, which I see as the only viable reason behind this.
However, just making player base farm those weapons all over again is not the best approach to such changes. I have a suggestion. I’ll use Maelstrom as an example. We get weapons at the very end of the vet.mode from the chests. Add a change token to that last chest. This token could allow changing the imperf. weapon a player already has, to a perf.version at a station or a trader at the arena.
1. Of course this token is given only at vet. This ensures the player is eligible for a perf.weapon for being able to complete the vet.arena
2. This reduces grinding for weapons and makes players being less RNG affected.
3. 1 token per weapon change. You get same trait, same quality but just a perf.version of the weapon.
It’s a solution that will satisfy both sides considering how straightforward the answer was.

That wouldn't be a correct assumption - they happened to rename sets in the past (which changed the name in everyone's inventories - most massive rename in One Tamriel) and they change traits on existing sets in everyone's inventories every bloody patch. It only takes them to rename current sets to perfected and add (I know, radical notion for ZOS) 1pc bonus.

Look, ZOS, since you're telling that when you change which set drops in a content we don't get to benefit from those changes on existing drops, why did you change Iceheart in my inventory? Or, let's allow current perfected Asylum destro users keep their 2-proc condition, how about that? Let's not "upgrade" their current staves to new perfected staff, just to stick to the decision you, yourselves, have established?

And we even know they're capable of adding a 1 pc bonus to something that didn't already have it because they're doing it THIS PATCH. Perfected Asylum Inferno is changing from 2 casts to 3 (like the normal) and getting 103 Spell Damage added as compensation.

xaraan

Let's hope they aren't just ignoring player feedback and hoping to bury threads.

This is really one of those things they are doing that add nothing to the game. And no, I don't mean the fact they are letting nMA drop weapons, I'm talking about what they are doing to the players that have run vMA. Screwing them over does absolutely nothing positive for the game.

It pisses off a bunch of players for no reason to make them re-run content they don't want to run and didn't enjoy the first time. People that think that part of the change is good are probably in the low single digit percentile. Literally every player that I've talked to that has farmed vMA thinks the change is bad, even the ones that don't care enough to post about it still think it's dumb.

There are positive ways to make vMA more appealing for people to re-run if that's what they want, even without redoing the content.

I think the thing that bugs me most is that this is no difference than them bumping gear cap to 180. Every argument applies - it's only a small boost! They aren't changing your current gear! You don't have to earn CP180 gear, it won't matter much. But b/c this change effects mostly the end game community unlike a gear cap raise effecting almost everyone it is somehow ok. You want end game players to be more welcoming and less toxic, then stop acting like it's ok to screw them over, don't pit them in these battles against newer players.

Take this whole discussion for example. I've run into way too many players that think half the complaints are b/c end game players don't want players to earn MA weapons easily when the truth is very few people have even brought up any issue with that. The bonuses are such a small deal that the power level between doing nMA and vMA isn't worth it past someone's desire to just have the best gear on a build 'just because'. And yet most players pissed about this don't have an issue with that gear being made extremely easy to acquire now. They just don't want to refarm for vMA drops when they already earned vMA drops.

zyk

xaraan wrote: »

It pisses off a bunch of players for no reason to make them re-run content they don't want to run and didn't enjoy the first time. People that think that part of the change is good are probably in the low single digit percentile. Literally every player that I've talked to that has farmed vMA thinks the change is bad, even the ones that don't care enough to post about it still think it's dumb.

I enjoyed the process of completing vMA for the first time. I kind of enjoyed honing my strategies for a few runs after that. But the next x dozen or hundreds of runs after that were just painful. I wanted only a sharpened inferno staff and instead received everything but. I had nearly a full collection of vMA weapons, but not a single inferno staff of any trait. After my last run, I thought to myself: never again.

Despite my lack of an inferno staff, I still had a pretty good collection of vMA weapons after that I could feel good about. Until this post by Mr. Wheeler.

It seems posts expressing we don't feel valued as a customer can be removed in these forums, so I'm presuming we can be banned for that now. Crazy times.

BennyButton

BennyButton wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler it's been over 72 hours with no response. I think it's time for you to stop hiding behind this disastrous decision.

120 hours now

Suddwrath

@ZOS_BrianWheeler a response would be greatly appreciated.

SpiderCultist

is this DLC still refundable?


55€ (for collector's edition) to the bin

thanks ZoS

dwig

I've had a continuous subscription to ESO since April of 2014, but I cancelled on Monday. I am not going to pay to have my time disrespected like this.

Will resub if decision is reverted.

Asmoxian

SpiderCultist wrote: »

is this DLC still refundable?


55€ (for collector's edition) to the bin

thanks ZoS

If you purchased through Steam, I believe it is.

silvereyes

I too just canceled my ESO+ membership, and do not plan to buy Greymoor. I think it's time for a break, until ZOS starts to prioritize quality and customer service.

I'm not rage-quitting. I love the game. But I just have better things to do with my time than fight with buggy software and be treated with contempt.

OldManJim

Interesting that this post is no longer stickied...

This is the final straw in me cancelling my pre-order for the physical collectors edition of Greymoor. For starters the price is exorbitant in Aus ($250)...

I've been playing since beta. However I haven't done VMA. In fact, I've struggled with nMA. The weapon issue doesn't affect me & it's actually in my benefit to get access to Maelstrom weapons. But it's the contempt & disrespect that's being shown to the players that have put in countless hours grinding the RNG to get the weapons they want.

The artificial limits put on event tokens and transmute crystals also shows the stance of the developers. They can easily increase them. They could easily add reward tokens to VMA so players can purchase the weapon they want. But instead it's all about the psychology of keeping people engaged in the game with endless grinds, limited tokens, flash sales...

I get the same vibe from ZoS that I got when I quit playing Warhammer 40k about 8 years ago. They don't care about the veteran player. It's about sucking in new players, milking them for as much money as they can & then spitting them out.

C'mon ZoS start showing some respect for your player base. Show us ES fans that you respect us. Kick the evil addiction psychologists out and let us play the game how we want.

Edit: Oh yeah...ESO: Minesweeper...sorry...the mobile game antiquity system really, really sucks.

Letho2469

I too cancelled my subscription, yesterday. This is not a reaction to the arena weapons thing but to the trails, especially veteran sunspire, being unplayable for nearly a month now.

Dominionix

The silence from ZOS in this thread is deafening.

John_Falstaff

I'm actually starting to think that non-upgradable arena weapons is a red herring meant to distract us from changes on PTS. In strategic moment, ZOS declares - okay, okay, we're upgrading your weapons, and we go "hurra-a-a-a-ay!" and forget about nerfs to tanking monster sets, abysmally unbalanced mythics, obliterated Asylum inferno and the rest. That'll be a clever move.

silvereyes

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Dominionix wrote: »

The silence from ZOS in this thread is deafening.

My comment got deleted for pointing out that this thread got unstickied.

It looks stickied at the top of the combat category to me. Not sure what the issue is.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

That'll be a clever move.

Which is how you know that's not what ZOS is doing.

@ZOS_RichLambert , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler : don't you see the problem with not communicating better? In the absence of real information, people are left to interpret everything according to preexisting opinions, and things really start spiraling downward. Simple forum mod actions become part of a sinister cover up to those already feeling repressed. Coincidences between two developer changes to the game suddenly become part of a diabolical conspiracy to manipulate those upset by both changes.

Please just release a statement about veteran arena weapons. If your minds are made up, please just communicate your reasoning for the decision. If you are considering upgrading weapons in response to feedback, or are considering some other plan to ease the pain of not upgrading them, please say so. The echo chamber here is getting pretty loud.

Sanguinor2

silvereyes wrote: »

It looks stickied at the top of the combat category to me. Not sure what the issue is.

It was stickied on the "Recent" page before but isnt anymore, atleast not for me.