Which Armor Trait do you Never use?

YandereGirlfriend

Invigorating

tmbrinks wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Invigorating is totally useless as it is currently balanced.

If you wanted to follow the Tristat precedent where you get half of the maximum single-stat bonus for all three stats, that would give us a value of 169 / 2 = ~84 all regen per second. If slotted on all 7 pieces of armor, that would get us ~84 * 7 = ~600 all regen, which is definitely too strong.

If we instead only went with one third of the maximum single-stat bonus, we would get 169 / 3 = ~56 all regen which would yield ~400 all regen if slotted on all pieces. This seems closer to the mark, but perhaps we should round down to an even 50 all regen per piece which results in a maximum value of 350 all regen?

If that still seems high, using 40 all regen would give us a value of 280, which is probably the lowest you would want to go before pushing it back into uselessness.

You still wouldn't want to run it in PvP (unless you're using Impregnable or are some kind of glass canon mobility build) but in PvE it would provide a nice alternative to the current Divines monopoly for DPS and give some nice sustain options for tanks.

Full divines only gives you a bonus of 18 * 7 = 126 bonus recovery if you're using a recovery mundus... and you want the invigorating trait to give 350 of ALL THREE?

Glyphs and Traits are not the same thing.

Why are we comparing Mundus stones to armor traits?

The Mundus stones themselves aren't even balanced and the recovery stones are some of the weakest of the bunch compared to, say, the Shadow, Thief or Lover.

Regarding the status of having all three regens on the Invigorating trait, that is more of a problem with the trait itself since very few builds even WANT to have all three regens buffed to begin with. Most builds only want their main attribute and the others are just along for the ride, adding needlessly to the overall stat density. Only tanks can truly claim to benefit from all three types.

A better solution would be to kill off Nirnhoned and Invigorating and add a 10th trait and then allow for discrete Stam/Mag/Health regen traits rather than the current all regen scheme. Set the maximum value at 338 for a single stat, which is twice the value of a gold recovery glyph but distributed across seven armor pieces (so still less efficient per slot than jewelry).

OR do as someone above mentioned and change Invigorating to be a 1% universal reduction in ability cost. Especially in the current awful sustain era, that would be a godsend and would help break us away from the oppressive False God's gear monoculture.

Solariken

Invigorating

Invigorating would be kinda neat for PvP if Impen weren't so strong.

Royaji

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Invigorating is totally useless as it is currently balanced.

If you wanted to follow the Tristat precedent where you get half of the maximum single-stat bonus for all three stats, that would give us a value of 169 / 2 = ~84 all regen per second. If slotted on all 7 pieces of armor, that would get us ~84 * 7 = ~600 all regen, which is definitely too strong.

If we instead only went with one third of the maximum single-stat bonus, we would get 169 / 3 = ~56 all regen which would yield ~400 all regen if slotted on all pieces. This seems closer to the mark, but perhaps we should round down to an even 50 all regen per piece which results in a maximum value of 350 all regen?

If that still seems high, using 40 all regen would give us a value of 280, which is probably the lowest you would want to go before pushing it back into uselessness.

You still wouldn't want to run it in PvP (unless you're using Impregnable or are some kind of glass canon mobility build) but in PvE it would provide a nice alternative to the current Divines monopoly for DPS and give some nice sustain options for tanks.

Full divines only gives you a bonus of 18 * 7 = 126 bonus recovery if you're using a recovery mundus... and you want the invigorating trait to give 350 of ALL THREE?

Glyphs and Traits are not the same thing.

Regarding the status of having all three regens on the Invigorating trait, that is more of a problem with the trait itself since very few builds even WANT to have all three regens buffed to begin with.

I would say that if impenetrable was removed, invigorating would very quickly become a highly sought after trait in PvP. Some traits are just stuck being "bad" because of how necessary impenetrable is.

MellowMagic

Invigorating

Although its fairly balanced, I'd like to see invigorating to be 13 -15 per piece. It would give invigorating a bigger budget but it would make the trait more desirable. There is a reason most people are voting on it. The extra off regen and health regen would be desirable for pvp and tanks.

ThePedge

Reinforced

Either running 7x Divines or 7x Well-Fitted

driosketch

Nirnhoned

This is a tough choice. If we are talking farming drops, between two like items, I'd keep an invigorating belt over a reinforced one, and reinforced has its uses on other items.

On the other hand, I'd never choose to craft or transmute to invigorating on purpose to wear. (Maybe I'd go with it if I was building some kind of regen hybrid tank build. Of course I could also use Twice Born Star divine for such a build.) That said, outside of a shield, I'm not really using nirn either. And the cost of the trait item means I prefer to save it for crafting research and writs. So nirn gets my vote, but just barely.

barney2525

Ridiculous poll since there are multiple answers to it without the option of selecting them all.

There isn't any specific trait that I ' don't use ' more than the rest of the traits I don't use.

Animal_Mother

Invigorating

It makes me miss “Prosperous”. It really does.

Kadoozy

Invigorating

robpr wrote: »

Invigorating and Nirn are both useless, but Invigorating is clearly winner here.
Heck, even Reinforced can have some uses, if someone dont have jewerly crafting.

Reinforced I believe is only good on heavy chest pieces. Otherwise I'm pretty sure nirn beats it in resists every time. It definitely wins on shields and armor below heavy.

Though I do feel it is redundant to have both reinforced and Nirn. One should probably be changed.

Nord_Raseri

I only use Impen, sturdy, or divines. The rest I do not use.

idk

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Invigorating is totally useless as it is currently balanced.

If you wanted to follow the Tristat precedent where you get half of the maximum single-stat bonus for all three stats, that would give us a value of 169 / 2 = ~84 all regen per second. If slotted on all 7 pieces of armor, that would get us ~84 * 7 = ~600 all regen, which is definitely too strong.

If we instead only went with one third of the maximum single-stat bonus, we would get 169 / 3 = ~56 all regen which would yield ~400 all regen if slotted on all pieces. This seems closer to the mark, but perhaps we should round down to an even 50 all regen per piece which results in a maximum value of 350 all regen?

If that still seems high, using 40 all regen would give us a value of 280, which is probably the lowest you would want to go before pushing it back into uselessness.

You still wouldn't want to run it in PvP (unless you're using Impregnable or are some kind of glass canon mobility build) but in PvE it would provide a nice alternative to the current Divines monopoly for DPS and give some nice sustain options for tanks.

Full divines only gives you a bonus of 18 * 7 = 126 bonus recovery if you're using a recovery mundus... and you want the invigorating trait to give 350 of ALL THREE?

Glyphs and Traits are not the same thing.

Why are we comparing Mundus stones to armor traits?

It seems kind of extremely odd to suggest they are comparing mundus stones to armor when it is clear they are comparing Divines to invigorating. It seems to be an attempt at a distraction.

ExistingRug61

Like most, I don’t currently use anything that isn’t Impenetrable (PvP) or Divines (PvE).

However, this topic got me interested in the relative values of the armor traits so I had a bit more in depth look at it mathematically, comparing them all except training using the standard bonuses that ZOS consider equivalent, via mundus stone values and/or CP bonuses (at 100 points) for cases where there is no equivalent mundus for the trait.

Sure, the argument can be made that the mundus aren't equally powerful, but this is build dependent.
Also, these are the standard equivalence that ZOS have created between the stats and the reason such a baseline is useful is that it shows what you could get from other sources if you swap things around in your build.

Comparing the traits that have a relevant mundus to use for comparison:
Divines
Mundus Value (Any): 7.5%
Invigorating
Relative to Mundus Value (Atronach/Serpent): 3*11/238 = 13.8% (all regens combined)
Alternatively, if you apply the ZOS standard of considering tri values total to be worth 1.5 of a single stat (so divide the above by 1.5). This gives
Relative to Mundus Value: 9.2% (so 1.22x as much as divines)
Infused
Relative to Mundus Value (Mage/Tower): 0.2*350/2028 = 2.5% (small enchant) or 0.2*868/2028 = 8.6% (big enchant) (so 0.34x or 1.14x as much as divines)
Reinforced
Relative to Mundus Value (Lady): 0.16*523/2752 = 3% (light waist) to 0.16*2772/2752 = 16.1% (heavy chest) (so 0.4x to 2.15x as much as divines)
Nirnhoned
Relative to Mundus Value (Lady): 301/2752 = 10.9% (1.46x as much as divines)

For the remaining traits I used CP as the basis for comparison, ie: I compared what the trait gave to what you get for 100 CP in the relevant star. This comparison is a bit less robust as CP is a bit unique and has stats that aren't really available anywhere else, hence using it as a baseline isn't great. But its all we have and the numbers are still interesting.

Divines – relate to CP system by using stats that exist as mundus and CP
Using Penetration (Lover): 0.075*2752 = 206.4, which is 206.4/5280 = 3.9% of a 100CP in a penetration star
Using Armor (Lord): 0.075*2752 = 206.4, which is 206.4/5280 = 3.9% of a 100CP in a armor star
Using Crit Damage (Shadow): 0.075*13% = 0.975%, which is 0.975/25 = 3.9% of a 100CP in a crit damage/healing star
So all cases result in Divines having a relative to 100 CP value: 3.9%
Sturdy
Relative to 100 CP Value (Shadow Ward): 4/25= 16% (~4x as much as divines)
Well Fitted
Relative to 100 CP Value (Sprinter): 5/35= 14.2% (~3.5x as much as divines)
Relative to 100 CP Value (Tumbling): 5/25= 20% (~5x as much as divines)
Impenetrable
Relative to 100 CP Value (Resistant): 258/1650= 15% (almost 4x as much as divines)

Interestingly, divines actually provides the lowest comparative benefit using ZOS’s own stat equivalency (except for the silly cases like using reinforced or infused on small pieces). But the key thing is, it is the only one, apart from infused, that can be used to increase damage, which makes it king for PvE DPS builds.

I am not particularly experience with PvE tanking, but Sturdy seems to come out way in front, being comparatively stronger than anything else that is relevant, giving 4x as much equivalent value as divines whereas other relevant choices are much lower, ie: Reinforced at 2.15x and Invigorating at 1.22x. Although if there are cases that Well fitted is useful, then that is actually numerically better.

Likewise Impen is way ahead for PvP builds. PvP is a case where other traits could be useful depending as almost all the traits give something that is useful depending on your build, but Impen is just way too stat efficient to consider using something else (although, special mention for Well fitted as that is actually numerically stronger but just not as useful for most). Sure there are exceptions like divines glass cannons, but this is making a comparatively huge sacrifice for a tiny gain.

An interesting case to consider of this is crit damage vs crit resistance. In the CP system, you can get +25% crit damage and healing. Likewise you can get 1650 crit resistance, which is equates to 25% crit damage reduction. So these are perfectly balanced, ie: you can use your CP to negate someone else's CP. However, if you consider armor traits you can get +0.975% crit damage bonus from a trait (divines with shadow) or you can get 258 crit resistance, which is 3.9% crit damage reduction. So in this case the reduction is four times as much as the bonus.

I assume no-one really cares that Impen is significantly better than the other options for PvP because everyone can use it. But it does reduce build diversity in armor traits. Hence we end up with basically everyone using Impen in PvP.

Also, side note for those who say they preferred the old Prosperous to Invigorating:
I remember back when this was changed reading someone’s test that actually found that Impen was better than Prosperous if you were farming gold by killing mobs. Because the amount of gold you saved in armor repairs due to Impen was more than the gold gained from Prosperous (especially as most of the time when farming mobs you don’t actually get gold directly as drops, but rather items/mats which you then sell which is not increased by Prosperous). Take this with a grain of salt though, I didn't test it myself but it does seem possible.

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

Nirnhoned

Toss up between Nirnhorned and Invigorating, but I voted Nirn since Reinforced exists which makes Nirn sort of redundant and disappointing.

Septimus_Magna

Invigorating

Invigorating is completely useless because the value is spread over 3 resources.

Nirnhoned is also pretty underwhelming, especially if you compare it to the weapon trait.

Reinforced is also questionable, its only used on the heavy chest piece for tanks.

Hurbster

I don't PvP, so Impenetrable.

CAB_Life

Invigorating

Re: Divines vs Invigorating.

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty. If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

Royaji

CAB_Life wrote: »

Re: Divines vs Invigorating.

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty. If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

So now a class rep is defending a truly unbalanced trait. Ooph.

CAB_Life

Invigorating

Royaji wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Re: Divines vs Invigorating.

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty. If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

So now a class rep is defending a truly unbalanced trait. Ooph.

I’m confused as to what you think I’m defending. Impen is overbudgeted af—no other trait provides as much mitigation in PVP scenarios— and I never suggested it wasn’t. I was talking about the comparatives being made between Divines and Invig. Impen is, however, an example of a desirable trait, which is what this thread is about: ordering things from wanted to not wanted.

Ideally, we should reach a balance with traits where even if things aren’t perfectly, numerically, weighted, they are each situationally useful—and such situations are occurring often enough to warrant their use.

Edit: I’d also add that it’s easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to discussions online and another matter entirely to stop, think, and engage in reasonable discourse with someone who may (or may not, you might find) have a different opinion than you. If you have a question for me, pose it as a question rather than an attack and you’ll find I’m an amiable and chatty guy! Wishing you the best in your adventures in Tamriel.

Royaji

CAB_Life wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Re: Divines vs Invigorating.

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty. If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

So now a class rep is defending a truly unbalanced trait. Ooph.

I’m confused as to what you think I’m defending. Impen is overbudgeted af—no other trait provides as much mitigation in PVP scenarios— and I never suggested it wasn’t. I was talking about the comparatives being made between Divines and Invig. Impen is, however, an example of a desirable trait, which is what this thread is about: ordering things from wanted to not wanted.

Ideally, we should reach a balance with traits where even if things aren’t perfectly, numerically, weighted, they are each situationally useful—and such situations are occurring often enough to warrant their use.

Edit: I’d also add that it’s easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to discussions online and another matter entirely to stop, think and engage in reasonable discourse with someone who may (or may not, you might find) have a different opinion than you. If you have a question for me, pose it as a question rather than an attack and you’ll find I’m an amiable and chatty guy! Wishing you the best in your adventure in Tamriel.

These are your words:

CAB_Life wrote: »

If you’re a one trick pony, you should be very good at that one trick

Just because a trait is good at one thing does not mean it should be good to the point of being unbalanced. In reality a lot of traits would be used in PvP a lot more (including invigorating) if impen wasn't as mandatory.

kathandira

Invigorating

RPGplayer13579 wrote: »

Which Armor Trait do you never use? Which one would you want to be replaced? And what would you like in its place?

(Edited after reading the thread and putting more thought into it)

I have a different idea. Change the way Invig works.

Provide bonus percentage to recovery of your highest resource.

CAB_Life

Invigorating

Royaji wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Re: Divines vs Invigorating.

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty. If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

So now a class rep is defending a truly unbalanced trait. Ooph.

I’m confused as to what you think I’m defending. Impen is overbudgeted af—no other trait provides as much mitigation in PVP scenarios— and I never suggested it wasn’t. I was talking about the comparatives being made between Divines and Invig. Impen is, however, an example of a desirable trait, which is what this thread is about: ordering things from wanted to not wanted.

Ideally, we should reach a balance with traits where even if things aren’t perfectly, numerically, weighted, they are each situationally useful—and such situations are occurring often enough to warrant their use.

Edit: I’d also add that it’s easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to discussions online and another matter entirely to stop, think and engage in reasonable discourse with someone who may (or may not, you might find) have a different opinion than you. If you have a question for me, pose it as a question rather than an attack and you’ll find I’m an amiable and chatty guy! Wishing you the best in your adventure in Tamriel.

These are your words:

CAB_Life wrote: »

If you’re a one trick pony, you should be very good at that one trick

Just because a trait is good at one thing does not mean it should be good to the point of being unbalanced. In reality a lot of traits would be used in PvP a lot more (including invigorating) if impen wasn't as mandatory.

But I still need you to illuminate the part where I’m “defending” Impen or suggesting that it is perfectly balanced. I’m using it as an example of a highly desired trait, which it is, irrefutably. Impen is “very good” at what it does, that is factually correct. Further to that and as elaborated in our exchange it’s too good at what it does, if anything.

Edit: I think in discussing this further, we’re getting into the “drop the ceiling or raise the floor” territory. Do we nerf the overperforming traits (drop the ceiling) or buff the underperforming ones (raise the floor)? That’s a separate discussion to be had that goes outside the baseline comparatives of what is desirable/ not desirable.

code65536

Nirnhoned

CAB_Life wrote: »

Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty.

Yes... and no. Yes, you can change mundus stones freely in theory. But in practice, how often do you change mundus stones without also changing what gear you wear? Generally speaking, there's a mundus stone that people will pick for whatever content they are doing. And there's some gear set that they'll use for that content.

CAB_Life

Invigorating

code65536 wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty.

Yes... and no. Yes, you can change mundus stones freely in theory. But in practice, how often do you change mundus stones without also changing what gear you wear? Generally speaking, there's a mundus stone that people will pick for whatever content they are doing. And there's some gear set that they'll use for that content.

I mean, most guild houses do have all twelve mundus’s though. The stat boosts aren’t all comparable, either. Max resource boosts your damage/ heals and baseline (gas tank) sustain/ reserve.

Invigorating is definitely in a weird place and has been ever since the Prosperous switch. If the goal is sustain, they could look at cost reduction. Say 0.5% or so per piece? At least that wouldn’t cut into raw regen numbers from Mundus and it’s not too encroaching on the reductions you get from armor. What do you think?

Speaking of gear and builds, we need an in-game build swapper already to accommodate the various play styles and roles.

kylewwefan

Nirnhoned

So, invigorating is killing the poll whether people understand the balance aspect or not.

But this seems to majorly take away the aspect of my choice nirnhoned. It doesn’t make sense why the rarest trait to learn, that drops approximately nowhere could be so worthless in value. Hmm.


This poll reminds me of a season of some singing show..got talent or idol; this guy that was meh kept winning by popular votes, but has the talent to go approximately nowhere.

The host gets very frustrated because the winner (invigorating) keeps overshadowing the potential talent that could be an actual superstar. Something that people would actually want to see outside of the show or poll as it were.

Noldornir

Invigorating

Invigorating is not keeping up the pace; problem could be solved by increasing only one resource (biggest pool) regen by ~50 or so but, as is, it's giving you almost nothing since it gives 3 different regen buffs (but you really want/need one)

kathandira

Invigorating

kylewwefan wrote: »

So, invigorating is killing the poll whether people understand the balance aspect or not.

But this seems to majorly take away the aspect of my choice nirnhoned. It doesn’t make sense why the rarest trait to learn, that drops approximately nowhere could be so worthless in value. Hmm.


This poll reminds me of a season of some singing show..got talent or idol; this guy that was meh kept winning by popular votes, but has the talent to go approximately nowhere.

The host gets very frustrated because the winner (invigorating) keeps overshadowing the potential talent that could be an actual superstar. Something that people would actually want to see outside of the show or poll as it were.

While Nirn is a pretty terrible Trait for armor pieces, it is one you basically have to have opt in to use. You have to jump through hoops to put it on a piece of armor. So even though it is bad, it isn't shoved down your throat like Invig is.

code65536

Nirnhoned

Noldornir wrote: »

Invigorating is not keeping up the pace; problem could be solved by increasing only one resource (biggest pool) regen by ~50 or so but, as is, it's giving you almost nothing since it gives 3 different regen buffs (but you really want/need one)

So you want 350 regen, before buffs, for 7 pieces of gear... Mmmhmm...

x48rph

Invigorating

robpr wrote: »

Invigorating and Nirn are both useless, but Invigorating is clearly winner here.
Heck, even Reinforced can have some uses, if someone dont have jewerly crafting.

^This

karekiz

Nirnhoned

This ^ for me.

Invig needs a boost. I would like to see Nirn redesigned though as the armor just feels a bit cloned from reinforced.

kathandira

Invigorating

kylewwefan wrote: »

So, invigorating is killing the poll whether people understand the balance aspect or not.

But this seems to majorly take away the aspect of my choice nirnhoned. It doesn’t make sense why the rarest trait to learn, that drops approximately nowhere could be so worthless in value. Hmm.


This poll reminds me of a season of some singing show..got talent or idol; this guy that was meh kept winning by popular votes, but has the talent to go approximately nowhere.

The host gets very frustrated because the winner (invigorating) keeps overshadowing the potential talent that could be an actual superstar. Something that people would actually want to see outside of the show or poll as it were.

code65536 wrote: »

Noldornir wrote: »

Invigorating is not keeping up the pace; problem could be solved by increasing only one resource (biggest pool) regen by ~50 or so but, as is, it's giving you almost nothing since it gives 3 different regen buffs (but you really want/need one)

So you want 350 regen, before buffs, for 7 pieces of gear... Mmmhmm...

What could be changed to make Invigorating more appealing? I personally like the idea of changing it to a percentage increase to the highest resource pool. Doing it that way, it could vary based on how much recovery you have.

If it followed Divines at 7.5% On Gold Gear, that would be 52.5% increase in recovery. At 2,000 recovery before the trait, it would be an increase of 1,050. That could be too much. Even at 1,400 Recovery which is a bit more common, it would be a 735 recovery increase. So 7.5% seems to me to be a bit too high. Perhaps 4% at Gold could be more balanced. What do you think of this idea? I'm trying to think of something that could have the potential of being desirable, but not overly so.