Which Armor Trait do you Never use?

MaleAmazon

Training

Invigorating is only bad because PvP is burst. IIRC when you do the maths on invigorating it isn´t terribad. Sorry if this was disproven in the thread, I am tired and can´t be bothered to read all of it.

Also it makes me want to create an all-invigorating build

Personally I don´t use training trait. The levelling bottleneck, so to speak, is about getting enough skillpoints anyway. The ZOS XP scrolls that fill up my mailbox every few weeks does the trick if I need to level faster.

But really, I am a simple man. Raw power is usually the best. Infused on head, chest, legs, shield. Divines on others. All divines on TBS gear.

I don´t need impen. I have free resurrect.

BigBadVolk

Invigorating

invi is the lest but I use inf, div, impen, and training (for leveling)

whitecrow

Training

The only one I use is Divines, but I would never use Training as I have more experience scrolls than I know what to do with.

NordSwordnBoard

Invigorating

I use Nirn on a shield if I want more resistance - pretty sure you get more total than reinforced?

Stx

Impenetrable

I don't really pvp, so impen is useless to me.

Every other trait has its uses whether it's pure dps, tanking, or a solo build. (Those who think invigorating and nirnhoned are useless don't understand the stat value they provide on small armor pieces)

tmbrinks

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Invigorating is only bad because PvP is burst. IIRC when you do the maths on invigorating it isn´t terribad. Sorry if this was disproven in the thread, I am tired and can´t be bothered to read all of it.

Also it makes me want to create an all-invigorating build

Personally I don´t use training trait. The levelling bottleneck, so to speak, is about getting enough skillpoints anyway. The ZOS XP scrolls that fill up my mailbox every few weeks does the trick if I need to level faster.

But really, I am a simple man. Raw power is usually the best. Infused on head, chest, legs, shield. Divines on others. All divines on TBS gear.

I don´t need impen. I have free resurrect.

Nah, definitely not disproven in the thread... been shown to be true multiple times in fact. Yet there are people still calling for a 300% increase (or more!) in what invigorating gives you.

El_Borracho

Invigorating

Ornate is even better. Means I'm wearing expensive clothing. Be gone, filthy commoners.

El_Borracho

Invigorating

whitecrow wrote: »

The only one I use is Divines, but I would never use Training as I have more experience scrolls than I know what to do with.

Use Training and scrolls together to make the grind faster. Divines on a 1-50 character is near useless

butterrum222

Invigorating

Bring back prosperous!

tmbrinks

El_Borracho wrote: »

whitecrow wrote: »

The only one I use is Divines, but I would never use Training as I have more experience scrolls than I know what to do with.

Use Training and scrolls together to make the grind faster. Divines on a 1-50 character is near useless

2 hours.

Master writs.

Level 1-50.

No traits needed.

Cavedog

I don't use invigorating, reinforced, and well-fitted, ever. Sturdy is only for small pieces on tanks, and nirn is only for weapons.

El_Borracho

Invigorating

tmbrinks wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

whitecrow wrote: »

The only one I use is Divines, but I would never use Training as I have more experience scrolls than I know what to do with.

Use Training and scrolls together to make the grind faster. Divines on a 1-50 character is near useless

2 hours.

Master writs.

Level 1-50.

No traits needed.

Impressive. I usually take the route of:

(1) Wait for extra XP event

(2) build new character with training gear

(3) use scroll

(4) Run ragged doing overland content while collecting skyshards

(5) Do the main story quest in between

Obviously takes longer, but I might try your method next time. Biggest problem is that stupid mount training

idk

Royaji wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Re: Divines vs Invigorating.

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty. If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

So now a class rep is defending a truly unbalanced trait. Ooph.

They aren't defending jack. They are merely pointing out an actual fact that invigorating is not trash as some have stated. At least they are not tossing opinions as though they are facts

iiYuki

- Invigorating feels like a pvp trait but not as good as impenetrable.
- Nirnhoned is good if you use poisons on your weapons but is too expensive for the little bit of extra dps it provides., - -Reinforced is clearly a tank trait but there are much easier ways of getting physical resist or raw damage decrease and you might as well go for infused on a health enchant.
- Well-Fitted feels like a waste, you can reduce dodge roll and sprint far easier with green CP than wasting it on armour.

idk

kathandira wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

So, invigorating is killing the poll whether people understand the balance aspect or not.

But this seems to majorly take away the aspect of my choice nirnhoned. It doesn’t make sense why the rarest trait to learn, that drops approximately nowhere could be so worthless in value. Hmm.


This poll reminds me of a season of some singing show..got talent or idol; this guy that was meh kept winning by popular votes, but has the talent to go approximately nowhere.

The host gets very frustrated because the winner (invigorating) keeps overshadowing the potential talent that could be an actual superstar. Something that people would actually want to see outside of the show or poll as it were.

code65536 wrote: »

Noldornir wrote: »

Invigorating is not keeping up the pace; problem could be solved by increasing only one resource (biggest pool) regen by ~50 or so but, as is, it's giving you almost nothing since it gives 3 different regen buffs (but you really want/need one)

So you want 350 regen, before buffs, for 7 pieces of gear... Mmmhmm...

What could be changed to make Invigorating more appealing? I personally like the idea of changing it to a percentage increase to the highest resource pool. Doing it that way, it could vary based on how much recovery you have.

I don't think it really needs to be made more appealing.

We have and will continue to have specific traits that are preferred/BiS and that will change based on the activity. That means there is always likely going to be a trait or trait that is less utilized and far from desired in most cases. It's predecessor was truly worthless as the reduced repair cost of inpen was more valuable that the small bit of extra gold drops.

Contaminate

Invigorating

code65536 wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Invigorating will end up being voted “most useless”, without contest.

It’s value needs to be tripled—at least—to have any worth per piece.

@/CAB_Life It is disappointing to see that a Class Rep would comment on combat balance without first looking at what the current balance point is. You want us to believe that 33 recovery of each resource per armor slot is going to make Invigorating balanced when Divines will grant you only 18 recovery of a single resource?

Invigorating is being voted on as the worst because people never bothered to look at how it actually compares to other traits. I expected more from a Class Rep, frankly.

You’re ascribing power based on spreadsheet calculations instead of actual usage.

Invigorating is not useful. It’s doesn’t have literally 0% use, but that doesn’t mean you’re not wasting two parts of the trait in a best case scenario.

A tank can’t make use of the stam regen due to how blocking works, if they’re a vamp which most are, the health regen is wasted.

As a mag dps, health regen is pointless as usual, stam regen isn’t needed.

As stam dps, there’s no mag costs to need the mag regen, health regen as usual is pointless.

If it’s gonna be made useful in any way, it should give 33 regen to your highest stat. Spreadsheet balancing is the reason we lost all the fun play styles, people don’t really like it because they’re done from a lack of context and with little to no regard to how skills/gear/traits are actually used

Royaji

idk wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Re: Divines vs Invigorating.

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty. If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

So now a class rep is defending a truly unbalanced trait. Ooph.

They aren't defending jack. They are merely pointing out an actual fact that invigorating is not trash as some have stated. At least they are not tossing opinions as though they are facts

Are we reading the same comment? I would say he is actually trying to disprove the fact that invigorating is not trash number-wise based on the comparison with divines. I can't interpret:

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty

in any other way.

Also if you are saying:

If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

you are stating that "one-trick pony" traits (read, all traits except divines) should (his word, not mine) be OP. He specifically brings up impen as an example. How is that not defending impen being "overbudgeted"?

whitecrow

Training

El_Borracho wrote: »

whitecrow wrote: »

The only one I use is Divines, but I would never use Training as I have more experience scrolls than I know what to do with.

Use Training and scrolls together to make the grind faster. Divines on a 1-50 character is near useless

I used Divines on my maxed main. My 1-50 characters use whatever they find.

kathandira

Invigorating

idk wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

So, invigorating is killing the poll whether people understand the balance aspect or not.

But this seems to majorly take away the aspect of my choice nirnhoned. It doesn’t make sense why the rarest trait to learn, that drops approximately nowhere could be so worthless in value. Hmm.


This poll reminds me of a season of some singing show..got talent or idol; this guy that was meh kept winning by popular votes, but has the talent to go approximately nowhere.

The host gets very frustrated because the winner (invigorating) keeps overshadowing the potential talent that could be an actual superstar. Something that people would actually want to see outside of the show or poll as it were.

code65536 wrote: »

Noldornir wrote: »

Invigorating is not keeping up the pace; problem could be solved by increasing only one resource (biggest pool) regen by ~50 or so but, as is, it's giving you almost nothing since it gives 3 different regen buffs (but you really want/need one)

So you want 350 regen, before buffs, for 7 pieces of gear... Mmmhmm...

What could be changed to make Invigorating more appealing? I personally like the idea of changing it to a percentage increase to the highest resource pool. Doing it that way, it could vary based on how much recovery you have.

I don't think it really needs to be made more appealing.

We have and will continue to have specific traits that are preferred/BiS and that will change based on the activity. That means there is always likely going to be a trait or trait that is less utilized and far from desired in most cases. It's predecessor was truly worthless as the reduced repair cost of inpen was more valuable that the small bit of extra gold drops.

In regards to PvE, I'd love to see more traits used. Currently, there are 2 Armor Traits that are used primarily.

Tank - Sturdy
Everyone Else - Divines

Of coarse, BiS will be BiS. But i'd love to see some variation between different classes, roles, and specs as to what the BiS Trait could be.

kathandira

Invigorating

Contaminate wrote: »

As a mag dps, health regen is pointless as usual, stam regen isn’t needed.

As stam dps, there’s no mag costs to need the mag regen, health regen as usual is pointless.

That isn't exactly true.

For Mag users, Blocking, Breaking Free, and Roll Dodging cost Magicka. There are situations where you could be out of Stam when you need it. Though this is more situational.

For Stam users, Soul Splitting Trap, which is a BiS skill still for a few specs uses Magicka. There are also certain other skills that may cost Magicka for certain stam builds as well.

CAB_Life

Invigorating

Royaji wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Re: Divines vs Invigorating.

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty. If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

So now a class rep is defending a truly unbalanced trait. Ooph.

They aren't defending jack. They are merely pointing out an actual fact that invigorating is not trash as some have stated. At least they are not tossing opinions as though they are facts

Are we reading the same comment? I would say he is actually trying to disprove the fact that invigorating is not trash number-wise based on the comparison with divines. I can't interpret:

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty

in any other way.

Also if you are saying:

If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

you are stating that "one-trick pony" traits (read, all traits except divines) should (his word, not mine) be OP. He specifically brings up impen as an example. How is that not defending impen being "overbudgeted"?

Last time I’m going to respond to you as you’re being willfully obtuse. “you are stating that "one-trick pony" traits (read, all traits except divines) should (his word, not mine) be OP. He specifically brings up impen as an example. How is that not defending impen being "overbudgeted"?”

I did not state that all traits ‘should’ be OP, that is entirely your inference. I stated that Impen was a highly sought after trait and that it fulfilled its one purpose very well (too well). I suggested that traits that do ‘one thing’ should likewise be desireable and should fulfill their purposes well. I did not say all traits should be OP. I did not even say that any traits should be OP—you created that entire dialog. Now the matter of Impen overperforming, which I have repeatedly stated is true, is mutually exclusive from its desireability, which is what this thread is about. Full stop. The end. I’m not sure why you’re bandwagoning on about something that we’re in agreement over: Impen is overperforming. We agree. We agreed as soon as the matter was raised. Move on. I even suggested discussing Invigorating’s balance, weight and merits in a subsequent reply, which you seem to have ignored.

I don’t understand people like you who seem determined to avoid any kind of stimulating conversation and are content just belabouring the same points over and over again, seemingly to produce only discord. I don’t work that way, sorry. I’d rather have productive chats. So take whatever other interpretation you need, but my responses are plain as day and I believe we’re done with our conversation.

Contaminate

Invigorating

kathandira wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

As a mag dps, health regen is pointless as usual, stam regen isn’t needed.

As stam dps, there’s no mag costs to need the mag regen, health regen as usual is pointless.

That isn't exactly true.

For Mag users, Blocking, Breaking Free, and Roll Dodging cost Magicka. There are situations where you could be out of Stam when you need it. Though this is more situational.

For Stam users, Soul Splitting Trap, which is a BiS skill still for a few specs uses Magicka. There are also certain other skills that may cost Magicka for certain stam builds as well.

When I say no mag/stam costs, I mean no significant costs, certainly nothing that would be impacted in any significant way by a 3-4% increase of offstat regen.

gp1680

Invigorating

Sadly, ZOS is more likely to look at this poll and figure out a way to nerf the well-used traits, instead of buffing the under-used ones. It’s their track record you know.

Starlock

Impenetrable

Order of trait preference: divines/infused > reinforced/well-fitted > invigorating/sturdy > training/impenetrable

Royaji

CAB_Life wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Re: Divines vs Invigorating.

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty. If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

So now a class rep is defending a truly unbalanced trait. Ooph.

They aren't defending jack. They are merely pointing out an actual fact that invigorating is not trash as some have stated. At least they are not tossing opinions as though they are facts

Are we reading the same comment? I would say he is actually trying to disprove the fact that invigorating is not trash number-wise based on the comparison with divines. I can't interpret:

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty

in any other way.

Also if you are saying:

If you’re a one trick pony (Invigorating), you should be very good at that one trick—see Impen.

you are stating that "one-trick pony" traits (read, all traits except divines) should (his word, not mine) be OP. He specifically brings up impen as an example. How is that not defending impen being "overbudgeted"?

I even suggested discussing Invigorating’s balance, weight and merits in a subsequent reply, which you seem to have ignored.

Cool. Let's try being constructive.

You consider comparing invigorating to divines (11/11/11 recovery vs 18 with a recovery mundus) not relevant since divines gives you flexibility.

CAB_Life wrote: »

Re: Divines vs Invigorating.

The comparison is fallacious at best as Invigorating is good at one thing and one thing only: sustain. Divines can be used for a multitude of character enhancing effects and you can change them on a whim without any penalty.

I'm not interpreting anything wrong here, right? You have a weird way with words sometimes

Let's compare Invigorating to something else then. Say... infused? It also only does one thing. We can do some simple math on a napkin and apply ZOS's favorite set-bonus equivalent approach. Let's go with Prismatic enchants too since it's the most stat-dense one to give infused the best chance.

From 7 pieces of infused on your armor with 7 prismatic enchants you will get 398 mag and stam and 437 health. Which is slightly above 1/3 of each respective set bonus (1096 for stam/mag and 1206 for health). So 3x 1/3 of a set bonus from 7 pieces of infused gear.

7 pieces of invigorating give you 77 recovery to every stat. This is slightly less than 2/3 of every recovery set bonus (129 each). So a bit less than 3x 2/3 of a set bonus from invigorating. Numerically twice as much as infused.

The situation is even more bleak when you try working with single stat enchants since you will only get ~800 stam/mag from 7 pieces of infused there.

So why is numerically superior invigorating (we have now established that compared to two other traits) has a commanding lead in this poll? Simple. The only place where you might want tri-stat recovery is PvP. Which "overbudgeted" trait "rules" PvP and dwarfs every other potentially useful trait (well-fited, sturdy, invigorating)? Impenetrable. The only reason why invigorating is not a desirable trait is the opportunity cost of running highly desired impenetrable in its place.

And you know what? That's fine. Some traits are just bound to being less desirable. ZOS is not creative enough to design encounters and playstyles varied enough to make several traits viable for different builds. We will end up with the same old whack-a-mole balancing where one trait is nerfed and the next best thing takes its place ad infinitum. Better they don't touch somethign that more or less works.

All I want to say is that those calls to make invigorating something like 33 ( ) or even 80 recovery of every stat per piece are completely unrealistic. And as code65536 said,

code65536 wrote: »

The problem with Invigorating is that it spells out exactly how little you're getting from it. That's why it seems bad. But in reality, all armor traits are pretty muted in their effect.

YandereGirlfriend

Invigorating

I would love to see the internal numbers on how frequently Invigorating is chosen by actual players.

There are probably some lowbie questers running around in found gear before they reach CP, but outside of that incidental use case, I would highly doubt that Invigorating reaches even 1% usage on equipped gear (and even that is probably a place-holder before you can Transmute it).

And that would tell us EVERYTHING we needed to know about the perceived strength and desirability of the trait.

It frankly does not matter what the spreadsheet says about its overall stat density if real-world players cannot be induced to actually use the trait.

dazee

Impenetrable

I do use impen.. rarely. I'd use it more if BG werent a hot mess of one team stomping the other in a completely lopsided unfair "battle"

Royaji

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would love to see the internal numbers on how frequently Invigorating is chosen by actual players.

There are probably some lowbie questers running around in found gear before they reach CP, but outside of that incidental use case, I would highly doubt that Invigorating reaches even 1% usage on equipped gear (and even that is probably a place-holder before you can Transmute it).

And that would tell us EVERYTHING we needed to know about the perceived strength and desirability of the trait.

It frankly does not matter what the spreadsheet says about its overall stat density if real-world players cannot be induced to actually use the trait.

You know which trait will surely be below invigorating on this "frequency of use" list? Nirnhoned. Because it isn't even used as place-holder (since it does not drop on 99% of the sets) and no newbie will be using it either.

YandereGirlfriend

Invigorating

Royaji wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would love to see the internal numbers on how frequently Invigorating is chosen by actual players.

There are probably some lowbie questers running around in found gear before they reach CP, but outside of that incidental use case, I would highly doubt that Invigorating reaches even 1% usage on equipped gear (and even that is probably a place-holder before you can Transmute it).

And that would tell us EVERYTHING we needed to know about the perceived strength and desirability of the trait.

It frankly does not matter what the spreadsheet says about its overall stat density if real-world players cannot be induced to actually use the trait.

You know which trait will surely be below invigorating on this "frequency of use" list? Nirnhoned. Because it isn't even used as place-holder (since it does not drop on 99% of the sets) and no newbie will be using it either.

And that's a good reason why BOTH of them should be either scrapped and replaced or buffed to the point where people will willingly choose to include them in builds.

Sylvermynx

Impenetrable

No pvp for me, so no need for impen. I don't use well-fitted much either. Right now, my CP girls have Divines on armor; robust on jewelry; nirnhoned, sharpened, infused on weapons. DW/bow stamdens.

The lowbies use whatever they find, preferably set pieces from chests/Psijic portals.